Author Topic: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy  (Read 40963 times)

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #80 on: April 22, 2015, 05:23:33 PM »
I am suprised Italy and EU are getting away with murder. The notion that human traffickers are to blame doesn't wash. I think Australia have done a commendable job considering they vet those boats and send them to papau nee quinea. I do not care if they never reach Australia..but at least nobody dies.
Poor choice of terms. The word evokes negative feelings .. like screening for Ebola, no!

Usually when you want only a certain number, there is a criteria which is developed and largely followed. One would need to examine every applicant to determine if he / she meets the criteria set for selection.

We have to do that often in Humanitarian Disasters to save as many lives as possible. In such cases we asses vulnerability. That means children, disabled, child headed households, women, the sick etc come first.

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #81 on: April 22, 2015, 05:26:40 PM »
Asking Africa to do something when the guy has a bucket list of 1 million items is plain laughable.

You might consider it laughable, but I don't see anyone else doing that much to help; that is partly why we are having this debate.    In the long run, Africa will have to do something; otherwise not much will change.
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Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #82 on: April 22, 2015, 05:28:45 PM »
EU and Western world will do something. Unless they've gone crazy.And they haven't. We just need to call them out.Africa just has too much problems to take on more responsibility of tracking down traffickers and monitoring their borders. This is either US or EU or UN or China.
You might consider it laughable, but I don't see anyone else doing that much to help; that is partly why we are having this debate.    In the long run, Africa will have to do something; otherwise not much will change.

Offline Omollo

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #83 on: April 22, 2015, 05:29:43 PM »
Italy has some "deniability". She went against the entire EU in keeping the rescue boats running - though at a reduced scale. The  EU deliberately cut down on rescue boats while deliberately knowing that it would lead to deaths.
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #84 on: April 22, 2015, 05:30:55 PM »
Let hope these 900 and 350 death will haunt them back to drawing board. These are needless death. I suspect these guys might even be drowning these boats. I once watched a documentary where Italian Immigration police have very strict quotas on illegals who land and get processed..for someone who will be fired...some of them can even drown boats.

And let us face it..Mediterranean sea is one of the world MOST peaceful sea that people were using rafters 3,000 yrs ago to cross.

The deaths are really fishy...even a leaky rickety boat should be able to cross from tunisia to italy...there is barely a tide in that sea.

Italy has some "deniability". She went against the entire EU in keeping the rescue boats running - though at a reduced scale. The  EU deliberately cut down on rescue boats while deliberately knowing that it would lead to deaths.

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #85 on: April 22, 2015, 05:31:21 PM »
Poor choice of terms. The word evokes negative feelings .. like screening for Ebola, no!

No, there was no negative feeling on my part.    My question has to do with screening, say, people who are purely economic refugees.   Let's say they are screened, and it is confirmed that they are indeed poor, ill-educated, unskilled, with few prospects in their countries, etc.   Then what?    Do they get allowed in?   
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Offline Omollo

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #86 on: April 22, 2015, 05:32:52 PM »
Egypt just sent warships to Yemen to fight and cause more refugees. Israel has an navy as has Sudan, Kenya, South Africa, Tunisia, Algeria and Morroco. Nigerian warships are used to smuggle oil and arms. Why have they not done anything?

We have soldiers who wake up in the morning eat and then sleep.

Asking Africa to do something when the guy has a bucket list of 1 million items is plain laughable.

You might consider it laughable, but I don't see anyone else doing that much to help; that is partly why we are having this debate.    In the long run, Africa will have to do something; otherwise not much will change.
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #87 on: April 22, 2015, 05:36:11 PM »
This is akin to pirates off somalia...the best our or africa navy can do is to accept to take in refugees as prisoners (which is problem considering many of them are running away from Africa)...running those warship day in day out..looking out for boats or pirates is not cheap. It had to take US, Chinese and EU to stop somali pirates.
Egypt just sent warships to Yemen to fight and cause more refugees. Israel has an navy as has Sudan, Kenya, South Africa, Tunisia, Algeria and Morroco. Nigerian warships are used to smuggle oil and arms. Why have they not done anything?

We have soldiers who wake up in the morning eat and then sleep.


Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #88 on: April 22, 2015, 05:38:47 PM »
Egypt just sent warships to Yemen to fight and cause more refugees. Israel has an navy as has Sudan, Kenya, South Africa, Tunisia, Algeria and Morroco. Nigerian warships are used to smuggle oil and arms. Why have they not done anything?

Why indeed.    It appears that they are not entirely without resources.    Perhaps even as we rail against European racism we should also be asking our people that very question and denouncing their failure to do anything.
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Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #89 on: April 22, 2015, 05:45:01 PM »
Australian Racist Prime Minister just offered advice to Europe on how to deal with non-white immigrants: Stop the Boats
The irony of a likely descendant of a group convicts who wiped out local natives(they sent Tasmanians to extinction) making the suggestion on a question that does not concern his country is not lost on me.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #90 on: April 22, 2015, 09:34:36 PM »
EU and Western world will do something.

Yes, they will do something.  The questions are: (a) what and (b) if the "what" will have a long-term positive effect.   
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Offline Omollo

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #91 on: April 22, 2015, 10:23:19 PM »
Poverty should be included in the grounds for asylum. Most of the poverty in developing countries is politically motivated anyway. We can discuss who by if you like.

I could do a Post doctoral thesis on that with minimal sweat, if any. I am demanding a review of all current conventional thinking on the asylum institution. As you can clearly poverty is killing as many people as EJK, Boko Haram and Al Shabaab in Kenya and Nigeria alone. It is about facing the reality.

Besides if the idea is to repopulate those Ghost towns in Italy and US (among other places in the West) able bodied, law abiding people are best suited for that. Not that those able bodied with criminal records have no parallels in History: I mean as Termie reminds us, most Australians are descendants of some of the most violent criminals that this world has ever hosted! They had to chose between the hangman's noose and life in as a migrant in Australia.

Look at it from a different perspective: The West owes Africa. While they migrated on migrant ships to America, the blacks came on slave ships. 15 million Africans per European country (on average) appears a reasonable quarter. The Western would be welcome to equally make use of the African quarters and move some of their citizens who need the "Summer" African climate. It will not be for free. The UN Body would be more like a bourse only we shall exchange people
Poor choice of terms. The word evokes negative feelings .. like screening for Ebola, no!

No, there was no negative feeling on my part.    My question has to do with screening, say, people who are purely economic refugees.   Let's say they are screened, and it is confirmed that they are indeed poor, ill-educated, unskilled, with few prospects in their countries, etc.   Then what?    Do they get allowed in?   
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #92 on: April 22, 2015, 11:18:31 PM »
Poverty should be included in the grounds for asylum. Most of the poverty in developing countries is politically motivated anyway. We can discuss who by if you like.

I could do a Post doctoral thesis on that with minimal sweat, if any. I am demanding a review of all current conventional thinking on the asylum institution. As you can clearly poverty is killing as many people as EJK, Boko Haram and Al Shabaab in Kenya and Nigeria alone. It is about facing the reality.

Besides if the idea is to repopulate those Ghost towns in Italy and US (among other places in the West) able bodied, law abiding people are best suited for that. Not that those able bodied with criminal records have no parallels in History: I mean as Termie reminds us, most Australians are descendants of some of the most violent criminals that this world has ever hosted! They had to chose between the hangman's noose and life in as a migrant in Australia.

Look at it from a different perspective: The West owes Africa. While they migrated on migrant ships to America, the blacks came on slave ships. 15 million Africans per European country (on average) appears a reasonable quarter. The Western would be welcome to equally make use of the African quarters and move some of their citizens who need the "Summer" African climate. It will not be for free. The UN Body would be more like a bourse only we shall exchange people

Omollo: 

I have no "fundamental" problem with any of these ideas; I just wonder how they would work.   In fact, I note that the Italian Prime Minister has in fact just tossed out the idea of some such camps in parts of Africa.  I would have the same questions.   Specifically, the initial ideas would involve something like working with the UN to determine "genuine refugees".   That sort of language generally excludes, for example,  the Nigerians that you mentioned---simple economic refugees.   

Europe has certainly exploited Africa for a long, long time; so one may argue that Africans have every right to go there and get back some of it.   I have no issues with such a view.   Nor do I have any issues with the idea that both Africans and the Westerners would be better off if, say, vigorous Africans were to populate ghost towns in Italy, down-and-out parts of Northern England, the Detroits of the USA, and so forth.   Even the "World Human Bourse" and poverty as grounds for asylum can be imagined.

My "problem" is this: I don't see any of that happening.   I don't see any Western country---and hardly any other country---opening its borders to all comers solely on the basis that they are "able bodied, law abiding people".  What's more, I don't see that changing solely on the basis that racism is to be condemned, there are "historical debts" of exploitation, and so forth.  That being so, I prefer to focus on other approaches, even while appreciating all the good points made in other respects.

Regarding poverty:  Here is something you wrote a few "postings" ago:

Quote
The large number of Nigerians among the migrants is enough to support that point. Nigeria is not poor. It is a highly unequal society.

(1) Folks like Pundit might say that Africans cannot be expected to fix this and that while they have so many problems, but who, then, is supposed to fix the problem of such inequities? 

(Pundit is, of course, a "special case": Elsewhere on Nipate, he has stated that Africa is doing just fine---look at economic growth rates and other indicators---and,  oddly enough, that most Africans suffer from self-inflicted wounds that they must fix for themselves without relying on governments, that fixing a place like Kenya just requires simple Mutua-like ideas, dot dot dot.   First-Class Confusion.)

(2) If one is to be objective, then one ought to look at it from both sides.   Should a European country allow any number of fleeing Nigerians as long as they are "able bodied, law abiding people"?   One may argue "YES", on any number of grounds.  But the hard, human fact is that people are going to say, "Nigeria is not poor; you folks just need to stop fucking up". 

So, even as we imagine the most "progressive" solutions, we are living in the here-and-now, and imagination does not make the cold shower of reality any warmer.   

Quote
15 million Africans per European country (on average) appears a reasonable quarter. The Western would be welcome to equally make use of the African quarters and move some of their citizens who need the "Summer" African climate.

An excellent idea.   When do you suppose we would see the start of this?
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
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Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #93 on: April 23, 2015, 04:16:45 AM »
I see you're now busy stalking me. Nothing I have written is confusing. Just apply your brain if any. Africa has been growing. Africa can grow more. That doesn't mean Africa need to be part of every solution including human trafficking targeting European borders. That remain squarely a Europe problem.

You main problem is that your think  because Africans are dying; so Africans need to be involved either as AU or Africa gov. I see human beings needing to do something about fellow human being sufferings. The EU leadership have to do this. And the reason..this is humanitarian crisis at the gates of EU..not an African crisis. EU leadership have to stop cowering to racist right wing and enact progressive immigration policies that treat all refugees fairly.

You can read Omollo for progressive ideas..if you can get past your defeatist attitude that racism has won and we should all become racist. That EU won't probably do nothing because those dying are Africans. What bollocks is that.

This issue would be an issue whether the refugees drowning were Chinese or Latinos...or Africans.


(1) Folks like Pundit might say that Africans cannot be expected to fix this and that while they have so many problems, but who, then, is supposed to fix the problem of such inequities? 


(Pundit is, of course, a "special case": Elsewhere on Nipate, he has stated that Africa is doing just fine---look at economic growth rates and other indicators---and,  oddly enough, that most Africans suffer from self-inflicted wounds that they must fix for themselves without relying on governments, that fixing a place like Kenya just requires simple Mutua-like ideas, dot dot dot.   First-Class Confusion.)


Offline gout

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #94 on: April 23, 2015, 10:04:44 AM »
EU ministers who authorised budget cuts for scaling down of search and rescue missions should be charged with crimes against humanity
The hypocrisy needs to end...Poor Kenya can't be lectured on why it can't send away refugees due ti international obligations while EU & Us don't care about such obligations ....

It is also evident all these immigrants are coming from countries where EU & US have invested billions in war, armies, artilery, regime change schemes and all sort of despicable economic evils .....They are guilty as charged

mmmhhhhhh

Mediterranean Wave Forecast (WAM) http://isramar.ocean.org.il/isramar2009/wave_model/default.aspx?region=coarse&model=wam


And let us face it..Mediterranean sea is one of the world MOST peaceful sea that people were using rafters 3,000 yrs ago to cross.

The deaths are really fishy...even a leaky rickety boat should be able to cross from tunisia to italy...there is barely a tide in that sea.
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one ~ Thomas Paine

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #95 on: April 23, 2015, 12:33:41 PM »
Yes this to mean remain a EU problem. We cannot deflect it to Africans or Arabs. The refugees are knocking their gates. They have to figure out a humanitarian response to that.

Regarding Mediterrian sea...I find it suspect that modern boats are sinking in a sea that people were using 3,000 yrs ago. Italy and those countries along that sea developed quickly precisely of that. It one of the easiest sea to navigate.

This calls for international investigations..somebody must be drowning those boats.

EU ministers who authorised budget cuts for scaling down of search and rescue missions should be charged with crimes against humanity
The hypocrisy needs to end...Poor Kenya can't be lectured on why it can't send away refugees due ti international obligations while EU & Us don't care about such obligations ....

It is also evident all these immigrants are coming from countries where EU & US have invested billions in war, armies, artilery, regime change schemes and all sort of despicable economic evils .....They are guilty as charged

mmmhhhhhh

Mediterranean Wave Forecast (WAM) http://isramar.ocean.org.il/isramar2009/wave_model/default.aspx?region=coarse&model=wam


Offline Omollo

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #96 on: April 23, 2015, 03:36:18 PM »
You missed something crucial: I have called for a fundamental and revolutionary review of the asylum institution. I am also calling for the proper and formal regularization of migration. There is no need to feed human traffickers. There are empty spaces in Ghost towns in Italy, US etc. Let us look at the world a truly borderless - real globalization not just economic globalization.

As we face global warming who knows who would need to run to Africa? We need to move towards a global free movement of humanity. What I have suggested as mild small baby steps towards that goal.
Omollo: 

I have no "fundamental" problem with any of these ideas; I just wonder how they would work.   In fact, I note that the Italian Prime Minister has in fact just tossed out the idea of some such camps in parts of Africa.  I would have the same questions.   Specifically, the initial ideas would involve something like working with the UN to determine "genuine refugees".   That sort of language generally excludes, for example,  the Nigerians that you mentioned---simple economic refugees.   

Europe has certainly exploited Africa for a long, long time; so one may argue that Africans have every right to go there and get back some of it.   I have no issues with such a view.   Nor do I have any issues with the idea that both Africans and the Westerners would be better off if, say, vigorous Africans were to populate ghost towns in Italy, down-and-out parts of Northern England, the Detroits of the USA, and so forth.   Even the "World Human Bourse" and poverty as grounds for asylum can be imagined.

My "problem" is this: I don't see any of that happening.   I don't see any Western country---and hardly any other country---opening its borders to all comers solely on the basis that they are "able bodied, law abiding people".  What's more, I don't see that changing solely on the basis that racism is to be condemned, there are "historical debts" of exploitation, and so forth.  That being so, I prefer to focus on other approaches, even while appreciating all the good points made in other respects.

Regarding poverty:  Here is something you wrote a few "postings" ago:

Quote
The large number of Nigerians among the migrants is enough to support that point. Nigeria is not poor. It is a highly unequal society.

(1) Folks like Pundit might say that Africans cannot be expected to fix this and that while they have so many problems, but who, then, is supposed to fix the problem of such inequities? 

(Pundit is, of course, a "special case": Elsewhere on Nipate, he has stated that Africa is doing just fine---look at economic growth rates and other indicators---and,  oddly enough, that most Africans suffer from self-inflicted wounds that they must fix for themselves without relying on governments, that fixing a place like Kenya just requires simple Mutua-like ideas, dot dot dot.   First-Class Confusion.)

(2) If one is to be objective, then one ought to look at it from both sides.   Should a European country allow any number of fleeing Nigerians as long as they are "able bodied, law abiding people"?   One may argue "YES", on any number of grounds.  But the hard, human fact is that people are going to say, "Nigeria is not poor; you folks just need to stop fucking up". 

So, even as we imagine the most "progressive" solutions, we are living in the here-and-now, and imagination does not make the cold shower of reality any warmer.   

Quote
15 million Africans per European country (on average) appears a reasonable quarter. The Western would be welcome to equally make use of the African quarters and move some of their citizens who need the "Summer" African climate.

An excellent idea.   When do you suppose we would see the start of this?
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #97 on: April 24, 2015, 01:02:46 AM »
You missed something crucial: I have called for a fundamental and revolutionary review of the asylum institution. I am also calling for the proper and formal regularization of migration. There is no need to feed human traffickers. There are empty spaces in Ghost towns in Italy, US etc. Let us look at the world a truly borderless - real globalization not just economic globalization.

I did not miss any of it.   I'm all for what Pundit calls your "progressive ideas": "fundamental and revolutionary review of the asylum institution", filling "empty spaces in Ghost towns in Italy, US etc.", a world that is "truly borderless", and so on and so forth.   Excellent ideas, all of them.  Truly excellent.  Simply outstanding in sheer originality. 

 Just a couple of questions:

(a) When exactly do you see all this happening? (No need at present to go into who would start it and how the world would go about it.  Just a rough estimate of the "when" will do.)

(b) If it is not in the near future, in which many more will be dying daily, any thoughts of what is to be done as we wait for the above world?
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Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #98 on: April 24, 2015, 01:07:35 AM »
The hypocrisy needs to end...Poor Kenya can't be lectured on why it can't send away refugees due ti international obligations while EU & Us don't care about such obligations ....

Which international obligations don't they care about?   There are certain aspects of international law and agreements that deal with asylum seekers, and I'd be interested to know which ones are in question here. 

Quote
EU ministers who authorised budget cuts for scaling down of search and rescue missions should be charged with crimes against humanity

Under what definition of "crimes against humanity" could that even be contemplated?
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
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Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #99 on: April 24, 2015, 01:12:25 AM »
EU leadership have to stop cowering to racist right wing and enact progressive immigration policies that treat all refugees fairly.

Now that you've stated it, I'm sure they will.   I will, however, note that all countries make a distinction between economic refugees and those seeking refuge from war, political persecution, etc.   So the first question some will ask is what does "fairly" mean.   (See also my question to Omollo on the screening of economic refugees.)
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