Author Topic: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy  (Read 35287 times)

Offline Omollo

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #60 on: April 22, 2015, 11:43:14 AM »
This policy is inspired by fear. The moneyed industrialist in Italy makes use of cheap labor - be it on farms (milking buffaloes for Pizza cheese for the Mafia) or cheap Nigerian prostitutes for bonga bonga parties and old men long past their "bury-by" date. The trade unions in Europe have negotiated the people they employ in to unproductivity.

Note however that apart from a few countries, most of European countries like Kenya were no big on industrialization. So while Germany can rightly claim to have shade jobs in the Iron and Steel industry in the face of mechanization or is it robotization, Iceland, Ireland etc can not say the same. Others like Britain have seen their productivity go down as much of their industrialization transferred to Asia. Thus we have a seen non-productive "work" involving speculation and paper shuffling in the 90s to the 2008 catharsis.  While the US has been recovering jobs by practically bribing industry to repatriate them home with low (zero) interests, Europe delayed in doing that and has only recently started. I believe the motivation was selfish in that the EU intended to shield itself from Greece. Thus we see quantitative easing albeit at higher interest rates than what the US Feds offered.

Pundit all this has caused uncertainty. Politicians have no answers to the growing unemployment. Spain has as high unemployment as Kenya if not worse. I have met spaniards all over Europe looking for employment. The biggest producer of white prostitutes in Europe is no longer Albania but Portugal. Portuguese unemployed are flocking back to Mozambique to work and this time with much greater humility! Exactly what their ancestors should have done and avoided years of suffering.

Let me end my rumbling by remind you guys that the British Empire collapsed because of RACISM. It could not institute democracy which it needed to survive. Democracy would transfer power to non whites. Rather than be ruled by non whites and having tried every model they could including setting up different kingdoms and empires within the empire, the end of the second world war, American pressure (the first to depart because of lack of democracy) the empire wound up.
Yes I think we have be going round the real issue. The blatant racist inspired immigration policies we see in Western world (US&EU) and their colonial outposts. The fear amongst whites is that with their low birth rates and with Asians,Africans,Arabs,Latinos and name them increasing, they soon will be outnumbered in "their" countries. Africans [black people] I think have matched or overtaken white people..they both should be 1B or about. We will see more Isreal type of Apartheid going forward.
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline Omollo

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #61 on: April 22, 2015, 11:48:27 AM »
Omorlo,

Is there any country in the world that welcomes and helps thousands of illegal immigrants by the day across its borders?
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline vooke

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #62 on: April 22, 2015, 11:56:12 AM »
You know Omorlo, Italy is also admitting them, and they have thousands of economic refugees as it were. In the first 60 days of 2014, they received over 6,000. Presently, around 15% of its population are foreigners.The numbers keep growing. What the country would not do is ENCOURAGE the vice of illegal immigration by going out of its way to save those attempting to break its own Laws.

Interestingly, this Wikipedia source says most immigration into Italy is from Eastern Europe
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Italy

Omorlo,

Is there any country in the world that welcomes and helps thousands of illegal immigrants by the day across its borders?
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #63 on: April 22, 2015, 12:05:23 PM »
Your self-hate is clouding your judgement. Nobody likes refugees or foreigners. But we have to accept they are human (stop denigrading Africans by calling them negros..). We have Somali refugees, who scare a lot of kenyans coz of their ethnicity, religion and now terrorism..but should we lock our borders and probably send them hyenas to mull those trying to scale our wall. That is not acceptable. 

We continue to welcome Somalis and condemn attempt by likes of WSR to criminalize refugees.

Italy will have to face this until Libya, Egypt,Middle east, Greece and rest of their neighbors across the Mediterranean get their act together.We do not choose our neighbours. We cannot send away poor women and kids running away from ISIS,poverty, wars and bombs...coz they do not look like us or have different religion.

Italy has received 6,000 :) :) big deal according to you? while we have received how many millions?

Nobody should be allowed to discriminate refugees based on their color or religion. The least Italy can do is to set a mega refugee camp in one of those beaches. Feed and clothe them..or well ask UN for help. Wait out till the refugees get somewhere to go...including back to their countries.

Or well pluck themselves out of Mediterranean seas...and go live somewhere else.

Stop the self-hate and you'll start see people as humans first. Vatican is not so special.


I have aksd you again, how would ANY country respond to thousands upon thousands attempting to breach its borders? Helping them through? How would Kung Fu your beloved react? Would they be as welcoming?  Worse is the IS in Libya that is scaring the hell out of Vatican

Nobody is opposed to immigration, all humans have migrated at some point in the past. But thousands swarming one beach line by the hour  is the perfect definition of chaos


Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #64 on: April 22, 2015, 12:12:31 PM »
Considering what is going on up in North Africa, Middle East and Eastern Europe; They should brace themselves for more and more refugees. They can simply build a huge refugee camp and everyone will be happy..and slowly find ways to deal with that humanitarian crisis. They are not some special people who will be contaminated by refugees.
You know Omorlo, Italy is also admitting them, and they have thousands of economic refugees as it were. In the first 60 days of 2014, they received over 6,000. Presently, around 15% of its population are foreigners.The numbers keep growing. What the country would not do is ENCOURAGE the vice of illegal immigration by going out of its way to save those attempting to break its own Laws.

Interestingly, this Wikipedia source says most immigration into Italy is from Eastern Europe
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Italy


Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #65 on: April 22, 2015, 12:16:07 PM »
Right it pure racism. And it will get worse for them because the minorities are going to breed and breed..and jump borders. They just need to simply accept that we are all human being, white, black or brown. Once they do that, I think everything will be alright. Whatever problems..economic or etc...will be resolved easily if they do not attempt crazy notions that some people are inferior and will lower the standards...of xyz.
This policy is inspired by fear. The moneyed industrialist in Italy makes use of cheap labor - be it on farms (milking buffaloes for Pizza cheese for the Mafia) or cheap Nigerian prostitutes for bonga bonga parties and old men long past their "bury-by" date. The trade unions in Europe have negotiated the people they employ in to unproductivity.

Note however that apart from a few countries, most of European countries like Kenya were no big on industrialization. So while Germany can rightly claim to have shade jobs in the Iron and Steel industry in the face of mechanization or is it robotization, Iceland, Ireland etc can not say the same. Others like Britain have seen their productivity go down as much of their industrialization transferred to Asia. Thus we have a seen non-productive "work" involving speculation and paper shuffling in the 90s to the 2008 catharsis.  While the US has been recovering jobs by practically bribing industry to repatriate them home with low (zero) interests, Europe delayed in doing that and has only recently started. I believe the motivation was selfish in that the EU intended to shield itself from Greece. Thus we see quantitative easing albeit at higher interest rates than what the US Feds offered.

Pundit all this has caused uncertainty. Politicians have no answers to the growing unemployment. Spain has as high unemployment as Kenya if not worse. I have met spaniards all over Europe looking for employment. The biggest producer of white prostitutes in Europe is no longer Albania but Portugal. Portuguese unemployed are flocking back to Mozambique to work and this time with much greater humility! Exactly what their ancestors should have done and avoided years of suffering.

Let me end my rumbling by remind you guys that the British Empire collapsed because of RACISM. It could not institute democracy which it needed to survive. Democracy would transfer power to non whites. Rather than be ruled by non whites and having tried every model they could including setting up different kingdoms and empires within the empire, the end of the second world war, American pressure (the first to depart because of lack of democracy) the empire wound up.

Offline Omollo

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #66 on: April 22, 2015, 02:29:52 PM »
I suggest creating a UN body for Migration to tackle the problem. They could transfer people around based on the available space in the host countries. Countries like Italy with empty towns can take in a few millions. Those desolate US cities with rotting houses are better than the hovels in Mathare. They can fill up. Places in Northern England can take up up to 15 million.

This will give European economies the push they need to restore economic growth and create jobs. It would silence the xenophobes.
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #67 on: April 22, 2015, 03:15:16 PM »
Precisely. The world is big enough for everyone...except those who fear being "ruled" by others..who will bring "foreign" cultures and values. Europe need real leaders to shut down the ring wing nut jobs. Obama has been US PORK for 8 yrs and USA did not become a smaller country with smaller values..it become a great country.
I suggest creating a UN body for Migration to tackle the problem. They could transfer people around based on the available space in the host countries. Countries like Italy with empty towns can take in a few millions. Those desolate US cities with rotting houses are better than the hovels in Mathare. They can fill up. Places in Northern England can take up up to 15 million.

This will give European economies the push they need to restore economic growth and create jobs. It would silence the xenophobes.

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #68 on: April 22, 2015, 03:27:12 PM »
Guys

I want to ask some rhetorical questions and mix them with self-righteous statements:

1. Would Europe have cut down of rescue services in the mediterranean sea to cause and force massive deterrent deaths if the boat occupants were blond white men, women and babies?
2. Would Australia have deployed her Sea, Land and Air Forces to tele-detect refugee boats, undertake high seas case processing, determine them as economic migrants and offload and ship them back home while sinking their boat on grounds that it "probably carried disease"?
3. Note that Australia still has a policy that favours white migrants but stringently opposes nay fights non-white migration. Extremely wealthy non-white people may settle if they pay a huge amount of a bribe called "investment". Ditto: New Zealand, Canada and many countries in Europe (varying degrees)
4. The adoption of White babies in Eastern Europe - Russia for blonds - is extremely sought after
5. Is Britain's so called fear of migrants from the EU islamophobia mixed with racism (directed at the Roma, Gypsies)?
6. How is the much feared flood of migrants helping the otherwise dead housing and property market in Western Europe
7. How has the said flood of migrants affected the cost of labor in Europe? Health Care? Senior Citizens Policy

Omollo:

The essence of a large part of your questions appears to be that racism is involved.   There is no doubt about that; generally mzungu does not care much for non-mzungu and especially blacks.   Should the racism be condemned?   Absolutely, and in the strongest possible terms.   But in the meantime people are dying in that sea.   What is to be done beyond condemning the racism and appealing to the "better" side of people?
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
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Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #69 on: April 22, 2015, 03:31:07 PM »
I suggest creating a UN body for Migration to tackle the problem. They could transfer people around based on the available space in the host countries. Countries like Italy with empty towns can take in a few millions. Those desolate US cities with rotting houses are better than the hovels in Mathare. They can fill up. Places in Northern England can take up up to 15 million.

This will give European economies the push they need to restore economic growth and create jobs. It would silence the xenophobes.

An interesting idea.   But a couple of questions:

(a) What are the realistic chances of this "UN body for Migration", which moves people around according to whatever space it finds,  happening?  Which countries do you see as being ready to hand over their immigration policies to some UN body?

(b) In the very unlikely chance that anyone bought the idea, how long would it take to form and get working?

Going by past patterns, this year's deaths will reach a "record" high.     A more urgent solution is needed, even as we wait for the "UN body for Migration".   
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
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Offline Bella

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #70 on: April 22, 2015, 04:19:06 PM »
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #71 on: April 22, 2015, 04:44:01 PM »
Yes, IOM already does that, though on a certain minimum level of course. Tracking migration and attempting to bring some kind of order to human migration I believe is its area of concern.

I tend to think of IOM doing in immigration something like what Interpol does in policing, i.e. aiming to provide some sort of umbrella that makes national bodies etc. work better.

"IOM is dedicated to promoting humane and orderly migration for the benefit of all. It does so by providing services and advice to governments and migrants."

It is certainly a long way from what Omollo proposes that would put millions in empty Italian towns, 15 million in Northern England, etc.   

Quote
The thing is, the powers will be forced to do more for poorer countries if they don't want immigration to keep happening.

Yes, in the long term that would be a much better approach.
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Offline Omollo

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #72 on: April 22, 2015, 04:55:40 PM »
MK

Both you and Pundit have good ideas. This is a complex problem.

The key lies in identifying the reasons people move. In fact I should say poor people. Rich people move easily around the world. They are called variously tourists, investors, businessmen / businesswomen etc.

Poor people move because of all manner of problems associated with poverty. Whether they are the so called natural disasters or man made, the underlying cause is poverty. A cyclone hitting The Philippines inevitably kills the poor and destroys their hovels. It hardly makes a dent on a rich man's castle built on the high ground overlooking the slum.

Locally: Post election violence in Kenya was about poverty and the power of the Presidency as seen to ameliorate deprivation. We are seeing devolution beginning to calm the nerves with unbearable resistance from the National government and the tribes benefitting from the inequality of the pre-devolution period.

These are the issues to be addressed.

Note that people do not flee their own country until the inequalities are horrendous and near-"sinful". It is just a question of time before those South African Inkathas begin to mount boats in Durban port and head North and East. That is because of the huge inequalities between the rich and poor. I need not belabour the point. The large number of Nigerians among the migrants is enough to support that point. Nigeria is not poor. It is a highly unequal society.

Democracy or lack goes hand in glove with or without these inequalities. Societies that by and large "Equitable" where difference between citizens' incomes and wealth are not so pronounced are also likely to conduct free and fair elections whose results accurately reflect the will of the people. They are also the same countries that produce none or few migrants. Need I name Tanzania?

So I am saying it not about pumping huge sums of money in to these countries. The US did that with Mobutu's Zaire and we all know how that did end. Let us first learn how to harness the limited resources we have before we can take on more.

For instance if you are familiar with the "absorption capacity" principle, you will need no imagination to know that most of the cash now being pumped inn to Kenya by China will end up in private bank accounts. That is because any analysis will show that it cannot be absorbed by the country in the period that is provided - whatever they do!

But in the MEANTIME (I know you did single out the word): There is need for immediate emergency action to stem the deaths. If these people want to go to Europe and since many of them will be deported. The EU should set up camps all over Africa and Middle East where they can apply be screened and some taken in. It should not be a place to turn people away but to seriously consider their cases.

They should increase the search and rescue services (land, Sea and Air) to ensure that nobody dies.
 
Omollo:

The essence of a large part of your questions appears to be that racism is involved.   There is no doubt about that; generally mzungu does not care much for non-mzungu and especially blacks.   Should the racism be condemned?   Absolutely, and in the strongest possible terms.   But in the meantime people are dying in that sea.   What is to be done beyond condemning the racism and appealing to the "better" side of people?
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #73 on: April 22, 2015, 05:04:08 PM »
Termie,
A bazungu jetting here and thousands of illegal immigrants stretching your coast guard are eternities apart. There can't possibly be order out of this chaos. The negroes discard all their IDs so they can't be deported.

I wonder which country would entertain THOUSANDS of negroes attempting to breach its borders. I wonder what Kung Fu would do. Italy is  exercising a lot of restraint; it's like a negro jumping infront of your speeding ride because they know when you hit them, you will feel sorry me take them to the best hospital where they will get free meals. This is MORAL BLACKMAIL, and it won't get negroes far
Hehehe...show me one example of a European country that has lost out because of migrants and I will show you a flying pig.  If a muzungu can go to Nairobi seeking opportunities(legal or otherwise) then  he has no moral authority to stop the Negro from doing the same in his country.
One guy comes in a plane.  Stays at an all expenses paid hotel.  Then moves into a swanky residence.  Doing nothing that locals can't do.  Compensated at first world rates.  Taking away from the economy. 

The other guy comes with the clothes on his back.  Is on his feet within no time.  Doing work the locals would not be caught with their pants down doing.  Adding to the economy. 

This is how I understood you.  That somehow it is okay for a muzungu to seek to improve himself at the expense of the African.  But not the other way round.  Because they are illegal.

You haven't shown me one country that has been brought to its knees by accepting and legalizing these Africans.

Kung Fu's people are themselves victims of traffickers.  He does not exactly have to deal with the same problem Europe does.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Omollo

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #74 on: April 22, 2015, 05:07:55 PM »
Bella, MK and Pundit

I will take it in one go.

MK is right, I am proposing something huge and revolutionary. The problem is huge and unheard of. People want to move and they will regardless of the measures taken. Smugglers are still taking people on planes and through airports despite all the security measures being taken. You can virtually move to any country illegally through legal routes (airports, sea ports, planes) if you pay enough ( if sounds silly it really is but true as well).

So to cut through it I have proposed that each country give quarters. The quarters should exceed the number of persons leaving the country.So if Italy is sending out 1 million yearly, it should take in 1.5 millions.

In addition to quarters, those cities and towns that have since become desolate should be offered to migrants.
Let me share some photos of Italian Ghost Cities: I am told there are more of the Ghost Cities in the US

... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #75 on: April 22, 2015, 05:12:53 PM »
The large number of Nigerians among the migrants is enough to support that point. Nigeria is not poor. It is a highly unequal society.

This "highlights" one of the points I've been trying to make: Nigerians found in the water should be rescued, and racism against Nigerians should be condemned.   But past that the underlying problem, which you correctly identify, can be solved only by Nigerians.  (Even the short-term solution of dealing with human-traffickers can start with those in Nigeria.)

Quote

The EU should set up camps all over Africa and Middle East where they can apply be screened and some taken in. It should not be a place to turn people away but to seriously consider their cases.

What would they be screened for?
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
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Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #76 on: April 22, 2015, 05:17:29 PM »
Why they are running away and or using illegal means to get to Europe. Are they drug dealers? Prostitutes? terrorists? Or just people running away for dear life coz of war or threats on their lives. What sort of assistance do they need. What sort of countries would accept them?

Asking Africa to do something when the guy has a bucket list of 1 million items is plain laughable.

What would they be screened for?

Offline Omollo

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #77 on: April 22, 2015, 05:18:19 PM »
Poor choice of terms. The word evokes negative feelings .. like screening for Ebola, no!

Usually when you want only a certain number, there is a criteria which is developed and largely followed. One would need to examine every applicant to determine if he / she meets the criteria set for selection.

We have to do that often in Humanitarian Disasters to save as many lives as possible. In such cases we asses vulnerability. That means children, disabled, child headed households, women, the sick etc come first.
What would they be screened for?
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline Omollo

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #78 on: April 22, 2015, 05:18:50 PM »
Exactly.
Why they are running away and or using illegal means to get to Europe. Are they drug dealers? Prostitutes? terrorists? Or just people running away for dear life coz of war or threats on their lives.
What would they be screened for?
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #79 on: April 22, 2015, 05:21:33 PM »
US ought to be a great example of an immigrant nation. But right leaning politician are spreading falsehoods and fear among-st developed nations.This has to be contested.

One guy comes in a plane.  Stays at an all expenses paid hotel.  Then moves into a swanky residence.  Doing nothing that locals can't do.  Compensated at first world rates.  Taking away from the economy. 

The other guy comes with the clothes on his back.  Is on his feet within no time.  Doing work the locals would not be caught with their pants down doing.  Adding to the economy. 

This is how I understood you.  That somehow it is okay for a muzungu to seek to improve himself at the expense of the African.  But not the other way round.  Because they are illegal.

You haven't shown me one country that has been brought to its knees by accepting and legalizing these Africans.

Kung Fu's people are themselves victims of traffickers.  He does not exactly have to deal with the same problem Europe does.