Author Topic: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy  (Read 41384 times)

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8783
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2015, 06:30:40 PM »
Pundit,

I think you are deliberately misunderstanding MOON Ki.  The man does say the refugees should be saved.  That doesn't mean they will necessarily be saved as this case shows.  Someone is responsible for this situation ultimately.  It could be Italians, some human trafficking mafia, any combination of both.

But the African(the big man and his elite circles) needs to fix the situation back in Africa; we know he doesn't have the resources, time nor care for the folks already on the seas.  I don't see anything wrong about that suggestion.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38334
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2015, 06:36:07 PM »
It only a problem when it presented as EITHER OR option. And that is where I have a problem. If we are talking raft of short term and long term solutions no problem. In the meantime Italy and EU who have the ability to save economic and war refugees crossing over...ought to do more and NOW. Africa big man and elite circle are not doing a bad job if you go by economic growth and other indicators. So cut them some slack...it will be more years before they catch up..but in the meantime nobody has the right to drown or look aside as boats try to reach their country.

Bottomline. These are refugees. Let discuss them in that context.

But the African(the big man and his elite circles) needs to fix the situation back in Africa; we know he doesn't have the resources, time nor care for the folks already on the seas.  I don't see anything wrong about that suggestion.

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2015, 06:45:17 PM »
It only a problem when it presented as EITHER OR option. And that is where I have a problem.

Then you have an imaginary problem, because here is what I wrote:

Quote
The real issues are: (a) the conditions that have forced them to take such a desperate path, (b) the human traffickers who have taken advantage of such desperation, and (c) what happens to them once they are in the water.

(a) and (b) should be handled mostly on the continent.   (c) to be handled mostly on the EU side, but much can also be done on the other side, at the water's edge.


A bit of Pure Pundit:

Quote
Africa big man and elite circle are not doing a bad job

Really?  Wow.

Oddly enough, just a couple of postings ago you suggested they were "unable or unwilling" to do what is required.   

You add:

Quote
in the meantime nobody has the right to drown or look aside as boats try to reach their country.

That may be so.   But right or no-right, the fact is that it is happening.     

Quote
Bottomline. These are refugees. Let discuss them in that context.

A discussion on refuges should never be entirely separated from a discussion of the conditions that made them to be refugees in the first place. An inclusive discussion is always the start for lasting solutions.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Omollo

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 7143
  • Reputation: 13780
  • http://www.omollosview.com
    • Omollosview
Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2015, 06:58:15 PM »
Australian Racist Prime Minister just offered advice to Europe on how to deal with non-white immigrants: Stop the Boats
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2015, 08:01:40 PM »
The notion of "moral obligation" has come up, in a rather excited fashion, for the second time in about as many weeks.   So I thought I'd share some of my views on that:

(1) The notion of "moral obligation" is not absolute.   Among other things, it depends on one's "system of ethics", which, in turn, is determined by numerous factors.   Suffice it to say that what it entails varies from place to place and even from person to person.

(2) Where people feel sufficiently strongly about "moral obligations" and agree on them, they will codify them into laws, agreements, or whatever.     Those too will vary from place to place, but there are some international ones---such as on refugees, prisoners of war, and so forth.

(3) To my mind, where "moral obligations" are not codified into law, or whatever, it is foolish to rely on them---for the very simple reasons in (1).   This, of course, does not mean that we should not assert what we feel "moral obligations"; it simply means that it is unwise to rely on such assertions, unless it is among people or nations or whatever that share the same views on such matters.

(4) My observation---and it could be wrong---is that people, whether as individuals or as nations, act first in self-interest.   To the point that they have been "indoctrinated" in some particular religion or "system of ethics" or some guilt-inducing system---and a few might even actually be good---they might also act in the interest of others.   Otherwise, action will be based on the fear of adverse consequences (e.g. from failure to obey the "law".)

In the present matter, we may all agree that Europeans have certain moral obligations to act in certain ways.   But the most pressing question has to be this: what if they don't?  As Africans, what is our self-interest, and who looks after it?

Pundit has, for example, suggested that

Quote
In the meantime Italy and Eu should pursue progressive immigration and refugee policies and not cow to right wing political wave.

They might, or they might not.  In that regard, I don't foresee any major changes "in the meantime", but that is actually not especially important for the point I wish to make.   More critical is this: what if they don't?    By way of "safety" or Plan B, I think that we should also prepare for "the worst".    So, to my mind, here is the pressing question: given that it is easier to control or to change oneself than to control or to change others, what can we do for ourselves?

While we also call on the EU to do certain things, why not at the same time also call out on the AU?    For Uhuru and Ruto, the latter went all out.   How many words have they even said about the Mediterranean situation?    (It has been going on for years and this year looks set to be a "record year".)

As Africans we need to give up on this idea that we must  continue to rely on the West or the East (China) until one day, miraculously, we achieve "equality"; after all, we did not have such thinking during the independence wars.  We have the abilities and resources to do  for ourselves.   If our leaders are "unable or unwilling", is the solution then to "outsource" the leadership while, oddly enough, at the very same time we assert "sovereign and independent and equal"?  Is that not a recipe for perpetual dependency?    Yes, someone will always send yellow maize, perhaps out of some sense of "moral obligation".  But why not free ourselves by growing our own maize?

Given what mwafrika faces all over the world, the only real solution will be for him to work on making home a better place.  So, the Europeans don't  care whether or not Africans die, like flies, in the Mediterranean.   And the Africans?  Where is their caring?
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38334
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2015, 10:03:38 PM »
In summary you espouse primitive Darwinian theory of survival for the fittest. Part of the job of African leaders and us African people is to REMIND Europeans and other fortunate nations of their moral obligation to help the poor,the weak and those running away from poverty, disease and wars.When we become rich...we will do our part to help poor Europeans. Angola is helping Portugal now...they are not drowning their boats.

Societal changes just do not happen. People had to shout to make slavery illegal. They had to shout to make racism illegal. They had to shout to make colonoliasm illegal. They had to shout to make  South Africa's Apartheid illegal. The perpetrators were all powerful nations...and victim were helpless..and so it would seem..the women from Syria with little kids trying to make their way to Europe.

The victim here is a helpless refugee whose only crimes is trying to make a better life for themselves by crossing the borders. We need to tell Europe they cannot do that.They cannot practice racism live live under the guise of "Immigration" control because we know Eastern Europeans are moving in more numbers than Africans and Arabs.

And you'll find me shouting about Xenophobia and Isreal's Apartheid...and these immigrants.

Telling us to go and quickly develop our African countries is absolute total BS that your spew day in day out. Development is not a pizza your order. That will take even 100yrs....we are making small painful progress...but this will take a lot of time and patience.

World leaders should call out Europe racist immigration controls for what it is...abhorrent racism. If they insist..we can also kick out their people or companies from Africa and Middle East. Kenya for starters has 100,000 British passport holders...20,000 americans...and name them.

The notion of "moral obligation" has come up, in a rather excited u, for the second time in about as many weeks.   So I thought I'd share some of my views on that:

(1) The notion of "moral obligation" is not absolute.   Among other things, it depends on one's "system of ethics", which, in turn, is determined by numerous factors.   Suffice it to say that what it entails varies from place to place and even from person to person.

(2) Where people feel sufficiently strongly about "moral obligations" and agree on them, they will codify them into laws, agreements, or whatever.     Those too will vary from place to place, but there are some international ones---such as on refugees, prisoners of war, and so forth.

(3) To my mind, where "moral obligations" are not codified into law, or whatever, it is foolish to rely on them---for the very simple reasons in (1).   This, of course, does not mean that we should not assert what we feel "moral obligations"; it simply means that it is unwise to rely on such assertions, unless it is among people or nations or whatever that share the same views on such matters.

(4) My observation---and it could be wrong---is that people, whether as individuals or as nations, act first in self-interest.   To the point that they have been "indoctrinated" in some particular religion or "system of ethics" or some guilt-inducing system---and a few might even actually be good---they might also act in the interest of others.   Otherwise, action will be based on the fear of adverse consequences (e.g. from failure to obey the "law".)

In the present matter, we may all agree that Europeans have certain moral obligations to act in certain ways.   But the most pressing question has to be this: what if they don't?  As Africans, what is our self-interest, and who looks after it?

Pundit has, for example, suggested that

Quote
In the meantime Italy and Eu should pursue progressive immigration and refugee policies and not cow to right wing political wave.

They might, or they might not.  In that regard, I don't foresee any major changes "in the meantime", but that is actually not especially important for the point I wish to make.   More critical is this: what if they don't?    By way of "safety" or Plan B, I think that we should also prepare for "the worst".    So, to my mind, here is the pressing question: given that it is easier to control or to change oneself than to control or to change others, what can we do for ourselves?

While we also call on the EU to do certain things, why not at the same time also call out on the AU?    For Uhuru and Ruto, the latter went all out.   How many words have they even said about the Mediterranean situation?    (It has been going on for years and this year looks set to be a "record year".)

As Africans we need to give up on this idea that we must  continue to rely on the West or the East (China) until one day, miraculously, we achieve "equality"; after all, we did not have such thinking during the independence wars.  We have the abilities and resources to do  for ourselves.   If our leaders are "unable or unwilling", is the solution then to "outsource" the leadership while, oddly enough, at the very same time we assert "sovereign and independent and equal"?  Is that not a recipe for perpetual dependency?    Yes, someone will always send yellow maize, perhaps out of some sense of "moral obligation".  But why not free ourselves by growing our own maize?

Given what mwafrika faces all over the world, the only real solution will be for him to work on making home a better place.  So, the Europeans don't  care whether or not Africans die, like flies, in the Mediterranean.   And the Africans?  Where is their caring?

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2015, 10:32:34 PM »
In summary you espouse primitive Darwinian theory of survival for the fittest. Part of the job of African leaders and us African people is to REMIND Europeans and other fortunate nations of their moral obligation to help the poor,the weak and those running away from poverty, disease and wars.

No, I do not espouse any such thing.   The African "leaders" are certainly free to remind the Europeans of anything and everything they think requires reminders.   But it seems to be unwise to count on such reminders having any effect.  Better have a Plan B ... is how I see it.   (We need not here get into what "job" African leaders have with respect to Africans.)

Quote
Societal changes just do not happen. People had to shout to make slavery illegal. They had to shout to make racism illegal. They had to shout to make colonoliasm illegal. They had to shout to make  South Africa's Apartheid illegal. The perpetrators were all powerful nations...and victim were helpless..and so it would seem..the women from Syria with little kids trying to make their way to Europe.

Quite right.  (For the moment we need not dwell on what societal changes African "leaders" are working on.)  One has to work to make things happen.   And, even while shouting, one ought to have a back-up plan in case the shouting does not have the desired effect; that is what I'm saying. 

Quote
The victim here is a helpless refugee whose only crimes is trying to make a better life for themselves by crossing the borders.

I don't think anybody disputes that.

Quote
We need to tell Europe they cannot do that.They cannot practice racism live

I really don't know what you mean by they cannot.  The simple fact is that they can, and, again, the proof is in the fact that they do.    All the time.   We can, should, and must shout about that; but we ought to do more than just hope that shouting will bring about the desired effect.

Quote
And you'll find me shouting about Xenophobia and Isreal's Apartheid...and these immigrants.

And so you should, as should we all.   But one hopes that there is a better plan than just shouting.    As I have asked: what if the shouting has no effect?   

Quote
Tell us to go and quickly develop our African countries is absolute total BS that your spew day in day out.

There you go again, getting carried away with emotion.  What I say is simple.  Let me break it down into easy parts:

(1) Racism is nasty.   We should all object to it and shout about it.   And the same goes for failure to help refugees drowning in the sea.

(2) But we must also consider that objections and shouting might have no effect.  In such a case, it behooves us to take care of ourselves.

(3) Rather than just hoping that our shouting will have some effect on the Europeans, we ought to look into what to do at our end.

What I don't see in your proposals is any "back-up plan" in the event that the Europeans don't listen to the shouting and the "genuine Chinese help" does not work fast enough.   

Quote
Development is not a pizza your order.

Indeed.   But neither does it fall out of the sky.  Nor is it handed out by others.   One needs to work on it, for oneself.

Quote
World leaders should call out Europe racist immigration controls for what it is...abhorrent racism.

Absolutely.   And if they don't?   And if they do, but the calls have no effect?  What then?

Quote
If they insist..we can also kick out their people or companies from Africa and Middle East. Kenya for starters has 100,000 British passport holders...20,000 americans...and name them.

This is where, again, I remind you that neither African governments nor the African Union seems to care the slightest bit about this issue.   Where do you propose to start? 

You  want to kick all those Westerners out of Kenya over this?    What gives you the idea that the Kenyan government has the slightest concern in the matter? (As it is, Kenyans are shedding grim tears over the drop in the number of Western tourists.)  Please ease off on the emotion-accelerator, and return to the real world.

--------------------

P.S: I note, in the "kicking out" proposal,  the implication that Africans can do something, or even threaten to do something.   It's a tiny,  and largely useless and impractical proposal, but it is a start, however small, in thinking about "what can we do at our end?".  Keep going.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38334
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2015, 10:43:17 PM »
You're going in cycles. Let me repeat. Condemning Europe's latest racist turn as right wing nuts take over is part of DOING something. Or you think they are dumb and deaf. What more do you want us to do 1) Either accelerate our development (improbable) or 2) Condemn outright racist policies from EU.In this thread..Omollo seem to have identified the real issue...while you're just busy with the now stale and boring tirade against Africans and their leaders.

And besides.

Africa is doing very well growing at 6% on average for the last 20yrs...which is near what China and India are doing...and is really commendable.

In summary you espouse primitive Darwinian theory of survival for the fittest. Part of the job of African leaders and us African people is to REMIND Europeans and other fortunate nations of their moral obligation to help the poor,the weak and those running away from poverty, disease and wars.

No, I do not espouse any such thing.   The African "leaders" are certainly free to remind the Europeans of anything and everything they think requires reminders.   But it seems to be unwise to count on such reminders having any effect.  Better have a Plan B ... is how I see it.   (We need not here get into what "job" African leaders have with respect to Africans.)

Quote
Societal changes just do not happen. People had to shout to make slavery illegal. They had to shout to make racism illegal. They had to shout to make colonoliasm illegal. They had to shout to make  South Africa's Apartheid illegal. The perpetrators were all powerful nations...and victim were helpless..and so it would seem..the women from Syria with little kids trying to make their way to Europe.

Quite right.  (For the moment we need not dwell on what societal changes African "leaders" are working on.)  One has to work to make things happen.   And, even while shouting, one ought to have a back-up plan in case the shouting does not have the desired effect; that is what I'm saying. 

Quote
The victim here is a helpless refugee whose only crimes is trying to make a better life for themselves by crossing the borders.

I don't think anybody disputes that.

Quote
We need to tell Europe they cannot do that.They cannot practice racism live

I really don't know what you mean by they cannot.  The simple fact is that they can, and, again, the proof is in the fact that they do.    All the time.   We can, should, and must shout about that; but we ought to do more than just hope that shouting will bring about the desired effect.

Quote
And you'll find me shouting about Xenophobia and Isreal's Apartheid...and these immigrants.

And so you should, as should we all.   But one hopes that there is a better plan than just shouting.    As I have asked: what if the shouting has no effect?   

Quote
Tell us to go and quickly develop our African countries is absolute total BS that your spew day in day out.

There you go again, getting carried away with emotion.  What I say is simple.  Let me break it down into easy parts:

(1) Racism is nasty.   We should all object to it and shout about it.   And the same goes for failure to help refugees drowning in the sea.

(2) But we must also consider that objections and shouting might have no effect.  In such a case, it behooves us to take care of ourselves.

(3) Rather than just hoping that our shouting will have some effect on the Europeans, we ought to look into what to do at our end.

What I don't see in your proposals is any "back-up plan" in the event that the Europeans don't listen to the shouting and the "genuine Chinese help" does not work fast enough.   

Quote
Development is not a pizza your order.

Indeed.   But neither does it fall out of the sky.  Nor is it handed out by others.   One needs to work on it, for oneself.

Quote
World leaders should call out Europe racist immigration controls for what it is...abhorrent racism.

Absolutely.   And if they don't?   And if they do, but the calls have no effect?  What then?

Quote
If they insist..we can also kick out their people or companies from Africa and Middle East. Kenya for starters has 100,000 British passport holders...20,000 americans...and name them.

This is where, again, I remind you that neither African governments nor the African Union seems to care the slightest bit about this issue.   Where do you propose to start? 

You  want to kick all those Westerners out of Kenya over this?    What gives you the idea that the Kenyan government has the slightest concern in the matter? (As it is, Kenyans are shedding grim tears over the drop in the number of Western tourists.)  Please ease off on the emotion-accelerator, and return to the real world.


Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2015, 10:47:15 PM »
You're going in cycles. Let me repeat. Condemning Europe's latest racism turn as right wing nuts take over is part of DOING something. Or you think they are dumb and deaf. What more do you want us to do 1) Either accelerate our development (improbable) or 2) Condemn.

I'm all for condemning them, and it is certainly part of doing something.  And if the condemnation does not have the desired effect, then what? I hope the "something" is not all, and I urge more---from the other side.  Which part of that do you find problematic?

Between (1) and (2): as I have stated before, tackle the human traffickers on the continent.   

Quote
Africa is doing very well growing at 6% on average for the last 20yrs...

And yet here we are.  Go stand on the shores of the Mediterranean and tell that to all those risking their lives to get into those boats; it is largely wasted on me.

 I don't care much for "economic growth" that benefits a relatively small part of the populace but leaves the majority in dire straits.   I'd rather hear about human development before I hear about this or that percent growth.

Quote
which is near what China and India are doing..

Perhaps I should, but I'm not particularly concerned with China or India.   In this particular matter, all I see are the Africans dying.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38334
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2015, 10:56:10 PM »
It has worked before and ought to work now. So do not worry. Africa growth is broad as reflected in all indices including human development.Don't equivocate when we ought to condemn racist drowning boats or failing to rescue folks.Italy has to figure out how to deal with messed up neighbours of magreb and middle east. I suggest they build a refugee camp like we did in Dadaab and Kakuma.

In any case any country however developed can wake up one day to find themselves refugees. Libya was developed but now it's gone. Syria. Egypt. Ukraine.Greece. Italy was recently facing a debt crisis..and it people would probably have taken boats to cross over to oil and gas rich middle east and magreb...were it not for wars and ISISs.

And if the condemnation does not have the desired effect, then what?

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2015, 11:01:23 PM »
It has worked before and ought to work now.

Again: "ought to work" does not mean "will work".   My unanswered question: what if it doesn't?

Why is it so hard to get people to think of alternatives if things don't go the way they think they should or would like them to go? This is not a matter of religious faith.  Why is it that you find unacceptable the idea of a "Plan B".   

Last year, 3500 people died in that sea.  (Which part of that includes "worked before"?)  So far this year---and, looking at previous numbers, it's "early days"---it's already near 1800.   When and how do you think it will "work"?  What are the signs that give you optimism.   
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38334
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2015, 11:09:03 PM »
There is no plan B that I can see other than appealing to sober Europeans to stop the right wing nut jobs. I cannot ask poor countries grappling with gazillion issues to deal with citizens bailing out for green pastures.I can only hope that more and more Africans will find opportunities within their borders. The plan A and B and C is for EU to come to their senses. They do not have to drown boats or look aside as boats capsize..they can do better.
Again: "ought to work" does not mean "will work".   My unanswered question: what if it doesn't?

Why is it so hard to get people to think of alternatives if things don't go the way they think they should or would like them to go? This is not a matter of religious faith.  Why is it that you find unacceptable the idea of a "Plan B".   

Last year, 3500 people died in that sea.  (Which part of that includes "worked before"?)  So far this year---and, looking at previous numbers, it's "early days"---it's already near 1800.   When and how do you think it will "work"?  What are the signs that give you optimism.   

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2015, 11:24:03 PM »
There is no plan B that I can see other than appealing to sober Europeans to stop the right wing nut jobs. I cannot ask poor countries grappling with gazillion issues to deal with citizens bailing out for green pastures.I can only hope that more and more Africans will find opportunities within their borders. The plan A and B and C is for EU to come to their senses. They do not have to drown boats or look aside as boats capsize..they can do better.

Those unfortunate people are simply doing what they feel they must do; there is no need to the governments to "deal" with them.   But there are others who can be dealt with: the human traffickers.

Last night I took a look at the numbers who paid to "cross" last year and how much the average payment supposedly was.   It is now near $1 billion per year and growing.   Just on that sea.   And it is organized.   That, to my mind, is where the Plan B ought to start.  Look at the routes and the starting points in particular countries, and try to work at that end.

Plan A and B and C, eh?  Even at the best of times total reliance on the goodwill of others is always risky business.  It is ridiculous if at the same time one also insists on "sovereign and independent and equal".   And, given that mzungu generally has little use for mwafrika, in such cases it is simply foolish and dangerous.   

"Appealing to sober Europeans" is all very well, as far as it goes---and that is not very far.   But is there even much of an appeal?  From where?   What are African governments and the African Union saying on the matter?   What have they said before?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 12:26:13 AM by MOON Ki »
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline vooke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 5985
  • Reputation: 8906
Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #53 on: April 22, 2015, 08:31:31 AM »
Termie,
A bazungu jetting here and thousands of illegal immigrants stretching your coast guard are eternities apart. There can't possibly be order out of this chaos. The negroes discard all their IDs so they can't be deported.

I wonder which country would entertain THOUSANDS of negroes attempting to breach its borders. I wonder what Kung Fu would do. Italy is  exercising a lot of restraint; it's like a negro jumping infront of your speeding ride because they know when you hit them, you will feel sorry me take them to the best hospital where they will get free meals. This is MORAL BLACKMAIL, and it won't get negroes far
Hehehe...show me one example of a European country that has lost out because of migrants and I will show you a flying pig.  If a muzungu can go to Nairobi seeking opportunities(legal or otherwise) then  he has no moral authority to stop the Negro from doing the same in his country.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Omollo

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 7143
  • Reputation: 13780
  • http://www.omollosview.com
    • Omollosview
Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #54 on: April 22, 2015, 09:52:15 AM »
Guys

I want to ask some rhetorical questions and mix them with self-righteous statements:

1. Would Europe have cut down of rescue services in the mediterranean sea to cause and force massive deterrent deaths if the boat occupants were blond white men, women and babies?
2. Would Australia have deployed her Sea, Land and Air Forces to tele-detect refugee boats, undertake high seas case processing, determine them as economic migrants and offload and ship them back home while sinking their boat on grounds that it "probably carried disease"?
3. Note that Australia still has a policy that favours white migrants but stringently opposes nay fights non-white migration. Extremely wealthy non-white people may settle if they pay a huge amount of a bribe called "investment". Ditto: New Zealand, Canada and many countries in Europe (varying degrees)
4. The adoption of White babies in Eastern Europe - Russia for blonds - is extremely sought after
5. Is Britain's so called fear of migrants from the EU islamophobia mixed with racism (directed at the Roma, Gypsies)?
6. How is the much feared flood of migrants helping the otherwise dead housing and property market in Western Europe
7. How has the said flood of migrants affected the cost of labor in Europe? Health Care? Senior Citizens Policy


... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38334
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #55 on: April 22, 2015, 11:02:53 AM »
Yes I think we have be going round the real issue. The blatant racist inspired immigration policies we see in Western world (US&EU) and their colonial outposts. The fear amongst whites is that with their low birth rates and with Asians,Africans,Arabs,Latinos and name them increasing, they soon will be outnumbered in "their" countries. Africans [black people] I think have matched or overtaken white people..they both should be 1B or about. We will see more Isreal type of Apartheid going forward.

Guys

I want to ask some rhetorical questions and mix them with self-righteous statements:

1. Would Europe have cut down of rescue services in the mediterranean sea to cause and force massive deterrent deaths if the boat occupants were blond white men, women and babies?
2. Would Australia have deployed her Sea, Land and Air Forces to tele-detect refugee boats, undertake high seas case processing, determine them as economic migrants and offload and ship them back home while sinking their boat on grounds that it "probably carried disease"?
3. Note that Australia still has a policy that favours white migrants but stringently opposes nay fights non-white migration. Extremely wealthy non-white people may settle if they pay a huge amount of a bribe called "investment". Ditto: New Zealand, Canada and many countries in Europe (varying degrees)
4. The adoption of White babies in Eastern Europe - Russia for blonds - is extremely sought after
5. Is Britain's so called fear of migrants from the EU islamophobia mixed with racism (directed at the Roma, Gypsies)?
6. How is the much feared flood of migrants helping the otherwise dead housing and property market in Western Europe
7. How has the said flood of migrants affected the cost of labor in Europe? Health Care? Senior Citizens Policy




Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38334
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #56 on: April 22, 2015, 11:10:06 AM »
That is nature of the beast. When Europeans had a population explosion they went abroad and killed many people including Indians, African, Red indians and Asians. There is population pressure on the rest of the world now..and Africans are not jumping the border to go and kill Italians..they are going there to look for jobs and opportunities to live.

I bet there are more white people living outside their ancestral home in Europe. Who is kicking out Italians in Malindi?

Your self-hate negro is indication you've got unresolved mental issues that requires more psychiatric help.

Termie,
A bazungu jetting here and thousands of illegal immigrants stretching your coast guard are eternities apart. There can't possibly be order out of this chaos. The negroes discard all their IDs so they can't be deported.

I wonder which country would entertain THOUSANDS of negroes attempting to breach its borders. I wonder what Kung Fu would do. Italy is  exercising a lot of restraint; it's like a negro jumping infront of your speeding ride because they know when you hit them, you will feel sorry me take them to the best hospital where they will get free meals. This is MORAL BLACKMAIL, and it won't get negroes far

Offline Mr Mansfield.

  • VIP
  • Mega superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 268
  • Reputation: 205
Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #57 on: April 22, 2015, 11:26:21 AM »
These African immigrants are going to make money in Europe but if you look at the issue wholistically you will find that Europeans make more money from Africa than Africans remitt back home,therefore these barbaric acts of drowning boats and other inhuman immigration control tacts should be condemned in the strongest terms possible,

Without Prejudice.

Offline vooke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 5985
  • Reputation: 8906
Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #58 on: April 22, 2015, 11:32:49 AM »
That is nature of the beast. When Europeans had a population explosion they went abroad and killed many people including Indians, African, Red indians and Asians. There is population pressure on the rest of the world now..and Africans are not jumping the border to go and kill Italians..they are going there to look for jobs and opportunities to live.

I bet there are more white people living outside their ancestral home in Europe. Who is kicking out Italians in Malindi?

I have aksd you again, how would ANY country respond to thousands upon thousands attempting to breach its borders? Helping them through? How would Kung Fu your beloved react? Would they be as welcoming?  Worse is the IS in Libya that is scaring the hell out of Vatican

Nobody is opposed to immigration, all humans have migrated at some point in the past. But thousands swarming one beach line by the hour  is the perfect definition of chaos

Quote
Your self-hate negro is indication you've got unresolved mental issues that requires more psychiatric help.
Moon Ki was right, keep your emotional rants off this debate
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline vooke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 5985
  • Reputation: 8906
Re: Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy
« Reply #59 on: April 22, 2015, 11:37:51 AM »
Omorlo,
Your hypothetical questions are no different from aksin if the civil rights movement could have scored much more and much faster had the victims been Caucasians and not negroes.

Is there any country in the world that welcomes and helps thousands of illegal immigrants by the day across its borders?

Guys

I want to ask some rhetorical questions and mix them with self-righteous statements:

1. Would Europe have cut down of rescue services in the mediterranean sea to cause and force massive deterrent deaths if the boat occupants were blond white men, women and babies?
2. Would Australia have deployed her Sea, Land and Air Forces to tele-detect refugee boats, undertake high seas case processing, determine them as economic migrants and offload and ship them back home while sinking their boat on grounds that it "probably carried disease"?
3. Note that Australia still has a policy that favours white migrants but stringently opposes nay fights non-white migration. Extremely wealthy non-white people may settle if they pay a huge amount of a bribe called "investment". Ditto: New Zealand, Canada and many countries in Europe (varying degrees)
4. The adoption of White babies in Eastern Europe - Russia for blonds - is extremely sought after
5. Is Britain's so called fear of migrants from the EU islamophobia mixed with racism (directed at the Roma, Gypsies)?
6. How is the much feared flood of migrants helping the otherwise dead housing and property market in Western Europe
7. How has the said flood of migrants affected the cost of labor in Europe? Health Care? Senior Citizens Policy



2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.