How do you spin this Pundit ? - I told you more than a year ago that it is over!

[RV Pundit]

And then gain what? Isaac Ruto was Chair and he was voted out - So was Munya. Chair of Governors is useless position. You should know that already. The winner will sit down with Ruto as per constitution and bring their issues there.

In that case Ruto should win this secret ballot hands down.

[Nefertiti]

Well Benji was MIA at Mumias as Didimas and Echesa squared out with the mboys. Miguna is a special case of GoK impunity not that I pity the man. He enjoys the attention too much. Of course it comical for Kuria and Tangatanga crew to demand his reprieve. The point is that impunity has come full circle.

Treason is different from holding a political rally. Why would Ben Washiali spend time in cell? He is more useful in parliament as Jubilee Chief Whip.

very rich. We warned you about this and many things - instead you celebrated Babu Owino and Miguna incarceration and harassment. Democracy is not a convenience - you either support or reject it all the time.

I am just a realist now. This coward should brave the bedbugs if he is a patriot. And yes Ruto is one of the worst things that could happen to Kenya.

[RV Pundit]

The embittered ODM point that everyone knows is simple. You're willing to let kenya drown simply because she has refused your man to lead her. You're the most dangerous threat to our democracy and progress..and we know it. That is why you're willing to remove term limits and undo all democratic gains. Nothing matters anymore. Your bitterness morphed into cynicism and recklessness.

Well Benji was MIA at Mumias as Didimas and Echesa squared out with the mboys. Miguna is a special case of GoK impunity not that I pity the man. He enjoys the attention too much. Of course it comical for Kuria and Tangatanga crew to demand his reprieve. The point is that impunity has come full circle.

Treason is different from holding a political rally. Why would Ben Washiali spend time in cell? He is more useful in parliament as Jubilee Chief Whip.

very rich. We warned you about this and many things - instead you celebrated Babu Owino and Miguna incarceration and harassment. Democracy is not a convenience - you either support or reject it all the time.

I am just a realist now. This coward should brave the bedbugs if he is a patriot. And yes Ruto is one of the worst things that could happen to Kenya.

[Nefertiti]

In short Ruto has no chance against Uhuru-Raila.

And then gain what? Isaac Ruto was Chair and he was voted out - So was Munya. Chair of Governors is useless position. You should know that already. The winner will sit down with Ruto as per constitution and bring their issues there.

In that case Ruto should win this secret ballot hands down.

[RV Pundit]

Of course except Uhuru is going home - and Raila has no chance against Ruto. Have a plan B - just in case Uhuru quietly retires as expected - because the mauling Ruto will deliver will be world class..

In short Ruto has no chance against Uhuru-Raila.

[Garliv]

@Robina,
1. My honest view is that Parliamentary system is the most unstable form of government anywhere. We may debate this till cows come home but Am yet to be convinced of its merit in an Africa setting.
Even in established democracies like UK, Italy, Apartheid Israel, Spain etc end up producing UNSTABLE governments which collapse regularly. If it were to be in Kenya then immediately after elections you'd have lots of cash exchanging hands to bring down the government. We would be heading to elections like every year. Then cronyism and need to bribe and kiss MPs asses would exponentially get worse. Then add the tribal aspect of Kenyan politics and the whole thing becomes incendiary. Very volatile.

Even Imperialists Americans know this. That is why why impose some parliamentary system on conquered countries because such countries are very difficult to rise again or be global powers. (UK has been only exception here). It is simply a bad system. Presidential system isn't problem free but it's better by far.

2. I understand where you are coming from as a Raila supporter. But to me i think Raila is mistaken if he truly believes Parliamentary system is good for him. It isn't. Even Oginga and Jomo conspired together to get rid of such a system in Kenya. And they were right.
In Kenya the "minorities" would actually be at the forefront leadership in a parliamentary system. It may surprise Uhuru/Raila when results for MP trickles in they find they simply have no numbers to do what they want.

3. Whereas we can disagree on politics and favourites politicians we should NOT disagree on some basic principles. That what Uhuru/Raila team are doing using State organs to intimidate and threaten POLITICAL OPPONENTS is wrong. Very wrong. It is evident that despite credentials for inhaling teargas and withstanding sometimes unwarranted police brutality, Raila doesn't mind so long the same is dished out to his political opponents.

[Garliv]

PUNDIT,
Again do not underestimate the will of the desperate: in this case Uhuru/Raila fighting to have their way. They simply don't seem to care if they mess the country or the economy to achieve their end. They are ready to force it. They can do whatever necessary to have referendum done by this year. They can expedite or cut corners. Ivory towers mentality. But do not underestimate their determination.
 

Of course except Uhuru is going home - and Raila has no chance against Ruto. Have a plan B - just in case Uhuru quietly retires as expected - because the mauling Ruto will deliver will be world class..

In short Ruto has no chance against Uhuru-Raila.

[Nefertiti]

Garliv,

Parliamentary for me has these merits

1. Equity and dilution of tyranny. The Kikuyu-Kalenjin monopoly is a major source of bad feelings of inequality among other groups not just Luos. Even in the imperial US you have the electoral college to manage tyranny. California and New York are Kikuyu and Kalenjin.

2. Accountability - separation of the ceremonial state from the daily government. Look at the UK where Boris Johnson has to account for his Brexit plans inch by inch. In Kenya lazy Kibaki signed off an island to a foreigner bila maswali. Even this harassment you are complaining about - Uhuru or Matiang'i are unaccoutable due to the opaqueness and impunity of the president. Uhuru talks to the media, MPs or judges when he chooses. Brat can't even be grilled. He alters bills and  needs supermajority to overule him. Peolple are accused of disrespecting him before the lynching. Imperial president is impunity 101. National policy should be properly debated and that should not be the preserve of State House. PM is grillable and challengeable. He does not veto laws and such extra-legal powers. He is accountable.

3. UK is not the only successful parliamentary system. 95% of the first world is parliamentary. UK, Canada, Germany, Japan, Aussie, NZ, Israel, etc. The US has anti-tyranny check.

4. Shortcomings can be fixed. Leader of the majority party or coalition is the automatic PM so no need for bribes. Jubilee would be Uhuru and to remove him Ruto crew would have to quit the party. You can't impeach PM but the entire party. Study the UK - I smell some ignorance. We would need good party discipline.

Regardless of the nuances - fixed terms, party elections, etc -  equity and accountability are ensured.

[Dear Mami]

That what Uhuru/Raila team are doing using State organs to intimidate and threaten POLITICAL OPPONENTS is wrong. Very wrong. It is evident that despite credentials for inhaling teargas and withstanding sometimes unwarranted police brutality, Raila doesn't mind so long the same is dished out to his political opponents.

With due respect, where were these concerns when it was UhuRuto abusing state machinery to intimidate opposition? When baby Pendo and Msando died? When the Supreme Court was threatened with impunity and the DCJ's own body guard shot? Where were these concerns when Orengo warned your side to tone down the hubris and not support impunity as the same thing could be turned around and used against them when it suited the interests of whoever wielded power? Please don't let me do the work of finding examples of the kinds of posts that were being posted then, the eagerness to see Luo blood on the streets. I'm sorry, but my attitude is: Cry me a river. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Besides, what do you want? You saw what Raila used to do to resist impunity: you guys have legs to march and mouths to protest. Go ahead. No one is stopping you.

[Kichwa]

Exactly! a bunch of hypocrites now pretending to be principled. They do not care about democracy.  We tried the presidential system and it is not working, so we are going to try a hybrid and see how that goes.  Every country is unique and should experiment until it finds a system that is stable. Our parliamentary system will not be the same as UK or Isreal, and we are not UK, Isreal or America.

That what Uhuru/Raila team are doing using State organs to intimidate and threaten POLITICAL OPPONENTS is wrong. Very wrong. It is evident that despite credentials for inhaling teargas and withstanding sometimes unwarranted police brutality, Raila doesn't mind so long the same is dished out to his political opponents.

With due respect, where were these concerns when it was UhuRuto abusing state machinery to intimidate opposition? When baby Pendo and Msando died? When the Supreme Court was threatened with impunity and the DCJ's own body guard shot? Where were these concerns when Orengo warned your side to tone down the hubris and not support impunity as the same thing could be turned around and used against them when it suited the interests of whoever wielded power? Please don't let me do the work of finding examples of the kinds of posts that were being posted then, the eagerness to see Luo blood on the streets. I'm sorry, but my attitude is: Cry me a river. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Besides, what do you want? You saw what Raila used to do to resist impunity: you guys have legs to match and mouths to protest. Go ahead. No one is stopping you.

[Garliv]

And debate gets hysterical!

1. NASA demonstrations/protests became nothing more than thuggery and goonery masquerading as political protests. They were lawless and destruction of property and violence was the norm. It was pure sabotage and no longer political protest. Therefore I was one of those who supported crackdown, arrests and other tactics to bring sanity into the capital. No one denied them the right to disagree with Jubilee or protest claimed rigging or go to court which they did. That is not comparable with current instigated arrests and other tactics because a politician disagree with BBI. Comparing the two is not reasonable.

2. Msando and Baby Pendo are act of criminality. They should be, and should have been investigated to their logical end. You cannot heap all imaginable acts of crimes to justify political points. Msando was obviously stealing sex from a  22yrs old and may have been hit in such love triangle. Claims that he was killed to "enable" rigging do not pass common sense test. This is a classic conspiracy theory. How would elimination of Msando ALONE in an institution like IEBC be the ONLY CRITERIA TO ENABLE RIGGING? Then in that case we should blame whoever took the role of Msando at IEBC as the culprit who allegedly rigged! Baby Pendo could or could not have been killed by a stray police bullet. It would make little sense to kill Baby Pendo when police had plenty of legitimate goons to target. But point being those are issues that need proper investigation. Maybe Raila will get time out of BBI to concentrate on it now that he's defacto PM. Point is, don't conflate issues which are not even related.

And no, i won't support Ruto or TangaTanga should they adopt NASA lawlessness.

That what Uhuru/Raila team are doing using State organs to intimidate and threaten POLITICAL OPPONENTS is wrong. Very wrong. It is evident that despite credentials for inhaling teargas and withstanding sometimes unwarranted police brutality, Raila doesn't mind so long the same is dished out to his political opponents.

With due respect, where were these concerns when it was UhuRuto abusing state machinery to intimidate opposition? When baby Pendo and Msando died? When the Supreme Court was threatened with impunity and the DCJ's own body guard shot? Where were these concerns when Orengo warned your side to tone down the hubris and not support impunity as the same thing could be turned around and used against them when it suited the interests of whoever wielded power? Please don't let me do the work of finding examples of the kinds of posts that were being posted then, the eagerness to see Luo blood on the streets. I'm sorry, but my attitude is: Cry me a river. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Besides, what do you want? You saw what Raila used to do to resist impunity: you guys have legs to march and mouths to protest. Go ahead. No one is stopping you.

[Garliv]

Lets disagree on merits of Parliamentary System. Even the UK is on the verge of splitting because of this Parliamentary System. And don't even mention Brexit in relation to Parliamentary system. It has been turned into chaotic shambles because of Parliamentary system. It has become damn expensive and protracted because of this system. Indeed, if UK was as ethnically diverse an African country the whole country would be at civil war.

Germany was conquered and parliamentary system imposed on them so as to keep check on them. It's still an American occupied territory. Apartheid Israel is even constitutionally declared a monolithic Jewish State and yet they have difficulties forming governments. US imposed parliamentary system in Iraq (a more ethnically diverse nation) to keep it chaotic. It will spend the next 100yrs before they decide Presidential would be more uniting. Australia, NZ and Canada exterminated local inhabitants and made those countries almost mono ethnic.

If US had a Parliamentary system, they would be sacking their leader every two months especially given the power of lobbies of all sorts. Money would be dictating more than it does at the moment.

Garliv,

Parliamentary for me has these merits

1. Equity and dilution of tyranny. The Kikuyu-Kalenjin monopoly is a major source of bad feelings of inequality among other groups not just Luos. Even in the imperial US you have the electoral college to manage tyranny. California and New York are Kikuyu and Kalenjin.

2. Accountability - separation of the ceremonial state from the daily government. Look at the UK where Boris Johnson has to account for his Brexit plans inch by inch. In Kenya lazy Kibaki signed off an island to a foreigner bila maswali. Even this harassment you are complaining about - Uhuru or Matiang'i are unaccoutable due to the opaqueness and impunity of the president. Uhuru talks to the media, MPs or judges when he chooses. Brat can't even be grilled. He alters bills and  needs supermajority to overule him. Peolple are accused of disrespecting him before the lynching. Imperial president is impunity 101. National policy should be properly debated and that should not be the preserve of State House. PM is grillable and challengeable. He does not veto laws and such extra-legal powers. He is accountable.

3. UK is not the only successful parliamentary system. 95% of the first world is parliamentary. UK, Canada, Germany, Japan, Aussie, NZ, Israel, etc. The US has anti-tyranny check.

4. Shortcomings can be fixed. Leader of the majority party or coalition is the automatic PM so no need for bribes. Jubilee would be Uhuru and to remove him Ruto crew would have to quit the party. You can't impeach PM but the entire party. Study the UK - I smell some ignorance. We would need good party discipline.

Regardless of the nuances - fixed terms, party elections, etc -  equity and accountability are ensured.

[Dear Mami]

Msando was obviously stealing sex from a  22yrs old and may have been hit in such love triangle. Claims that he was killed to "enable" rigging do not pass common sense test. This is a classic conspiracy theory.

 

Baby Pendo could or could not have been killed by a stray police bullet.

No word about brazen Supreme Court intimidation, I see, amidst these entertaining ideas about Msando and baby Pendo (whose skull was cracked by a police rungu as they descended on a residential area, raping and brutalizing as if they were handling animals).

Like I said, cry me a river!

[RV Pundit]

They want a parliamentary system yet they fear the current parliament as being under Ruto spell.Its hilarious.You want a parliamentary system vis universal suffrage when you can test run it vis parliament

[Nefertiti]

On the contrary we want the 1963 Lancaster constitution aka the Bomas Draft. Before greedy, corrupt Jomo and Moi soiled it. I have objective reasons for pushing the federal parliamentary system. In fact we are okay with Raila losing out on the ultimate prize and winding up as ceremonial president. Letting Uhuru in as Executive Prime Minister - your hitherto hero - is a minor price to pay for reforms.

You on the other hand tell us with glee how everyone is on Ruto's retainer. You want presidential but whine about the current president's impunity. Blinkers kweli.

No, Kenya will not drown. William Ruto will.

The embittered ODM point that everyone knows is simple. You're willing to let kenya drown simply because she has refused your man to lead her. You're the most dangerous threat to our democracy and progress..and we know it. That is why you're willing to remove term limits and undo all democratic gains. Nothing matters anymore. Your bitterness morphed into cynicism and recklessness.

[Nefertiti]

Raila is co-president



https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2001357122/raila-is-uhuru-s-new-mr-fix-it

[Kichwa]

You live by the sword, you die by the sword.  Ruto has never led  a national presidential campaign out fit and he is about to find out what it takes to run at the head of a ticket.  There is going to be a lot of incoming. This is  nothing compared with what is going to come.  Unfortunately for him there is more material to be used to go after him than Ouru or Raila. Ruto went after Raila hard but Raila had a lot of cover from his years as a 2nd liberation fighter.  RAO was inoculated by a strong history of fighting for the liberation of Kenyas democractic space and his ten years stint in Jail to show.  Ruto has no such cover, infact he is seen as the face of corruption and many bad acts. Without Ouru to cover him, he is very vulnerable and he needs needs buffalo skin. Like Pundit used to remind us when the shoe was on the other foot, "this is real politic".

Raila is co-president



https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2001357122/raila-is-uhuru-s-new-mr-fix-it

[gout]

It will be interesting what Raila's selling point will be with Ruto and his gang starting to earn pro democracy credentials of being teargassed. 

[Dear Mami]

It will be interesting what Raila's selling point will be with Ruto and his gang starting to earn pro democracy credentials of being teargassed.

Gout, do you honestly think pro-democracy groups and non-Gema Raila supporters will think Ruto is the new liberator because he's fighting to be president against greedy Kamwana, his fellow thief-in-chief? Wanjiku is not very clever but don't assume she's that silly. We know Ruto is fighting for Ruto, not Kenya. So we will be entertained and see who between him and Kamwana really out-wolfs the other, that's all. So far, Kamwana has the instruments of power and mwananchi is already familiar with his bad side, hakuna big unknowns like Mr. Ruto. He gets +1 on that latter point.

[gout]

There are a sizable young voters who never saw raila the pro democrat and are living through these current teargas dramas. Pro democracy has been quite a selling point to Raila and yes, the voters are silly and are likely to buying the persecuted narrative. Humans usually treat underdogs with kid gloves. Raila has reaped from this in all his political career except in 2013 he was outsmarted in his persecuted narrative.

It will be interesting what Raila's selling point will be with Ruto and his gang starting to earn pro democracy credentials of being teargassed.

Gout, do you honestly think pro-democracy groups and non-Gema Raila supporters will think Ruto is the new liberator because he's fighting to be president against greedy Kamwana, his fellow thief-in-chief? Wanjiku is not very clever but don't assume she's that silly. We know Ruto is fighting for Ruto, not Kenya. So we will be entertained and see who between him and Kamwana really out-wolfs the other, that's all. So far, Kamwana has the instruments of power and mwananchi is already familiar with his bad side, hakuna big unknowns like Mr. Ruto. He gets +1 on that latter point.