Author Topic: 2017 - Rough MOAS : Improving turn out in NASA stronghold won't help.  (Read 87427 times)

Offline Omollo

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Re: Rough MOAS : Improving turn out in NASA stronghold won't help.
« Reply #60 on: May 31, 2017, 02:47:52 PM »
Totally get it. Yeah Unga is big and perception that Jubilee is 2-tribe arrangment also valid. Unga was Uhuru biggest threat to second time so he has respond to that.
How has he responded to it? By accusing Raila of hiding Unga? Or claiming that in 2011 Raila sent GSU to beat up Unga demonstrators and tear gassed them?

Or is it the Mexican Unga which he now claims was imported by Raila friendly Wahindis after he and Ruto took full credit in the name of the government?

Please get your message together. Your enemies have began to sympathise with your confusion.
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline Kadame5

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Re: Rough MOAS : Improving turn out in NASA stronghold won't help.
« Reply #61 on: May 31, 2017, 02:48:35 PM »
Omollo, me I'm thinking that NASA has more numbers, the only thing I'm readjusting is the gap I thought there was. I think NASA must concentrate on GOTV. Please, if you know the insiders, tell them the game is to get NASA people at the polling stations on 08/08. If they vote, Jubilee goes home. It's that simple. If they don't vote, Jubilee may sneak by with their massive turnouts. People must vote. Pure and simple. I want to see someone else take a stab at governance. Praying so.

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Rough MOAS : Improving turn out in NASA stronghold won't help.
« Reply #62 on: May 31, 2017, 02:56:54 PM »
At least you've tried to comeback to reality. Now as you look keenly at the battle-ground counties (where Raila HAD slight advantage - due to incumbency); also re-look the so called strongholds. 30%/70% spread is too wide in an election where winner will win by less than 10%.

If you look at the stronghold - Uhuru has 12 counties where he won by more than 90%..(round off Embu). In NASA stronghold Raila only does that in 6 counties. Uhuru has couple of 80s and just two 70s. Raila has 4 counties he score 70% or less; another 7 in 80% range.

Therefore as you can see Uhuru stronghold are more tight - his average support is tending towards 90% in this loosely defined "strongholds"- Raila support is tending toward 80%

This is why all these are rough MOAS --- they are not accurate in tight election.

When I do my refined MOAS - I'll use const breakdown and that is when you really nail the specifics. Counties do not really capture our tribal make up - as much as const  do - for example look at Migori - unlike other Luo counties - where Raila scored 97% - he scores 86% in Migori due to Kuria West & East Const voting 50-50.

After get you 2013 baseline correct....then adjust to realities of 2017 -- this won't be exact replica - there are different dynamics for this - and that is where MOAS has to predict based on evidence adduced where people will likely to vote.

Kadame

Let me indulge you and Pundit:

So let's just say any place (county) where the losing candidate got below 30% is a stronghold of the winner. Thi9s was the original defintion of "Stronghold" before it proved awry for Jubilee pundits and they dumped it for "shifting grounds".

Let's go to work: Here is what I found: (it is done in a hurry and there could be some errors).



So where is NASA is trouble? If you look at the % of the battleground counties, Raila won 9 out of 11. It means he gets most of the remaining 4M battleground votes in any Pundit-prepared MOAS where the 2013 % is factored. He can't cook figures (not that he hasn't done before!)

Pundit ana mchezo wake.









Offline Kadame5

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Re: Rough MOAS : Improving turn out in NASA stronghold won't help.
« Reply #63 on: May 31, 2017, 03:03:44 PM »
Pundit, Omollo, it was asked before:where are you guys getting your data for the current registration? I also want to know!  :)

Offline Omollo

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Re: Rough MOAS : Improving turn out in NASA stronghold won't help.
« Reply #64 on: May 31, 2017, 03:09:59 PM »
Kadame

in 2013 by some fluke or design, CORD never sent a single agent to Jubilee areas. In some areas close by in RV, volunteers were scrambled late in the evening finding some of the polling stations already closed.

The man responsible for that was Eric Owalo and he was bought and paid for by Jubilee. He not only pocketed CORD money (Agents allowances, Car rental fees. accommodation etc) he also received a hefty payout from NIS and Jubilee to not send agents. He then misled CORD and Raila for most of the day, staying close to ensure all complaints went through him.

On examination, all the Jubilee areas where CORD had agents had what you can call "normal" turnouts. There are certain areas which because of enthusiasm, the turnout can be 100% minus the dead. Sick people about to die are known to be wheelbarrowed in to polling stations to vote before they die on their way back home.

However we believe there was stuffing.

For this year, we are prepared for NASA agents to be harassed by the police.  They will be arrested, denied access and all the known tricks to facilitate cheating.

We know the NIS working with Safaricom has set up some interception centre between the IEBC and the ROs. To me those issues are more important than turnout. 97% turnout is possible in the home counties of the candidates but not outside.

NASA will need to appeal to voters to save their own lives and kick out Jubilee or starve. They will turn out to vote. But NASA has a duty to prevent vote stuffing in the name of 99& turnout.
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline Omollo

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Re: Rough MOAS : Improving turn out in NASA stronghold won't help.
« Reply #65 on: May 31, 2017, 03:13:54 PM »
Are you joking? 30% of votes in would not amount to 10% of the national vote. I think you are pushing the envelope to give Jubilee the maximum advantage.

Why don't you start with the battleground counties and show us who gets most of those based on their 2013 performance?

At least you've tried to comeback to reality. Now as you look keenly at the battle-ground counties (where Raila HAD slight advantage - due to incumbency); also re-look the so called strongholds. 30%/70% spread is too wide in an election where winner will win by less than 10%.

If you look at the stronghold - Uhuru has 12 counties where he won by more than 90%..(round off Embu). In NASA stronghold Raila only does that in 6 counties. Uhuru has couple of 80s and just two 70s. Raila has 4 counties he score 70% or less; another 7 in 80% range.

Therefore as you can see Uhuru stronghold are more tight - his average support is tending towards 90% in this loosely defined "strongholds"- Raila support is tending toward 80%

This is why all these are rough MOAS --- they are not accurate in tight election.

When I do my refined MOAS - I'll use const breakdown and that is when you really nail the specifics. Counties do not really capture our tribal make up - as much as const  do - for example look at Migori - unlike other Luo counties - where Raila scored 97% - he scores 86% in Migori due to Kuria West & East Const voting 50-50.

After get you 2013 baseline correct....then adjust to realities of 2017 -- this won't be exact replica - there are different dynamics for this - and that is where MOAS has to predict based on evidence adduced where people will likely to vote.
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline Omollo

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Re: Rough MOAS : Improving turn out in NASA stronghold won't help.
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2017, 03:16:03 PM »
Pundit, Omollo, it was asked before:where are you guys getting your data for the current registration? I also want to know!  :)
the IEBC posted the stuff online awhile ago. It is here is some thread if you dig. I think its also available to IEBC but I don't access the IEBC on relatively insecure computers. So won't help you. Pundit had a link recently.
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline Kadame5

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Re: Rough MOAS : Improving turn out in NASA stronghold won't help.
« Reply #67 on: May 31, 2017, 03:26:19 PM »
Oh, I found a link here--County and constituency: https://softkenya.com/kenya/iebc-registered-voters/

I hope it's credible.

EDIT: This is just someone else's MOAS. Woi, I can't find the primary data.

I can't go through all those 2013 constituency results though.

Another key factor which we have no way of dealing with here is the ethnic distribution of the new voters (around 3.5 M) especially in battle ground areas.

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Rough MOAS : Improving turn out in NASA stronghold won't help.
« Reply #68 on: May 31, 2017, 03:29:28 PM »
I think you are pretending not to understand what I wrote up there.

We will get to the details of what I think happened in 2013 and what will happened in 2017...this of course will be very contentious.

I am convinced Uhuru will win the battleground this time round. Turkana is going to that battleground group.  Let us have the final cleaned and audited register and we can start working on each of those areas.

I also cannot do this without breakdown const per const .

We will have refined and then final MOAS pretty before mid July.

Are you joking? 30% of votes in would not amount to 10% of the national vote. I think you are pushing the envelope to give Jubilee the maximum advantage.

Why don't you start with the battleground counties and show us who gets most of those based on their 2013 performance?

Offline Omollo

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Re: Rough MOAS : Improving turn out in NASA stronghold won't help.
« Reply #69 on: May 31, 2017, 03:52:45 PM »
At least you've tried to comeback to reality. Now as you look keenly at the battle-ground counties (where Raila HAD slight advantage - due to incumbency); also re-look the so called strongholds. 30%/70% spread is too wide in an election where winner will win by less than 10%.
Incumbency in Kenya offers no advantages. Perhaps we should discuss that exhaust and settle it once and for all so you can stop citing it. Uhur cannot blame anybody for the Unga Crisi try as he may. It is his baby. During the 2013 elections, Uhuru managed to position himself as not being part of the government - even while Deputy Prime Minister. Raila made a blunder to own up incumbency, thus Julie Gichuru could ask Uhuru how he would solve a problem that Raila as PM had not managed to address, "despite being in government".

Historically Ronald Reagan always made sure he ran against his own government. He positioned himself as an outsider while California Governor and President. I have yet to see anybody who has benefitted from being the incumbent. Perhaps the use or state resources, spying on opponents etc (all illegal but normal in Kenya).

I think Under 30% is quite OK. Even if you go to 40% Raila would still carry a majority of the battlegrounds.

Quote
If you look at the stronghold - Uhuru has 12 counties where he won by more than 90%..(round off Embu). In NASA stronghold Raila only does that in 6 counties. Uhuru has couple of 80s and just two 70s. Raila has 4 counties he score 70% or less; another 7 in 80% range.
At the time Jubilee had more registered voters in its areas than CORD (only that Hassan revealed that after the elections!) I don't see how that argument holds water.

Vote stuffing will be limited. Unless you go to manual voting again, I don't see how you'll get those crazy 90s

Quote
Therefore as you can see Uhuru stronghold are more tight - his average support is tending towards 90% in this loosely defined "strongholds"- Raila support is tending toward 80%
It is not the % turnout alone but the number of registered voters as well. One can get 99% in Marsabit which is cancelled by 80% in Kakamega. The bottomline is that NASA has more voters. They came because NASA managed to mobilize them to get out and register. It is likely that they will also turnout to vote in equally increased numbers. There is a clear connection or correlation.

Quote
This is why all these are rough MOAS --- they are not accurate in tight election.
No MOAS is accurate in a country where the electoral commission works hand in glove with the ruling party, the secret police and the leading telecoms company.

Quote
When I do my refined MOAS - I'll use const breakdown and that is when you really nail the specifics. Counties do not really capture our tribal make up - as much as const  do - for example look at Migori - unlike other Luo counties - where Raila scored 97% - he scores 86% in Migori due to Kuria West & East Const voting 50-50.
This was an anti-Machage vote. Machage is out

Quote
After get you 2013 baseline correct....then adjust to realities of 2017 -- this won't be exact replica - there are different dynamics for this - and that is where MOAS has to predict based on evidence adduced where people will likely to vote.
That is when Pundit will "shift the ground", Cite Mvurya and Mung'aro, throw in Jirongo and Ababu Namwamba, May be Kalausi party in South Nyanza, Predict Nyagarama will defect to Jubilee in Kisii and cite the discredited Nyachae Family.

You will cook and cook until Jubilee emerges the winner.

It's like a football team scores 5 goals in an empty goal post and then goes to the field to demonstrate how the players dodged passed and then scored. Let the outcome you desire not determine or lead the process. Follow the process and accept whatever outcome.

That is Pundit's weakness: Having decided Jubilee will win, he will twist facts, violate logic, trample on his own past statements and principles before he comes with a conclusion that well, says Jubilee wins!
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline Omollo

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Re: Rough MOAS : Improving turn out in NASA stronghold won't help.
« Reply #70 on: May 31, 2017, 03:57:21 PM »
Uhuru can win Turkana easily. All he has to do is recant the legislation he imposed on Parliament and let Turkana keep 10% of their oil revenue and not the 5% he forced on them.

What are the chances that you discover oil in Bomet and President Raila overrules parliament's offer of 10% of the revenue and imposes 5% and you go out of your way to vote for him?

The problem with you is that you choose what you think is important and veer over deadly issues. Oil is Africa is the stuff of rebellions and ignoring the feelings of the Turkana did in Jubilee. There is nothing anybody is talking about there.

The Turkana Government and Nanok have mobilized International support like you have never seen.

I can't see how else you can do it without cheating if you will not apply the % of the vote obtained in 2013. If you do that I can already tell you Raila wins hands down. I have it already done here and will simply adjust for the refined figures.

I think you are pretending not to understand what I wrote up there.

We will get to the details of what I think happened in 2013 and what will happened in 2017...this of course will be very contentious.

I am convinced Uhuru will win the battleground this time round. Turkana is going to that battleground group.  Let us have the final cleaned and audited register and we can start working on each of those areas.

I also cannot do this without breakdown const per const .

We will have refined and then final MOAS pretty before mid July.

Are you joking? 30% of votes in would not amount to 10% of the national vote. I think you are pushing the envelope to give Jubilee the maximum advantage.

Why don't you start with the battleground counties and show us who gets most of those based on their 2013 performance?
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Rough MOAS : Improving turn out in NASA stronghold won't help.
« Reply #71 on: May 31, 2017, 04:08:14 PM »
Someone,

Please cite a legitimate source for the data.  Preferably one you can pull into a spreadsheet.  I can't find anything from even IEBC that seems up to date.  Their data seems different from anything I have seen here, maybe dated and is obviously in the process of being "cleaned".

It's hard to keep up when all we have are images of numbers.
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Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Rough MOAS : Improving turn out in NASA stronghold won't help.
« Reply #72 on: May 31, 2017, 06:01:44 PM »
In other words, share your sources.  This is not supposed to be a secret.  Upload a file.  Maybe a link to scribd.  If the data can be verified, and also extracted into a spreadsheet it's simply easier for someone to dissect it for further insights.

As an example this image shared by Pundit differs from IEBC data.  The IEBC site has Nyandarua with 283,205 registered voters.  Nyeri 390,882.  Kiambu has 947,599 etc.  I am assuming this is outdated.  I need to know where to get the up to date stuff. 


"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

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Offline Omollo

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Re: Rough MOAS : Improving turn out in NASA stronghold won't help.
« Reply #73 on: May 31, 2017, 06:08:13 PM »
I posted the preliminary IEBC totals here or at choo.com
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Rough MOAS : Improving turn out in NASA stronghold won't help.
« Reply #74 on: May 31, 2017, 06:28:11 PM »
I posted the preliminary IEBC totals here or at choo.com

Do you have the link?
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

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Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Rough MOAS : Improving turn out in NASA stronghold won't help.
« Reply #75 on: May 31, 2017, 06:58:18 PM »
Pundit

You got it right in 2002 so did I and many others (No rigging)
In 2007 - You got it right and so did we all - stolen (we all agree on that)
in 2013 - You claim to have got it right. Was not here. I delved in to it and found rigging. You refuse to even entertain the idea and become technicalist referring to the courts and all the officialdom
2017 - You and I are in opposing camps. That is crunch time to determine who between us is The Real Pundit.

Boasting about your past and re-writing it to give yourself invincibility will not help you.

You look at the figures and facts and so do I. More than you. You have an eye for detail so do and I beat you on stamina and singular devotion to a cause any time. So I say may the best Pundit win

The people you mention, PK etc, did not calculate rigging in their propositions. I do. If I reach a point where I am convinced the rigging would overcome NASA or that Jubilee would preponderate, I will state so. For now the momentum is with NASA and Jubilee is in doldrums. Any polls showing Jubilee in 60% now or in future are plain lies.

I would be very surprised if either gets over 55% in the first or second round.

Factors I am watching for:

1. A sudden huge injection of illicit funds by Jubilee which is not countered by NASA
2. A major fallout within NASA which lasts a week before it is settled
3. Vote suppression using violence (indiscriminate nightly mass killings in NASA zones) which has been in the planning since Moi was visited by Mama Ngina
4. Jubilee regains total control over the voter database with the capacity to move voters and mark any as already voted

As of now every one of the people Uhuru trusts with cash to dish out is a thief. So NASA has not had to do much to counter that. However should they use plan D which is to find old KANU networks of old men, we have working antidotes for that as well.

NASA is not making enough noise about the sacking of the IT director and why. That is a disappointment but I think Mudavadi wrote to them with specific demands and we shall await their response.




 
I have been in this game for quite some time enough to cook them figures. I have been predicting Kenyan elections & referendum in rcb, nipate.com & now here for nearly 15 yrs now. Every election or referendum I get folks like you who come up here trying to just quote figures and come election time they all disappear.

Last election - PuaKal , Luo Kenya, Pajero and wakina kichwa - shouted horse and promptly disappeared.

We are only 2 months to d-day. After final register of voters is released - I'll give my final figures as always  - and we shall see again - I am pretty sure I'll get a few places wrong - but overally I'll get it right - coz I understand our politics in and out.

I know you'll re-appear here with rigging conspiracy saying I knew the numbers ...like predicted to a dot many of 2013 results - I only missed western (though MaDVD/Wamalwa would do better in BGM&KKM) and the turn out was nothing like I have seen.

I agree with the broad dimensions of what you say.  Especially about relying on a previous rigged outcome to predict a future election, presumably free of rigging.  When I acknowledge something as rigged, I generally ignore it, as a source of any meaningful information - except perhaps to highlight that fact.  That does not mean I can ignore the fact that the elements that enable such an outcome as still intact.

Still, when I look at 2013, while I suspect that a runoff was rigged away, I am not sure if Raila could have won it.  The party numbers in parliament seem to suggest the outcome was close to what the final would have been anyway.  That is more so, when you consider that jubilant areas, except parts of RV, are generally underrepresented.  In spite of being underrepresented, they still won more seats.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

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Offline Kadame5

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Re: Rough MOAS : Improving turn out in NASA stronghold won't help.
« Reply #76 on: June 01, 2017, 06:48:20 AM »
Here is my rough preliminary projection: if Jubilee turnout is 90% against NASA's 80%, they win. If NASA's is 85%, NASA win. The job is to get NASA out to the voting booths.

Offline Omollo

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Re: Rough MOAS : Improving turn out in NASA stronghold won't help.
« Reply #77 on: June 01, 2017, 02:03:03 PM »
I agree with the broad dimensions of what you say.  Especially about relying on a previous rigged outcome to predict a future election, presumably free of rigging.  When I acknowledge something as rigged, I generally ignore it, as a source of any meaningful information - except perhaps to highlight that fact.  That does not mean I can ignore the fact that the elements that enable such an outcome as still intact.

Still, when I look at 2013, while I suspect that a runoff was rigged away, I am not sure if Raila could have won it.  The party numbers in parliament seem to suggest the outcome was close to what the final would have been anyway.  That is more so, when you consider that jubilant areas, except parts of RV, are generally underrepresented.  In spite of being underrepresented, they still won more seats.
The runoff, in my personal subjective opinion was the last thing Uhuru wanted.

Uhuru won in the first round by about 8K votes. CORD proved that over 8K votes had been wrongly credited to Uhuru by the iEBC. There was more evidence showing even more egregious theft by the IEBC. This is common knowledge for those who have bothered to delve in to the rigging of the 2013 elections.

It is unlikely that CORD would have left polling stations in Central to be stuffed so freely. Some of the tricks employed by the IEBC and NIS would have been harder to repeat. Mudavadi would have been out of the race and he could not dare tell his 400K voters (most Luhyas in Western and Diaspora) to vote for Uhuru.

Uhuru had run out of money forcing the NIS to steal money from the National Bank pretending it was for the Police
 
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline Omollo

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Re: Rough MOAS : Improving turn out in NASA stronghold won't help.
« Reply #78 on: June 01, 2017, 02:19:09 PM »
Here is my rough preliminary projection: if Jubilee turnout is 90% against NASA's 80%, they win. If NASA's is 85%, NASA win. The job is to get NASA out to the voting booths.
Kadame

This is how it works:

1. When rigging is the objective, you can raise your turnout to 80 and they will artificially raise their to 90 and if you hit 90 they will shamelessly hit 100% and above.
2. To avoid the Kibaki shame of 2007 where they had to stuff boxes to 120% of the registered voters, the NIS gains access to the database and inflates the registered voters in any location it needs them.

We are fighting to deny the NIS access to the database. We know that after they found that difficult, they are setting up a kind of Interceptor between the ROs and the IEBC in Bomas. They will doctor or send their own well prepared "results" to a hapless IEBC

Tell me whether raising the turnout is still the answer? Each year, GEMA hands the opposition a mirage to run after. They are assisted by fake polls, engineered "divisions" and all the crap that Moi used to hand them when he kept them in the cold for 24 years!

Falling for them is the problem.

The truth is that apart from Gatundu (Kiambu) turnout was not any higher than in CORD areas.

Here is food for thought:

Did you know that after 2002 elections the number of voters in Central nearly doubled?
Did you know that the number of voters for 2007 was higher than 2013 and that
Central is the only place in Kenya where the number of voters actually decreased between elections?

Please study the figures and understand that we are not in elections. We are fighting an entrenched system which if it loses the elections, will resort to other measures to maintain power. Please stop being naive Kadame.
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline Kadame5

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Re: Rough MOAS : Improving turn out in NASA stronghold won't help.
« Reply #79 on: June 01, 2017, 02:42:12 PM »
But Omollo, its not naivety to be prepared on both fronts. You fight the entrenchment AND you get people out to vote. I'm just saying we must get our people to the booths on that day. I'm not saying that there is nothing else to be on the lookout for..... Remember I said earlier that my projections are all predicated on the presumption of a clean election: In Kenya, that is a YUGE assumption to make; but thats all lay people can do with the available data. Those deep-state games are not easy to put on the table unless youre an insider