Africa To Europe: The Endless Mediterranean Tragedy

[vooke]

The real victim here are the European countries that have to make do with the immigrants. Keep them off. admitting irregular immigrants is just about as effective as advertising on a billboard. Negro needs some brutality I tell you. Hospitality I can guarantee you is what has fueled the attempts more than desperation back home

That is callous.  It shouldn't matter why they left in the first place.  I think they should rescue and rehabilitate those folks who they can save.  I feel that is the least one can or should die trying to do for them.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

The real victim here are the European countries that have to make do with the immigrants. Keep them off. admitting irregular immigrants is just about as effective as advertising on a billboard. Negro needs some brutality I tell you. Hospitality I can guarantee you is what has fueled the attempts more than desperation back home

That is callous.  It shouldn't matter why they left in the first place.  I think they should rescue and rehabilitate those folks who they can save.  I feel that is the least one can or should die trying to do for them.

Hehehe...show me one example of a European country that has lost out because of migrants and I will show you a flying pig.  If a muzungu can go to Nairobi seeking opportunities(legal or otherwise) then  he has no moral authority to stop the Negro from doing the same in his country.

[MOON Ki]

That is callous.  It shouldn't matter why they left in the first place.  I think they should rescue and rehabilitate those folks who they can save.  I feel that is the least one can or should die trying to do for them.

Very callous.  Lasting solutions must be sought, but in the meantime these are people dying, not insects.

[MOON Ki]

Hehehe...show me one example of a European country that has lost out because of migrants and I will show you a flying pig.  If a muzungu can go to Nairobi seeking opportunities(legal or otherwise) then  he has no moral authority to stop the Negro from doing the same in his country.

Absolutely.    Moreover, the economic benefits to the host country of migration are by now generally established, although xenophobia inevitably leads to denial of the same.

I think the issue here is not that of people trying to migrate for better economic opportunities; many people do that, including quite a few of us posting here.    The real issues are: (a) the conditions that have forced them to take such a desperate path, (b) the human traffickers who have taken advantage of such desperation, and (c) what happens to them once they are in the water.

(a) and (b) should be handled mostly on the continent.   (c) to be handled mostly on the EU side, but much can also be done on the other side, at the water's edge. 

The real problem right now is that nobody is doing all that is necessary.   Given that, my view is that first step is for Africans to look out for fellow Africans and not expect a lot from Europeans.

[RV Pundit]

Economic refugees are not any different from war refugees. What you can never do if you're human is to send them back or let them die on shore. That is criminal. If we can host Somalis..Italy can host those Africans.

You cannot tell Somalis or Ethiopia running away to go fix their country. Neither can we blame the victim of war or poverty. It like slamming the door on fleeing Somalis because it become a political potato to handle more somalis.

UNHCR was started for this purpose. Italy just need to establish a refugee camp and have UN go there and feed those people. You cannot drown people or leave them to drown.

When those economic refugees are in the camp, the UN (if Italy is broke), will feed, clothe and relocate them...including back to their country...

The right wing nonsense taking root in Europe has no place in modern era. Moonki and Vooke should be very ashamed supporting these.

By the time Africans fix the problem...and that will take a lot of time...those people will dead. They do not need to die because we have UNITED NATION COMMISSION OF REFUGEES.
 
What South Africa or Italy or Kenya or US need to do is simple. Enforce border controls. And build refugees camps at border where one will only be allowed to eat and sleep..until someone is willing take them or conditions in their home countries have improved they want to go back.

Nobody has said refugees deserves jobs...or citizen rights..but they deserve at bare minimum to be kept alive.

[MOON Ki]

Economic refugees are not any different from war refugees. What you can never do if you're human is to send them back or let them die on shore. That is criminal. If we can host Somalis..Italy can host those Africans.

A very large number of people actually do make it across the waters.  But Italy does not necessarily host them, nor does it need to: many of them end up in other European countries.

You cannot tell Somalis or Ethiopia running away to go fix their country.

Again, you are getting carried away.   The call is not for those fleeing to go fix their countries; it is for those responsible for those countries to do some fixing so that their people do not end up in such desperate straits.   Ultimately, that is what will have to happen.

The right wing nonsense taking root in Europe has no place in modern era. Moonki and Vooke should be very ashamed supporting these.

You need to ditch the emotional claptrap and read more carefully what I have written.   

By the time Africans fix the problem...and that will take a lot of time...those people will die.

Now you have managed to confuse even yourself.   Just a few posting ago, you wrote that:

"The developed world has to do MORE in Africa...to stem the invetiable immigration. They can begin by genuinely helping Africans like Chinese are doing."

How long will your "genuine Chinese help" take?   Will it be quicker than African countries dealing with their human-traffickers?

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Meanwhile, the religion of peace is not to be outdone by nature.  Never missing an opportunity to preach peace.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/ethiopian-christians-beheaded-and-shot-by-isis-were-migrants-hoping-to-reach-uk-and-europe-10191409.html

[RV Pundit]

What you've written is shameful nonsense. That until Africans (leaders) fix their countries..these people running away deserve no mercy or generosity!.

African leaders or whoever need to fix their countries is a NON ISSUE as far as war or economic refugees are concern.

The immediate concern is why are people being let to drown month in month out....by a civilized nation called Italy.

You need to ditch the emotional claptrap and read more carefully what I have written.   

[MOON Ki]

What you've written is shameful nonsense. That until Africans (leaders) fix their countries..these people running away deserve no mercy or generosity!.

Nowhere have I stated or implied that they deserve no mercy or generosity; such is what I call emotional claptrap.

Nor have I stated that African leaders must first fix their countries; what I have stated is that in the long term that will be the real solution.

In the meantime, I have suggested a stop-gap quick fix: deal with the human-traffickers.   Which part of that do you find problematic?   What better solution do you have---other than some imaginary "genuine Chinese help"---that will stem the flow?

Of course, the people should be rescued and good care taken of them.  But that will not stem the flow.

The immediate concern is why are people being let to drown month in month out....by a civilized nation called Italy.

Not so.   The immediate concern is that people are drowning.   We can certainly go on and on about why a "civilized nation called Italy" is allowing it to happen;  but rather than wait for Italy to do whatever, other approaches, especially on the continent must be quickly considered.   

[RV Pundit]

We can go on and on. But you know what I think with regard to China and West Europe. I think China engagment with Africa has been very good. Europe have not only enslaved Africans, they have colonized them and continue to NeoColonize them.

At the very least they owe it to Africans to keep them alive...

Nobody has sent them the colonial rule bill....so they can use some of the dividends from 100yrs or about colonizing the world to feed refugees.

It simple. Those who have more...more will be expected. You cannot expect poor africans and their countries to do much...

"The developed world has to do MORE in Africa...to stem the invetiable immigration. They can begin by genuinely helping Africans like Chinese are doing."

How long will your "genuine Chinese help" take?   Will it be quicker than African countries dealing with their human-traffickers?

[MOON Ki]

It simple. Those who have more...more will be expected.

The problem is that people and countries don't always do what is "expected" of them.    So while we are free expect those who have more to do more, to rely on their doing so is foolhardy: the results are evident all over the place.

[RV Pundit]

Bogeyman..human traffickers..any names of some notorious ones? Who is trafficking somalis across our borders. The so called human traffickers are just fixers along the way. The problem will remain.."many" Africans will continue fleeing..you're one of them...legally or illegally..until maybe in 2050 when economic conditions will be near equal.

Nowhere have I stated or implied that they deserve no mercy or generosity; such is what I call emotional claptrap.

Nor have I stated that African leaders must first fix their countries; what I have stated is that in the long term that will be the real solution.

In the meantime, I have suggested a stop-gap quick fix: deal with the human-traffickers.   Which part of that do you find problematic?   What better solution do you have---other than some imaginary "genuine Chinese help"---that will stem the flow?

Of course, the people should be rescued and good care taken of them.  But that will not stem the flow.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Hehehe...show me one example of a European country that has lost out because of migrants and I will show you a flying pig.  If a muzungu can go to Nairobi seeking opportunities(legal or otherwise) then  he has no moral authority to stop the Negro from doing the same in his country.

Absolutely.    Moreover, the economic benefits to the host country of migration are by now generally established, although xenophobia inevitably leads to denial of the same.

I think the issue here is not that of people trying to migrate for better economic opportunities; many people do that, including quite a few of us posting here.    The real issues are: (a) the conditions that have forced them to take such a desperate path, (b) the human traffickers who have taken advantage of such desperation, and (c) what happens to them once they are in the water.

(a) and (b) should be handled mostly on the continent.   (c) to be handled mostly on the EU side, but much can also be done on the other side, at the water's edge. 

The real problem right now is that nobody is doing all that is necessary.   Given that, my view is that first step is for Africans to look out for fellow Africans and not expect a lot from Europeans.

Yep.  The African has to love himself.  By himself I don't mean his individual selfish self, but rather the humanity and worth of the fellow African.  It always brings me back to Equatorial Guinea.  A far from poor country on paper, I would not be surprised to find that some of these migrants are from there.

[MOON Ki]

Bogeyman..human traffickers..any names of some notorious ones?

I don't have any names.   Who did you have in mind for Interpol to arrest?

The problem will remain.."many" Africans will continue fleeing..you're one of them...legally or illegally..until maybe in 2050 when economic conditions will be near equal.

Absolutely.

[RV Pundit]

So you rather hopelessly or cynically call for action from African leaders...aware they are unable or unwilling..rather than call out the right wing nonsense [inhumane] taking root in Europe like Omollo has done.

The problem here is ITALY. And EU. Immigration has become a political hot potato and their leaders have chosen to become like Zuma of South Africa...

EU and Italy should be called out for policies that seem designed to drown economic refugees from Africa in Mediterranean sea.

It seem if you were alive and Europe were busy enslaving Africans and colonizing them..you would still find time to blame Africans

The problem is that people and countries don't always do what is "expected" of them.    So while we are free expect those who have more to do more, to rely on their doing so is foolhardy: the results are evident all over the place.

[MOON Ki]

So you rather hopeless or cynically call for action from African leaders...aware they are unable or unwilling.

There is nothing hopeless or cynical about it.    In the long run that is what will have to happen for real and long-lasting change to occur.    To the extent that African "leaders" are "unable or unwilling", the problem is not one that will be solved by outsiders.   

The problem here is ITALY. And EU.

That may be so.  But people are dying, and it would be unwise to wait for that "problem" to solve itself.

It seem if you were alive and Europe were busy enslaving Africans and colonizing them..you would still find time to blame Africans

More excessive and unhelpful emotion.   

[RV Pundit]

In the meantime Italy and Eu should pursue progressive immigration and refugee policies and not cow to right wing political wave. These people have long given up on Africa leaders and literally taken their flight to Europe. Why drown them.

Europe can do better. They are already better. Mwafrika has enough trouble already to worry about someone fleeing the country.

There is nothing hopeless or cynical about it.    In the long run that is what will have to happen for real and long-lasting change to occur.    To the extent that African "leaders" are "unable or unwilling", the problem is not one that will be solved by outsiders.   

[RV Pundit]

We are talking 900 dead people. Donge? You must be long dead if that isn't emotional. These deaths are happening more and more as Italy enact policies that in plain english demand they do not assist anybody from Africa drowing. How inhumane.

More excessive and unhelpful emotion.   

[RV Pundit]

Infact reading the news..the crisis is more on Europe than Africa.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/21/world/europe/european-union-immigration-migrant-ship-capsizes.html?_r=0

[MOON Ki]

We are talking 900 dead people. Donge? You must be long dead if that isn't emotional. These deaths are happening more and more as Italy enact policies that in plain english demand they do not assist anybody from Africa drowing. How inhumane.

More excessive and unhelpful emotion.   

This is what I was referring to:

"It seem if you were alive and Europe were busy enslaving Africans and colonizing them..you would still find time to blame Africans"

By the way, if I did not feel anything about the tragedy, I would not have started this thread.     If the point you wish to make is that you are more emotional about it, then by all means go ahead; I am not in a position to know who feels what, so I won't argue the point.