Africa still largely the dark continent when it come to power

[MOON Ki]

can we really compare Kenya to South Korea?
they had first university in 1885; second in 1905 .....

The notion that great economic, industrial, etc. development is somehow directly connected to the establishment of universities is an interesting one.    I just started on a little "investigation" into this theory, looking at both where various countries are today and also those that have made the most rapid progress in the last 50 years.   So far, the incomplete results are interesting: on the first, North Africa is especially interesting; on the second, places like Singapore are worth another look.

But the basic argument from people like me is about leadership:

* If one looks at recent "rises", one can immediately connect it to certain leaders and what they established: Deng in China, Park in Korea, Lee in Singapore, Mahatir (to a lesser extent) in Malaysia, etc.

What about places like Kenya?   Jomo's first priority was that he and "his people" grab as much as possible.    That was the first 15 years of Independent Kenya.     In the next 24, Moi outdid Jomo.   The latter at least tried to ensure that those of "his people" who were at the top were sufficiently educated and somewhat competent.   Nyayo didn't even bother with that?

* Is the problem with Kenya really that it doesn't have enough people who are sufficiently and properly educated?   I'm not so sure.   

A personal story: Growing up, I watched my father and many of his equally well-educated peers get really shafted solely because they were of a "wrong" tribe.  I learned from that.  In Moi's time, after an education in the West, I tried to return to Kenya, as had always been my intention.   I had no luck, and, for the type of jobs I was looking for, it was made clear to me that my tribe was "wrong".   At the same time that  I was struggling to return to Moi's Kenya, I had good offers in the West and even better ones in Lee's Singapore?  One does not need to have gone to school to figure out where I ended up.   And  doubt that I was the only one in such a situation.

* Technological and economic development is very different from, and much more rapid that, what it was more that, say, 50 years ago.   In particular one needs to rethink the notion that scientific and industrial development follows the  long establishment of universities.   A much better view, to my mind, is that in these times they go together.  For two examples, take a close look at (and consider how old they are)

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pohang_University_of_Science_and_Technology

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanyang_Technological_University

* Forget universities, of which in Kenya these days it seems like there one on top of every multi-storey shopping building.  Kenya could really fly if focused on eliminating (or at least greatly reducing) tribalism and corruption, taking care of people's basic needs (food, health, housing, etc.), making the best use of  the people it has, and so forth.

Just reflecting on the first, one of the things I especially liked about Singapore is the dim view towards "ethnic differences".    Nowhere else in the world have I felt more comfortable as a black person.  (In Kenya, my tribe has never been "right").    All that was expected of me, as everyone else, was plenty of hard work.

As I have stated before, on Africa as a whole: there is plenty of "riches" in the ground; there is no shortage of intelligent, educated people; the "youth bulge" should mean plenty of cheap labour for "nation building"; etc.   So, the problem is where?   

Take a look at the newest African country, S. Sudan.  Kiir firing Machar was bound to lead to disaster; Kiir insisting that Machar could, at best, only be No.3 means that "peace negotiations" are just an exercise in pissing against the wind.  But that's how it always seems to go on The Beloved Continent: it's either grabbing for "our people"---and bugger the other people---or it's Government vs. Rebels, in order to have one dominant group that can grab for "our people".

[MOON Ki]

can we really compare Kenya to South Korea?
they had first university in 1885; second in 1905 .....

The notion that great economic, industrial, etc. development is somehow directly connected to the establishment of universities is an interesting one.    I just started on a little "investigation" into this theory, looking at both where various countries are today and also those that have made the most rapid progress in the last 50 years.   So far, the incomplete results are interesting: on the first (i.e. oldest universities), North Africa is especially interesting; on the second, places like Singapore are worth another look.

But the basic argument from people like me is about leadership:

* If one looks at recent "rises", one can immediately connect them to certain leaders and what they established: Deng in China, Park in Korea, Lee in Singapore, Mahatir (to a lesser extent) in Malaysia, etc.

What about places like Kenya?   Jomo's first priority was that he and "his people" grab as much as possible.    That was the first 15 years of Independent Kenya.     In the next 24, Moi outdid Jomo.   The former at least tried to ensure that those of "his people" who were at the top were sufficiently educated and somewhat competent.   Nyayo didn't even bother with that?

* Is the problem with Kenya really that it doesn't have enough people who are sufficiently and properly educated?   I'm not so sure.   

A personal story: Growing up, I watched my father and many of his equally well-educated peers get really shafted solely because they were of a "wrong" tribe.  I learned from that.  In Moi's time, after an education in the West, I tried to return to Kenya, as had always been my intention.   I had no luck, and, for the type of jobs I was looking for, it was made clear to me that my tribe was "wrong".   At the same time that  I was struggling to return to Moi's Kenya, I had good offers in the West and even better ones in Lee's Singapore?  One does not need to have gone to school to figure out where I ended up.   And  doubt that I was the only one in such a situation.   

* Technological and economic development is very different from, and much more rapid that, what it was more that, say, over 50 years ago.   In particular one needs to rethink the notion that scientific and industrial development follows the  long establishment of universities.   A much better view, to my mind, is that in these times they go together.  For two examples, take a close look at (and consider how old they are)

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pohang_University_of_Science_and_Technology

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanyang_Technological_University

(You may also take a look at the oldest university in Singapore---the National University of Singapore, which started out as a small outpost of the University of Malay---and compare both the countries and the former with its parent university.)

* Forget universities, of which in Kenya these days it seems like there one on top of every multi-storey shopping building.  Kenya could really fly if focused on eliminating (or at least greatly reducing) tribalism and corruption, taking care of people's basic needs (food, health, housing, etc.), making the best use of  the people it has, reducing the poor-rich gap, and so forth.

Just reflecting on the first of these, I recall that one of the things I especially liked about Singapore is the dim view towards "ethnic differences".    Nowhere else in the world have I felt more comfortable as a black person.  (In Kenya, my tribe has never been "right").    All that was expected of me, as of everyone else, was plenty of hard work.

As I have stated before, on Africa as a whole: there is plenty of "riches" in the ground; there is no shortage of intelligent, educated people; the "youth bulge" should mean plenty of cheap labour for "nation building"; etc.   So, the problem is where?   

Take a look at the newest African country, S. Sudan.  Kiir firing Machar was bound to lead to disaster; Kiir insisting that Machar could, at best, only be No.3 means that "peace negotiations" are just an exercise in pissing against the wind.  But that's how it always seems to go on The Beloved Continent: it's either grabbing for "our people"---and bugger the other people---or it's Government vs. Rebels, in order to have one dominant group that can grab for "our people".   

[Omollo]

(1) Your basic claim was that the USA had built power plants (secret!), roads, and other infrastructure that had somehow helped propel the Korean economy.    I asked "which ones and where".   I have yet to get a good answer.

I am still trying to get the exact figures and details of US aid between 1945 - 53 and crucially between 1953 - 72.

About the secret power plants for the US military, I wish to withdraw because I could never possibly provide proof of it without appearing to be a conspiracy theorist.

[RV Pundit]

That is simplistic theory. That a country fortune can be linked to one or two political leaders. I believe a country is more like a person or a company or anything normal.....initially growth is constrained by many things..illiteracy for once at independence in kenya meant kenyatta even if he tried (and he did try) to grow the economy...we were not not going anywhere far....then after a period of slow growth..during which conditions for take off are painfully and slowly set... a country then goes into a period of high growth...leapfrogs...and then plateaus..and then even regress.

The exception are countries that hit a jackpot..like those who discovered massive amount of oils...or won some lottery or discovered some new tech...then you have "hockey stick" growth like those silicon valley firms.


You cannot talk about China,Singapore, Malaysia and Korea leap frog phase....without looking at the many years when the country toiled to get right the conditions.....and when voila the last piece of puzzle was put in place...it flew.

The pilot who lift the plane off ground...by touching the right terminals..is not more important than guys who have done lot of background work.

Development is incremental. Kenyatta won't have done nothing if he had not inherited a decent economy from the British. The same with Moi. The same with Kibaki.

You cannot possibly say China was doing ZERO when it's was under Mao' communism and all over sudden when capitalism was introduced...everything flew. Mao set the foundation for China growth...all Ping needed to do was change the policy..and voila!


Perhaps you need to look at TZ... a country that has been well managed based on your criteria (less tribalism, less corruption,less insecurity) with great leader like Nyerere..but the country remain a BACKWATER.

Bottomline: People like you have unrealistic expectation of what a leader can do. We want them to solve all problems in a generation. And we want them to take all the flak.

If one looks at recent "rises", one can immediately connect them to certain leaders and what they established: Deng in China, Park in Korea, Lee in Singapore, Mahatir (to a lesser extent) in Malaysia, etc.   

[gout]

africa as the title of the post is still a dark continent in nearly all sectors and education darkness is fundamental to other darknesses ...the number of (diploma & degrees) graduates is a negligible fraction- Kenya has only about 500k degree graduates out of adult population of 20 million, the 2009 census as image shows doesn't paint a better picture at present and into future - reason why we have illiterate MPs, kanjoras, cabinet sec, IG, and even president with shady academic qualifications who can rarely articulate current world issues coherently  ... that Kenya is adopting the India's model in education .... access ...access ... and even more access is a thing whose time came in the 60s... I remember when in 90s we were laughing at India's education system... now we are running to their health facilities over all sort over silly illnesses ... throwing away billions just because we don't have medical practitioners who can competently handle diagnostic machines even in Karen, Agha Khan, Nairobi hospitals ... if we can be able to train world class nurses why not train millions of them and export them across the world instead of exporting housemaids to arab world...

education is still the key hope for poor, ethnically divided african countries... omollo had made an interesting observation in in another post here that we keep lamenting about matatu sector yet no course is offered on makanga etiquette despite it being a thriving industry... even NYS is concentrating on bullshit military drills to 'instil discipline'.... am sure if we had diploma graduates as makangas, boda bodas, drivers things will improve for better in transport industry just like in all other areas including leadership... we may have guys appreciating miniskirts as they saw them in colleges instead of mungikism

I commend all colleges from aviation to all those on top of bars in river road .... kids need to get a 'higher education experience'... any education is greatest transformative force we have .... once we fix access quality will sort itself...cream always rises to the top

* Forget universities, of which in Kenya these days it seems like there one on top of every multi-storey shopping building.  Kenya could really fly if focused on eliminating (or at least greatly reducing) tribalism and corruption, taking care of people's basic needs (food, health, housing, etc.), making the best use of  the people it has, reducing the poor-rich gap, and so forth.

[RV Pundit]

Right. There is NO single most important variable than LEVELS/YEARS of education when it come to development. Education is great predictor of success both at micro(Household)- and macro-level(National). Of course the benefits takes years...a kid has to spent anything 15-20 yrs...and so if we were to improve the quality of education now..the result will be felt in 20yrs..when Moonki will be PORK and he will ran away with sucess

Africa countries must priorities in complusory basic education....and ensure at least every kid get 12yrs of education. This is costly but in the long run..this will be setting the stage for great success..20yrs from now.

Kenya is an outlier in development in sub-sahara because it has invested in Education very seriously except in 90s when it fell to IMF/WB  misguided SAP programme.

For all our woes..our quality of education..is ranked very highly...at near developed world standards...top 40 in the world. Whether someone find employment or not...level of education...will generally determine how they end up in life.

africa as the title of the post is still a dark continent in nearly all sectors and education darkness is fundamental to other darknesses ...the number of (diploma & degrees) graduates is a negligible fraction- Kenya has only about 500k degree graduates out of adult population of 20 million, the 2009 census as image shows doesn't paint a better picture at present and into future - reason why we have illiterate MPs, kanjoras, cabinet sec, IG, and even president with shady academic qualifications who can rarely articulate current world issues coherently  ... that Kenya is adopting the India's model in education .... access ...access ... and even more access is a thing whose time came in the 60s... I remember when in 90s we were laughing at India's education system... now we are running to their health facilities over all sort over silly illnesses ... throwing away billions just because we don't have medical practitioners who can competently handle diagnostic machines even in Karen, Agha Khan, Nairobi hospitals ... if we can be able to train world class nurses why not train millions of them and export them across the world instead of exporting housemaids to arab world...

education is still the key hope for poor, ethnically divided african countries... omollo had made an interesting observation in in another post here that we keep lamenting about matatu sector yet no course is offered on makanga etiquette despite it being a thriving industry... even NYS is concentrating on bullshit military drills to 'instil discipline'.... am sure if we had diploma graduates as makangas, boda bodas, drivers things will improve for better in transport industry just like in all other areas including leadership... we may have guys appreciating miniskirts as they saw them in colleges instead of mungikism

I commend all colleges from aviation to all those on top of bars in river road .... kids need to get a 'higher education experience'... any education is greatest transformative force we have .... once we fix access quality will sort itself...cream always rises to the top

* Forget universities, of which in Kenya these days it seems like there one on top of every multi-storey shopping building.  Kenya could really fly if focused on eliminating (or at least greatly reducing) tribalism and corruption, taking care of people's basic needs (food, health, housing, etc.), making the best use of  the people it has, reducing the poor-rich gap, and so forth.

[RV Pundit]

And talking of South Korea...if you research more..you will find out they set the stage for take off very early...starting with complusory education in 1950s.
http://www.ncee.org/programs-affiliates/center-on-international-education-benchmarking/top-performing-countries/south-korea-overview/

And they went through the familiar problems

This was not easy to do.  Before the economy started generating enough money to train and hire lots of teachers, South Korean class size often topped 100, facilities were primitive and schools often ran two or three shifts.

[Omollo]

I am missing this debate. I am wring on my feet or should I say butt. Deadlines are on me and I am paying for recent over/indulgence in Nipate. Ill be back, said Arnold of Austria

[MOON Ki]

That is simplistic theory. That a country fortune can be linked to one or two political leaders.

You must have cut your history classes.     History tells us that individuals can have a huge effect (negative or positive) on the fortunes (social, economic, etc.) of a nation.   That is how such individuals end up in the history books.  More significantly, it is leadership that makes the differences among countries that otherwise start as equal.   


In the case of people like Deng, Park, Lee, etc.  there is a clear and direct link between the policies that they put into effect and the subsequent transformation of the countries.  If you have an argument to the contrary, let's have it.     

You cannot talk about China, Singapore, Malaysia and Korea leap frog phase....without looking at the many years when the country toiled to get right the conditions.....and when voila the last piece of puzzle was put in place...it flew.

Again, you miss the point on leadership.    If it will help you get, it consider countries that at the same time (before the transformation) had roughly similar conditions.   The difference is leadership.   You need to give up this notion that the way major transformations happen is that people toil and toil and toil, and then one day---as if by magic---"voila the last piece of puzzle ... in place".  Nevertheless, it is not just you: Kenyans and many other Africans need to stop believing that it is just a matter of toiling---especially when much of the toil is unproductive---and pay more serious attention to the bases on which they elect their leaders.   

Development is incremental. Kenyatta won't have done nothing if he had not inherited a decent economy from the British. The same with Moi. The same with Kibaki.
...
Bottomline: People like you have unrealistic expectation of what a leader can do. We want them to solve all problems in a generation. And we want them to take all the flak.

What did Kenyatta do other than grab and institute corruption?   Today Kenya is bedeviled by corruption, which everyone agrees has been and is hurting the country.   On the other hand,  that is hardly existent in Singapore, because Lee decided from the beginning that he would have none of it.   That is an example of the difference in leadership.   That is why today, all over the world Lee is regarded as a great leader, and Johnstone Kamau, Moi, and Kibaki are noted---if anyone notes anything at all---as just standard-issue African jokers but without "rebels" to fight.   Kibaki is of course also remembered for another thing: the PEV.

Moi was a total disaster.   The idea that he did anything positive is absurd.  (I am here excluding the grabbing he did for himself and "his people", the pushing of absolute incompetents into high positions, etc.).    Kibaki had a chance to set the country of a new course, but he blew it.   

In considering where Kenya is, one should think of where it would be if that lot had gone a different way.   To my mind, it is not unrealistic to expect that "leaders" should not lead in theft, corruption, the promotion of ethnic divisions, etc.    Until Kenya really tackles these things, it is going nowhere.

[RV Pundit]

Before i respond to you...please respond to my Tazania analogy. I know you're too prejudiced against our kenyan political leaders to be objective but maybe you need to tell us what went wrong in TZ..who had a great leader in Nyerere..and subsequent leaders...haven't be plagued by as much corruption and primitive wealth accumulation like ours.

Based on your theory..TZ would be miles ahead..but we know it's a cesspool compared to kenya.

And i did not say leadership doesn't matter. I said it is ONE OF THE MANY FACTORS. You theory i repeat is simplistic.  Political leadership/Governance is just one of the many variables need to turn around the fortunes of a country.

And when you say two countries are EQUAL...you mean what? South Korea GDP might have been equal to Kenya in mid 60s..but there were many difference....one...by that time..South Korea first generation of compulsory educated kids were graduating.....meanwhile illiteracy in kenya was 90% (and still is in places like turkana, mandera, etc).

Another variable you have to look at is demographics..the structure and the growth rate. We we breeding like rats with so many kids being supported by two illeterate parents..while south koreans were already siring less kids.

There are many other variables...of course including economic systems (capitalism versus communism then), rule of law, fiscal policies, industrial policies, health systems, etc

That is simplistic theory. That a country fortune can be linked to one or two political leaders.

You must have cut your history classes.     History tells us that individuals can have a huge effect (negative or positive) on the fortunes (social, economic, etc.) of a nation.   That is how such individuals end up in the history books.  More significantly, it is leadership that makes the differences among countries that otherwise start as equal.   


In the case of people like Deng, Park, Lee, etc.  there is a clear and direct link between the policies that they put into effect and the subsequent transformation of the countries.  If you have an argument to the contrary, let's have it.     

You cannot talk about China, Singapore, Malaysia and Korea leap frog phase....without looking at the many years when the country toiled to get right the conditions.....and when voila the last piece of puzzle was put in place...it flew.

Again, you miss the point on leadership.    If it will help you get, it consider countries that at the same time (before the transformation) had roughly similar conditions.   The difference is leadership.   You need to give up this notion that the way major transformations happen is that people toil and toil and toil, and then one day---as if by magic---"voila the last piece of puzzle ... in place".  Nevertheless, it is not just you: Kenyans and many other Africans need to stop believing that it is just a matter of toiling---especially when much of the toil is unproductive---and pay more serious attention to the bases on which they elect their leaders.   

Development is incremental. Kenyatta won't have done nothing if he had not inherited a decent economy from the British. The same with Moi. The same with Kibaki.
...
Bottomline: People like you have unrealistic expectation of what a leader can do. We want them to solve all problems in a generation. And we want them to take all the flak.

What did Kenyatta do other than grab and institute corruption?   Today Kenya is bedeviled by corruption, which everyone agrees has been and is hurting the country.   On the other hand,  that is hardly existent in Singapore, because Lee decided from the beginning that he would have none of it.   That is an example of the difference in leadership.   That is why today, all over the world Lee is regarded as a great leader, and Johnstone Kamau, Moi, and Kibaki are noted---if anyone notes anything at all---as just standard-issue African jokers but without "rebels" to fight.   Kibaki is of course also remembered for another thing: the PEV.

Moi was a total disaster.   The idea that he did anything positive is absurd.  (I am here excluding the grabbing he did for himself and "his people", the pushing of absolute incompetents into high positions, etc.).    Kibaki had a chance to set the country of a new course, but he blew it.   

In considering where Kenya is, one should think of where it would be if that lot had gone a different way.   To my mind, it is not unrealistic to expect that "leaders" should not lead in theft, corruption, the promotion of ethnic divisions, etc.    Until Kenya really tackles these things, it is going nowhere.

[MOON Ki]

Before i respond to you...please respond to my Tazania analogy. I know you're too prejudiced against our kenyan political leaders to be objective but maybe you need to tell us what went wrong in TZ..who had a great leader in Nyerere..and subsequent leaders...haven't be plagued by as much corruption and primitive wealth accumulation like ours.

I think you have a problem with basic logic, and we need to address that before we can make progress.  Consider the following sentences.

(a) Without corruption and primitive wealth accumulation a country will do much better than it would otherwise have done.

(b) Without corruption and primitive wealth accumulation will develop extremely rapidly economically.

Can you tell the differences between the two?   Perhaps I should give you a simpler one: 

(c) Tallness is favourable to success in a basket player.

(d) Tallness guarantees success in a basketball player.

Once you are able to tell the differences between the statements in each pair, revisit this one:

"In considering where Kenya is, one should think of where it would be if that lot had gone a different way."

By the way, what  is it that supposedly "went wrong" in Tanzania?

Based on your theory..TZ would be miles ahead..but we know it's a cesspool compared to kenya.

You ought to pay more attention to what you write.   See red above.     

[MOON Ki]

education is still the key hope for poor, ethnically divided african countries...

I absolutely agree with the statements on the importance of education.    My main point was that the educated will do themselves and their nation good only to the extent that they have the opportunities to do so.    It does not help to have a  situation in which the best that educated youth, many with high expectations, can look forward to is years and years of the tarmac.   It does not help when well-educated people find themselves unemployed, in favour of barely-educated bums from the "right" tribe.   And so on.     

[RV Pundit]

I see you've resorted to usual sillness and pettiness when cornered. I don't need lectures on causality and causation...or logic.

Let me repeat myself. A country is a like big ship with so many variables and the captain is just one of many variables. Of course there is no stopping a really stupid captain from sinking the ship if he so determined...but the captain cannot also make the ship suddenly fly off ground...like it was jet.

A country can grow with or without democracy, with or without corruption, with or without ABC..because they are so MANY variables that determine the destiny of a country. Malindi wouldn't have risen without drug dealing. Macau is sin city full of casinos..and so is Las Vegas. There are countries who have thrived with corruptions and all sort of crimes. China rose without any democracy. There are military dictatorships that have done well.

Case in point Tazania. It doesn't have kenya tribalism, hasn't been affected by graft till recently and is fairly secure and cohesive..but she has been beaten by kenya 10-nil for all those years...coz she on the other hand made idiotic choices as country...such as uchamaa policy, the refusal to allow private ownership of land till today, refusal to allow foreigners to own land, idiotic fiscal and monetary policies including foreign currency restrictions to date, swahili based education systems that is totally useless.. Kenya has it's well known problems (corruption, tribalism,insecurity) but it also made very many smart choices..that has made her the top 5 sub-saharan economy and the best sub-saharan economy without any resources like mines or oils.

You either want to engage in a serious debate..or you want to continue heaping all blame or praise on the usual suspects (politicians).

Before i respond to you...please respond to my Tazania analogy. I know you're too prejudiced against our kenyan political leaders to be objective but maybe you need to tell us what went wrong in TZ..who had a great leader in Nyerere..and subsequent leaders...haven't be plagued by as much corruption and primitive wealth accumulation like ours.

I think you have a problem with basic logic, and we need to address that before we can make progress.  Consider the following sentences.

(a) Without corruption and primitive wealth accumulation a country will do much better than it would otherwise have done.

(b) Without corruption and primitive wealth accumulation will develop extremely rapidly economically.

Can you tell the differences between the two?   Perhaps I should give you a simpler one: 

(c) Tallness is favourable to success in a basket player.

(d) Tallness guarantees success in a basketball player.

One you are able to tell the differences between the statements in each pair, let me know.

By the way, what "went wrong" in Tanzania"

Based on your theory..TZ would be miles ahead..but we know it's a cesspool compared to kenya.

You ought to pay more attention to what you write.   See red above.     

[RV Pundit]

Another very narrow view of education. Education apart from impacting one with life skills impart people with ability to make smart choices...how many children to have, when to have them, how to save money, how to start business, how to farm better, how to realize this is a disease not a witchraft...bla de bla..emigrate for work. Employment in gov even if it went to one tribe..is mere 700,000 jobs..and you have more than 14M eligible (16-65) kenyans who need jobs. There are lots of jobs in private sector and even more in informal sector.In kenya you'll be suprised to realize people in informal sector earn more than formal sector of the same level of education. Matatu touts who is std 8 drop out makes more than gov office cleaner.

Quantity and quality of education is too important a variable to be looked at the prism of finding a job in formal economy.

I absolutely agree with the statements on the importance of education.    My main point was that the educated will do themselves and their nation good only to the extent that they have the opportunities to do so.    It does not help to have a  situation in which the best that educated youth, many with high expectations, can look forward to is years and years of the tarmac.   It does not help when well-educated people find themselves unemployed, in favour of barely-educated bums from the "right" tribe.   And so on.     

[Mr Mansfield.]

There are lots of jobs in private sector and even more in informal sector.

Give us the number of those jobs Vs. Job seekers,

Without Prejudice.

[MOON Ki]

I see you've resorted to usual sillness and pettiness when cornered. I don't need lectures on causality and causation...or logic.

No, no, no.   Calling it silliness and pettiness won't do.  What will do is a better display of elementary logic.

Case in point Tazania. It doesn't have kenya tribalism, hasn't been affected by graft till recently and is fairly secure and cohesive..but she has been beaten by kenya 10-nil for all those years...coz she on the other hand made idiotic choice as country...such uchamaa policy

See, this is exactly where basic logic would help you.   The fact that Tanzania has not done better economically than Kenya even though it does not have the same levels of tribalism and corruption is totally irrelevant to the question of whether Kenya would have done better than it has if it had less of those.

that has made it's the top 5 sub-saharan economy and the best sub-saharan economy without any resources like mines or oils.

And let me too repeat myself: economic growth that does not translate into human development is hardly the thing to brag about.     Kenya might be "top 5", but if you look at say, the UNDP's human development index, you will find Kenya in the lowest category of "Low Human Development".   On the other hand, you will find several other countries in the higher category of "Medium Human Development".   

[RV Pundit]

There are enough jobs for everyone...and in this global economy...as many jobs as you want. Last i checked Formal sector (Private Sector) had 2.5M jobs. Informal sectors was 12M jobs. The jobs that are really paying in informal sector..are those outside agricultural activities...which are plagued by low pay.

Give us the number of those jobs Vs. Job seekers,

Without Prejudice.

[RV Pundit]

This is just classic pettiness. The point is simple. Kenya and South Korea were as equal as Kenya and TZ were equal. That kenya could have done better...of course...but would it have replicated South Korea or Singapore or Malaysia..hell NO. Kenya 60s economy was white economy while majority blacks were crippled by poverty, illiteracy and disease to quote Jomo. South Korea were 15-20yrs more prepared than us.

HDI..they are as many indices out there as you want...National Happinness..?? name them. Knock yourself off....but you'll find Kenya beat TZ....just like South Korea beat kenya.

I notice you're now once again going into bla de bla territory having ran out of points.

I see you've resorted to usual sillness and pettiness when cornered. I don't need lectures on causality and causation...or logic.

No, no, no.   Calling it silliness and pettiness won't do.  What will do is a better display of elementary logic.

Case in point Tazania. It doesn't have kenya tribalism, hasn't been affected by graft till recently and is fairly secure and cohesive..but she has been beaten by kenya 10-nil for all those years...coz she on the other hand made idiotic choice as country...such uchamaa policy

See, this is exactly where basic logic would help you.   The fact that Tanzania has not done better economically than Kenya even though it does not have the same levels of tribalism and corruption is totally irrelevant to the question of whether Kenya would have done better than it has if it had less of those.

that has made it's the top 5 sub-saharan economy and the best sub-saharan economy without any resources like mines or oils.

And let me too repeat myself: economic growth that does not translate into human development is hardly the thing to brag about.     Kenya might be "top 5", but if you look at say, the UNDP's human development index, you will find Kenya in the lowest category of "Low Human Development".   On the other hand, you will find several other countries in the higher category of "Medium Human Development".   

[MOON Ki]

Another very narrow view of education. Education apart from impacting one with life skills impart people with ability to make smart choices...how many children to have, when to have them, how to save money, how to start business, how to farm better,

Really?  Is that what all those uneducated but unemployed youth in Kenya are doing?   Making smart choices?    Saving money they don't have?    Farming land they don't have?   Starting business with money they don't have?   It sure doesn't look that way.

There are lots of jobs in private sector and even more in informal sector. 

Really?   And what is the unemployment rate in Kenya?

In kenya you'll be suprised to realize people in informal sector earn more than formal sector of the same level of education. Matatu touts who is std 8 drop out makes more than gov office cleaner.

And exactly how is that relevant to the unemployment rate?

[MOON Ki]

There are enough jobs for everyone...and in this global economy...as many jobs as you want.

This one is definitely very funny!