Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: Arcadian_Dreamer on April 18, 2021, 10:37:11 PM
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This is a piece on Climate Change in today's Nation Newspaper, read and learn.
In Cherangany, Trans Nzoia County, the country’s food basket is not giving as generously as before. Here, seasons are unpredictable, rains erratic and farmers on the edge. Whenever it rains, the rains usually are not as intense as what pounded the area two decades ago, says Joseph Kariuki, who grew up in the famous hills.
“April rains were always assured. The disappearance of the rains has a lot to do with deforestation. During the late President Moi’s era, the government allocated a lot of land under forests to people for farming activities,” he says.
Today, large swathes of Cherangany Hills are bare. The quest to expand agricultural land to boost food production three decades ago has turned out to be the biggest threat to farming here, with rains now scanty, sometimes even absent.
https://nation.africa/kenya/news/how-kenya-plunged-into-the-grip-of-climate-change-3367000
Stories like these are so common in our media they are barely news, the country is desiccating before our eyes thanks to deforestation, fires, poor grazing management, tillage and inappropriate use of irrigation, and exposed soils.
Can you develop if you can't feed yourself?...Doubtful. Can you eat if you continually consume your seedbank?...impossible.
The future's bleak. Development and environmental protection are not mutually exclusive, you can have both. Stop parroting this wrong headed fallacy.
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Millions of landless now tilling land there will strongly disagree.
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Pundit, you just do not get it. Of course those tilling the land will not agree, but the facts point agianst them. They will be eventually the loosers.
Millions of landless now tilling land there will strongly disagree.
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We need to find solutions both for the humans and the conservation/restoration priorities. We have so much land we don't use. If we could just reclaim it, we would solve both.
All that land around the Mara, if you go there now, is becoming farmland. The better ones are private conservations. Fences all over. It has restricted wildlife to a very tiny portion. The Mara now feels like a district rather than a province if you go there. After two days, you've seen it all. Why? Maasais are becoming farmers and/or selling their land to others, coz the govt gave them title deeds some time ago. We can't solve that fencing issue if we are NOT giving them solutions/alternatives. I've seen some conservations who've managed to convince some pastoralists not to turn their land into farms or even fence them off. But they get the tourism revenue, in turn. These people must be part of the solution if you hope for it to last. We need the government to take over these efforts and spear-head these solutions for it to be widespread.
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No, it's you who don't get it.
Yes eventually the climate will change due to deforestation; but WE HAVE immediate needs; These families have needs NOW; eventually their kids will not till land; because our economy will have transitioned into industrial jobs. Eventually we will replant the forest; Just like Germany did - and are now correcting it.
You worry about future when people are worried about putting food on the table NOW.
Study your beloved Germany - they destroyed their forests to create farm lands - killed all the animals - came to Africa and other continents and did the same - and are now replanting them.
Pundit, you just do not get it. Of course those tilling the land will not agree, but the facts point agianst them. They will be eventually the loosers.
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Absolutely - we have to find a balance - but generally Sustainable Development is a mirage in poor countries.
Yes we can reclaim the barren land; give it to the poor; that would save the forest; But gov is not willing to invest in such? . It was therefore easy to let the peasant into the forests.
Are rich nations willing to help Africa save their forest - by financing such irrigation schemes?
Of course NOT. And trust me Kadudu and the Nyar here talking about trees have never planted them in their Nyanzabwe! Trees are not just for forest - it should be planted everywhere.
We need to find solutions both for the humans and the conservation/restoration priorities. We have so much land we don't use. If we could just reclaim it, we would solve both.
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We need to find solutions both for the humans and the conservation/restoration priorities. We have so much land we don't use. If we could just reclaim it, we would solve both.
There is a reason why for millions of years populatiins in africa stayed low. We have seen the effects of trying to "tame" nature in asia and the west. Africa is fine. We need less "development" more natural. Actually modern medicine is harmful as it prolongs life than it is necessary. Rift valley is on steep decljne. Places like marakwet are unhabitable. Your own county kisii is over populated with kisiis suffering from landlessness, poverty and displacement in large numbers.
Pundit has no understanding of ecology and how interconnected the earth systems are.
His is what English call less knowledge is dangerous. Global warming will accellerate in this centrury in a way that africa will suffer greatly.
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You're funny. I have planted now 25 acres of trees. And yet you claim I have no understanding of ecology. My mavoko land is full of trees.
But I understand the dillema we face here. Trees versus Human. Humans win ALWAYS.
You Githunguri people still depend on the forest for firewood, shamba system and name it. Remember 90% of Kenya COOK USING FIREWOOD.
Let us not romantize nature. It should be USED - sustainably if possible.
For example ecological speaking - would planting tea over natural forests really damage the ecology of that area - apart from the little mices and such animals in there?
There is a reason why for millions of years populatiins in africa stayed low. We have seen the effects of trying to "tame" nature in asia and the west. Africa is fine. We need less "development" more natural. Actually modern medicine is harmful as it prolongs life than it is necessary. Rift valley is on steep decljne. Places like marakwet are inhabitable. Your own county kisii is over populated with kisii suffering from landlessness, poverty and displacement in large numbers.
Pundit has no understanding of ecology and how interconnected the earth systems are.
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You're funny. I have planted now 25 acres of trees. And yet you claim I have no understanding of ecology. My mavoko land is full of trees.
But I understand the dillema we face here.
You Githunguri people still depend on the forest for firewood, shamba system and name it.
Let us not romantize nature. It should be USED - sustainably if possible.
There is a reason why for millions of years populatiins in africa stayed low. We have seen the effects of trying to "tame" nature in asia and the west. Africa is fine. We need less "development" more natural. Actually modern medicine is harmful as it prolongs life than it is necessary. Rift valley is on steep decljne. Places like marakwet are inhabitable. Your own county kisii is over populated with kisii suffering from landlessness, poverty and displacement in large numbers.
Pundit has no understanding of ecology and how interconnected the earth systems are.
Moron planting blue gum trees and pine trees is not conservation. You are doing more harm than good. You need to think before you respond. Think pundit. Read a book because you are starting to argue like a makanga
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There is a reason why for millions of years populatiins in africa stayed low. We have seen the effects of trying to "tame" nature in asia and the west. Africa is fine. We need less "development" more natural. Actually modern medicine is harmful as it prolongs life than it is necessary. Rift valley is on steep decljne. Places like marakwet are inhabitable. Your own county kisii is over populated with kisii suffering from landlessness, poverty and displacement in large numbers.
Pundit has no understanding of ecology and how interconnected the earth systems are.
I agree. But we need to find an alternative. I remember years ago we were discussing turning Northern Kenya into farmland. What on earth happened to that idea? We could resolve homelessness, hunger, and conservation if we took that seriously. It would be worth whatever loans we needed to make it happen.
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I am not doing any harm. Yes natural forest would be nice. But sorry planting trees like tea or blue gum is still better than not planting at all like you.
The reality in kenya is we need blue gum for firewood - and timber - and building. These are trees. They may not be native to kenya - but they are trees. Tea is a tree native to China. Blue gum is a tree native to Australia. They are better than planting maizes - which are not trees - but crops.
While you romantize about trees - 45millions of kenya are now burning those trees to boil their tea.
Moron planting blue gum treats is not conservation. You are doing more harm than good. You need to think before you respond.
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Absolutely - we have to find a balance - but generally Sustainable Development is a mirage in poor countries.
Yes we can reclaim the barren land; give it to the poor; that would save the forest; But gov is not willing to invest in such? . It was therefore easy to let the peasant into the forests.
Are rich nations willing to help Africa save their forest - by financing such irrigation schemes?
Of course NOT. And trust me Kadudu and the Nyar here talking about trees have never planted them in their Nyanzabwe! Trees are not just for forest - it should be planted everywhere.
We need to find solutions both for the humans and the conservation/restoration priorities. We have so much land we don't use. If we could just reclaim it, we would solve both.
Yes! We need to find investors. We can't just say "Shauri yako, jipange" to the poor/landless. That will never work. All we will do is make noise while we watch the whole thing go down. The poor will not just agree to suffer for the "greater good."
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https://www.silicon.co.uk/e-enterprise/fund-raising/apple-200m-restore-fund-392891
We need such solution - Apple has given Komaza (they plant bluegum -commercial tree farming in Kilifi) - 200M dollars to expand.
We need practical solution that provide win win - for example commercial tree farming. This is what has helped restored forestry in Europe.
People can still plant trees for fuel, building and construction, energy - in a sustainable way.
Yes if there is enough water - do irrigation farming.
Yes! We need to find investors. We can't just say "Shauri yako, jipange" to the poor/landless. Tat will never work. All we will do is make noise while we watch the whole thing go down.
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No, it's you who don't get it.
Yes eventually the climate will change due to deforestation; but WE HAVE immediate needs; These families have needs NOW; eventually their kids will not till land; because our economy will have transitioned into industrial jobs. Eventually we will replant the forest; Just like Germany did - and are now correcting it.
You worry about future when people are worried about putting food on the table NOW.
Study your beloved Germany - they destroyed their forests to create farm lands - killed all the animals - came to Africa and other continents and did the same - and are now replanting them.
This is not true :D Repeating it over and over won't make it true.
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While you romantize about trees - 45millions of kenya are now burning those trees to boil their tea.
This is my point exactly. You either come up with a viable alternative or just wait for the whole thing to disappear, because you can't realistically ask those at the bottom to sacrifice for everyone. It will never work.
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What is not true. Europe destroyed their natural forest to create farm land in pre-industrial europe - and of course to cook food - and generate energy in winters. In early industrial age - they destroyed their forest to provide steam energy.
England 100yrs ago had totally destroyed their forest - they had 2-3% forest cover. No Africa country is yet to get there !
But now most of Europe have replanted back their forest (albeit not natural) and some have even exceeded their historical forest cover.
So yeah seek wealth first! and everything else will be given
This is not true :D Repeating it over and over won't make it true.
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Study your beloved Mavoko before lecturing me on what I should study.
We do not need to repeat mistakes others made centuries ago. Btw, at that time the Europeans did not have a population explosion. Even if there was, it was always disrupted by pandemics, wars, drought etc. So the population never grew steadfastly without interuption like in the case of Afica in the last 100 years.
Where is this industrialisation you are talking about? Kenya's industrial production has been steadly declining in the past 10 years. When will this happen with the country busy importing toothpeaks.
No, it's you who don't get it.
Yes eventually the climate will change due to deforestation; but WE HAVE immediate needs; These families have needs NOW; eventually their kids will not till land; because our economy will have transitioned into industrial jobs. Eventually we will replant the forest; Just like Germany did - and are now correcting it.
You worry about future when people are worried about putting food on the table NOW.
Study your beloved Germany - they destroyed their forests to create farm lands - killed all the animals - came to Africa and other continents and did the same - and are now replanting them.
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In USA even after reclaiming the forests, the ecological damage is irreversible. In my state chemical companies did what you are advocating and pollutted all big rivers. Our largest river is so polluted that they have fisheries guards partolling it to prevent fishing as fish in the river is contaminated. You do not know shit pundit about pollution in the west. Anway you are still a villager so trying to convince you about my lived exprience is not gonna work for you
Dupont had to dump its chemical company as the liabilities from 100 of years of polluting the enviroment almost bankrupted the company. Two years ago they settled a civil lawsuit in ohio for 1.6 billion. They have other cases that they will have to settle for about 2 to 6 billion dollars. The damage in ohio and west virginia is irrevesible. Tell someone who kid was born with no limbs that we need to pollute to be rich.
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Big deal. Nairobi river is polluted as hell. Get off your high horse and comeback to Githunguri where your own mother is cooking with firewood.
In USA even after reclaiming the forests, the ecological damage is irreversible. In my state chemical companies did what you are advocating and pollutted all big rivers. Our big largest live is so polluted that they have fisheries guards partoling it to prevent fishing as fish in the river is contamknated. You do not know shit pundit about pollution in the west. Anway you are still a villager so trying to convince you about my lived exprience is not gonna work for you
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Europe destroyed Europe - then went on to destroy America, Asia and Africa - and Oceania. They had population explosion more extreme than Africa. If you have option for poor people to find land to grow their own food or firewood or etc - please let us know - otherwise it idle talk to say we will not repeat the same mistake. We got not choice.
Study your beloved Mavoko before lecturing me on what I should study.
We do not need to repeat mistakes others made centuries ago. Btw, at that time the Europeans did not have a population explosion. Even if there was, it was always disrupted by pandemics, wars, drought etc. So the population never grew steadfastly without interuption like in the case of Afica in the last 100 years.
Where is this industrialisation you are talking about? Kenya's industrial production has been steadly declining in the past 10 years. When will this happen with the country busy importing toothpeaks.
No, it's you who don't get it.
Yes eventually the climate will change due to deforestation; but WE HAVE immediate needs; These families have needs NOW; eventually their kids will not till land; because our economy will have transitioned into industrial jobs. Eventually we will replant the forest; Just like Germany did - and are now correcting it.
You worry about future when people are worried about putting food on the table NOW.
Study your beloved Germany - they destroyed their forests to create farm lands - killed all the animals - came to Africa and other continents and did the same - and are now replanting them.
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Europe environmental degradation before recovery
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In USA even after reclaiming the forests, the ecological damage is irreversible. In my state chemical companies did what you are advocating and pollutted all big rivers. Our largest river is so polluted that they have fisheries guards partolling it to prevent fishing as fish in the river is contaminated. You do not know shit pundit about pollution in the west. Anway you are still a villager so trying to convince you about my lived exprience is not gonna work for you
Dupont had to dump its chemical company as the liabilities from 100 of years of polluting the enviroment almost bankrupted the company. Two years ago they settled a civil lawsuit in ohio for 1.6 billion. They have other cases that they will have to settle for about 2 to 6 billion dollars. The damage in ohio and west virginia is irrevesible. Tell someone who kid was born with no limbs that we need to pollute to be rich.
That's genuinely awful! But I see a difference btw industries/corporations polluting and our current problem of squatters. The two need different solutions. If the problem is squatters, we must ask why they are doing that, then resolve those factors in a serious way. We must also innovate ways to generate SERIOUS mullah from our natural forests that are compatible with conservation. S. African tourism is very seriously done.
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Europe destroyed Europe - then went on to destroy America, Asia and Africa - and Oceania. They had population explosion more extreme than Africa.
That tracks. Everything I've read about the origin and evolution of capitalism tells me Capitalism is cancerous. A system that nurtures greed and puts ZERO brakes on it. We must eventually find a different way to live. But now that it was exported everywhere, we can't lock those most screwed from bettering themselves in that system. The shift from capitalism has to be whole-scale/universal/everywhere. But it should start with those who've already developed.
Bezos recently set up a fund for finding environmental solutions. I wonder if such Capitalists wouldn't be open (for PR points) to funding projects like reclamation and repurchasing land back from squatters for conservation/restoration + resettlement in places like Kwinya? :D
I used to wonder why people like the Kenyattas never get satisfied. I thought it was some sort of "rich" curse. After reading about capitalism, I fully understand what's up with them. This thing is all about more, more, more . . . forever! Thats why it went from England, to the rest of Europe, colonies etc. It's now trying to go to space. It's INSATIABLE!
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Yes that evil part of capitalism. The great part - no other system has eliminated extreme poverty like capitalism has done. Capitalism encourage and rewards hardwork and innovation. But it need serious gov regulation to ensure for example damage against the environment. That is why we have NEMA and all these enviromental agencies..
The problem in Africa is not really capitalism - informal sector is like 80% - so the problem is poverty.
Once everyone is formal, legal, registered and accountable - it easy to enforce rules,policies and order.
Europe destroyed Europe - then went on to destroy America, Asia and Africa - and Oceania. They had population explosion more extreme than Africa.
That tracks. Everything I've read about the origin and evolution of capitalism tells me Capitalism is cancerous. A system that nurtures greed and puts ZERO brakes on it. We must eventually find a different way to live. But now that it was exported everywhere, we can't lock those most screwed from bettering themselves in that system. The shift from capitalism has to be whole-scale/universal/everywhere. But it should start with those who've already developed.
Bezos recently set up a fund for finding environmental solutions. I wonder if such Capitalists wouldn't be open (for PR points) to funding projects like reclamation and repurchasing land back from squatters for conservation/restoration + resettlement in places like Kwinya? :D
I used to wonder why people like the Kenyattas never get satisfied. I thought it was some sort of "rich" curse. After reading about capitalism, I fully understand what's up with them. This thing is all about more, more, more . . . forever! Thats why it went from England, to the rest of Europe, colonies etc. It's now trying to go to space. It's INSATIABLE!
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My view is we have both problems: small/local capitalists/cartels capturing the state and enormous poverty (because the former often act as obstacles to the resolution of the later via state instruments/good policies). However, I have long given up any hope of removing the small capitalists from their capture/position as a solution to the poverty problem. I focus my energies on what else can be done given we are where we are. Are there ideas that can be pursued around or even within our politics and its mess? These things/initiatives are small and already happening and I hope they get big enough to receive the support or at least protection/non-hinderance from the state.
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Everyone should do something about it.
Individual - poor - should do something about it - Get less kids/work hard/avoid alcohol drug abuse - get saved :)/educate their kids.
Gov - should continue with pro-poor policies - and social investment (in education/health).
Non-Gov - NGOS and donors have their spaces.
Private sector - should see the poor or the bottom as viable investment - if you consider the SCALE - there are few rich men - but billion poor people - so you're likely to make money if you invest in bottom pyramid.
In Areas of Environment - Find means and ways to commercialize it - people understand one language - MONEY - if it pays to grow trees - they will grow so many trees.
Ultimately this is going to take long time - maybe 50yrs - so be patient. Don't kill yourself.
My view is we have both problems: small/local capitalists/cartels capturing the state and enormous poverty (because the former often act as obstacles to the resolution of the later via state instruments/good policies). However, I have long given up any hope of removing the small capitalists from their capture/position as a solution to the poverty problem. I focus my energies on what else can be done given we are where we are. Are there ideas that can be pursued around or even within our politics and its mess? These things/initiatives are small and already happening and I hope they get big enough to receive the support or at least protection/non-hinderance from the state.
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Europe barbarians killed each other; that was not enough they killed animals; destroyed the environment; then proceeded to Africa, Asia and America to do worse. They now turn to mwafrika to go easy on trees and elephants which we have co existed with till they pushed us out of our lands. It is not that Finlays, Brookebond, Kakuzi, Delmonte found some special agriclutural farms set aside by they barbarian gods around here.
The destruction of coffee bushes in Kiambu has improved milk production and opened up useless bushes such as Kitengela.
The romantic view of coming to see maasais jumping with herds of cows only producing a cup of milk is madness. While even the beadsa nd shukas are from China as they don't want county government to give land to investors/ chinese who can set up say tanneries.
The recent chinese sweatshops model also shows you have to bulldoze out of this romantic climate change nonsense when you are dirty poor.
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100% endorsed your views. Nyar from Kisumo should read this again and again.
Europe barbarians killed each other; that was not enough they killed animals; destroyed the environment; then proceeded to Africa, Asia and America to do worse. They now turn to mwafrika to go easy on trees and elephants which we have co existed with till they pushed us out of our lands. It is not that Finlays, Brookebond, Kakuzi, Delmonte found some special agriclutural farms set aside by they barbarian gods around here.
The destruction of coffee bushes in Kiambu has improved milk production and opened up useless bushes such as Kitengela.
The romantic view of coming to see maasais jumping with herds of cows only producing a cup of milk is madness. While even the beadsa nd shukas are from China as they don't want county government to give land to investors/ chinese who can set up say tanneries.
The recent chinese sweatshops model also shows you have to bulldoze out of this romantic climate change nonsense when you are dirty poor.
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Why can't we help our people do this all over the semi-arid areas we have? These be Kenyans. And young. :D
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It not cheap - for average kenyan - such water system will cost 1M shs plus. Therefore the Maasai down there cannot afford it. That is why gov has to do MEGA dams - and give everyone cheap water.
Why can't we help our people do this all over the semi-arid areas we have? These be Kenyans. And young. :D
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Big deal. Nairobi river is polluted as hell. Get off your high horse and comeback to Githunguri where your own mother is cooking with firewood.
In USA even after reclaiming the forests, the ecological damage is irreversible. In my state chemical companies did what you are advocating and pollutted all big rivers. Our big largest live is so polluted that they have fisheries guards partoling it to prevent fishing as fish in the river is contamknated. You do not know shit pundit about pollution in the west. Anway you are still a villager so trying to convince you about my lived exprience is not gonna work for you
You want to,export nairobi pollution to kericho. You such a character. You never think before you post. If kenya cannot figure out latrines you thin they will figure out landslides. No wonder kipisigis are wandering in rv like zombies. There is already milllion acres of land that no one is farming.