Author Topic: Conspiracy Theories  (Read 6218 times)

Offline Garliv

  • Mega superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 419
  • Reputation: 0
Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2020, 10:04:50 PM »
To me, Regardless on who did 911 these guys have raised reasonable, sound and legitimate questions/doubts on the official story. And they have based it on science.

https://www.ae911truth.org/



I think a good chunk of 911 theories came from the left
Which ones? I don't consider, "911 was used as a pretext for regime-change wars in the ME," a conspiracy theory by any measure. It is emperical fact. If you're referring to "911 was a CIA hoax" variety, I believe I've seen that from Alex Jones and some groups of Musilms, the latter sometimes pushing the "Jews did 911".

Rather, the conspiracy theory Democrats have been pushing mchana kutwa is Russiagate. The idea that Russia somehow cost Hillary the presidency and that Trump is a Putin plant/minion is ridiculous. Respectable people only give it a thought because they hear it from pundits on MSNBC and CNN and can't fathom these guys are not an inch more integral than Fox, so they assume it's been supported, somehow.

Offline vooke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 5985
  • Reputation: 8906
Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2020, 10:15:48 PM »
To me, Regardless on who did 911 these guys have raised reasonable, sound and legitimate questions/doubts on the official story. And they have based it on science.

https://www.ae911truth.org/



I think a good chunk of 911 theories came from the left
Which ones? I don't consider, "911 was used as a pretext for regime-change wars in the ME," a conspiracy theory by any measure. It is emperical fact. If you're referring to "911 was a CIA hoax" variety, I believe I've seen that from Alex Jones and some groups of Musilms, the latter sometimes pushing the "Jews did 911".

Rather, the conspiracy theory Democrats have been pushing mchana kutwa is Russiagate. The idea that Russia somehow cost Hillary the presidency and that Trump is a Putin plant/minion is ridiculous. Respectable people only give it a thought because they hear it from pundits on MSNBC and CNN and can't fathom these guys are not an inch more integral than Fox, so they assume it's been supported, somehow.

You’d be surprised by the amount of intellectual dishonesty in these groups that is widely soared as ‘science’. I won’t  give you spoilers though, read on.

Thing with CTs is they are a spectrum. 911 theories are no different and in I’m certain there is some serious garbage 911 claims you dismiss without a second thought.  I used to be a truther and I recall making DVDs of Loose Change and sharing with my relatives sometimes in 2008 or thereabouts. How much you are sucked in depends on how narrow your source of information is.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Dear Mami

  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 1493
  • Reputation: 643
Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2020, 01:40:51 AM »
I am just learning of some stuff like cancel culture.  Why do you consider that unhinged?  It looks to me like people protesting behavior they consider objectionable.  That culture seems fine.  You might object to how they go about it, but the concept seems okay.
I took issue with the comparison (between them and alt-right) precisely because I see them as fundamentally different and incomparable. One is essentially overcorrecting, aka, good intentions, whereas the other is literally about causing serious harm to entire groups of people. They'd be counterparts if they advocated, say, the displacement/eviction etc of White people as 'reparation' for historical wrongs done to non-Whites.

That said, there are serious problems with this crowd. Stuff like #metoo tends to a kind of mob justice and in some way, it even seems to target black men a lil more harshly than White guys. But, just as a matter of principle, I consider slogans like "Believe women" to be incredibly dangerous bs. Women lie too, they are not idiots or saints. We came up with courts and the concept of evidence to sort things out when two people make contradictory claims for a reason. Anything else is highly regressive. They even try to cancel comedians for crying out loud: Tried to do it to Chapelle late last year and it backfired bigtime coz he's too popular, but would've destroyed his ability to do comedy if it was someone else.

My other issue with it, besides the capacity for ruining actual lives on someone's word alone, like has happened to many college boys (when girls decide after sex that they weren't into it, after all), is its weaponization. No better example than Elizabeth Warren trying to #metoo Bernie Sanders with that 'He told me women can't win' bs that even MSNBC were like, Come on. Dude asked you to run for president in 2015 and only ran after you refused, campaigned for Hillary, and is on tape decades ago saying women can be president when it wasn't a social score. It's basically a bat people swing disingenuously at opponents in politics. So, no, I do not consider college kids screaming at speakers on their campus or protesting on behalf of minorities to be in anyway comparable to the alt-right, but I have a ton of criticism for them, especially those I consider fake SJWs, as in, using it for political mileage only but don't actually give two cents about minorities.

Quote
I think you downplay the racist aspect of Republicanism too much.   It's out in the open.  The only thing not happening are public lynchings.  alt-right is the underbelly of the Republican party.  There are probably differing degrees of it.  But the tolerance for it is almost universal.  "I am not a racist, even though I pretend not to see it because I look away when it happens" seems to be in play for a lot of the "moderate" Republicans.

It wasn't this bad during GW Bush, but even then you knew what Republicans are about.  No,  they won't say their party hates minorities obviously.  But they do and say things where you know what they are about, just as surely as any Kenyan knows what Kimunya is about when he says "NSE is not a fish market".  The audience understands the polite fiction.

....
IMO the non-whites on the right are just outliers.  In many cases, they serve as useful foils to legitimate accusations of racism.
Yes, it's gotten more mainstream, that's for sure. And it's possible it's older (re the Kimunya fish example), but I also know conservatives who are terrified that if the SCOTUS goes super left, there will be jailings and future persecution for cultural conservatives. For this reason, they'll vote for anyone who promises them conservative judges. Everything else is less important to them. Now, I don't know what percentage this group is, maybe it's just 5%, but they exist. I don't consider people like George Bush racist, for example: his sins are of a different sort, corporatist warmonger is what he is. But dude tried to push immigration reform and did some good things for Africa's HIV fight, and his family have latinos in them.

Re non-White Republicans, besides paid shills like Candace Owens, many non-Whites on the Right are there for either cultural conservative reasons or they are Tea-Party ideologues like Ben Carson (He's obviously both, though), IMO. They aren't the majority group.

Offline Garliv

  • Mega superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 419
  • Reputation: 0
Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2020, 03:34:35 PM »
I would not be surprised. For 

I have considered all those avenues. Severally. And no matter what the official narrative is simply unbelievable. But then people can believe anything; even after all the hype that 911 terrorists were Saudi Arabian nationals, George W. and his regime convinced their fellow citizens and beyond that Saddam Hussein was somehow linked to it and had WMD, therefore Bush had to invade. Perfect science.

An explanation/narrative for an event can be changed several times and sheeple will believe every version even if they all versions contradict each other. That's the power of mass media...

One of my favourite movie is the MATRIX. For the gist of the storyline captures how majority are manipulated to believe/defend distorted reality and whoever else claim otherwise is a nut job or more fashionably, a Conspiracy Theorist. Mass media is instrumental in that "computer generated reality": the Matrix. As bitmask said one can have  "a grudgingly admiration" for that.


You’d be surprised by the amount of intellectual dishonesty in these groups that is widely soared as ‘science’. I won’t  give you spoilers though, read on.

Thing with CTs is they are a spectrum. 911 theories are no different and in I’m certain there is some serious garbage 911 claims you dismiss without a second thought.  I used to be a truther and I recall making DVDs of Loose Change and sharing with my relatives sometimes in 2008 or thereabouts. How much you are sucked in depends on how narrow your source of information is.

Offline vooke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 5985
  • Reputation: 8906
Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2020, 03:44:32 PM »
I would not be surprised. For 

I have considered all those avenues. Severally. And no matter what the official narrative is simply unbelievable. But then people can believe anything; even after all the hype that 911 terrorists were Saudi Arabian nationals, George W. and his regime convinced their fellow citizens and beyond that Saddam Hussein was somehow linked to it and had WMD, therefore Bush had to invade. Perfect science.

An explanation/narrative for an event can be changed several times and sheeple will believe every version even if they all versions contradict each other. That's the power of mass media...

One of my favourite movie is the MATRIX. For the gist of the storyline captures how majority are manipulated to believe/defend distorted reality and whoever else claim otherwise is a nut job or more fashionably, a Conspiracy Theorist. Mass media is instrumental in that "computer generated reality": the Matrix. As bitmask said one can have  "a grudgingly admiration" for that.


You’d be surprised by the amount of intellectual dishonesty in these groups that is widely soared as ‘science’. I won’t  give you spoilers though, read on.

Thing with CTs is they are a spectrum. 911 theories are no different and in I’m certain there is some serious garbage 911 claims you dismiss without a second thought.  I used to be a truther and I recall making DVDs of Loose Change and sharing with my relatives sometimes in 2008 or thereabouts. How much you are sucked in depends on how narrow your source of information is.

I have explored all 911 core conspiracy theories. As I said, I was there 11 years ago. To be frank they are all garbage.

Read the book and revert
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8784
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2020, 05:18:45 PM »
I am just learning of some stuff like cancel culture.  Why do you consider that unhinged?  It looks to me like people protesting behavior they consider objectionable.  That culture seems fine.  You might object to how they go about it, but the concept seems okay.
I took issue with the comparison (between them and alt-right) precisely because I see them as fundamentally different and incomparable. One is essentially overcorrecting, aka, good intentions, whereas the other is literally about causing serious harm to entire groups of people. They'd be counterparts if they advocated, say, the displacement/eviction etc of White people as 'reparation' for historical wrongs done to non-Whites.

That said, there are serious problems with this crowd. Stuff like #metoo tends to a kind of mob justice and in some way, it even seems to target black men a lil more harshly than White guys. But, just as a matter of principle, I consider slogans like "Believe women" to be incredibly dangerous bs. Women lie too, they are not idiots or saints. We came up with courts and the concept of evidence to sort things out when two people make contradictory claims for a reason. Anything else is highly regressive. They even try to cancel comedians for crying out loud: Tried to do it to Chapelle late last year and it backfired bigtime coz he's too popular, but would've destroyed his ability to do comedy if it was someone else.

My other issue with it, besides the capacity for ruining actual lives on someone's word alone, like has happened to many college boys (when girls decide after sex that they weren't into it, after all), is its weaponization. No better example than Elizabeth Warren trying to #metoo Bernie Sanders with that 'He told me women can't win' bs that even MSNBC were like, Come on. Dude asked you to run for president in 2015 and only ran after you refused, campaigned for Hillary, and is on tape decades ago saying women can be president when it wasn't a social score. It's basically a bat people swing disingenuously at opponents in politics. So, no, I do not consider college kids screaming at speakers on their campus or protesting on behalf of minorities to be in anyway comparable to the alt-right, but I have a ton of criticism for them, especially those I consider fake SJWs, as in, using it for political mileage only but don't actually give two cents about minorities.

Quote
I think you downplay the racist aspect of Republicanism too much.   It's out in the open.  The only thing not happening are public lynchings.  alt-right is the underbelly of the Republican party.  There are probably differing degrees of it.  But the tolerance for it is almost universal.  "I am not a racist, even though I pretend not to see it because I look away when it happens" seems to be in play for a lot of the "moderate" Republicans.

It wasn't this bad during GW Bush, but even then you knew what Republicans are about.  No,  they won't say their party hates minorities obviously.  But they do and say things where you know what they are about, just as surely as any Kenyan knows what Kimunya is about when he says "NSE is not a fish market".  The audience understands the polite fiction.

....
IMO the non-whites on the right are just outliers.  In many cases, they serve as useful foils to legitimate accusations of racism.
Yes, it's gotten more mainstream, that's for sure. And it's possible it's older (re the Kimunya fish example), but I also know conservatives who are terrified that if the SCOTUS goes super left, there will be jailings and future persecution for cultural conservatives. For this reason, they'll vote for anyone who promises them conservative judges. Everything else is less important to them. Now, I don't know what percentage this group is, maybe it's just 5%, but they exist. I don't consider people like George Bush racist, for example: his sins are of a different sort, corporatist warmonger is what he is. But dude tried to push immigration reform and did some good things for Africa's HIV fight, and his family have latinos in them.

Re non-White Republicans, besides paid shills like Candace Owens, many non-Whites on the Right are there for either cultural conservative reasons or they are Tea-Party ideologues like Ben Carson (He's obviously both, though), IMO. They aren't the majority group.


Sorry, I totally missed this.  The layout of the forum can hide a few things.  I understand your concerns about the Left's hardnose approach to some issues, e.g. believe women.  That said, I think Kavanaugh specifically was guilty and I believe his accuser.  But stuff like cancelling comedians, I am okay with that, as long as they do it fairly.  Society in general will ostracize people when they have violated certain norms.  Norms change from time to time.

About Republicans, George Bush for exmpale.  I don't think he is personally a racist.  In fact he has always seemed quite the opposite.  But he still had to appeal to racists to win.  He still had to be "tough on crime".  A "law and order" candidate.  Cut back on welfare and reward "hard working Americans".  That is generally true for a lot of neocons.  They have no problem with minorities, being more about American hegemony.  But they need the racist masses to win.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8784
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2020, 07:54:25 PM »
I started reading it yesterday.  I struggled through the introduction section, the one tells me how to read the damn book until I fell asleep.  I hope this preamble is worth it.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline gout

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 4255
  • Reputation: 1374
Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2020, 09:13:59 PM »
Dismissing conspiracy theories as false, means you have perfect information which is totally impossible in a dynamic and vast universe.

Well researched Out of Shadows documentary is conspiracy to some and fils gaps for others.
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one ~ Thomas Paine

Offline vooke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 5985
  • Reputation: 8906
Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2020, 09:18:58 PM »
Dismissing conspiracy theories as false, means you have perfect information which is totally impossible in a dynamic and vast universe.

Well researched Out of Shadows documentary is conspiracy to some and fils gaps for others.


You don't need perfect information to tell truth from lies or bullshiet, you need enough information
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline vooke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 5985
  • Reputation: 8906
Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2020, 09:21:08 PM »
I started reading it yesterday.  I struggled through the introduction section, the one tells me how to read the damn book until I fell asleep.  I hope this preamble is worth it.

Conspiracy theories are not everyone's staple especially if you have never dabbled in any or you have never encountered anyone close to you ruined by them.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline gout

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 4255
  • Reputation: 1374
Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2020, 09:32:02 PM »
This is a simplistic parameter on judging anything in life. One can be ruined by just about anything. This is the key premise of conspiracy theory; that there are groups of people who choose what we condemn and what we praise.

Processed oils/fat, sugar/sodas, junk food is the shit behind corona deaths but try a health warning on sugar, soda or chips. Conspiracy claiming those on crack or marijuana are doing have space.

I started reading it yesterday.  I struggled through the introduction section, the one tells me how to read the damn book until I fell asleep.  I hope this preamble is worth it.

Conspiracy theories are not everyone's staple especially if you have never dabbled in any or you have never encountered anyone close to you ruined by them.
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one ~ Thomas Paine

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8784
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2020, 10:15:02 PM »
I started reading it yesterday.  I struggled through the introduction section, the one tells me how to read the damn book until I fell asleep.  I hope this preamble is worth it.

Conspiracy theories are not everyone's staple especially if you have never dabbled in any or you have never encountered anyone close to you ruined by them.

I will plow on.  Still I think some conspiracy theories are harmless, even funny.  I have known an otherwise sane and decent guy who believed the Russians had several divisions hidden inside the US ready to strike at any moment with the collusion of the CIA.  You could not disabuse him of that idea.  But he is okay and functional.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline vooke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 5985
  • Reputation: 8906
Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2020, 08:58:06 AM »
I started reading it yesterday.  I struggled through the introduction section, the one tells me how to read the damn book until I fell asleep.  I hope this preamble is worth it.

Conspiracy theories are not everyone's staple especially if you have never dabbled in any or you have never encountered anyone close to you ruined by them.

I will plow on.  Still I think some conspiracy theories are harmless, even funny.  I have known an otherwise sane and decent guy who believed the Russians had several divisions hidden inside the US ready to strike at any moment with the collusion of the CIA.  You could not disabuse him of that idea.  But he is okay and functional.

Agreed. You’ll see the same sentiments there. You lose nothing by being a flat-earth buff other than failing some geography and science units if you are still in school
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline vooke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 5985
  • Reputation: 8906
Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2020, 09:02:56 AM »

Says whom/what?
This is a simplistic parameter on judging anything in life. One can be ruined by just about anything. This is the key premise of conspiracy theory; that there are groups of people who choose what we condemn and what we praise.

Processed oils/fat, sugar/sodas, junk food is the shit behind corona deaths but try a health warning on sugar, soda or chips. Conspiracy claiming those on crack or marijuana are doing have space.

I started reading it yesterday.  I struggled through the introduction section, the one tells me how to read the damn book until I fell asleep.  I hope this preamble is worth it.

Conspiracy theories are not everyone's staple especially if you have never dabbled in any or you have never encountered anyone close to you ruined by them.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline gout

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 4255
  • Reputation: 1374
Re: Conspiracy Theories
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2020, 10:45:16 PM »
Diabete, Cancer and cardiovascular diseases are pre-existing medical conditions (comorbidities) showing higher death rates. These cormobidities have been linked to processed oils/fat, sugar/sodas, junk food.

https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(20)30136-3/fulltext
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/

Says whom/what?
This is a simplistic parameter on judging anything in life. One can be ruined by just about anything. This is the key premise of conspiracy theory; that there are groups of people who choose what we condemn and what we praise.

Processed oils/fat, sugar/sodas, junk food is the shit behind corona deaths but try a health warning on sugar, soda or chips. Conspiracy claiming those on crack or marijuana are doing have space.

I started reading it yesterday.  I struggled through the introduction section, the one tells me how to read the damn book until I fell asleep.  I hope this preamble is worth it.

Conspiracy theories are not everyone's staple especially if you have never dabbled in any or you have never encountered anyone close to you ruined by them.
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one ~ Thomas Paine