Kenya will not develop with stories...it will develop by building stuff

[RV Pundit]

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15% of roads are paved leaving 85% dirt rough road.We have railway network of 2000kms and we are arguing over that...while South Africa has what 30,000kms of rail.I think more than 70% of Kenyans do not have access to piped water.About 50% of urban residents are living in slums.There is huge infrastructure deficit that needs bridging.The good thing once you lay down the infrastructure you reap for like 100 or 200yrs.So why not borrow 100B dollars in say a 50yr or even 100 yrs century  bond and fix all these issues once and for all...and let the future generations pay for it.But you want to argue about 5B dollars in 600kms rail.We need to dream big .100B is easy change in world debt market...then supliment by selling most of the parastals.With such monies we can completely eliminate dirty roads, dirty water, ensure every county has railway link, ensure every police or school or hospital looks decent, have superhighways and expressways every where...

[vooke]

Infrastructure follows production and not vice versa. Production attracts infrastructure. Production justifies it.

[Nefertiti]

Infrastructure follows production and not vice versa. Production attracts infrastructure. Production justifies it.

Yup - unless the infra is for humanitarian reasons - like the costly last-mile poor folks are yet to flip the switch - yet they continue burning wood. Superhighways and bypasses in metropolis while not as good as subways are ok investments because towns are centers of production. Traffic jams burn billions in man-hours and fuel. SGR is a vanity project with no economic justification. The 5Busd could have murrammed 50% of country roads in productive areas. Or build better schools. This is the real reason we need 50% federalism - priorities - and not because of Pundit's sour grapes over Gema betrayal of Ruto. Nanok would build granaries and boreholes as Kimemia murrams roads to Nyandarua potato farms. Hii ujinga ya Uhuru na Ruto is what we have instead.

The math and stats Pundit is running - about tarmack or iron kms - is just as a poor man wish-list of a house in Runda - does he borrow and pay later or work his butt off from Kibera? China and the Tigers EARNED the infra money by massive exports and forced slavish labor. The west looted African resources and enslaved black workers. Borrow & build is ignorance 101. And no, it is not "hardwork" which is Ruto's only punchline. Any lazy fool including old wheelchair-ridden Kibaki can borrow and lay steel or tarmack. It takes abit more THINKING to develop a nation.

[MOON Ki]

Infrastructure follows production and not vice versa. Production attracts infrastructure. Production justifies it.

Yes.  One would think that the smart thing to do would be to  produce and sell the stuff, so that there is something to pay for the infrastructure.  But what if the plan is just to use the  swanky infrastructure to ship in, say, loads of Chinese junk, with near-zero load in the other direction?   Payment?   Well, in these times---in which billions are "easy change in world debt market"---just borrow to pay debts.  And keep at it ... more Eurobonds or whatever.   Plus, don't forget: this stuff will last 100 or 200 years.  Of course some "negative" people have doubts on this ... how long do roads last in Kenya, how long post-independence did it take to f**k up the railways while the Japanese refurbished much-older narrow gauge lines that achieve higher speeds than Kenya's shiny, brand-new? ... negativity!

[MOON Ki]

The west looted African resources and enslaved black workers.

True.  But Africa hasn't exactly been doing much to help itself since independence.    It used to be Mzungu's forced tarimbo in the rear end.    He was forced to move it, but we now get it---and appear to invite and welcome it---at both ends: taking Kung Fu tarimbo at one end, sucking Mzungu one at the other end.   Economic enslavement all the way, all the time.  And the hoi poloi are clamoring for more of it.

The recent Senegal story is typical ... African "leaders"  helping West/East in  looting Africa and enslaving black workers:

https://www.globalwitness.org/en/press-releases/bbc-expos%C3%A9-on-10bn-deal-shows-bp-may-have-been-complicit-in-corruption/

What a world.   After all that struggle for independence, and with all sorts of heroes, here we are.   There is a Luo song, popular many  years ago, that testifies to the situation: piny ose mer ("the world is drunk"/"the world is upside down"):

[RV Pundit]

Infrastructure follows production and not vice versa. Production attracts infrastructure. Production justifies it.

When British were building the lunatic line all the way to Kampala and beyond what we we producing.Stupid theories like those keep us down.You can use own savings o aka equity or leverage debt to grow

[RV Pundit]

I excluded electricity - because we have more or less bridged the deficit there. Maybe there is some little over-capacity - but we have invested 8-10B dollars there - mostly through PPP. You see we didn't have to invest any money. All we did was to give power producers 30yr guarantees - and they've poured their money to build infrastructure needed in power sector. In Lake Turkana Wind Power alone - they poured 71B kshs - about 1/4 of SGR cost that you guys keep shouting about.

See how we turned from having only 12% of the country connected to power (about 300,000 customers if I recall) to 7M plus customers of KPLC now (75% electricity access)?

We need to do the same for roads (move from 15% paved roads to 75% paved roads), railway (move from rickety 2,000kms to 20,000kms - including the metros, light rails, mono rails, underground rails, whatever....but make sure there are railways and trains running around the country.

All we need to do is grab the money in debt market...what is 100B dollars...even your employer at Pablo Alto can probably tap into such monies...and build small stupid kids games. If we were to borrow 100B dollars....with maturity of 50-100yrs...we would be paying back...about 1B dollars annually..with interest of say 2%.

Just imagine what 100B dollars can do. It can fix all our roads. It can fix all our water & sanitation(sewage) issues. It can fix our housing issues. It can also help us build light rail in Nairobi and Mombasa. It can help build us superhighway from Mombasa to Malaba - from Namanga to Moyale.From Lamu to Lodwar.

Once you have fixed the basic infrastructure - then you can talk about investment, production, tourism, minning, name it.

Yup - unless the infra is for humanitarian reasons - like the costly last-mile poor folks are yet to flip the switch - yet they continue burning wood. Superhighways and bypasses in metropolis while not as good as subways are ok investments because towns are centers of production. Traffic jams burn billions in man-hours and fuel. SGR is a vanity project with no economic justification. The 5Busd could have murrammed 50% of country roads in productive areas. Or build better schools. This is the real reason we need 50% federalism - priorities - and not because of Pundit's sour grapes over Gema betrayal of Ruto. Nanok would build granaries and boreholes as Kimemia murrams roads to Nyandarua potato farms. Hii ujinga ya Uhuru na Ruto is what we have instead.

The math and stats Pundit is running - about tarmack or iron kms - is just as a poor man wish-list of a house in Runda - does he borrow and pay later or work his butt off from Kibera? China and the Tigers EARNED the infra money by massive exports and forced slavish labor. The west looted African resources and enslaved black workers. Borrow & build is ignorance 101. And no, it is not "hardwork" which is Ruto's only punchline. Any lazy fool including old wheelchair-ridden Kibaki can borrow and lay steel or tarmack. It takes abit more THINKING to develop a nation.

[RV Pundit]

How do you produces without basic infrastructure? railway network of 500kms is causing ruckus? paved roads of mere 15,000kms. DRC congo has 24 trillion dollars of wealth buried in inaccessible forests. You need to fix the infrastructure first - otherwise investors will rush to where it easy to get stuff done. Nobody is dying to go to DRC Congo despite all that wealth buried there. They need to fix their infrastructure first...

There is alot of wealth buried underneath 3/4 of kenya that is semi-arid and arid - but nobody will be going to turkana - or mandera - unless we build the roads, the electricity, improve the security, provide water and towns...and then watch investors troop

Yes.  One would think that the smart thing to do would be to  produce and sell the stuff, so that there is something to pay for the infrastructure.  But what if the plan is just to use the  swanky infrastructure to ship in, say, loads of Chinese junk, with near-zero load in the other direction?   Payment?   Well, in these times---in which billions are "easy change in world debt market"---just borrow to pay debts.  And keep at it ... more Eurobonds or whatever.   Plus, don't forget: this stuff will last 100 or 200 years.  Of course some "negative" people have doubts on this ... how long do roads last in Kenya, how long post-independence did it take to f**k up the railways while the Japanese refurbished much-older narrow gauge lines that achieve higher speeds than Kenya's shiny, brand-new? ... negativity!

[RV Pundit]

Mzungu invested in railways network of nearly 3000kms in kenya when kenya GDP was not even 1M dollars. That railway line gave rise to all current towns and economic corrindors. Nairobi literally grew from railway store or station..into the mega city it is turning out to be...and so have most of the other towns.

Long tales about corruption or politics or such noise being responsible for africa poverty is neither here or there.

Africa is poor coz it's poor. Everyone started poor. African are poor not because of corruption or politics or anything. They are poor because they were born poor.

And there is only one way to get out of poverty - to develop - to economically grow - and you only do that through investment for the future. You put some money today so the next generation will be better off. Investment in kids, in youths, in roads, in rails, in etc...is the only way forwards.

The west looted African resources and enslaved black workers.

True.  But Africa hasn't exactly been doing much to help itself since independence.    It used to be Mzungu's forced tarimbo in the rear end.    He was forced to move it, but we now get it---and appear to invite and welcome it---at both ends: taking Kung Fu tarimbo at one end, sucking Mzungu one at the other end.   Economic enslavement all the way, all the time.  And the hoi poloi are clamoring for more of it.

The recent Senegal story is typical ... African "leaders"  helping West/East in  looting Africa and enslaving black workers:

https://www.globalwitness.org/en/press-releases/bbc-expos%C3%A9-on-10bn-deal-shows-bp-may-have-been-complicit-in-corruption/

What a world.   After all that struggle for independence, and with all sorts of heroes, here we are.   There is a Luo song, popular many  years ago, that testifies to the situation: piny ose mer ("the world is drunk"/"the world is upside down"):

[Nefertiti]

Yes.  One would think that the smart thing to do would be to  produce and sell the stuff, so that there is something to pay for the infrastructure.  But what if the plan is just to use the  swanky infrastructure to ship in, say, loads of Chinese junk, with near-zero load in the other direction?   Payment?   Well, in these times---in which billions are "easy change in world debt market"---just borrow to pay debts.  And keep at it ... more Eurobonds or whatever.   Plus, don't forget: this stuff will last 100 or 200 years.  Of course some "negative" people have doubts on this ... how long do roads last in Kenya, how long post-independence did it take to f**k up the railways while the Japanese refurbished much-older narrow gauge lines that achieve higher speeds than Kenya's shiny, brand-new? ... negativity!

Well we call them Burgerbonds because of the efficiency with which the fallen Arap Rotich has been flipping them around. IMF -> China -> Exim Bank -> Eurobond ->  .. like McDonald's burgers. Of course the interest outstrips the principal with time. According to Sudi, Rotich and Thugge burnt the midnight oil scheming how to flip debt. Sudi and RV Pundit cannot comprehend why such hardworking folks would be shown the door.

[Nefertiti]

Infrastructure follows production and not vice versa. Production attracts infrastructure. Production justifies it.

When British were building the lunatic line all the way to Kampala and beyond what we we producing.Stupid theories like those keep us down.You can use own savings o aka equity or leverage debt to grow

The Brits firstly meant to use the rail partly to exploit natural resources but more as a military asset. A colonial protectorate and looting network using slave Indian labor. The 1900 rail was meant to sync the EA coast to Lake Victoria - to cover all that British EA hinterland - to link with the Blue Nile all the way to the Mediterranean - to checkmate the Italians who were battling the Amharics in Abyssinia - the Germans in Tanganyika - and the Belgians in the Zaire. So you see you cannot use that mzungu analogy - it was the Scramble for Africa colonial strategy.

[Georgesoros]

[RV Pundit]

Very lame. What has now change? Have our natural resources suddenly disappeared with end of colonialism. We need to build the rail to quote you - exploit natural resources and also use it as military asset - against alshababa ad to open up hinterlands.

And we are luckly we have western world with a lot of wealth (debt market is huge) willing to lend as well as Chinese will also to lend.

And more important - we do not need to re-invent the wheel - just borrow and build - and then pay slowly for 50-100yrs.

Once you've build infrastructure - all you do for next 20 - 50 - 100 yrs is to maintain. US electrified in 1930s. They built express ways in 1950s - and all that basic infrastructure still exists. Just few maintenance here and there - for wear and tear.

The Brits firstly meant to use the rail partly to exploit natural resources but more as a military asset. A colonial protectorate and looting network using slave Indian labor. The 1900 rail was meant to sync the EA coast to Lake Victoria - to cover all that British EA hinterland - to link with the Blue Nile all the way to the Mediterranean - to checkmate the Italians who were battling the Amharics in Abyssinia - the Germans in Tanganyika - and the Belgians in the Zaire. So you see you cannot use that mzungu analogy - it was the Scramble for Africa colonial strategy.

[RV Pundit]

But if you listen to negativos - kenya is going down economy is in doldrums. It's been doing that since 2005 when Raila was booted from NARC.

[Dear Mami]

Infrastructure follows production and not vice versa. Production attracts infrastructure. Production justifies it.

When British were building the lunatic line all the way to Kampala and beyond what we we producing.Stupid theories like those keep us down.You can use own savings o aka equity or leverage debt to grow

The Brits firstly meant to use the rail partly to exploit natural resources but more as a military asset. A colonial protectorate and looting network using slave Indian labor. The 1900 rail was meant to sync the EA coast to Lake Victoria - to cover all that British EA hinterland - to link with the Blue Nile all the way to the Mediterranean - to checkmate the Italians who were battling the Amharics in Abyssinia - the Germans in Tanganyika - and the Belgians in the Zaire. So you see you cannot use that mzungu analogy - it was the Scramble for Africa colonial strategy.

From what I know, the Brits refused to invest and spend a dime in that whole area for ages. There were debates btw the Foreign office, the colonial office, and the Brits in East Africa who wanted support because no one could show viability. They considered the entire area poor and without resources until Germany started eyeing land up north from Tanganyika. Then they (the Brits) panicked about the prospect of Germany blocking access to Lake Victoria by the sea, so the Brits quickly went about colonizing that whole area between the Lake and the Sea. That Lake was all important to them because of their REAL great prize up north (Egypt), they were never gonna let Germany get in the way of that, and everyone back then thought the Nile was entirely dependant on the Lake. After they determined to acquire us, they decided to try make some money off our land via farming etc, and they needed the rail to transport their people and their products.

[RV Pundit]

Long term thinking. Tanzania are building SGR just after kenya did - precisely for same petty reasons - but you can never go wrong with infrastructure.

The Brits firstly meant to use the rail partly to exploit natural resources but more as a military asset. A colonial protectorate and looting network using slave Indian labor. The 1900 rail was meant to sync the EA coast to Lake Victoria - to cover all that British EA hinterland - to link with the Blue Nile all the way to the Mediterranean - to checkmate the Italians who were battling the Amharics in Abyssinia - the Germans in Tanganyika - and the Belgians in the Zaire. So you see you cannot use that mzungu analogy - it was the Scramble for Africa colonial strategy.

From what I know, the Brits refused to invest and spend a dime in that whole area for ages. There were debates btw the Foreign office, the colonial office, and the Brits in East Africa who wanted support because no one could show viability. They considered the entire area poor and without resources until Germany started eyeing land up north from Tanganyika. Then they (the Brits) panicked about the prospect of Germany blocking access to Lake Victoria by the sea, so the Brits quickly went about colonizing that whole area between the Lake and the Sea. That Lake was all important to them because of their REAL great prize up north (Egypt), they were never gonna let Germany get in the way of that, and everyone back then thought the Nile was entirely dependant on the Lake. After they determined to acquire us, they decided to try make some money off our land via farming etc, and they needed the rail to transport their people and their products.
[/quote]

[Kichwa]

I am slowly becoming a convert.

15% of roads are paved leaving 85% dirt rough road.We have railway network of 2000kms and we are arguing over that...while South Africa has what 30,000kms of rail.I think more than 70% of Kenyans do not have access to piped water.About 50% of urban residents are living in slums.There is huge infrastructure deficit that needs bridging.The good thing once you lay down the infrastructure you reap for like 100 or 200yrs.So why not borrow 100B dollars in say a 50yr or even 100 yrs century  bond and fix all these issues once and for all...and let the future generations pay for it.But you want to argue about 5B dollars in 600kms rail.We need to dream big .100B is easy change in world debt market...then supliment by selling most of the parastals.With such monies we can completely eliminate dirty roads, dirty water, ensure every county has railway link, ensure every police or school or hospital looks decent, have superhighways and expressways every where...

[vooke]

Infrastructure follows production and not vice versa. Production attracts infrastructure. Production justifies it.

When British were building the lunatic line all the way to Kampala and beyond what we we producing.Stupid theories like those keep us down.You can use own savings o aka equity or leverage debt to grow

[GeeMail]

Mzungu invested in railways network of nearly 3000kms in kenya when kenya GDP was not even 1M dollars. That railway line gave rise to all current towns and economic corrindors. Nairobi literally grew from railway store or station..into the mega city it is turning out to be...and so have most of the other towns.

Long tales about corruption or politics or such noise being responsible for africa poverty is neither here or there.

Africa is poor coz it's poor. Everyone started poor. African are poor not because of corruption or politics or anything. They are poor because they were born poor.

And there is only one way to get out of poverty - to develop - to economically grow - and you only do that through investment for the future. You put some money today so the next generation will be better off. Investment in kids, in youths, in roads, in rails, in etc...is the only way forwards.

The west looted African resources and enslaved black workers.

True.  But Africa hasn't exactly been doing much to help itself since independence.    It used to be Mzungu's forced tarimbo in the rear end.    He was forced to move it, but we now get it---and appear to invite and welcome it---at both ends: taking Kung Fu tarimbo at one end, sucking Mzungu one at the other end.   Economic enslavement all the way, all the time.  And the hoi poloi are clamoring for more of it.

The recent Senegal story is typical ... African "leaders"  helping West/East in  looting Africa and enslaving black workers:

https://www.globalwitness.org/en/press-releases/bbc-expos%C3%A9-on-10bn-deal-shows-bp-may-have-been-complicit-in-corruption/

What a world.   After all that struggle for independence, and with all sorts of heroes, here we are.   There is a Luo song, popular many  years ago, that testifies to the situation: piny ose mer ("the world is drunk"/"the world is upside down"):

Pundit says tuache story yet he's spinning tall tales here. Kenya's lunatic express was not an investment of the Kenya nation but the investment in a British province. Kenya's GDP at that time is totally irrelevant. What was Britain's GDP in 1895?

[Nefertiti]

Pundit's is wilful ignorance cause UhuRuto. As if there is gold, diamond or ruby yet to be discovered that must be ferried by SGR. I saw Tuju on K24 or somewhere lamenting how noone in Africa can build a mulika mwizi. You need to produce hitec products to justify shiny rail - and the trailers would still beat it in fares. So long as we only produce rock bottom value tea and flowers or raw minerals - murram roads are all we need for rural and subway or efficient tarmac network in big towns.