Dear Nipate - is corruption good or bad for development?

[Nefertiti]

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The common denominator of the highly developed and prosperous countries is their little to zero tolerance for corruption.

The common denominator of the highly under-developed and poor countries is their high levels of corruption.

Nipate - let us discuss!

[RV Pundit]

I am not sure anybody can ever argue that corruption is good for development. What can be argued is that corruption doesn't necessarily impede development. Yes it probably takes a few % off - but you can still become a thriving swamp of corruption like Kenya has clearly demonstrated. What has also been observed is that as countries become developed - naturally corruption start dying - the more you economy grow - the less the incentive to become corrupt. Corruption is a crime. People weight the risk-rewards - the less the opportunities to live a honest life - the more the incentive to be corrupt.The scale of corruption also matters - somebody taking 10% - cream - is different from someone taking 90%.

As for development - that is complex multi-facet problem - some countries can tick some boxes including zero corruption and yet still remained mirred in poverty & misery.

[veritas]

Agreed. Corruption has shades of grey.

Developed economies can afford to put in practice the common or civil law and distinguish between the legislature, judiciary and the executive. Underdeveloped economies lack money so can't really enforce or implement, checks and balances, policies and procedures to keep those arms separate.

Developing countries are more akin to custom laws and later on for colonalised countries- martial law. It seems these arms in Kenya still function like a colonial structure. Colonial rule back in the day wasn't considered corrupt by standards back then.

[Nefertiti]

Pundit the most corrupt people are not poor - because you need power to access the coffers and enjoy impunity. We know this for a fact. Most politicians, executives, administrators, cops, are not poor but greedy.

However I believe the worst form of corruption is the democratized variety that Nigeria, Afghanistan, etc - and increasingly Kenya have. You see a problem like say drought & famine - it's spreading as ASAL climate encroaches on the deforested areas. The deforestation - and thus the deaths - is caused by corrupt forest officers, chiefs, APs, etc. Say again the high road carnage - as corrupt cops & drivers significantly contribute to this - the 000s of dead, crippled or orphaned would hardly care if the economy still grows despite the deadly graft.

On corruption and development, the success of highly corrupt countries which then shed off the vice is questionable. How many are there really? In the overwhelming majority of success stories, the monster is slayed first, then rapid growth follows. China and the Asian Tigers as good examples. Almost the entire West falls here too. 

Few developed countries are deeply corrupt. Russia is unable to achieve optimal status - as corruption impacts security, very low FDI, low productivity despite high per capita education, etc. Analyses has shown corruption is the biggest impediment to Russian prosperity and not Western/US sanctions. This also applies to Indonesia - stagnation at some point due to corruption and her nefarious symptoms.

Perhaps Kenya is special, but we are yet to see that. If we didn't have insidious graft - such as has rapidly happened with Jubilee - we would develop faster, better and sustainably. And avoid other by-problems like inequality, insecurity, carnage, drought, discord, name it.

Kenya has not demonstrated that a country can prosper despite insidious graft - Pundit you are wrong on that. It's far too early in the economic scales and larger scheme of matters national development to make that call.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

To be fair, in Kenya, when people talk corruption they mean embezzlement.  That's the worst form of corruption.  It's bad.  Of course.  It's like asking if routine mugging and theft of your earnings is bad for progress. 

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Pundit the most corrupt people are not poor - because you need power to access the coffers and enjoy impunity. We know this for a fact. Most politicians, executives, administrators, cops, are not poor but greedy.

That should put to rest the misguided argument that corruption will end when people are rich.  But will it?

On corruption and development, the success of highly corrupt countries which then shed off the vice is questionable. How many are there really? In the overwhelming majority of success stories, the monster is slayed first, then rapid growth follows. China and the Asian Tigers as good examples. Almost the entire West falls here too. 

There aren't many.  The statistics argument that I have seen you make before applies.  Outliers are just that.

[Georgesoros]

Robina
In my opinion corruption creates inequalities, that leads to all kinds of societal problems. Russia, Most of Asia and Africa have serious inequities due to rampant corruption,  It creates oligarchs who are above the law. Any challenge to their power is instant death (Kenya's recent murder of electoral supervisor).
I tend to think of it this way, If I had a family of ten siblings and one of the siblings kept stealing and manipulating the family belongings so that he/she can have everything, how do you think the rest of us will feel?

[RV Pundit]

You're lumping every evil into the corruption bucket. This classic case of causality versus causation. Are poor countries poor because of corruption or they are poor anyway. I believe all countries started poor - poor countries or families are poor because they are were poor - and to develop - they have to get right so many things.

The reason why corruption thrives is manifold. You can start from Kenya. The British handed over a non-corrupt gov. But that gov had it serious issues - it was small minority British and Indian system smooching on the majority of the blacks - they were able to get decent livings - through official corruption (like huge land grabs), big salaries & benefits. This is probably Rwanda's Kagame small tutsi elite kinda of situation -living an honest life - on the backs of 90% of hutus populace.

When kenyatta and the blackies came in - suddenly the cake became too small to be shared by the large majority who had won power - and the seeds of corruption was planted. Gov couldn't afford to keep salaries high. They couldn't afford to keep the civil services lean either. Fast forward to now when corruption is more than an accepted way of life now -

Luckly it's not corruption alone that keep countries down or up - it so many other factors. Trust me if Kenya had zero corruption now - it would still be poor country.

So we have to work on all factors and variables - that only way to get out of the morass.

Pundit the most corrupt people are not poor - because you need power to access the coffers and enjoy impunity. We know this for a fact. Most politicians, executives, administrators, cops, are not poor but greedy.

However I believe the worst form of corruption is the democratized variety that Nigeria, Afghanistan, etc - and increasingly Kenya have. You see a problem like say drought & famine - it's spreading as ASAL climate encroaches on the deforested areas. The deforestation - and thus the deaths - is caused by corrupt forest officers, chiefs, APs, etc. Say again the high road carnage - as corrupt cops & drivers significantly contribute to this - the 000s of dead, crippled or orphaned would hardly care if the economy still grows despite the deadly graft.

On corruption and development, the success of highly corrupt countries which then shed off the vice is questionable. How many are there really? In the overwhelming majority of success stories, the monster is slayed first, then rapid growth follows. China and the Asian Tigers as good examples. Almost the entire West falls here too. 

Few developed countries are deeply corrupt. Russia is unable to achieve optimal status - as corruption impacts security, very low FDI, low productivity despite high per capita education, etc. Analyses has shown corruption is the biggest impediment to Russian prosperity and not Western/US sanctions. This also applies to Indonesia - stagnation at some point due to corruption and her nefarious symptoms.

Perhaps Kenya is special, but we are yet to see that. If we didn't have insidious graft - such as has rapidly happened with Jubilee - we would develop faster, better and sustainably. And avoid other by-problems like inequality, insecurity, carnage, drought, discord, name it.

Kenya has not demonstrated that a country can prosper despite insidious graft - Pundit you are wrong on that. It's far too early in the economic scales and larger scheme of matters national development to make that call.

[Nefertiti]

You're lumping every evil into the corruption bucket. This classic case of causality versus causation. Are poor countries poor because of corruption or they are poor anyway. I believe all countries started poor - poor countries or families are poor because they are were poor - and to develop - they have to get right so many things.

The reason why corruption thrives is manifold. You can start from Kenya. The British handed over a non-corrupt gov. But that gov had it serious issues - it was small minority British and Indian system smooching on the majority of the blacks - they were able to get decent livings - through official corruption (like huge land grabs), big salaries & benefits. This is probably Rwanda's Kagame small tutsi elite kinda of situation -living an honest life - on the backs of 90% of hutus populace.

When kenyatta and the blackies came in - suddenly the cake became too small to be shared by the large majority who had won power - and the seeds of corruption was planted. Gov couldn't afford to keep salaries high. They couldn't afford to keep the civil services lean either. Fast forward to now when corruption is more than an accepted way of life now -

Luckly it's not corruption alone that keep countries down or up - it so many other factors. Trust me if Kenya had zero corruption now - it would still be poor country.

So we have to work on all factors and variables - that only way to get out of the morass.

You are right. It's why am puzzled when you support and sell the most overtly corrupt Kenyan in history as a God-send.

[Nefertiti]

Robina
In my opinion corruption creates inequalities, that leads to all kinds of societal problems. Russia, Most of Asia and Africa have serious inequities due to rampant corruption,  It creates oligarchs who are above the law. Any challenge to their power is instant death (Kenya's recent murder of electoral supervisor).
I tend to think of it this way, If I had a family of ten siblings and one of the siblings kept stealing and manipulating the family belongings so that he/she can have everything, how do you think the rest of us will feel?

Indeed. All the thieving elite pretend to be angels - and keep corruption at the top. Yet every villager knows the bitter truth. Now imagine Dr Moneybag who preaches the Gospel of Corruption to the masses as president? It would be a man-eat-man society - where folks can't help even an old cripple without some TKK. Once you democratize graft - by teaching kids to steal - you are dead and buried. Forget "leapfrog" and other pie-in-the-sky pipedreams - you leapfrog direct into the Badlands. It will be very hard to stop the virus once it spreads everywhere.

[Nefertiti]

They aren't many.  The statistics argument that I have seen you make before applies.  Outliers are just that.

Pundit's argument is something like: 1 out of 100 lazybones is rich, so there's nothing wrong with being lazy.

[RV Pundit]

Robina..I knew you were not interested in intellectual debate on corruption but in another roundabout way to hit with Ruto with spurious allegations.The fact is until Ruto is found to be corrupt he is clean.Therefore corruption become a non issues until one is found guilty and we focus on getting smart, effective, hardworking, organized leader like Ruto..or an old idiot like Raila who cannot ran a kiosk.The choice is easier than electing Sonko over Kidero.

[Nefertiti]

William Ruto is a national leader not a procurement officer. So he faces the court of public opinion. He throws big money around with no explanation of source - that's all the proof needed that he's a thief.

Besides, how can you we discuss corruption without Ruto? It's like discussing ODM without mentioning Raila. The two are synonymous more or less.

[RV Pundit]

Maybe you just woke up or you're newbie in Kenya politics..Ruto has always done the fundraising whether in gov or out...just like Raila never misses a funeral.All or none of them is corrupt.I think you're trying to drag us to your personal issues with Ruto disguised as corruption fight.Ruto as far I can recall has always attended harambees and contributed generously..at some point he was on Kulei retainer..but obviously he knows from Moi that fundraising works in garnering support... people appreciate generous donors.That is one of the reasons Ruto has achieved a lot in political leadership.

[veritas]

Ro stop taking things so personally. Ruto doesn't appeal to me but is there anyone else? He's got a sharp mouth and is a learned phd nutcase and that I suppose maybe the general direction the world is heading. These nutty types in power solving the world's problem through AI etc. and that's why I support Bernie. He looks like Einstein. Ruto gives me that vibe and if he marketed himself with dot com environmental solutions, that could resonate well with youth voters and democrats. He ought to ditch his Republican dream since he has no money & ancestry & switch back to ODM.

[Nefertiti]

Ruto is analog actually not "digital". He crams a few verses about Facebook and Twirrer for color. He is also a dyed-in-the-wool conservative. Doesn't support gay marriages, abortion or such un-African or un-Christian stuff. But ideology is alien in Kenya.

About taking it personal - a presidential candidate is really a punching bag - like Trump was called all sorts - his orange hair or casinos or sex life were all fair game. People are accustomed to very poor Kenyan standards so they give leaders a cheap break or praise mediocrity as greatness. There is nothing remotely great about William Ruto outside of lining up his pockets. But he is popular and savvy enough to win support by buying out influencers quietly. The way he dishes out cash fwaa is still bizarre to me - as he is an easy target for opponents - with minimal returns. He can sell his vision and ride Jubilee's and his personal achievements more effectively - than preaching the gospel of corruption to the masses - which is what he does now. He really ought to change his style - or be ready to be called out by Robina et al. That he has been doing it for years or learnt from Moi and Kulei is an irrelevant footnote.

Yes I know there is noone outside Ruto and Raila. I rather have the thief than a retard like Madvd or Gideon as president obviously. Matter of fact am ready to work with Ruto to build Kenya into the first real African Tiger... as his lead industrialist But seriously let us hope Kenya can recover from the seeds of evil being planted in the youth today.

Ro stop taking things so personally. Ruto doesn't appeal to me but is there anyone else? He's got a sharp mouth and is a learned phd nutcase and that I suppose maybe the general direction the world is heading. These nutty types in power solving the world's problem through AI etc. and that's why I support Bernie. He looks like Einstein. Ruto gives me that vibe and if he marketed himself with dot com environmental solutions, that could resonate well with youth voters and democrats. He ought to ditch his Republican dream since he has no money & ancestry & switch back to ODM.

[Nefertiti]

veri - I support the Bern but he is no genius. He has socialist ideals - like free college or medicare - which the US is rich enough to afford. There is no reason all these bllionaires should live on floating houses while others can't afford tuition or medical. Wahame kwa mwezi wakitaka - otherwise billionaires should be taxed 90% minimum. I give alot of $$ to poor folks and charity - I see no reason to rundika mamilioni past a comfortable financially secure life. The Socialist Bern all the way.

[Kadudu]

What a silly question. Does it mean out of the 42 million Kenyans only Ruto has the qualities to be president? Btw, Uhuru a lazy and uneducated drunkard has managed to be president of Kenya for more than 6 years and the country is still there. We do not need a superman. Even an average person can be president and we will survive to fight another day.
M motto is, anyone else but not Ruto. It will be Arap Moi II.

Ro stop taking things so personally. Ruto doesn't appeal to me but is there anyone else? He's got a sharp mouth and is a learned phd nutcase and that I suppose maybe the general direction the world is heading. These nutty types in power solving the world's problem through AI etc. and that's why I support Bernie. He looks like Einstein. Ruto gives me that vibe and if he marketed himself with dot com environmental solutions, that could resonate well with youth voters and democrats. He ought to ditch his Republican dream since he has no money & ancestry & switch back to ODM.

[Nefertiti]

We - at least I Robina - mean "there's no one else" in the sense the rest of the Johns are hardly capable of beating Ruto. If Uhuru and Raila don't concoct some poison for him Ruto is the next president no doubt.

What a silly question. Does it mean out of the 42 million Kenyans only Ruto has the qualities to be president? Btw, Uhuru a lazy and uneducated drunkard has managed to be president of Kenya for more than 6 years and the country is still there. We do not need a superman. Even an average person can be president and we will survive to fight another day.
M motto is, anyone else but not Ruto. It will be Arap Moi II.

Ro stop taking things so personally. Ruto doesn't appeal to me but is there anyone else? He's got a sharp mouth and is a learned phd nutcase and that I suppose maybe the general direction the world is heading. These nutty types in power solving the world's problem through AI etc. and that's why I support Bernie. He looks like Einstein. Ruto gives me that vibe and if he marketed himself with dot com environmental solutions, that could resonate well with youth voters and democrats. He ought to ditch his Republican dream since he has no money & ancestry & switch back to ODM.

[Georgesoros]

veri - I support the Bern but he is no genius. He has socialist ideals - like free college or medicare - which the US is rich enough to afford. There is no reason all these bllionaires should live on floating houses while others can't afford tuition or medical. Wahame kwa mwezi wakitaka - otherwise billionaires should be taxed 90% minimum. I give alot of $$ to poor folks and charity - I see no reason to rundika mamilioni past a comfortable financially secure life. The Socialist Bern all the way.

It used to be unheard of not to support the poor stay afloat, but Republicans changed everything. To them, The poor are lazy and need to work more so as to afford to live. They are a source of labor but only want to pay them peanuts. Any little handouts should stop so that they can look for jobs or start a business. Oligarchy will take over from democracy in the next 20yrs unless there is significant change. The monied will bribe their rich politicians who in turn will make it harder for the middle class to stay "middle".