Form 34A or 34B, Which is Final?

[vooke]

[vooke]

And it just hit me from the second clip

Elections Act Section 39(1C)(b)
(b) tally and verify the results received at the national tallying centre; and
(c) publish the polling result forms on an online public portal maintained by the Commission.https://www.iebc.or.ke/uploads/resources/stsPzf9498.pdf

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

The 290 declarations are to be preserved with whatever warts they may have.  That much I can gather just from these exchanges.  What else Chebukati is to do, I am not sure.  But it appears not having 10,000 34As on the scene is not one of those options.

[Kichwa]

This court should decline to answer a very specific  hypothetical question that may came before it for review.  IEBC is thoroughly infiltrated by Jubilee and they just want to make sure they know from the courts answer exactly how to steal and tie the court hands.  The court should tell Chebukati to read the law and then make a determination if that hypothetical were to happen and then if anybody appeals that determination then the court will make a determination.  Chebukati must earn his pay. This is why the framers of the constitution insisted that the Chairperson must be an attorney with the ability to read the law and interpret it.  He has a lot of resources and personnel at his disposal and he should be able to make decisions.  Just the same way the court of appeal cannot ask the SCOK judges hypothetical questions just so they do not make mistakes that could be overturned by the SCOK, this court should not allow its hands to be tied by jubilee. This court must tell Chebukati to do his job that he is paid millions for once in a while.

The 290 declarations are to be preserved with whatever warts they may have.  That much I can gather just from these exchanges.  What else Chebukati is to do, I am not sure.  But it appears not having 10,000 34As on the scene is not one of those options.

[vooke]

This court should decline to answer a very specific  hypothetical question that may came before it for review.  IEBC is thoroughly infiltrated by Jubilee and they just want to make sure they know from the courts answer exactly how to steal and tie the court hands.  The court should tell Chebukati to read the law and then make a determination if that hypothetical were to happen and then if anybody appeals that determination then the court will make a determination.  Chebukati must earn his pay. This is why the framers of the constitution insisted that the Chairperson must be an attorney with the ability to read the law and interpret it.  He has a lot of resources and personnel at his disposal and he should be able to make decisions.  Just the same way the court of appeal cannot ask the SCOK judges hypothetical questions just so they do not make mistakes that could be overturned by the SCOK, this court should not allow its hands to be tied by jubilee. This court must tell Chebukati to do his job that he is paid millions for once in a while.

The 290 declarations are to be preserved with whatever warts they may have.  That much I can gather just from these exchanges.  What else Chebukati is to do, I am not sure.  But it appears not having 10,000 34As on the scene is not one of those options.

[vooke]

The 290 declarations are to be preserved with whatever warts they may have.  That much I can gather just from these exchanges.  What else Chebukati is to do, I am not sure.  But it appears not having 10,000 34As on the scene is not one of those options.

34As at NTC are more like provisional results in the lead to nane nane. The Kiai case banned/forbade them but the mechanics was left intact hence the language of statistics and data. In short they are remnants of pre-Kiai Case era

[Kichwa]

The court can give an opinion on a purely legal matter but Chebukati is presenting to the judges a hypothetical factual issue and he wants the judges to apply the law and give him an answer which he will then use and tie the courts hands if his decision is appealed to the same court.   What kind of crap is that.   This is not a moot court.

Chebukati is being used by Jubilee.  They want to know how the court will rule so that they know how to steal.

Chubukati is being lazy and want the SCOK to do his job. He has an opportunity to create a precedent if the SCOK uphold his ruling. Most judges would not pass such an opportunity like that unless they were under pressure to do so. Like Maina Kiai, he has a chance to make his name part of a precedent to be cited 100 years from now.

Chebukati should find his answer in the  body of electoral law beginning with the constitution, the statutes and the case law. He can then look into how the case has similarly been adjudicated in the commonwealth and other countries.

Chubukati can start by looking into the laws governing discrepancies in vote tallies.     For example, where the number of votes in a polling station is more than the number of registered voters,  the votes from that polling station are  excluded from the 34B.

You cannot have the SCOK make hypothetical ruling under the guise of advisory opinion of a matter that is very likely to be litigated.

This court should decline to answer a very specific  hypothetical question that may came before it for review.  IEBC is thoroughly infiltrated by Jubilee and they just want to make sure they know from the courts answer exactly how to steal and tie the court hands.  The court should tell Chebukati to read the law and then make a determination if that hypothetical were to happen and then if anybody appeals that determination then the court will make a determination.  Chebukati must earn his pay. This is why the framers of the constitution insisted that the Chairperson must be an attorney with the ability to read the law and interpret it.  He has a lot of resources and personnel at his disposal and he should be able to make decisions.  Just the same way the court of appeal cannot ask the SCOK judges hypothetical questions just so they do not make mistakes that could be overturned by the SCOK, this court should not allow its hands to be tied by jubilee. This court must tell Chebukati to do his job that he is paid millions for once in a while.

The 290 declarations are to be preserved with whatever warts they may have.  That much I can gather just from these exchanges.  What else Chebukati is to do, I am not sure.  But it appears not having 10,000 34As on the scene is not one of those options.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

The 290 declarations are to be preserved with whatever warts they may have.  That much I can gather just from these exchanges.  What else Chebukati is to do, I am not sure.  But it appears not having 10,000 34As on the scene is not one of those options.

34As at NTC are more like provisional results in the lead to nane nane. The Kiai case banned/forbade them but the mechanics was left intact hence the language of statistics and data. In short they are remnants of pre-Kiai Case era

Chebukati's safest bet is to conduct very transparent and verifiable elections.  He does that, the rest is moot.  His hands are not exactly tied in that respect.  In any case he is not forbiden from coordinating the CTCs from NTC and ensuring the correct result.

[Kichwa]

Maraga and his justices are not going to fall for this trick.  They are going to tell Chebukati to do his homework and before the election and if that hypothetical became a reality, he should make a decision and when that decision is appealed to the SCOK, then the court will make a ruling based on a real case and not a hypothetical case that may not even happen.

The 290 declarations are to be preserved with whatever warts they may have.  That much I can gather just from these exchanges.  What else Chebukati is to do, I am not sure.  But it appears not having 10,000 34As on the scene is not one of those options.

34As at NTC are more like provisional results in the lead to nane nane. The Kiai case banned/forbade them but the mechanics was left intact hence the language of statistics and data. In short they are remnants of pre-Kiai Case era

Chebukati's safest bet is to conduct very transparent and verifiable elections.  He does that, the rest is moot.  His hands are not exactly tied in that respect.  In any case he is not forbiden from coordinating the CTCs from NTC and ensuring the correct result.

[Kichwa]

If  Chebukati finds discrepancies between 34A's and 35B, then Chebukati must make a decision-that is why he gets paid the big bucks.  First of all Chebukati needs to put his legal team together. Chebukati must then gather the facts as accurately as possible.   He  has the power to investigate and try to figure out how the  discrepancy occurred intentionally or whether it was just a clerical error.  Chibukati then must read and research the relevant law.  He has enough budget to do this very quickly by hiring lawyers clerks if need be.  Chebukati must then render a decision as to whether he should order a re-run in that particular constituency, or whether the discrepancy is not significant enough to change the result etc. Chebukati must put his decision in writing, clearly outlining the facts, the law, the reasoning and then the decision or the order.  Chebukati should then preserve the record and the evidence just like any court would so that  if his decision is appealed then the court reviewing his decision can have a good record. 

Chibukati should anticipate these kinds of discrepancies, put his legal team to work before hand and come up with legal strategies on how to deal with such matters should they arise. This level of preparation will make it easier for him to make a decision should such a situation arise instead of wasting his time going to the supreme court over something that falls squarely in his domain.

After verification what happens - if you discover the forms have issues here and there - what does Chebukati do? Ask the RO to varify or alter?  If he declares a whole constitutuency election invalid because the form has issues - what is implication on that ? Isn't that court business.

[vooke]

The court can give an opinion on a purely legal matter but Chebukati is presenting to the judges a hypothetical factual issue and he wants the judges to apply the law and give him an answer which he will then use and tie the courts hands if his decision is appealed to the same court.   What kind of crap is that.   This is not a moot court.

Chebukati is being used by Jubilee.  They want to know how the court will rule so that they know how to steal.

Chubukati is being lazy and want the SCOK to do his job. He has an opportunity to create a precedent if the SCOK uphold his ruling. Most judges would not pass such an opportunity like that unless they were under pressure to do so. Like Maina Kiai, he has a chance to make his name part of a precedent to be cited 100 years from now.

Chebukati should find his answer in the  body of electoral law beginning with the constitution, the statutes and the case law. He can then look into how the case has similarly been adjudicated in the commonwealth and other countries.

Chubukati can start by looking into the laws governing discrepancies in vote tallies.     For example, where the number of votes in a polling station is more than the number of registered voters,  the votes from that polling station are  excluded from the 34B.

You cannot have the SCOK make hypothetical ruling under the guise of advisory opinion of a matter that is very likely to be litigated.

This court should decline to answer a very specific  hypothetical question that may came before it for review.  IEBC is thoroughly infiltrated by Jubilee and they just want to make sure they know from the courts answer exactly how to steal and tie the court hands.  The court should tell Chebukati to read the law and then make a determination if that hypothetical were to happen and then if anybody appeals that determination then the court will make a determination.  Chebukati must earn his pay. This is why the framers of the constitution insisted that the Chairperson must be an attorney with the ability to read the law and interpret it.  He has a lot of resources and personnel at his disposal and he should be able to make decisions.  Just the same way the court of appeal cannot ask the SCOK judges hypothetical questions just so they do not make mistakes that could be overturned by the SCOK, this court should not allow its hands to be tied by jubilee. This court must tell Chebukati to do his job that he is paid millions for once in a while.

The 290 declarations are to be preserved with whatever warts they may have.  That much I can gather just from these exchanges.  What else Chebukati is to do, I am not sure.  But it appears not having 10,000 34As on the scene is not one of those options.

Body of laws and court pronouncements are contradictory. Just read Kiai case and SCOK judgement yet you want him to depart from our own laws and borrow from Commonwealth precedents? Try and look serious

[vooke]

The 290 declarations are to be preserved with whatever warts they may have.  That much I can gather just from these exchanges.  What else Chebukati is to do, I am not sure.  But it appears not having 10,000 34As on the scene is not one of those options.

34As at NTC are more like provisional results in the lead to nane nane. The Kiai case banned/forbade them but the mechanics was left intact hence the language of statistics and data. In short they are remnants of pre-Kiai Case era

Chebukati's safest bet is to conduct very transparent and verifiable elections.  He does that, the rest is moot.  His hands are not exactly tied in that respect.  In any case he is not forbiden from coordinating the CTCs from NTC and ensuring the correct result.

The subject of his application is verification which makes results verified/verifiable. Kiai forbade him from any verification holding that lower level verification sufficed. But SCOK and NASWA charged him with releasing unverifiable results because of the same reason. So this is far from a trivial matter.

You think for some reasons he does not 'coordinate CTCs'?

As I said, 34As at NTC are relics of provisional results era, and it's easier to do away with them instead of CTCs.

Another relic is text data accompanying images. Final results are on the images of forms 34A and 34B. If IEBC tallies and releases text data on the portal but relies on the actual images to declare results, there will be charges of cooking. Further, if they receive both but verify before relaying, it means text is provisional and irrelevant.

So they better release images and let the public do the tallying or sit pretty till 34Bs show up upon which they extract data, relay it to the public while preparing 34Cs.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

The 290 declarations are to be preserved with whatever warts they may have.  That much I can gather just from these exchanges.  What else Chebukati is to do, I am not sure.  But it appears not having 10,000 34As on the scene is not one of those options.

34As at NTC are more like provisional results in the lead to nane nane. The Kiai case banned/forbade them but the mechanics was left intact hence the language of statistics and data. In short they are remnants of pre-Kiai Case era

Chebukati's safest bet is to conduct very transparent and verifiable elections.  He does that, the rest is moot.  His hands are not exactly tied in that respect.  In any case he is not forbiden from coordinating the CTCs from NTC and ensuring the correct result.

The subject of his application is verification which makes results verified/verifiable. Kiai forbade him from any verification holding that lower level verification sufficed. But SCOK and NASWA charged him with releasing unverifiable results because of the same reason. So this is far from a trivial matter.

You think for some reasons he does not 'coordinate CTCs'?

As I said, 34As at NTC are relics of provisional results era, and it's easier to do away with them instead of CTCs.

Another relic is text data accompanying images. Final results are on the images of forms 34A and 34B. If IEBC tallies and releases text data on the portal but relies on the actual images to declare results, there will be charges of cooking. Further, if they receive both but verify before relaying, it means text is provisional and irrelevant.

So they better release images and let the public do the tallying or sit pretty till 34Bs show up upon which they extract data, relay it to the public while preparing 34Cs.

Yes, there are court rulings and all.  Then there is IEBC caught up in old habits and on that basis believing their hands(and especially Chebukati's) are tied.  That somehow Chebukati is barred from knowing and even directing that lower level.

What I am saying is, NTC need not see itself as something different from CTC.  They both receive the same set of 34As(ideally at more or less the same time).  If they can work together then Chebukati can even give the go ahead for CTCs to complete their 34Bs once he is satisfied they have all the 34As they need.

NB:Looks like there is a problem with the forum(database error). 

[vooke]

Yes, there are court rulings and all.  Then there is IEBC caught up in old habits and on that basis believing their hands(and especially Chebukati's) are tied.  That somehow Chebukati is barred from knowing and even directing that lower level.

What I am saying is, NTC need not see itself as something different from CTC.  They both receive the same set of 34As(ideally at more or less the same time).  If they can work together then Chebukati can even give the go ahead for CTCs to complete their 34Bs once he is satisfied they have all the 34As they need.

NB:Looks like there is a problem with the forum(database error).

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Yes, there are court rulings and all.  Then there is IEBC caught up in old habits and on that basis believing their hands(and especially Chebukati's) are tied.  That somehow Chebukati is barred from knowing and even directing that lower level.

What I am saying is, NTC need not see itself as something different from CTC.  They both receive the same set of 34As(ideally at more or less the same time).  If they can work together then Chebukati can even give the go ahead for CTCs to complete their 34Bs once he is satisfied they have all the 34As they need.

NB:Looks like there is a problem with the forum(database error).

You have to completely forget about how things were done prior to Kiai.  Throw it out.  Pretend it never existed.  Then look afresh at the laws.  NTC and CTC would then be set up under these new circumstances.  The point I am trying to get across is that part of the confusion stems from ingrained habits.  The workflow, in the mind of Chebukati(and yours too) remain the same as pre-Kiai, even though that is not the optimal way to implement the law.

[vooke]

Yes, there are court rulings and all.  Then there is IEBC caught up in old habits and on that basis believing their hands(and especially Chebukati's) are tied.  That somehow Chebukati is barred from knowing and even directing that lower level.

What I am saying is, NTC need not see itself as something different from CTC.  They both receive the same set of 34As(ideally at more or less the same time).  If they can work together then Chebukati can even give the go ahead for CTCs to complete their 34Bs once he is satisfied they have all the 34As they need.

NB:Looks like there is a problem with the forum(database error).

You have to completely forget about how things were done prior to Kiai.  Throw it out.  Pretend it never existed.  Then look afresh at the laws.  NTC and CTC would then be set up under these new circumstances.  The point I am trying to get across is that part of the confusion stems from ingrained habits.  The workflow, in the mind of Chebukati(and yours too) remain the same as pre-Kiai, even though that is not the optimal way to implement the law.

Chebu obeyed Kiai Case, no verification. If you watched the clips I shared yesterday and the SCOK judgement, they either are dumb or were too casual to appreciate what Kiai case did away with...explains why they charged Chebu with failure to verify

You are trying to beat SCOK at obfuscation because it hurts absolving Chebu..ok!

[RV Pundit]

The judiciary need taming if they cant resolve such basic issues.

[Kichwa]

The court will tell Chebukati to make a decision and then they will review it if brought before them. This is a mischievous law suit instigated by Jubilee and I think the Justices realize that they are being tricked into a trap. 

The judiciary need taming if they cant resolve such basic issues.

[RV Pundit]

So at the risk of annulling another election? and costing us all the money and time. Or you think this is Kalongo? If these judges do not appreciate the enormity of their decision & why IEBC need to clearly know in the simplest of terms what is expected of them - then next election should include a referendum to  return the judiciary back to executive - so the president can appoint or dismiss judges any day or night like Moi-Kenyatta era. At least the president is elected by 50% of kenyans - rather than handing these fools calling themselves judges power they cannot handle.

If judiciary prove reckless - Kenyans will tame them. The constitution can be ammended by Jubilee right now - via referendum or parliament.

The court will tell Chebukati to make a decision and then they will review it if brought before them. This is a mischievous law suit instigated by Jubilee and I think the Justices realize that they are being tricked into a trap. 

[vooke]

The court will tell Chebukati to make a decision and then they will review it if brought before them. This is a mischievous law suit instigated by Jubilee and I think the Justices realize that they are being tricked into a trap. 

The judiciary need taming if they cant resolve such basic issues.

You are desperate.