The Lesotho Solution is finally here

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

What is the legal path to secession?


I love how NASWA harps about a divided country. There will always be winners and losers in every election and the country is not divided between winners and losers. That's Babu's fantasy. Would he had been whining about a divided Kenya had he won in 2013 or now?

There is none that I am aware of.  It might require a change of constitution.  The hard part about secession is that it needs international actors in the form of recognition.  Otherwise you end up with a Somaliland kind of situation.

Thanks.
I edited my post and remarked that I doubt it'd have the blessing of the international community

Yep.  Many of them, especially in the AU, are terrified of secessionist movements.  If one can convince the AU that it is the right way to go, the rest are just formalities.

[Kadame6]

What is the legal path to secession?


I love how NASWA harps about a divided country. There will always be winners and losers in every election and the country is not divided between winners and losers. That's Babu's fantasy. Would he had been whining about a divided Kenya had he won in 2013 or now?

There is none that I am aware of.  It might require a change of constitution.  The hard part about secession is that it needs international actors in the form of recognition.  Otherwise you end up with a Somaliland kind of situation.

The politics of recognition are complex because the law is unclear and in practice each state decides for itself whether or not to recognize a new state or government usually based on its own interests. A consensus might build one way or the other depending on any number of factors. But I'd say that where Western interests are not implicated, the most crucial elements would be regional.

[RV Pundit]

Handed over to me: )

I can't blame you: You are reduced to recycling propaganda handed to you. You can no longer sustain an argument.

I was not addressing you. My focus is on those who may swallow your propaganda believing you have some knowledge of Kenyan history. So feel free to add the Bla bla blas. That I can't contradict.

[vooke]

I understand it looks like that. However Ndii has on many occasions clearly and publicly sought to distinguish his personal views and the views of NASA / CORD. I assume it is his nature and as a scholar. He sees a disunion between the two.

Association aside, it is NOT a NASA position.

Thanks for clarification. Ndii is on his own on this.

[Omollo]

I understand it looks like that. However Ndii has on many occasions clearly and publicly sought to distinguish his personal views and the views of NASA / CORD. I assume it is his nature and as a scholar. He sees a disunion between the two.

Association aside, it is NOT a NASA position.

Thanks for clarification. Ndii is on his own on this.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

What is the legal path to secession?


I love how NASWA harps about a divided country. There will always be winners and losers in every election and the country is not divided between winners and losers. That's Babu's fantasy. Would he had been whining about a divided Kenya had he won in 2013 or now?

There is none that I am aware of.  It might require a change of constitution.  The hard part about secession is that it needs international actors in the form of recognition.  Otherwise you end up with a Somaliland kind of situation.

The politics of recognition are complex because the law is unclear and in practice each state decides for itself whether or not to recognize a new state or government usually based on its own interests. A consensus might build one way or the other depending on any number of factors. But I'd say that where Western interests are not implicated, the most crucial elements would be regional.

I agree.  And that is where AU comes in.  AU states have a good reason to fear secession, because most of them are just entities cobbled by bazungu for the benefit of the west.

[Omollo]

Remember there is oil in Turkana. Uganda needs Mombasa

I agree.  And that is where AU comes in.  AU states have a good reason to fear secession, because most of them are just entities cobbled by bazungu for the benefit of the west.

[Kadame6]

Yep.  Many of them, especially in the AU, are terrified of secessionist movements.  If one can convince the AU that it is the right way to go, the rest are just formalities.

Yes, in general, states are not into anything that threatens their "territorial integrity" including Bazungu states. But there is a lot that determines these things and I'd say it's a case by case basis for each as there is no clear rule. If it happened in a peaceful/legal process, if the rest are convinced of genuine reasons for it (there are good arguments that could be made that Kenya couldn't qualify, seeing as it's not an apartheid state (clear oppression of those who want to secede) or something along those lines), Western interests will also screw everything up whichever direction that pleases them as we all unfortunately know. In general, the world is pro "internal self-determination" (non-discrimination. equal participation etc etc) but weary of "external self-determination" (new states etc) but go that way depending on the politics of the day. It'd be hard to tell at this point how that would end up.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Remember there is oil in Turkana. Uganda needs Mombasa

I agree.  And that is where AU comes in.  AU states have a good reason to fear secession, because most of them are just entities cobbled by bazungu for the benefit of the west.

Oil and any other natural resources would actually raise the stakes further.  Still, if secession is just a means of getting some other people a chance to loot, it may not be materially any different than what we currently have.

[vooke]

Remember there is oil in Turkana. Uganda needs Mombasa

I agree.  And that is where AU comes in.  AU states have a good reason to fear secession, because most of them are just entities cobbled by bazungu for the benefit of the west.

Call me a cynic but I doubt oil is a bargaining chip. Unless the prices shoot back up to $80 a barrel, I think ours will remain firmly under. Jubilee manufactured a hero in Nanok out of nothing

[RV Pundit]

How is South Sudan doing. That should be clue for those calling for secession. On which ground? inability to win PORK You can get all AU or UN or US permission to secede but now way kenya will allow an inch of it's territory to secede peacefully. You got to fight for it. You have no stomach for such a fight.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

How is South Sudan doing. That should be clue for those calling for secession. On which ground? inability to win PORK You can get all AU or UN or US permission to secede but now way kenya will allow an inch of it's territory to secede peacefully. You got to fight for it. You have no stomach for such a fight.

There might indeed be a fight if that is the direction it takes.  But if one can garner international recognition, that is just a formality.  A bloody one for sure, but a formality.

[Omollo]

First get war out of your mind.

Then think about the issue that Kadame raised: Recognition.

Now conjure up Somaliland and ask yourself why it is not being recognized? Before you answer ask yourself again: If they had diamonds or Oil or some rare mineral, how long would China or US take before elbowing Russia and the EU for those resources in exchange for recognition?

Think of South Sudan. It was a forgotten war. Until someone stumbled on oil. I could not count the number of secret runways built in the middle of highways by different countries as "aid".

I think Oil prices will rise again. But the power of oil countries will be diminished. As soon as fracking ends, the oil prices will shoot up. Many experts have given hydraulic fracturing (fracking) a shorter lifespan than the industry itself admits.

 

Call me a cynic but I doubt oil is a bargaining chip. Unless the prices shoot back up to $80 a barrel, I think ours will remain firmly under. Jubilee manufactured a hero in Nanok out of nothing

[RV Pundit]

A raving lunatic

[Omollo]

Bakassi region was settled peacefully between Nigeria and Cameroon. Eritrea though fought over eventually gained freedom peacefully by agreement between the parties following the fall of the dictator.

South Sudan the same.

Plenty of precedents.

There might indeed be a fight if that is the direction it takes.  But if one can garner international recognition, that is just a formality.  A bloody one for sure, but a formality.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Bakassi region was settled peacefully between Nigeria and Cameroon. Eritrea though fought over eventually gained freedom peacefully by agreement between the parties following the fall of the dictator.

South Sudan the same.

Plenty of precedents.

There might indeed be a fight if that is the direction it takes.  But if one can garner international recognition, that is just a formality.  A bloody one for sure, but a formality.

I think the recognition part is the most important.  If you can get the backing of the major international players, you are home and dry.  Biafra did not fail because Igbos have small dicks, but because they only got TZ and maybe another country to recognize them.

[KenyanPlato]

I, Okiya Omtatah Okoiti, am for self determination but not through cessation.
I strongly believe that we have a design flaw in our Constitution, wherein we devolved all organs of governance except the presidency.
Hence, for me, the solution lies in amending Article 138 of the Constitution to devolve the presidency by removing the provision inadvertently created in law for the ethnic mobilisation of the national electorate at presidential elections.
There is the urgent need to fully devolve the presidency to the 47 counties, the way the American founding fathers devolved their presidency to all the states that make up the United States of America.
It is only by ensuring that a President is elected by a popular vote weighted at the county level and not nationally that the stranglehold on national politics by the big five tribes will be broken.
Each county would be assigned the number of electoral points equivalent to the number of constituencies it has plus one extra point underscoring that all counties are equal.
We have 290 constituencies + 47 counties totalling 337 electoral points.
One would be required to win the popular vote in the number of counties required to garner at least 169 electoral points (being more than half (or 50% + 1) of the points). That way, the big five tribes (Luhyia, Kamba, & Luo (i.e. NASA) on the one hand, & the Kalejin & Kikuyu (Jubilee) on the other), which dominate national politics in Kenya simply due to their sizeable populations will be cut down to size given that significant members of these five tribes are minorities in other counties.
The tribes only become significant when tallied nationally. When tallied at the county level, even Lamu County with only two constituencies would have three vital electoral points which, though not enough to produce a president, can prevent one from being a president.
Hence, Lamu will not be insignificant in the scheme of things, & those seeking the presidency will not flaunt the national sizes of their tribes at Lamu; they will tell Lamu their agenda for the county. And with that, the seeds for issue based national politics would have been planted and even an El Molo with the right ideas will have a realistic opportunity to be elected the President of Kenya.
Regards,
Omtatah.

[Georgesoros]

Credible solutions people, not this CRAP!

[bryan275]

This is fantastic news.  Let Uthamakistan anoint their leader and his sidekick for life. 

No hard feelings, it's just about having a healthy sense of right and wrong and loving justice, freedom etc.

Divorce now!

[Empedocles]

I understand your desire to link NASA to secession can not be overcome. But try to be objective and demand to know NASA position on the matter.

It seems to have started with that fool Empedocles posting the Ndii document as the "Raila Presidential Petition".  It is now catching on. It is a good thing for Ndii as no publicity is bad publicity. Sadly promoting it amounts to deliberate misleading. Note that today being Idiot Day, there are so many people swallowing all manner of falsehoods. I expect you not to help the spread of falsehoods. Raila and NASA do not support secession.

In fact Raila just launched a campaign to restore Electoral Justice in Kenya.

 

What is the legal path to secession?


I love how NASWA harps about a divided country. There will always be winners and losers in every election and the country is not divided between winners and losers. That's Babu's fantasy. Would he had been whining about a divided Kenya had he won in 2013 or now?

Omollo, I strongly request you to refrain from using abusive language against anyone here. Try, no matter how hard you may find it, to remain civil.

Kapisch?

Now to the matter at hand, as I had outlined in the other thread. David Ndii, on behalf of NASA and/or with NASA's approval, is directly threatening the SCOK through veiled threats and intimidation. It doesn't take a genius to figure out why. Ndii, as a representative of NASA, is not stupid. He knows very well that the petition doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Did you read the transcript of RAO's speech at Joho's swearing in?







Same play book, as I'd earlier written (which you vehemently denied).

And the sad thing, you're falling for it yet again.

Oh, and one other thing; this move by NASA is doomed to fail, not because of Jubilee but because of the way NASA bungled it. Don't you realize that even the international community can see right through this sad and pathetic attempt?

Don't bother raging against me, rage against the architects of this misguided and desperate move.