Abortion and Adventism

[vooke]

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Nuff Sed,
What's your church's position?

[vooke]

Like Paul, no Christian should be a wimp when it comes to their doctrine. That's hypocrisy. If it is so embarrassing, just drop it.

If you are pro-Life like kadame, say so. If like Termie, to you Christianity is primitive BS acceptable  ONLY to  low IQ primates, say so

Romans 1:16 (KJV)
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek

In March, 1970, the general conference officers met to discuss this question. Neal Wilson, then president of the North American Division, made a statement on March 17 that was picked up by the Religious News Service. He was quoted as saying,

. Because we realize we are confronted by big problems of hunger and over population we do not oppose family planning and appropriate endeavors to control population.8

CONTD...

[mya88]

vooke

Before you get on DB, what is your position on Abortion....What is your church's position? Does your position have to align with the churches position? There are laws that govern such issues in the best interest of those affected. What if the circumstances for such was rape......Does your position then change? What doe scripture say about it?

[vooke]

vooke

Before you get on DB, what is your position on Abortion

hi mya88,
No abortion unless under strict medical prescription, reason being, the fetus is as human as the mother.

....What is your church's position?

The closest church I can call 'church' is Presbyterian though I differed with them on many points. I have never read the official position but they are basically pro-life not unlike Catholicism.
 

Does your position have to align with the churches position?

I believe it should. Amos 3:3, how can you walk together except you be agreed?

There are laws that govern such issues in the best interest of those affected. What if the circumstances for such was rape......Does your position then change?

No it doesn't.

What doe scripture say about it?

Abortion is not mentioned in the scriptures but sanctity of life is very much there. Debates of when life starts are as old as man. Some like SDAs reckon it starts at birth, I think it starts much earlier, at conception.

Here are the verses I use to arrive at my position
Exodus 21:22-23 (KJV)
 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

Two suckas duke it out and hurt a pregnant woman causing miscarriage, the offender pays whatever the hubby demands. IF it was malicious, death. This means the unborn is regarded as fully human and miscarriage as murder. For this reason am pro-life.

Flipping the question(s) back to you. Please answer them.

[mya88]

vooke

I am pro-life. I don't agree with abortion for the mere reason that human life is involved. I am more lenient when a serious medical condition or risk of maternal mortality is involved or even when it is rape. Children are a blessing so most people engage in the process knowingly and with expectation.

When it comes to rape, the participant is unwilling and the results probably unwanted(an assumption on my part). In that case., I have no problem with termination very very early on (Within 2 weeks) if the participant so chooses. I am sympathetic to the victim and would support whatever decision they make. There is a pill that potentially prevents any pregnancy if taken within 72 hours of an 'encounter' (I am struggling with words to use). In this case it could be used if the rape victim so chooses because its impossible to know if conception has occurred within that 72 hour. 

My church is against any type of abortion so my views differ slightly. The question then becomes, when is it even considered viable....ie when we here the heart beat or at conception. I don't know the answer and the debate about that rages on among pro and against abortion proponents.

Now do you know that in vitro fertilization, the sperm and egg are combined and fertilized before being placed in a womans womb. In essence, fertilization or conception occurs right outside the body. What if those fertilized embroy are discarded......do you consider that murder?

When the fertilized egg divides, it becomes an embryo. Laboratory staff will regularly check the embryo to make sure it is growing properly. Within about 5 days, a normal embryo has several cells that are actively dividing.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/007279.htm

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Abortion I support it within the first trimester, preferably the first month.  It wades into dubious territory in the later months when the fetus becomes more than a clump of cells.

There are people who believe these things, including the in-vitros mya88 mentions, risk eternal damnation or go to limbo if not baptized.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

If like Termie, to you Christianity is primitive BS acceptable  ONLY to  low IQ primates, say so

. Because we realize we are confronted by big problems of hunger and over population we do not oppose family planning and appropriate endeavors to control population.8

CONTD...

A fabrication.  While I have said religiosity statistically correlates with low IQ before, I think that is true only in the West.  In fact I thought that the converse might be true in places like Africa.  Never underestimate the impact that missionaries had on education in Africa.

[vooke]

A fabrication.  While I have said religiosity statistically correlates with low IQ before, I think that is true only in the West.  In fact I thought that the converse might be true in places like Africa.  Never underestimate the impact that missionaries had on education in Africa.

Wewe Termie you are being another Peter, denying your core beliefs where it matters most. Reading your posts, it feels like you have figured the most objective measure of IQ as religion....anyways, it is well

[Bella]

A really interesting, serious and emotive subject. I shall follow the tradition above.

vooke

Before you get on DB, what is your position on Abortion

hi mya88,
No abortion unless under strict medical prescription, reason being, the fetus is as human as the mother.

The word abortion is used in different senses, so I'm not sure I agree/disagree with either one of you. I believe in the principle of "double effect" my church recognizes: that is, if taking an action that saves a mother or otherwise helps her in a serious condition results in the pain or even the death of the baby, I do not consider that murder/evil/abortion. So I do support it in those circumstances. But from what I've read on the subject, it's never necessary to directly target the baby for killing per-se as if the baby is some sort of virus/bacteria or disease. It's only that some procedures/medication intended to save/help the mother might be harmful or even fatal to the baby, but the death of the baby is not the targeted goal of the procedure/medication, even though it is foreseeable. So with this exception, I agree with you two.

....What is your church's position?

The closest church I can call 'church' is Presbyterian though I differed with them on many points. I have never read the official position but they are basically pro-life not unlike Catholicism.

My church's position I think is widely known in a general sense, though the technicalities/intricacies are a different matter.

There are laws that govern such issues in the best interest of those affected. What if the circumstances for such was rape......Does your position then change?

No it doesn't.

Neither does mine change. Though asking the woman to bear the pregnancy is asking a mountain of a sacrifice. However, I see the baby born of such circumstances as being as much a victim as the woman forced into that situation. Sad situation whichever way you look at it.

Abortion is not mentioned in the scriptures but sanctity of life is very much there. Debates of when life starts are as old as man. Some like SDAs reckon it starts at birth, I think it starts much earlier, at conception.

Here are the verses I use to arrive at my position
Exodus 21:22-23 (KJV)
 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

Two suckas duke it out and hurt a pregnant woman causing miscarriage, the offender pays whatever the hubby demands. IF it was malicious, death. This means the unborn is regarded as fully human and miscarriage as murder. For this reason am pro-life.

Flipping the question(s) back to you. Please answer them.

I believe life starts at conception. Only then do you have biologically distinct organisms from the mother/father, and these organisms if uninterfered with, will become you and me. Any other demarcation given to determine the humanity of the baby is arbitrary and unscientific, not to mention immoral. If we don't know when a human life starts, we shouldn't be playing Russian-roulette guessing-games with it.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

A fabrication.  While I have said religiosity statistically correlates with low IQ before, I think that is true only in the West.  In fact I thought that the converse might be true in places like Africa.  Never underestimate the impact that missionaries had on education in Africa.

Wewe Termie you are being another Peter, denying your core beliefs where it matters most. Reading your posts, it feels like you have figured the most objective measure of IQ as religion....anyways, it is well

I believe religion is part of us.  That is the card evolution has dealt us.  Excess CPU cycles.  We can do good or evil with it.  Just for the record, I don't know why people are religious.

My views on IQ or what it measures remain in flux.  I tend to lean towards the notion that it is a measure of how much one can conform to a certain way of life.  Homo sapiens is a wild animal with varying adaptations.

When you talk religion, I often get the impression that you contrast it with atheism.  That is a false dichotomy in my opinion.

[vooke]

A fabrication.  While I have said religiosity statistically correlates with low IQ before, I think that is true only in the West.  In fact I thought that the converse might be true in places like Africa.  Never underestimate the impact that missionaries had on education in Africa.

Wewe Termie you are being another Peter, denying your core beliefs where it matters most. Reading your posts, it feels like you have figured the most objective measure of IQ as religion....anyways, it is well

I believe religion is part of us.  That is the card evolution has dealt us.  Excess CPU cycles.  We can do good or evil with it.  Just for the record, I don't know why people are religious.

My views on IQ or what it measures remain in flux.  I tend to lean towards the notion that it is a measure of how much one can conform to a certain way of life.  Homo sapiens is a wild animal with varying adaptations.

When you talk religion, I often get the impression that you contrast it with atheism.  That is a false dichotomy in my opinion.

No speeches please, am not even half serious

Profuse apologies for annoying your sensibilities

[vooke]

kadame and mya88,
The other day a buddy engaged in a debate over divorce and remarriage (don't ask for my views on either yet). Later he told me he was exasperated by the attitudes participants exhibited, some self-righteousness. I told him it is because they was hypothesizing. If they was actually going through it, they opinions would be mighty different. Job was a counsellor but when tragedy struck, he sank into depression....will get u the verse.

On rape and abortion, some Naijas have been going over that especially over the rescued Chibook girls. Many was pregnant. Question was posed to both Muslims and Christians on how to handle the pregnancy. That's a real scenario not hypothesizing.

While rape is equally if not more emotive than abortion, I think the difference between a rape pregnancy and consensual sex unplanned/unwanted pregnancy are not quite dissimilar. BOTH are unwanted, unplanned. From a psychological perspective, is a rape pregnancy and parenting more devastating than a normal unplanned one, ama we just assume it scars the mother more?

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

A fabrication.  While I have said religiosity statistically correlates with low IQ before, I think that is true only in the West.  In fact I thought that the converse might be true in places like Africa.  Never underestimate the impact that missionaries had on education in Africa.

Wewe Termie you are being another Peter, denying your core beliefs where it matters most. Reading your posts, it feels like you have figured the most objective measure of IQ as religion....anyways, it is well

I believe religion is part of us.  That is the card evolution has dealt us.  Excess CPU cycles.  We can do good or evil with it.  Just for the record, I don't know why people are religious.

My views on IQ or what it measures remain in flux.  I tend to lean towards the notion that it is a measure of how much one can conform to a certain way of life.  Homo sapiens is a wild animal with varying adaptations.

When you talk religion, I often get the impression that you contrast it with atheism.  That is a false dichotomy in my opinion.

No speeches please, am not even half serious

Profuse apologies for annoying your sensibilities

There is nothing to apologize for.  We are all religious.  Some atheists like to equate their lack of belief in a deity with rationality.  But that is just one aspect.  We are all prone to bouts of irrationality.  Some folks are just more elaborate about it.

[vooke]

A fabrication.  While I have said religiosity statistically correlates with low IQ before, I think that is true only in the West.  In fact I thought that the converse might be true in places like Africa.  Never underestimate the impact that missionaries had on education in Africa.

Wewe Termie you are being another Peter, denying your core beliefs where it matters most. Reading your posts, it feels like you have figured the most objective measure of IQ as religion....anyways, it is well

I believe religion is part of us.  That is the card evolution has dealt us.  Excess CPU cycles.  We can do good or evil with it.  Just for the record, I don't know why people are religious.

My views on IQ or what it measures remain in flux.  I tend to lean towards the notion that it is a measure of how much one can conform to a certain way of life.  Homo sapiens is a wild animal with varying adaptations.

When you talk religion, I often get the impression that you contrast it with atheism.  That is a false dichotomy in my opinion.

No speeches please, am not even half serious

Profuse apologies for annoying your sensibilities

There is nothing to apologize for.  We are all religious.  Some atheists like to equate their lack of belief in a deity with rationality.  But that is just one aspect.  We are all prone to bouts of irrationality.  Some folks are just more elaborate about it.

What do you mean by 'religious'?

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

A fabrication.  While I have said religiosity statistically correlates with low IQ before, I think that is true only in the West.  In fact I thought that the converse might be true in places like Africa.  Never underestimate the impact that missionaries had on education in Africa.

Wewe Termie you are being another Peter, denying your core beliefs where it matters most. Reading your posts, it feels like you have figured the most objective measure of IQ as religion....anyways, it is well

I believe religion is part of us.  That is the card evolution has dealt us.  Excess CPU cycles.  We can do good or evil with it.  Just for the record, I don't know why people are religious.

My views on IQ or what it measures remain in flux.  I tend to lean towards the notion that it is a measure of how much one can conform to a certain way of life.  Homo sapiens is a wild animal with varying adaptations.

When you talk religion, I often get the impression that you contrast it with atheism.  That is a false dichotomy in my opinion.

No speeches please, am not even half serious

Profuse apologies for annoying your sensibilities

There is nothing to apologize for.  We are all religious.  Some atheists like to equate their lack of belief in a deity with rationality.  But that is just one aspect.  We are all prone to bouts of irrationality.  Some folks are just more elaborate about it.

What do you mean by 'religious'?

Having firmly held beliefs no matter what.  Not all religious people believe in deities.

[Bella]

kadame and mya88,
The other day a buddy engaged in a debate over divorce and remarriage (don't ask for my views on either yet). Later he told me he was exasperated by the attitudes participants exhibited, some self-righteousness. I told him it is because they was hypothesizing. If they was actually going through it, they opinions would be mighty different. Job was a counsellor but when tragedy struck, he sank into depression....will get u the verse.

Indeed, indeed. This is why I personally think that God tells us never to judge. That is, we can say what is right/wrong objectively-speaking, but we should never presume to decide the personal guilt of a person. We humans are simply not perfectly objective beings wherever our "selves" are involved. Plus, suffering plain sucks! You can't hate anyone for trying not to suffer more.

On rape and abortion, some Naijas have been going over that especially over the rescued Chibook girls. Many was pregnant. Question was posed to both Muslims and Christians on how to handle the pregnancy. That's a real scenario not hypothesizing.

I cannot even imagine going through such a situation, Lord have mercy!

While rape is equally if not more emotive than abortion, I think the difference between a rape pregnancy and consensual sex unplanned/unwanted pregnancy are not quite dissimilar. BOTH are unwanted, unplanned. From a psychological perspective, is a rape pregnancy and parenting more devastating than a normal unplanned one, ama we just assume it scars the mother more?

I think the thinking is that the normal unplanned conception involves an element of assumed risk. You have sex as a sexually mature adult, you are consenting to the possibility of conceiving a baby, unless you are brain dead. With rape, it is totally imposed. Therefore, much more empathy is felt for that person. Some other people consider that bearing and raising the child of a rapist is mentally torturing to the woman. I can certainly see both these points as not just "good" points, but true. But since I also see a second victim here in addition to the mother, I do not adopt the same solution others might. For me, I think the mother should not abort but give the baby up for adoption, if she truly cant come to love him/her. However, I think a psycho-spiritual treatment of the mother, helping her to see her baby sympathetically as the rapists' second victim could help. Yaani, not to associate/identify the baby with the rapist (the object of hate) but with the victim's own self (the object of sympathy). Just my thoughts, though...

[vooke]

A fabrication.  While I have said religiosity statistically correlates with low IQ before, I think that is true only in the West.  In fact I thought that the converse might be true in places like Africa.  Never underestimate the impact that missionaries had on education in Africa.

Wewe Termie you are being another Peter, denying your core beliefs where it matters most. Reading your posts, it feels like you have figured the most objective measure of IQ as religion....anyways, it is well

I believe religion is part of us.  That is the card evolution has dealt us.  Excess CPU cycles.  We can do good or evil with it.  Just for the record, I don't know why people are religious.

My views on IQ or what it measures remain in flux.  I tend to lean towards the notion that it is a measure of how much one can conform to a certain way of life.  Homo sapiens is a wild animal with varying adaptations.

When you talk religion, I often get the impression that you contrast it with atheism.  That is a false dichotomy in my opinion.

No speeches please, am not even half serious

Profuse apologies for annoying your sensibilities

There is nothing to apologize for.  We are all religious.  Some atheists like to equate their lack of belief in a deity with rationality.  But that is just one aspect.  We are all prone to bouts of irrationality.  Some folks are just more elaborate about it.

What do you mean by 'religious'?

Having firmly held beliefs no matter what.  Not all religious people believe in deities.

The first part is highly vague. I don't believe  Osama died in 2011, am religious
The second bit is obvious. Jainism has no deities

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

A fabrication.  While I have said religiosity statistically correlates with low IQ before, I think that is true only in the West.  In fact I thought that the converse might be true in places like Africa.  Never underestimate the impact that missionaries had on education in Africa.

Wewe Termie you are being another Peter, denying your core beliefs where it matters most. Reading your posts, it feels like you have figured the most objective measure of IQ as religion....anyways, it is well

I believe religion is part of us.  That is the card evolution has dealt us.  Excess CPU cycles.  We can do good or evil with it.  Just for the record, I don't know why people are religious.

My views on IQ or what it measures remain in flux.  I tend to lean towards the notion that it is a measure of how much one can conform to a certain way of life.  Homo sapiens is a wild animal with varying adaptations.

When you talk religion, I often get the impression that you contrast it with atheism.  That is a false dichotomy in my opinion.

No speeches please, am not even half serious

Profuse apologies for annoying your sensibilities

There is nothing to apologize for.  We are all religious.  Some atheists like to equate their lack of belief in a deity with rationality.  But that is just one aspect.  We are all prone to bouts of irrationality.  Some folks are just more elaborate about it.

What do you mean by 'religious'?

Having firmly held beliefs no matter what.  Not all religious people believe in deities.

The first part is highly vague. I don't believe  Osama died in 2011, am religious

If you consider that religion does not have to be organized, you might find it easier to understand.  Jehovah Wanyonyi could quietly believe he is the father of a man who died 2,000 years ago.  That is religious.  When he openly proclaims it, creates elaborate rituals around the claim and recruits followers, that is organized religion.

[vooke]

A fabrication.  While I have said religiosity statistically correlates with low IQ before, I think that is true only in the West.  In fact I thought that the converse might be true in places like Africa.  Never underestimate the impact that missionaries had on education in Africa.

Wewe Termie you are being another Peter, denying your core beliefs where it matters most. Reading your posts, it feels like you have figured the most objective measure of IQ as religion....anyways, it is well

I believe religion is part of us.  That is the card evolution has dealt us.  Excess CPU cycles.  We can do good or evil with it.  Just for the record, I don't know why people are religious.

My views on IQ or what it measures remain in flux.  I tend to lean towards the notion that it is a measure of how much one can conform to a certain way of life.  Homo sapiens is a wild animal with varying adaptations.

When you talk religion, I often get the impression that you contrast it with atheism.  That is a false dichotomy in my opinion.

No speeches please, am not even half serious

Profuse apologies for annoying your sensibilities

There is nothing to apologize for.  We are all religious.  Some atheists like to equate their lack of belief in a deity with rationality.  But that is just one aspect.  We are all prone to bouts of irrationality.  Some folks are just more elaborate about it.

What do you mean by 'religious'?

Having firmly held beliefs no matter what.  Not all religious people believe in deities.

The first part is highly vague. I don't believe  Osama died in 2011, am religious

If you consider that religion does not have to be organized, you might find it easier to understand.  Jehovah Wanyonyi could quietly believe he is the father of a man who died 2,000 years ago.  That is religious.  When he openly proclaims it, creates elaborate rituals around the claim and recruits followers, that is organized religion.

It's so vague as saying 'water is life'

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

A fabrication.  While I have said religiosity statistically correlates with low IQ before, I think that is true only in the West.  In fact I thought that the converse might be true in places like Africa.  Never underestimate the impact that missionaries had on education in Africa.

Wewe Termie you are being another Peter, denying your core beliefs where it matters most. Reading your posts, it feels like you have figured the most objective measure of IQ as religion....anyways, it is well

I believe religion is part of us.  That is the card evolution has dealt us.  Excess CPU cycles.  We can do good or evil with it.  Just for the record, I don't know why people are religious.

My views on IQ or what it measures remain in flux.  I tend to lean towards the notion that it is a measure of how much one can conform to a certain way of life.  Homo sapiens is a wild animal with varying adaptations.

When you talk religion, I often get the impression that you contrast it with atheism.  That is a false dichotomy in my opinion.

No speeches please, am not even half serious

Profuse apologies for annoying your sensibilities

There is nothing to apologize for.  We are all religious.  Some atheists like to equate their lack of belief in a deity with rationality.  But that is just one aspect.  We are all prone to bouts of irrationality.  Some folks are just more elaborate about it.

What do you mean by 'religious'?

Having firmly held beliefs no matter what.  Not all religious people believe in deities.

The first part is highly vague. I don't believe  Osama died in 2011, am religious

If you consider that religion does not have to be organized, you might find it easier to understand.  Jehovah Wanyonyi could quietly believe he is the father of a man who died 2,000 years ago.  That is religious.  When he openly proclaims it, creates elaborate rituals around the claim and recruits followers, that is organized religion.

It's so vague as saying 'water is life'

And untrue, I believe.