Abortion and Adventism

[MOON Ki]

Wikipedia gives a definition that seems adequate for most "working" purposes:

A religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

Presumably, then, a "religious" person would be one who has one or more "collections" that he or she finds satisfying.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Wikipedia gives a definition that seems adequate for most "working" purposes:

A religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

I agree with the qualifier.  If you include a set of beliefs that rejects all others, it is safe to say all normal humans, including atheists relate to at least one or more of these collections of beliefs.

[MOON Ki]

I have a had time imagining people who are not religious.  The real difficulties with religion start when it gets organized.  Then people decide that theirs is the best one, that their deities are the best ones, that their teachings are the best ones, etc.    And, of course, those who don't buy into some organized religion must be pitied as hopelessly lost souls, and, if possible, have one forced on them.   For their own good.

Even when there is only one set of teachings, groups will form according to who has the best interpretations, and of those sub-groups will form ...  It is such interpretations that led to the "Christian church" to engage in a long history of crimes against humanity: "the Bible tells us that this is right and must be done" etc.  And in individual life, even today, there are many who revel in their expert knowledge of teachings and focus on them to the point of forgetting that ultimately one of the key points is that it about humanity and relations between humans.

What's more, these interpretations, even the best and rightest and ***est change over time.   

So in matters such as abortion, my view is that (beyond whatever law that is at hand) one's conscience should be as good  a guide as "what the church" says.  As far as Christianity goes, I will note that a key part in Christ's approach was a reaction against the likes of the Pharisees and their rigid and unhelpful interpretations of religious writings and teachings.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

I have a had time imagining people who are not religious.  The real difficulties with religion start when it gets organized.  Then people decide that theirs is the best one, that their deities are the best ones, that their teachings are the best ones, etc.    And, of course, those who don't buy into some organized religion must be pitied as hopelessly lost souls, and, if possible, have one forced on them.   For their own good.

Even when there is only one set of teachings, groups will form according to who has the best interpretations, and of those sub-groups will form ...  It is such interpretations that led to the "Christian church" to engage in a long history of crimes against humanity: "the Bible tells us that this is right and must be done" etc.  And in individual life, even today, there are many who revel in their expert knowledge of teachings and focus on them to the point of forgetting that ultimately one of the key points is that it about humanity and relations between humans.

What's more, these interpretations, even the best and rightest and ***est change over time.   

So in matters such as abortion, my view is that (beyond whatever law that is at hand) one's conscience should be as good  a guide as "what the church" says.  As far as Christianity goes, I will note that a key part in Christ's approach was a reaction against the likes of the Pharisees and their rigid and unhelpful interpretations of religious writings and teachings.

Adaptability to change is the danger with organized religion.  I grew up convinced a good chunk of the world was headed to hell.  Something I believe is no longer fashionable this late in the day, even among the more extreme forms of Christianity.  Muslims of course believe people like vooke and his adherents are assured of warmth when they die; vooke feels his Bible protects him from the said warm place if Nuff Sed's interpretation guarantees her freedom from worrying about winter shopping for eternity. 

It's about people ultimately rather than what pleases or displeases Jehovah Wanyonyi or any other god. 

[vooke]

Ninian Smart does a smart job of detailing characteristics of a religion. They all don't have to be there to make a religion and they may exist in different intensities
A quick summary
http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Suydam/Reln101/Sevendi.htm

The Seven Dimensions of Religion (Ninian Smart)

Ritual: Forms and orders of ceremonies (private and/or public) (often regarded as revealed)

Narrative and Mythic: stories (often regarded as revealed) that work on several levels. Sometimes narratives fit together into a fairly complete and systematic interpretation of the universe and human's place in it.

Experiential and emotional: dread, guilt, awe, mystery, devotion, liberation, ecstasy, inner peace, bliss (private)

Social and Institutional: belief system is shared and attitudes practiced by a group. Often rules for identifying community membership and participation (public)

Ethical and legal: Rules about human behavior (often regarded as revealed from supernatural realm)

Doctrinal and philosophical: systematic formulation of religious teachings in an intellectually coherent form

Material: ordinary objects or places that symbolize or manifest the sacred or supernatural

[MOON Ki]

  I grew up convinced a good chunk of the world was headed to hell. 

So did I, except that I probably had it much worse: As a kid, I was totally terrified and in my sleep used to have nightmares of said place.   Thanks to some Sunday-School types who were very good with mental images, at that tender age I had a very clear idea of how hot the endless flames would be, how I would eat  but never get filled because the food would fall out of holes in my sides, wild animals forever gnawing on your limbs, etc.   Not to mention the Old Testament stories of how God had struck down this one or that one, with a very unpleasant disease or led them to a brutal and nasty end at the hands of bloodthirsty enemies.  I quickly got the general idea and also learned to treasure my volume of the "Children's Bible Stories" as a great guide (by way of warnings) on how to be a good, little boy.   

[GeeMail]

  I grew up convinced a good chunk of the world was headed to hell. 

So did I, except that I probably had it much worse: As a kid, I was totally terrified and in my sleep used to have nightmares of said place.   Thanks to some Sunday-School types who were very good with mental images, at that tender age I had a very clear idea of how hot the endless flames would be, how I would eat  but never get filled because the food would fall out of holes in my sides, wild animals forever gnawing on your limbs, etc.   Not to mention the Old Testament stories of how God had struck down this one or that one, with a very unpleasant disease or led them to a brutal and nasty end at the hands of bloodthirsty enemies.  I quickly got the general idea and also learned to treasure my volume of the "Children's Bible Stories" as a great guide (by way of warnings) on how to be a good, little boy.   

Moonki you probably need counseling for real. Thank God the Bible gives ample evidence that these hellish inventions of man are untrue. The pictures you have of hell come directly from Rome's false and unscriptural teachings on purgatory, limbo and the state of the dead. You need to read Ellen G. White's "Great Controversy" to see where it all began. There are plenty other sources that detail the origin of the doctrines of purgatory, Marian worship, indulgences and why (they were designed to instill fear of God rather than love for Him, and thereby created a pretext for extorting money to build St Peter's Basilica in Rome by asking people to pay for dead relatives's sins and their own, even future sins).

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/286800/indulgence

Below is a quote from Prof Bamba's EWTN.

https://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/what.htm

A plenary indulgence means that by the merits of Jesus Christ, the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the saints, the full remission of the temporal punishment due to sacramentally forgiven sins is obtained. The person becomes as if just baptized and would fly immediately to heaven if he died in that instant.

https://carm.org/indulgences

http://www.haciendapub.com/randomnotes/martin-luther-sale-indulgences-and-reformation

[vooke]

  I grew up convinced a good chunk of the world was headed to hell. 

So did I, except that I probably had it much worse: As a kid, I was totally terrified and in my sleep used to have nightmares of said place.   Thanks to some Sunday-School types who were very good with mental images, at that tender age I had a very clear idea of how hot the endless flames would be, how I would eat  but never get filled because the food would fall out of holes in my sides, wild animals forever gnawing on your limbs, etc.   Not to mention the Old Testament stories of how God had struck down this one or that one, with a very unpleasant disease or led them to a brutal and nasty end at the hands of bloodthirsty enemies.  I quickly got the general idea and also learned to treasure my volume of the "Children's Bible Stories" as a great guide (by way of warnings) on how to be a good, little boy.   

Moonki you probably need counseling for real. Thank God the Bible gives ample evidence that these hellish inventions of man are untrue. The pictures you have of hell come directly from Rome's false and unscriptural teachings on purgatory, limbo and the state of the dead. You need to read Ellen G. White's "Great Controversy" to see where it all began. There are plenty other sources that detail the origin of the doctrines of purgatory, Marian worship, indulgences and why (they were designed to instill fear of God rather than love for Him, and thereby created a pretext for extorting money to build St Peter's Basilica in Rome by asking people to pay for dead relatives's sins and their own, even future sins).

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/286800/indulgence

Below is a quote from Prof Bamba's EWTN.

https://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/what.htm

A plenary indulgence means that by the merits of Jesus Christ, the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the saints, the full remission of the temporal punishment due to sacramentally forgiven sins is obtained. The person becomes as if just baptized and would fly immediately to heaven if he died in that instant.

https://carm.org/indulgences

http://www.haciendapub.com/randomnotes/martin-luther-sale-indulgences-and-reformation

Is that how you win converts? Is Great Controversy your historical authority?

[GeeMail]

The Great Controversy is the history of the controversy between Christ and Satan, with the world and its religions as a manifestation of Satan's wrath against God's people. I cited other historical sources (and Catholic sources just in case) knowing there is an anti-EG White crusader on board. Have you read it?

[Bella]

The Great Controversy is the history of the controversy between Christ and Satan, with the world and its religions as a manifestation of Satan's wrath against God's people. I cited other historical sources (and Catholic sources just in case) knowing there is an anti-EG White crusader on board. Have you read it?

The Great controversy was written in the 1800s, how exactly is that HISTORY?

[vooke]

The Great Controversy is the history of the controversy between Christ and Satan, with the world and its religions as a manifestation of Satan's wrath against God's people. I cited other historical sources (and Catholic sources just in case) knowing there is an anti-EG White crusader on board. Have you read it?

Yes I have,
It has been revised innumerable times to make up for its errors and it is still full of them. HISTORICAL inaccuracies that can only have been conjured by an illiterate and ignorant mad woman. Can I show you one?

[GeeMail]

The Great Controversy is the history of the controversy between Christ and Satan, with the world and its religions as a manifestation of Satan's wrath against God's people. I cited other historical sources (and Catholic sources just in case) knowing there is an anti-EG White crusader on board. Have you read it?

Yes I have,
It has been revised innumerable times to make up for its errors and it is still full of them. HISTORICAL inaccuracies that can only have been conjured by an illiterate and ignorant mad woman. Can I show you one?

Go ahead.

[vooke]

The Great Controversy is the history of the controversy between Christ and Satan, with the world and its religions as a manifestation of Satan's wrath against God's people. I cited other historical sources (and Catholic sources just in case) knowing there is an anti-EG White crusader on board. Have you read it?

Yes I have,
It has been revised innumerable times to make up for its errors and it is still full of them. HISTORICAL inaccuracies that can only have been conjured by an illiterate and ignorant mad woman. Can I show you one?

Go ahead.

Through ages of darkness and apostasy there were Waldenses who denied the supremacy of Rome, who rejected image worship as idolatry, and who kept the true Sabbath.

- page 65

The Waldenses NEVER kept sabbath. Samuelle Bachiocchi could find NO evidence of their sabbath keeping despite more resources at his disposal. Let's aks him;

To my regret I found no allusion whatsoever to Sabbath-keeping among the Waldenses.

https://www.biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/eti_87.html

[GeeMail]

That's one author's opinion against Ellen G. White. You're committing the same mistake as Bella by arguing that because Bacchiochi did not find evidence of Waldensians keeping the Sabbath it means they did not. Don't forget that bacchiochi's writers were Vaticaners who have traditionally opposed Sabbathkeeping to drive people to their pagan Sunday sabbath. One could also cite other sources showing the Waldensians kept the Sabbath. Like J.J. Ignatio von Dollinger or McGoldrick.

By enjoining what the Bible did not forbid, Rome ended up forbidding what the Bible enjoined. I'll cite you a legal example. Lack of evidence does not mean innocence.

The Great Controversy is the history of the controversy between Christ and Satan, with the world and its religions as a manifestation of Satan's wrath against God's people. I cited other historical sources (and Catholic sources just in case) knowing there is an anti-EG White crusader on board. Have you read it?

Yes I have,
It has been revised innumerable times to make up for its errors and it is still full of them. HISTORICAL inaccuracies that can only have been conjured by an illiterate and ignorant mad woman. Can I show you one?

Go ahead.

Through ages of darkness and apostasy there were Waldenses who denied the supremacy of Rome, who rejected image worship as idolatry, and who kept the true Sabbath.

- page 65

The Waldenses NEVER kept sabbath. Samuelle Bachiocchi could find NO evidence of their sabbath keeping despite more resources at his disposal. Let's aks him;

To my regret I found no allusion whatsoever to Sabbath-keeping among the Waldenses.

https://www.biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/eti_87.html

[vooke]

That's one author's opinion against Ellen G. White. You're committing the same mistake as Bella by arguing that because Bacchiochi did not find evidence of Waldensians keeping the Sabbath it means they did not. Don't forget that bacchiochi's writers were Vaticaners who have traditionally opposed Sabbathkeeping to drive people to their pagan Sunday sabbath. One could also cite other sources showing the Waldensians kept the Sabbath. Like J.J. Ignatio von Dollinger or McGoldrick.

By enjoining what the Bible did not forbid, Rome ended up forbidding what the Bible enjoined. I'll cite you a legal example. Lack of evidence does not mean innocence.

Yes,
When Bachiocchi points out obvious insanity from EGW, he is a Jesuit sleeper agent. Why don't you do me a favor and give me ANY EVIDENCE of Waldenses keeping sabbath.

[GeeMail]

That's one author's opinion against Ellen G. White. You're committing the same mistake as Bella by arguing that because Bacchiochi did not find evidence of Waldensians keeping the Sabbath it means they did not. Don't forget that bacchiochi's writers were Vaticaners who have traditionally opposed Sabbathkeeping to drive people to their pagan Sunday sabbath. One could also cite other sources showing the Waldensians kept the Sabbath. Like J.J. Ignatio von Dollinger or McGoldrick.

By enjoining what the Bible did not forbid, Rome ended up forbidding what the Bible enjoined. I'll cite you a legal example. Lack of evidence does not mean innocence.

Yes,
When Bachiocchi points out obvious insanity from EGW, he is a Jesuit sleeper agent. Why don't you do me a favor and give me ANY EVIDENCE of Waldenses keeping sabbath.

It's a famous trick you have employed with Bella and now with me. Making a spurious claim and asking us to back it up. You made the claim and cited Bacchiochi only to realize that particular scholarship on the Sabbath is questionable. Now you want me to give you evidence supporting your claim?

[vooke]

That's one author's opinion against Ellen G. White. You're committing the same mistake as Bella by arguing that because Bacchiochi did not find evidence of Waldensians keeping the Sabbath it means they did not. Don't forget that bacchiochi's writers were Vaticaners who have traditionally opposed Sabbathkeeping to drive people to their pagan Sunday sabbath. One could also cite other sources showing the Waldensians kept the Sabbath. Like J.J. Ignatio von Dollinger or McGoldrick.

By enjoining what the Bible did not forbid, Rome ended up forbidding what the Bible enjoined. I'll cite you a legal example. Lack of evidence does not mean innocence.

Yes,
When Bachiocchi points out obvious insanity from EGW, he is a Jesuit sleeper agent. Why don't you do me a favor and give me ANY EVIDENCE of Waldenses keeping sabbath.

It's a famous trick you have employed with Bella and now with me. Making a spurious claim and asking us to back it up. You made the claim and cited Bacchiochi only to realize that particular scholarship on the Sabbath is questionable. Now you want me to give you evidence supporting your claim?

The only trick here is mindlessly regurgitating Ellen White. Waldenses history is well known, they never kept sabbath. Because you have disowned your own author, then give us proof that he is wrong. I can't prove a negative. Prove they kept sabbath

[GeeMail]

Unnecessary distraction. You quote Great Controversy where Ellen G. White writes the Waldenses kept the Sabbath, build a strawman from Bacchiochi that they didn't and now you ask me to help you demolish the first statement with proof that the Waldenses did not keep the Sabbath. I have often helped you but on this one I politely decline.

[vooke]

Unnecessary distraction. You quote Great Controversy where Ellen G. White writes the Waldenses kept the Sabbath, build a strawman from Bacchiochi that they didn't and now you ask me to help you demolish the first statement with proof that the Waldenses did not keep the Sabbath. I have often helped you but on this one I politely decline.

Nobody has ever claimed they did apart from EGW. If there is, share with me the evidence to support EGW. To the contrary, there is ample evidence they didn't. These were not aliens, their beliefs were and are well known just as their history.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

  I grew up convinced a good chunk of the world was headed to hell. 

So did I, except that I probably had it much worse: As a kid, I was totally terrified and in my sleep used to have nightmares of said place.   Thanks to some Sunday-School types who were very good with mental images, at that tender age I had a very clear idea of how hot the endless flames would be, how I would eat  but never get filled because the food would fall out of holes in my sides, wild animals forever gnawing on your limbs, etc.   Not to mention the Old Testament stories of how God had struck down this one or that one, with a very unpleasant disease or led them to a brutal and nasty end at the hands of bloodthirsty enemies.  I quickly got the general idea and also learned to treasure my volume of the "Children's Bible Stories" as a great guide (by way of warnings) on how to be a good, little boy.   

Hell at that impressionable age was always a clear and present danger.  My visions of hell were crystallized by the experience of the kids in the Fatima events.  When they were shown a vision of hell by Mary.

At Fatima, the Blessed Virgin Mary told the three child seers that many souls go to hell because they have no one to pray or make sacrifices for them. In her Memoirs, Sister Lucy describes the vision of hell that Our Lady showed the children at Fatima:

"She opened Her hands once more, as She had done the two previous months. The rays [of light] appeared to penetrate the earth, and we saw, as it were, a vast sea of fire. Plunged in this fire, we saw the demons and the souls [of the damned]. The latter were like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, having human forms. They were floating about in that conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames which issued from within themselves, together with great clouds of smoke. Now they fell back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fright (it must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me). The demons were distinguished [from the souls of the damned] by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. That vision only lasted for a moment, thanks to our good Heavenly Mother, Who at the first apparition had promised to take us to Heaven. Without that, I think that we would have died of terror and fear."

http://www.fatima.org/essentials/facts/hell.asp

It was basically a place where you burn but you can't escape from it either by dying or otherwise.  The truly troubling part was when it became obvious there is no avoiding it.  At least for some time.  Purgatory was identical to hell but not eternal. 

Mary tells the kids about Amelia, a recently deceased friend.  It was emphasized to us, that Amelia was a fairly holy person.  Given that I was nowhere near as holy, it put a serious damper on my hopes of ending up in heaven.  Ever.  The demands were too much for a normal primate.

One of the things seldom talked about in the Message took place during her first visit with the children in May of 1917. It concerns Purgatory. On that occasion Lucy began to question the beautiful Lady to find out who she was. Happy when the Lady said she had come from Heaven, Lucy immediately asked about her own eternal happiness and Our Lady lovingly told her that she would go to Heaven, After being assured that her two companions, Jacinta and Francis, would go to Heaven as well, Lucy further asked about two of her little companions who had recently died: "Is little Maria das Neves in Heaven," "Yes" answered Our Lady, "she is in Heaven." Finally, Lucy asked about another companion, called Amelia, and Our Lady answered: "She will be in Purgatory until the end of the world."

Little Amelia was eighteen years old when she died. She is in Purgatory and will, on the testimony of Our Blessed Mother, stay there until the end of time. Her fate contains a warning for all of us. Let us take to heart and make certain that her fate will not be our own.

http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/purgatory2.htm