Author Topic: Africa still largely the dark continent when it come to power  (Read 25719 times)

Offline Omollo

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Re: Africa still largely the dark continent when it come to power
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2015, 02:22:05 PM »
This should help

[pdf]http://politics.as.nyu.edu/docs/IO/2800/sisson.pdf[/pdf]
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa still largely the dark continent when it come to power
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2015, 05:00:34 PM »
Pay attention to the money the US was pouring in to Korea around the same time. Count everything from Military aid, to US money used in Korea on American soldiers stationed there. Include infrastructure and other facilities constructed by the US in Korea for US troops and part of the US defense. A number of Nuclear Plants (initially top secret) were constructed under these arrangements.

Omollo:   I used to live in Seoul, and I am just learning some things here.  I highly doubt that US military aid contributed much to Korea's economic growth; but I am open to learning.  Are you able to direct me to some relevant data?

I am clearer on the infrastructure question, because I have actually travelled around Korea and taken a look at some of these bases.   Exactly what worthwhile infrastructure are you talking about?  Consider, for example, that the most built-up area is the Seoul area and that accounts for about half of Korea's population.   The US 8th Army in fact has its headquarters there.   Now, what infrastructure  did the US build there?   We can then work around the country and consider the same question.

I have to admit that I have never looked deeply into the matter of power generation in Korea, so this one of secret nuclear power plants is new to me.   Where are they located?   (I'm trying to imagine where in Korea someone could hide a secret nuclear power plant.)   As far as I know Korea has one old plant from the 1970s and a whole bunch more from the 1980s on, but there has never been anything secret about those.   

(SK did start a nuclear weapons program in the 1970s, but it was hardly a secret, and far from being an arrangement with the USA, the USA quickly pressured it to drop the program.)
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Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Africa still largely the dark continent when it come to power
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2015, 05:17:23 PM »
Interesting..so population rise more under dictatorship than in  a democrcay?
This should help

[pdf]http://politics.as.nyu.edu/docs/IO/2800/sisson.pdf[/pdf]

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Africa still largely the dark continent when it come to power
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2015, 05:20:00 PM »
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I am not sure about the level of AID received in Kenya versus those South Korea got..but i know until mid 90s..kenya use to receive a lot of AID...more than 50% of the budget was AID. Rwanda, Uganda, TZ and Ethiopia are still stuck there..but kenya has moved on...AID should be 2% budgetted..and 15% appropriated.

The only difference btw asian tigers that grew so fast..and us...is population increase and therefore per capita incomes.

Pay attention to the money the US was pouring in to Korea around the same time. Count everything from Military aid, to US money used in Korea on American soldiers stationed there. Include infrastructure and other facilities constructed by the US in Korea for US troops and part of the US defense. A number of Nuclear Plants (initially top secret) were constructed under these arrangements.

Kenya did not get 1% of what the US expended in and on Korea.

One can compare Korea, Kenya and the Philippines. Population wise, Kenya and the Philippines can be weighed together. However American investment and in-country expenditure is not comparable.

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa still largely the dark continent when it come to power
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2015, 05:48:41 PM »
The only difference btw asian tigers that grew so fast..and us...is population increase and therefore per capita incomes.

Not really.   Take a look at raw GDP growth, instead of per capita,  and compare the factors.   

Kenya:  1965 - about $1 billion, 2015 - about $50 billion

S. Korea: 1965 - about $3 billion, 2015 - about $1.2 trillion
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Offline Omollo

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Re: Africa still largely the dark continent when it come to power
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2015, 05:53:30 PM »
I would not call what the US spent in Korea as Aid. One had over 40K soldiers and a huge amount spent on them and their facilities inside Korea. Then one needed for example enough electricity and went ahead to put up the same. Certain roads were needed by the US army and up they went.

The US military started working with certain contractors to develop various technologies that could not defensively be done back home. You get the drift.

But there was Park. He knew the Americans needed South Korea and could not abandon it. So he would whip up the "Communist" threat and present the bill. He demanded certain  technology arguing (falsely) that the Soviets had handed them to the North and got it.

The difference is that the US set the agenda on what Kenya would receive in "aid": However Park Chung Hee set the agenda on what the US would grant Korea.
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I am not sure about the level of AID received in Kenya versus those South Korea got..but i know until mid 90s..kenya use to receive a lot of AID...more than 50% of the budget was AID. Rwanda, Uganda, TZ and Ethiopia are still stuck there..but kenya has moved on...AID should be 2% budgetted..and 15% appropriated.

The only difference btw asian tigers that grew so fast..and us...is population increase and therefore per capita incomes.

Pay attention to the money the US was pouring in to Korea around the same time. Count everything from Military aid, to US money used in Korea on American soldiers stationed there. Include infrastructure and other facilities constructed by the US in Korea for US troops and part of the US defense. A number of Nuclear Plants (initially top secret) were constructed under these arrangements.

Kenya did not get 1% of what the US expended in and on Korea.

One can compare Korea, Kenya and the Philippines. Population wise, Kenya and the Philippines can be weighed together. However American investment and in-country expenditure is not comparable.
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa still largely the dark continent when it come to power
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2015, 06:09:01 PM »
Then one needed for example enough electricity and went ahead to put up the same. Certain roads were needed by the US army and up they went.

Which power plants were those?  Which roads?   
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Offline Omollo

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Re: Africa still largely the dark continent when it come to power
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2015, 06:34:58 PM »
I'd have to check. Korea has over 30 Nuclear Reactors (some secret).
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I am not sure about the level of AID received in Kenya versus those South Korea got..but i know until mid 90s..kenya use to receive a lot of AID...more than 50% of the budget was AID. Rwanda, Uganda, TZ and Ethiopia are still stuck there..but kenya has moved on...AID should be 2% budgetted..and 15% appropriated.

The only difference btw asian tigers that grew so fast..and us...is population increase and therefore per capita incomes.

Pay attention to the money the US was pouring in to Korea around the same time. Count everything from Military aid, to US money used in Korea on American soldiers stationed there. Include infrastructure and other facilities constructed by the US in Korea for US troops and part of the US defense. A number of Nuclear Plants (initially top secret) were constructed under these arrangements.

Kenya did not get 1% of what the US expended in and on Korea.

One can compare Korea, Kenya and the Philippines. Population wise, Kenya and the Philippines can be weighed together. However American investment and in-country expenditure is not comparable.
Then one needed for example enough electricity and went ahead to put up the same. Certain roads were needed by the US army and up they went.

Which power plants were those?  Which roads?   
Then one needed for example enough electricity and went ahead to put up the same. Certain roads were needed by the US army and up they went.

Which power plants were those?  Which roads?   
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa still largely the dark continent when it come to power
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2015, 06:52:24 PM »
I'd have to check. Korea has over 30 Nuclear Reactors (some secret).

Over 30?   Wow.  If you are talking about real power plants (and not including well-known tinker-toy facilities in research labs), then that will probably come as news to them.    Anyway, check and let me know what you come up with.   Of course, you could always say that they are top secret.    :D   Like I said,  I have a hard time imagining where in SK one could hide such things.   

Generally, I'm intrigued with the implication that the US military built electrical power plants and roads that did the general Korean populace some good.   That is why I asked a very specific question: "which power plants, which roads"?  Feel free to add any other infrastructure that you have in mind.

You might want to consider the locations of US military bases in SK, their sizes,  and their  history.
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Offline Omollo

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Re: Africa still largely the dark continent when it come to power
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2015, 07:02:43 PM »
Actually I do not need to shock the South Koreans. They have publicly admitted to having 23 Plants. The official policy was that they would by 2013 have 31 reactors operational. Contracts were issued for that much. This was scaled down following a counterfeit parts scandal where certain companies had falsified certificates and provided inferior parts for installation. A number of reactors that were affected had to go offline as repairs were carried.

I know that Korea then, reacting to a very strong anti-nuclear movement scaled down the plans. The Nuclear accident in Japan also affected not just South Korea but many other countries in the region with plans for Nuclear energy. I do not have the exact number of the contracts that were actually carried out

Now I know what is bothering you is the idea that the US may have had a role in the rapid development of South Korea. This sadly is the case. As I have said, the same conditions existed in the Philippines under Marcos but the country did not benefit from it. Social Economic Historians largely attribute the exception to Park Chung Hee. I would say he established a strong foundation.

Korea was also timely in instituting democracy. This locked in the gains made under the Enlightened Dictatorship.

On secret Nuclear plants: If indeed you have been to South Korea then you know that the country peaceful as it looks is in a constant state of war preparedness. I cannot say I have seen the secret reactors but it is what one would call "common knowledge" or a badly kept secret. Seoul is within minutes of a suicidal North Korean match. But for argument's sake you can say there are no such reactors dedicated for US defense purposes in Korea.



I'd have to check. Korea has over 30 Nuclear Reactors (some secret).

Over 30?   Wow.  That will probably come as news to them.    Anyway, check and let me know what you come up with.   Of course, you could always say that they are top secret.    :D   Like I said,  I have a hard time imagining where in SK one could hide such things.   

Generally, I'm intrigued with the implication that the US military built electrical power plants and roads that did the general Korean populace some good.   That is why I asked "which power plants, which roads"?  Feel free to add any other infrastructure that you have in mind.

You might want to consider the location of US military bases in SK, their sizes,  and their  history.
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Africa still largely the dark continent when it come to power
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2015, 07:05:22 PM »
They grew consistently at nearly 10% for 50yrs...we grow at 7% and then down to 3% then lately 4%...if you add the power of compounding you'll be able understand the difference in total GDP.

My point is initially when we were growing at around 6-7% till 1990s..they were growing at 10%...which is not so much difference..however if you look at the per capita difference then..it staggering.

Not really.   Take a look at raw GDP growth, instead of per capita,  and compare the factors.   

Kenya:  1965 - about $1 billion, 2015 - about $50 billion

S. Korea: 1965 - about $3 billion, 2015 - about $1.2 trillion

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa still largely the dark continent when it come to power
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2015, 07:48:10 PM »
Now I know what is bothering you is the idea that the US may have had a role in the rapid development of South Korea. This sadly is the case.

No, no, no.   That's not what's bothering me.     What generally bothers me is when people insist on assertions without the backing facts.   For example, you claimed electricity, roads, and other infrastructure.   I asked which ones and where, and I did not get an answer.   I'd be more interested in concrete arguments, in light of what we actually know of SK's economic history.     

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On secret Nuclear plants: If indeed you have been to South Korea then you know that the country peaceful as it looks is in a constant state of war preparedness. I cannot say I have seen the secret reactors but it is what one would call "common knowledge" or a badly kept secret. Seoul is within minutes of a suicidal North Korean match. But for argument's sake you can say there are no such reactors dedicated for US defense purposes in Korea.

Common knowledge where and to whom?   Are you able to provide anything to support that claim?    And, as I asked, where could they possibly be hidden?   What does the "common knowledge" say on that one? (I asked that question for a very specific reason.)

Nor do I see what being "constant state of war preparedness" has to do with secret  nuclear plants.     Is the idea that the plants are producing nuclear weapons or material for them?   First, I don't think you are aware of South Koreans' attitudes to their country producing nuclear weapons, and it is a matter that is constantly discussed.  Second, and more importantly, SK already had US nuclear weapons on its territory but asked that they be withdrawn (over 20 years ago).   Third, if SK thought it would ever require the use of nuclear weapons, it would  simply ask the USA to bring them back, and in recent years there has been some talk in that direction.

SK has absolutely no reason to develop nuclear weapons on its own.   The reason for that is that, by mutual agreement, even today the SK military remains under US command.   If SK has to go to war, the decisions, including what is required, will come from Washington.   

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Offline Omollo

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Re: Africa still largely the dark continent when it come to power
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2015, 08:03:22 PM »
It is not so hard. You'll get a response in a few days.

For the record, I have exclusively addressed myself to Nuclear Electric Power and have not even remotely imagined nuclear weapons.

Now I know what is bothering you is the idea that the US may have had a role in the rapid development of South Korea. This sadly is the case.

No, no, no.   That's not what's bothering me.     What generally bothers me is when people insist on assertions without the backing facts.   For example, you claimed electricity, roads, and other infrastructure.   I asked which ones and where, and I did not get an answer.   I'd be more interested in concrete arguments, in light of what we actually know of SK's economic history.     

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On secret Nuclear plants: If indeed you have been to South Korea then you know that the country peaceful as it looks is in a constant state of war preparedness. I cannot say I have seen the secret reactors but it is what one would call "common knowledge" or a badly kept secret. Seoul is within minutes of a suicidal North Korean match. But for argument's sake you can say there are no such reactors dedicated for US defense purposes in Korea.

Common knowledge where and to whom?   Are you able to provide anything to support that claim?    And, as I asked, where could they possibly be hidden?   What does the "common knowledge" say on that one? (I asked that question for a very specific reason.)

Nor do I see what being "constant state of war preparedness" has to do with secret  nuclear plants.     Is the idea that the plants are producing nuclear weapons or material for them?   First, I don't think you are aware of South Koreans' attitudes to their country producing nuclear weapons, and it is a matter that is constantly discussed.  Second, and more importantly, SK already had US nuclear weapons on its territory but asked that they be withdrawn (over 20 years ago).   Third, if SK thought it would ever require the use of nuclear weapons, it would  simply ask the USA to bring them back, and in recent years there has been some talk in that direction.

SK has absolutely no reason to develop nuclear weapons on its own.   The reason for that is that, by mutual agreement, even today the SK military remains under US command.   If SK has to go to war, the decisions, including what is required, will come from Washington.   


... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa still largely the dark continent when it come to power
« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2015, 08:20:21 PM »
It is not so hard. You'll get a response in a few days.

For the record, I have exclusively addressed myself to Nuclear Electric Power and have not even remotely imagined nuclear weapons.

Sorry, I was trying to make a connection between "the country peaceful as it looks is in a constant state of war preparedness" and "But for argument's sake you can say there are no such reactors dedicated for US defense purposes in Korea".   So, I take it that there are secret "Nuclear Electric Power" plants  that are for US defense purposes?  Intriguing.   

Anyway, I'm keen to see what you come up with "in a few days".   I have a pretty good idea of where the US bases are, their sizes, and their history.   Why they would need secret nuclear power plants is not clear.   I also await your theories on where these secret plants could possibly be located and how they have benefited Koreans. 
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Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa still largely the dark continent when it come to power
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2015, 08:27:47 PM »
Korea was also timely in instituting democracy.

Point.  One of the most amazing things in Kenya is that the country decided that there needed to be limits on presidential terms but then also decided that the counting would not include any of Moi's previous 14 (or whatever) years!   

I like the way the Koreans went: one term, 5 years, no exceptions.  And no funny business about "the counting starts now".  I sometimes wonder what 2007-2008 would have been like had Kibaki not been at it again ...
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Offline Omollo

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Re: Africa still largely the dark continent when it come to power
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2015, 08:51:15 PM »
Moon Ki

I don't know how to formulate it. A hint may help: The entire Korean War was a UN mission. There was / is a civilian arm to the mission.

On my remarks below (quoted): Electric power is not necessarily for pure peaceful purposes as you already know. SK has almost no other sources of electricity other than the huge dependency on Nuclear power. So it follows that a large army in the country would need a steady supply of power. Remember we are talking about a country that was at the front line of the not so cold war bordering two Communist countries that had persecuted the Korean war - China and USSR. Until today, South Korean forces would fall under United States command should the war - which has technically never ended -  resume.

Between 1953 - 1980s, SK was a net recipient of military and economic aid from the US. It goes without saying that most of this went towards the construction and modernization of infrastructure. SK's highway network is a replica of the US highway system - largely put up with American cash.

On secret plants, we can just drop it because I simply passed on information that came my way by virtue of my short stint in the region. It won't be secret if it could be backed by public documentation. But you can apply some imagination. The enemy (NK) is a grenade throw away and one can only imagine any attack would target power plants in the first wave of attack. At least the security preparedness I was privy to made that assumption.

Am off. Baadaye

It is not so hard. You'll get a response in a few days.

For the record, I have exclusively addressed myself to Nuclear Electric Power and have not even remotely imagined nuclear weapons.

Sorry, I was trying to make a connection between "the country peaceful as it looks is in a constant state of war preparedness" and "But for argument's sake you can say there are no such reactors dedicated for US defense purposes in Korea".   So, I take it that there are secret "Nuclear Electric Power" plants  that are for US defense purposes?  Intriguing.   

Anyway, I'm keen to see what you come up with "in a few days".   I have a pretty good idea of where the US bases are, their sizes, and their history.   Why they would need secret nuclear power plants is not clear.   I also await your theories of where these secret plants could possibly be located.


... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline Omollo

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Re: Africa still largely the dark continent when it come to power
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2015, 08:56:28 PM »
It is the High court that came up with that. The so called non-retroactive powers of the law. Kibaki could have easily exploited the same to stay even though the new constitution attempted to seal the loophole.

That said, there are clear economic benefits from enlightened dictatorship. However to preserve the same and build upon it, one needs to democratize as soon as possible. Otherwise the same studies have shown a clear decline in event of a prolonged dictatorship.

The countries studied are Taiwan, South Korea, Chile, Argentina...
Korea was also timely in instituting democracy.

Point.  One of the most amazing things in Kenya is that the country decided that there needed to be limits on presidential terms but then also decided that the counting would not include any of Moi's previous 14 (or whatever) years!   

I like the way the Koreans went: one term, 5 years, no exceptions.  And no funny business about "the counting starts now".  I sometimes wonder what 2007-2008 would have been like had Kibaki not been at it again ...
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa still largely the dark continent when it come to power
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2015, 09:29:05 PM »
On my remarks below (quoted): Electric power is not necessarily for pure peaceful purposes as you already know. SK has almost no other sources of electricity other than the huge dependency on Nuclear power. So it follows that a large army in the country would need a steady supply of power.

(1) Your basic claim was that the USA had built power plants (secret!), roads, and other infrastructure that had somehow helped propel the Korean economy.    I asked "which ones and where".   I have yet to get a good answer.

(2) By the time Korea really got into nuclear power, most of the US military was long gone.   

(3) Forget the "it follows".   Have you actually looked at the concrete facts in relation to when the USA military presence was at its highest in Korea?   

(4) "SK has almost no other sources of electricity other than the huge dependency on Nuclear power"   

- (i) Last I checked it did have other big sources?    What is your data?

- (ii) What does that have to do with secret power plants (whether or not built by the Americans)?    Just about everything about the nuclear electric-power plants that do the job is public knowledge 

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Between 1953 - 1980s, SK was a net recipient of military and economic aid from the US. It goes without saying that most of this went towards the construction and modernization of infrastructure. SK's highway network is a replica of the US highway system - largely put up with American cash.

Interesting.    First, it was about the US military building roads and power plants and infrastructure, and now it's just "American cash" ... But we need not quibble over that.  Let's deal with concrete facts:

I have a pretty good idea of the major road networks in SK.    Which parts  do you have in mind?   Once you identify particular highways, we can look at the facts of who did what and with whose money.   Let's start with Seoul.   Then we can move to the other major cities and the interconnections between.

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On secret plants, we can just drop it because I simply passed on information that came my way by virtue of my short stint in the region. It won't be secret if it could be backed by public documentation. But you can apply some imagination. The enemy (NK) is a grenade throw away and one can only imagine any attack would target power plants in the first wave of attack. At least the security preparedness I was privy to made that assumption.

I wasn't asking for "public documentation".    I was merely looking for something beyond "Omollo stated it on Nipate; so there!".   I was asking for some very basic information:

(a) Why on earth would the US military need secret nuclear power plants in SK?

(b) What exactly have these secret plants contributed to the Korean economy?

(c) Where on earth could these secret plants be located?   Whether it's from your source or from "imagination", can you suggest a few places?   (Resist the temptation to say "or near the base".)
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Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Africa still largely the dark continent when it come to power
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2015, 09:42:19 PM »
That said, there are clear economic benefits from enlightened dictatorship. However to preserve the same and build upon it, one needs to democratize as soon as possible. Otherwise the same studies have shown a clear decline in event of a prolonged dictatorship.

Here, you raise (implicitly) a very interesting question: can "enlightened dictatorship" work in a place like Kenya today? I doubt it.   People have more varied access to information, and more aware of the rest of the world, and so on.  I think those days are largely gone for countries like Kenya.   Johnstone Kamau could have done it, but he chose to blow it.

How about other places?   Singapore: Lee Kwan Yew is a very blunt and tough fellow, but even he admitted that his iron-fist approach had its limitations.   South Korea: General Park is largely forgiven, but nobody is keen for a repeat.

MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
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Offline gout

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Re: Africa still largely the dark continent when it come to power
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2015, 12:05:55 PM »
can we really compare Kenya to South Korea?
they had first university in 1885; second in 1905 .....
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History

    1895: The former institute of Seoul National University College of Law was established.
    1905: Bosung College established
    1924: Headquarters and a preparatory departments of Keij? Imperial University was founded by Japan. This university is the main predecessor to Seoul National University.
    1926: Three Departments (Law, Medical Sciences, and Human Sciences) of Keij? Imperial University were opened by Japan. These were the first modern university classes in Korea. This university was the only university in Korea at the time due to oppression by Japan. The Japanese government did not approve the establishment of any university except Keij? Imperial University.
    1946 August: Seoul National University founded by merging several Japanese institutions - including Keij? Imperial University - of higher education around Seoul
    1946 August : Bosung College renamed Korea University
    1946 August: Yonhi College renamed Yonhi University
    1957 January: Severance Medical College and Hospital and Yonhi University merged into Yonsei University
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKY_%28universities%29

in Asia the country which we may compare to could be Indonesia but still ethnic composition and its implications on politics, societal progress and economy

interesting info on ethnicity and race across countrywise
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0855617.html
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one ~ Thomas Paine