The Lord's Day

[Ka-Bella]

Ka-Bella, allow me to fragment my response.

Daily Bread, this is what God commanded Moses about the Sabbath before giving him the tablets you cited as a special thing (setting them apart from other laws not on the tablet). The Lord himself explains here that the Sabbath is a mark of the COVENANT between himself and Israelites! It is just like circumcision, a sign setting them apart and remind them of their special consecration to God. So I will ask you again, are Christians part of the Mosaic covenant? Why should we hold up a mark of God's covenant with Israelites in the Sabbath while discarding it in the circumcision?

Yes, the Sabbath day (fourth commandment) was a sign setting Israel apart. But it was not the only one. Even the ceremonial laws that were done away with separated Israel from the other communities. However, the ten commandments not only differentiated Israel but also defined their relationship with God but also with the promised messiah depicted in ceremonial laws and feasts.
Christians are part of God's covenant, not Mosaic covenant. Paul says we have been "grafted in".
Rom 11:
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches...
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Notice that Jews who were practicing circumcision like Paul were also accepted into the new covenant. The problem was not Jews being circumcised but their demand on Gentiles to be circumcised too. So off-handed condemnation of circumcision for Jews (or keeping ceremonial sabbaths feasts) does not help the Sunday law cause.

To which covenant have we been grafted in? The covenant God made with Abraham or the one he made with Moses (on behalf of the Jews)?

[Ka-Bella]

Daily Bread, you seem to think that the reason we don't kill, steal etc is because they were part of the Decalogue that God wrote for Moses and the Jews. To the contrary: God made those laws part of the covenant because they were already part of the universal moral law, written into our very nature when Adam was fashioned by God. That's why Cain knew that he had sinned without a tablet of stone informing him as much, unlike Adam and Eve who violated an explicit positive command. We know God hated envy and covetousness from those two brothers. Similarly, God had no qualms raining fire on Sodom and Gomorrah for sexual immorality despite having "failed" to first give them a clear command not to do as much, and we know from the personal stories of Abraham and his sons that God did not look too kindly on people taking other people's wives or on theft...etc etc etc.

Bottom line, the Decalogue looks the way it looks because these "rules" are part of human nature/design, the law was inscribed when we were created, and it boils down to an innate and basic sense of justice and fairness which is necessary for co-existence or as Christ put it, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. The Sabbath is only part of this basic universal human law in as much as it reflects our impulse to give to God what is God's which means a part of everything that we have and follows on our "religious" nature that separates us from animals. But there's no such rule about ANY specific day. Not even Sunday or Saturday. These are simply specific ways of manifesting this natural human impulse to recognize our creator as the one to whom we owe all, including our very lives which unfolds as TIME, that we should offer back to God. The New Testament makes even more clear what this natural law requires from us, to love all, give to those in need etc, even more than the laws of old. So you are wrong, its not just that something "is in the ten commandments", it is whether a certain law is part of this universal law and for a Christian that is easy, just read the epistles and the four Gospels.

A true believer cannot moralize the Ten Commandments away. God is to be believed and to be obeyed. Every civilization with any connection to Israel even by colonialization traces its morals, norms, rules and regulations to the Ten Commandments. Laws just don't descend from nature, because to argue so would be justifying things like corruption in Kenya because it is completely natural to be corrupt in the country. Again, if you are Catholic, you only follow in the tradition of the church to take "apostolic practice" of Kenyans and become corrupt. Protestantism rightly rebelled against this Catholic principle of appropriating anything in the name of tradition and apostolic practice (of course, without scriptural backing).

Mine like the Catholic Mirror (subconsciously perhaps) is a call to return to true Protestantism or to join the mother church. Hii tabia ya nusu mkate will not do.

This is what we call a straw man, Daily Bread. Who has "moralized away" the ten commandments? I simply explained to you what they mean to a Christian. If the only reason you don't kill is that it was written by God for the Jews on a piece of stone, then that is truly sad, because you are no Jew but an African gentile.

Thank goodness that we respect all those laws not because they were part of a foreign covenant but because they are part of God's rules for US, as humans, right from Adam. Yet of all the covenants that God made, including the one that Jews recognize as binding on gentiles (the Noahide covenant and laws) only the one he made with Jews includes a command to set apart one out of seven days and then one specific day.

[GeeMail]

Colossians 2:16 is not extrabiblical for the simple fact that it is in the Bible. How it supports Sunday worship beats me because it refers to ceremonial sabbaths that were part of the law of Moses.

Where does the word "ceremonial" come in on that verse? How did you decide that the Saturday Sabbath was in fact NOT a Sabbath in a verse speaking generally of Sabbaths? Where does Paul exclude ANY Sabbath from his teaching there? Is it Paul excluding it or is it you?

Ka-Bella, if you read Colossians 2 from the beginning it will be clear what kind of sabbaths Paul is referring to. He even mentions circumcision and that some people will try to deceive believers with vain philosophies.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward...

[vooke]

Nuff Sed,

My other question was, why would Paul practice abrogated Laws such as Nazirite Vow, circumcision and keeping the Feast? You have no answer except to claim that ONLY Paul observed the same.

The import of this is, Jews retaining Jewishness AFTER Pentecost is no commandment to Gentiles to undertake the same. So you should NEVER claim that you are keeping the Sabbath because there are records of the same among the early church. You may as well circumcise and take the Nazirite vows.

You should also never quote Jesus because he was born UNDER the Law to save us from the Law. He was NEVER guilty of breaking none of the 613 Laws. Comprende?

[vooke]

Reading the entire Colossians is healthy but it does not subtract from Paul.

He has ALREADY mentioned 'holy day, new moon'....these OBVIOUSLY are Jewish and they entail the Feasts,why would he mention the feasts twice? He is clearly instructing the church not to be bothered by ANY Jewish feasts including the weekly Sabbath. Note the progression from annual, monthly and finally weekly..all of these are shadows

Could you please share with us what are 'holy day,new moon'?

Ka-Bella, if you read Colossians 2 from the beginning it will be clear what kind of sabbaths Paul is referring to. He even mentions circumcision and that some people will try to deceive believers with vain philosophies.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward...

[GeeMail]

This is what we call a straw man, Daily Bread. Who has "moralized away" the ten commandments? I simply explained to you what they mean to a Christian. If the only reason you don't kill is that it was written by God for the Jews on a piece of stone, then that is truly sad, because you are no Jew but an African gentile.

Thank goodness that we respect all those laws not because they were part of a foreign covenant but because they are part of God's rules for US, as humans, right from Adam. Yet of all the covenants that God made, including the one that Jews recognize as binding on gentiles (the Noahide covenant and laws) only the one he made with Jews includes a command to set apart one out of seven days and then one specific day.

I'm sorry for using the word "moralize" inappropriately. I withdraw it. The question you raise was dealt with by Paul. Being a Pharisee, he did not know certain things about God. But he extends the reasoning beyond himself. Without God, we cannot know what is sin. Only by the law of God do we know what is right or wrong, no matter how proud we are of our natural feelings. I can imagine that some pedophiles rape altar boys in following their natural feelings. We live in a corrupted, sin-sick world so be careful when you rely on your feelings. It takes God to get us out of darkness into His marvelous light.

Romans 7
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

[GeeMail]

Nuff Sed,

My other question was, why would Paul practice abrogated Laws such as Nazirite Vow, circumcision and keeping the Feast? You have no answer except to claim that ONLY Paul observed the same.

The import of this is, Jews retaining Jewishness AFTER Pentecost is no commandment to Gentiles to undertake the same. So you should NEVER claim that you are keeping the Sabbath because there are records of the same among the early church. You may as well circumcise and take the Nazirite vows.

You should also never quote Jesus because he was born UNDER the Law to save us from the Law. He was NEVER guilty of breaking none of the 613 Laws. Comprende?

The question is not addressed to me but be careful before you cheapen Christ and warn me against quoting Him. By taking the place of the lamb of sacrifice and causing the veil in the temple to be torn apart, Christ "broke" almost all 613 ceremonial laws in one stroke. i used quotation marks deliberately because Christ fulfilled those laws that "were a shadow of things to come". Read Paul's warning in Col 2 again.
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Paul did many things and some of his letters were lost. We see him circumcising Timothy grudgingly "for the sake of the Jews" and Titus does the same. What Paul did as a Jew does not make his deeds binding to Gentiles. However, what he did as a follower of Christ is by his example binding. The Sabbath precedes Jews by hundreds of years. This is the reason why if we accept we are sinful by virtue of being Adam's descendants, we should by the same token accept Christ's sacrifice because he is the second Adam. All the promises that apply to the Jews as God's people apply to Christians today because we are all God's children and have been "grafted in" the true vine. All the promises that applied to Adam who observed the first Sabbath in Eden, did not steal or commit adultery, did not covet or worship idols etc also apply to us by faith and will apply when Eden is restored at Christ's second coming.

Revelation 22 King James Version (KJV)

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

[vooke]

I see you can't answer the question.

I can address you by quoting your posts without necessarily calling you by your name which I don't even know.

You cheapen the cost of redemption and reduce Christianity to mindless subscription to an 18th century mad woman's garbage. You are not ashamed of claiming to be the 'remnant' and EVERYONE outside White's claws to be spiritually dead

Quote Jesus and Paul but pray tell us why you won't keep Passover yet BOTH kept it. Did nobody warn you against quoting Jesus? These are your legendary strawman

T

Nuff Sed,

My other question was, why would Paul practice abrogated Laws such as Nazirite Vow, circumcision and keeping the Feast? You have no answer except to claim that ONLY Paul observed the same.

The import of this is, Jews retaining Jewishness AFTER Pentecost is no commandment to Gentiles to undertake the same. So you should NEVER claim that you are keeping the Sabbath because there are records of the same among the early church. You may as well circumcise and take the Nazirite vows.

You should also never quote Jesus because he was born UNDER the Law to save us from the Law. He was NEVER guilty of breaking none of the 613 Laws. Comprende?

The question is not addressed to me but be careful before you cheapen Christ and warn me against quoting Him. Paul gives this warning in Col 2.
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[Ka-Bella]

.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward...

What has circumcision got to do with anything? Paul speaks of both! Not only does he mention Sabbaths, he mentions "an hoy day", is the Saturday Sabbath neither a Sabbath, nor a holy day? You can claim to be able to read Paul's mind but please show me in that passage what excludes the Sabbath besides your on presumption that it is untouchable?

This is what we call a straw man, Daily Bread. Who has "moralized away" the ten commandments? I simply explained to you what they mean to a Christian. If the only reason you don't kill is that it was written by God for the Jews on a piece of stone, then that is truly sad, because you are no Jew but an African gentile.

Thank goodness that we respect all those laws not because they were part of a foreign covenant but because they are part of God's rules for US, as humans, right from Adam. Yet of all the covenants that God made, including the one that Jews recognize as binding on gentiles (the Noahide covenant and laws) only the one he made with Jews includes a command to set apart one out of seven days and then one specific day.

I'm sorry for using the word "moralize" inappropriately. I withdraw it. The question you raise was dealt with by Paul. Being a Pharisee, he did not know certain things about God. But he extends the reasoning beyond himself. Without God, we cannot know what is sin. Only by the law of God do we know what is right or wrong, no matter how proud we are of our natural feelings. I can imagine that some pedophiles rape altar boys in following their natural feelings. We live in a corrupted, sin-sick world so be careful when you rely on your feelings. It takes God to get us out of darkness into His marvelous light.

Romans 7
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Of course, in all this you assume that only "commandments" qualify as law, yet Cain committed murder without such a commandment. Are you saying that Cain broke no divine law when he murdered his brother?

[GeeMail]

Reading the entire Colossians is healthy but it does not subtract from Paul.

He has ALREADY mentioned 'holy day, new moon'....these OBVIOUSLY are Jewish and they entail the Feasts,why would he mention the feasts twice? He is clearly instructing the church not to be bothered by ANY Jewish feasts including the weekly Sabbath. Note the progression from annual, monthly and finally weekly..all of these are shadows

Could you please share with us what are 'holy day,new moon'?

Ka-Bella, if you read Colossians 2 from the beginning it will be clear what kind of sabbaths Paul is referring to. He even mentions circumcision and that some people will try to deceive believers with vain philosophies.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward...

How readest thou? The Sabbath of the fourth commandment was not and is not a Jewish feast in the manner of holydays and circumcision as referred to in Col 2. Please read Col 2 again from verse 1.

[vooke]

You have told us that Sabbath was NOT a holy day nor new moon. This means you know what these are and they are not.

What is a 'holy day,new moon'?

How readest thou? The Sabbath of the fourth commandment was not and is not a Jewish feast in the manner of holydays and circumcision as referred to in Col 2. Please read Col 2 again from verse 1.

[GeeMail]

.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward...

What has circumcision got to do with anything? Paul speaks of both! Not only does he mention Sabbaths, he mentions "an hoy day", is the Saturday Sabbath neither a Sabbath, nor a holy day? You can claim to be able to read Paul's mind but please show me in that passage what excludes the Sabbath besides your on presumption that it is untouchable?

This is what we call a straw man, Daily Bread. Who has "moralized away" the ten commandments? I simply explained to you what they mean to a Christian. If the only reason you don't kill is that it was written by God for the Jews on a piece of stone, then that is truly sad, because you are no Jew but an African gentile.

Thank goodness that we respect all those laws not because they were part of a foreign covenant but because they are part of God's rules for US, as humans, right from Adam. Yet of all the covenants that God made, including the one that Jews recognize as binding on gentiles (the Noahide covenant and laws) only the one he made with Jews includes a command to set apart one out of seven days and then one specific day.

I'm sorry for using the word "moralize" inappropriately. I withdraw it. The question you raise was dealt with by Paul. Being a Pharisee, he did not know certain things about God. But he extends the reasoning beyond himself. Without God, we cannot know what is sin. Only by the law of God do we know what is right or wrong, no matter how proud we are of our natural feelings. I can imagine that some pedophiles rape altar boys in following their natural feelings. We live in a corrupted, sin-sick world so be careful when you rely on your feelings. It takes God to get us out of darkness into His marvelous light.

Romans 7
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Of course, in all this you assume that only "commandments" qualify as law, yet Cain committed murder without such a commandment. Are you saying that Cain broke no divine law when he murdered his brother?

I assume no such thing. Cain indeed broke divine law and reaped the whirlwind. Unwritten law is still law. The codification of unwritten law does not nullify their previous existence. Thus the Sabbath law was present in Eden and beyond (before Sinai) as unwritten law. That's one reason the fourth commandment begins with "Remember."

The codification of the Ten Commandments was necessitated by sin and not least by the corrupting influence of life under slavery in Egypt. Thanks for making my point though.

[GeeMail]

You have told us that Sabbath was NOT a holy day nor new moon. What is a 'holy day,new moon'?

If you want to know more about holydays, new moons and the feasts, go to Leviticus 23 which refers to the Sabbath day and other sabbaths too. Paul being a pharisee knew the difference and refers to holydays, new moons and sabbaths in that context in Col 2. To clarify, in Lev 23 God begins with the Sabbath commandment in order to avoid confusion with the feast/ceremonial sabbaths highlighted in that same chapter.

Leviticus 23 King James Version (KJV)

1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

[Ka-Bella]

I'm sorry for using the word "moralize" inappropriately. I withdraw it. The question you raise was dealt with by Paul. Being a Pharisee, he did not know certain things about God. But he extends the reasoning beyond himself. Without God, we cannot know what is sin. Only by the law of God do we know what is right or wrong, no matter how proud we are of our natural feelings. I can imagine that some pedophiles rape altar boys in following their natural feelings. We live in a corrupted, sin-sick world so be careful when you rely on your feelings. It takes God to get us out of darkness into His marvelous light.

Romans 7
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Also, you TOTALLY missed my point. I did NOT state that NATURE authors our law. I stated that GOD inscribed his laws into our very nature, otherwise we would all be psychopaths. But you know that even Africans knew not to steal, kill, commit adultery etc, looong before the white man brought the bible to our lands. Do you suppose the devil told them? Or perhaps it was God....by inscribing it in their conscience, which even St. Paul recognizes in the New Testament. Humans despite being fallen, are creatures of reason and reason discerns basic rules of fairness every day all over this planet. Not very well, of course, because Adam sinned and fell and transmitted to us his fallen human nature rather than the perfect human nature he received from his creator. Yet, even though fallen, it is not TOTALLY depraved (unless you believe Calvinists) but can still discern basic right from wrong.

To state that I am denying God as the author of the law by recognizing the universal moral law makes no sense, unless you believe human nature has a different creator other than the one Lord and creator who makes us all recognize, for example, that something is wrong with having sex with an animal, or a member of one's sex, or a sexually immature child. That doesn't mean that we always follow this good sense. We are weak and are often pulled into all sorts of sins, but that doesn't mean we are always blind about the fact that we are committing a moral evil when we do.

[vooke]

Why are you shooting yourself in the foot?

Don't that very verse call Weekly Sabbath a FEAST?

You have told us that Sabbath was NOT a holy day nor new moon. What is a 'holy day,new moon'?

If you want to know more about holydays, new moons and the feasts, go to Leviticus 23 which refers to the Sabbath day and other sabbaths too. Paul being a pharisee knew the difference and refers to holydays, new moons and sabbaths in that context in Col 2. To clarify, in Lev 23 God begins with the Sabbath commandment in order to avoid confusion with the feast/ceremonial sabbaths highlighted in that same chapter.

Leviticus 23 King James Version (KJV)

1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

[GeeMail]

I'm sorry for using the word "moralize" inappropriately. I withdraw it. The question you raise was dealt with by Paul. Being a Pharisee, he did not know certain things about God. But he extends the reasoning beyond himself. Without God, we cannot know what is sin. Only by the law of God do we know what is right or wrong, no matter how proud we are of our natural feelings. I can imagine that some pedophiles rape altar boys in following their natural feelings. We live in a corrupted, sin-sick world so be careful when you rely on your feelings. It takes God to get us out of darkness into His marvelous light.

Romans 7
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Also, you TOTALLY missed my point. I did NOT state that NATURE authors our law. I stated that GOD inscribed his laws into our very nature, otherwise we would all be psychopaths. But you know that even Africans knew not to steal, kill, commit adultery etc, looong before the white man brought the bible to our lands. Do you suppose the devil told them? Or perhaps it was God....by inscribing it in their conscience, which even St. Paul recognizes in the New Testament. Humans despite being fallen, are creatures of reason and reason discerns basic rules of fairness every day all over this planet. Not very well, of course, because Adam sinned and fell and transmitted to us his fallen human nature rather than the perfect human nature he received from his creator. Yet, even though fallen, it is not TOTALLY depraved (unless you believe Calvinists) but can still discern basic right from wrong.

To state that I am denying God as the author of the law by recognizing the universal moral law makes no sense, unless you believe human nature has a different creator other than the one Lord and creator who makes us all recognize, for example, that something is wrong with having sex with an animal, or a member of one's sex, or a sexually immature child. That doesn't mean that we always follow this good sense. We are weak and are often pulled into all sorts of sins, but that doesn't mean we are always blind about the fact that we are committing a moral evil when we do.

Indeed. All humans having originated from God have not lost all moral direction. However, a look at the Bible and history shows that man is full of depravity sprinkled with occasional acts of good. By culture, practice and tradition, man consistently shows that he came from God but got lost somewhere (the entrance of sin and the presence of a tempting Devil). It took the hand of an external Man (Christ) to bring him back to his senses. The coming of Christ was meant to restore the full image of God in man. That is why Christ broke no commandment but fulfilled them. The Sabbath was one of them.

[GeeMail]

Why are you shooting yourself in the foot?

Don't that very verse call Weekly Sabbath a FEAST?

You have told us that Sabbath was NOT a holy day nor new moon. What is a 'holy day,new moon'?

If you want to know more about holydays, new moons and the feasts, go to Leviticus 23 which refers to the Sabbath day and other sabbaths too. Paul being a pharisee knew the difference and refers to holydays, new moons and sabbaths in that context in Col 2. To clarify, in Lev 23 God begins with the Sabbath commandment in order to avoid confusion with the feast/ceremonial sabbaths highlighted in that same chapter.

Leviticus 23 King James Version (KJV)

1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

The first few verses of Leviticus 23 are a preamble. Knowing that there was a weekly Sabbath already decreed in His law written with His own finger, God separated the Sabbath commandment from the ceremonial sabbaths. To avoid confusion, He gives the Sabbath commandment first. Try reading slowly before coming to a conclusion.

[Ka-Bella]

I assume no such thing. Cain indeed broke divine law and reaped the whirlwind. Unwritten law is still law. The codification of unwritten law does not nullify their previous existence. Thus the Sabbath law was present in Eden and beyond (before Sinai) as unwritten law. That's one reason the fourth commandment begins with "Remember."

The codification of the Ten Commandments was necessitated by sin and not least by the corrupting influence of life under slavery in Egypt. Thanks for making my point though.

Sorry, no point of yours has been made. The point was that we don't simply obey the ten commandments just because "they are the ten commandments" and are "special" but only in as far as they represent the universal moral law which binds us by virtue of us being human. In as far as it includes rules that are not pat of this universal law, such as resting specifically on Saturday, for example, we don't obey it just because "it is in the ten commandments and God wrote them with his own finger!" like you seem to think. In that, we obey only what is universal (make time to worship your God!) and ignore the rest that has been addressed to the Israelites when we are Europeans, Africans, Asians etc etc

It is interesting that you brought up the connection between the Sabbath and the exodus, had nearly forgotten how God wanted the Israelites to keep the Sabbath in remembrance of their deliverance....reminds you of the Passover feast, no? When were you saved from bondage in Egypt, Daily Bread? Why do you think you or I need to constantly remember this by keeping Sabbath? To the contrary, I remember my deliverance from sin and death (baptism and conversion) every day and especially on Sunday, the Lord's day, when Christ definitively triumphed over death that Adam's sins (and mine) wrought.

[vooke]

Kadame saidia hapa....'THESE ARE THE APPOINTED FEASTS.....but hey, this is a preamble'...
Nuff Sed, you are running around in circles. Where is the 'separation' of the Sabbath from sabbaths?
Which 'confusion' is he avoiding? Who to,d you he is 'avoiding confusion'?
 Where does the preamble start and where does it end? Why are you adding to the Word of God?

He says THEY ARE THE APPOINTED FEASTS and Nuff Sed says, 'hell no, the first one is a preamble!'

The first few verses of Leviticus 23 are a preamble. Knowing that there was a weekly Sabbath already decreed in His law written with His own finger, God separated the Sabbath commandment from the ceremonial sabbaths. To avoid confusion, He gives the Sabbath commandment first. Try reading slowly before coming to a conclusion.

[Ka-Bella]

Kadame saidia hapa....'THESE ARE THE APPOINTED FEASTS.....but hey, this is a preamble'...
Nuff Sed, you are running around in circles. Where is the 'separation' of the Sabbath from sabbaths?
Which 'confusion' is he avoiding? Who to,d you he is 'avoiding confusion'?
 Where does the preamble start and where does it end? Why are you adding to the Word of God?

He says THEY ARE THE APPOINTED FEASTS and Nuff Sed says, 'hell no, the first one is a preamble!'

The first few verses of Leviticus 23 are a preamble. Knowing that there was a weekly Sabbath already decreed in His law written with His own finger, God separated the Sabbath commandment from the ceremonial sabbaths. To avoid confusion, He gives the Sabbath commandment first. Try reading slowly before coming to a conclusion.

Daily Bread has simply decided that the Sabbath is not a Sabbath or holy day/feast, not because Paul says so but because it is convenient to her positions. "These are the appointed feasts" is about as clear as one can get. Otherwise, what are "THESE" that the sentence refers to, besides the list that immediately follows? English.....