The Lord's Day

[vooke]

Sabbath is as BINDING as Passover, it remains on Saturday and it has ZERO significance in the life of a Christian. The real choice is whether to circumcise because Jesus and the apostles were all circumcised or ignore the same seeing it AVAILETH nothing

Nuff Sed,
Can you regale us on when you last observed the Feast of Weeks

Having made the point about the origin of Sunday worship and that majority of Christians have no idea, I want to say that knowing which is the true Sabbath is not enough. You must make a choice. Many Sabbath keepers may still miss the heavenly kingdom just like the Sabbath-keeping Pharisees rejected Christ. In the same manner, many Sunday keepers may be in heaven because they obeyed God in the light they had.

Luke 12
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

God calls us to faithful obedience with the light that we have. Now that you know which is the true Sabbath, the choice is yours to make. Either follow the traditions and suppositions of men, or what the Lord says.

[Ka-Bella]

Also, I hadnt seen your reference to that American cardinal, so apologies. I dont know what says he authored that article, but even if he did, his singular article intended as a retort to religious rivals has no authority whatsover, especially on a matter such as this for which the authorities are so numerous and consistent, spanning 2,000 years. The myth that Sunday became the Christian day of worship after Constantine is pure fiction. The Didache, dating from 80 AD and numerous other early Christian writings from the 1st through the 3rd centuries show clearly that Christians met on the day of Christ's resurrection, which they called 'the Lord's day', not on the Jewish sabbath, especially GENTILE Christians. You also misrespresent John Paul II who has painstakingly distinguished the Jewish sabbath from the Christian day of worship, plaese read his encyclical before simplifying his viewsin such a misleading manner.

[vooke]

kadame,
Nuff Sed is clearly being dishonest in regurgitating that garbage that Catholicism invented 'Sunday worship'.  In ALL the links I shared, it is very clear that Sunday meetings are as old as Christianity.

1 Cor 16:2 (ESV)
2 On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come

Study this verse closely.
It tells us that Paul instructed collection for the poor saints on EVERY Sunday. The question is why Sunday and not Thursday?  more importantly, why would the saints who were meeting on Sabbath as Nuff Sed imagines be instructed to collect the next day? Was it 'unlawful' to collect it on Saturday?

The answer is simple, they regularly met on Sunday. This is the CLEAREST scriptural proof of regular weekly fellowship on Sunday and not Saturday else the instruction would have been to collect the offering during the Sabbath meetings.  Here is what went down during the meetings;
Acts 20:7 (ESV)
 7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight

Now, part of the early church especially the Jewish branch maintained some Jewishness; this explains why Peter went to the temple to pray at specific hours (Acts 3:1), Paul observed Jewish annual feasts (Acts 18:21), Paul kept the Nazirite vow (Acts 18:18), and many such WITHOUT imposing the same on the Gentiles. This is why it is very dishonest of Adventists to selectively flaunt Sabbath keeping by the Jewish Christians as validation of their sect while ignoring the other Jewishness aspects

Also, I hadnt seen your reference to that American cardinal, so apologies. I dont know what says he authored that article, but even if he did, his singular article intended as a retort to religious rivals has no authority whatsover, especially on a matter such as this for which the authorities are so numerous and consistent, spanning 2,000 years. The myth that Sunday became the Christian day of worship after Constantine is pure fiction. The Didache, dating from 80 AD and numerous other early Christian writings from the 1st through the 3rd centuries show clearly that Christians met on the day of Christ's resurrection, which they called 'the Lord's day', not on the Jewish sabbath, especially GENTILE Christians. You also misrespresent John Paul II who has painstakingly distinguished the Jewish sabbath from the Christian day of worship, plaese read his encyclical before simplifying his viewsin such a misleading manner.

[GeeMail]

1 Cor 16:2 (ESV)
2 On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come


Acts 20:7 (ESV)
 7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight

It's a pity when a believer deliberately misleads others. How do these verses endorse Sunday worship or abrogate the Sabbath? Have you not read that the apostles broke bread daily? The verse about collecting offerings leaves the question of worship. Keeping the Sabbath is more than collecting offerings.

Acts 2
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

To compare the Sabbath to the Passover is to be disingenuous. One is the fourth commandment, while the other is part of ceremonial law. Would you say not committing adultery is as biding as keeping the feast of weeks? In any case, Christians celebrate Passover regularly, hence if some ceremonial laws are so well kept, what about the commandments? The Ten Commandments have never been abrogated, and the sanctity of the Sabbath remains. When you get a scriptural abrogation of the Sabbath commandment, the debate can progress. Let me repeat the questions asked by the author of the Catholic Mirror articles.

     1st. Which day of the week does the Bible enjoin to be kept holy?

     2nd. Had the New Testament modified by precept or practice the original command?

     3rd. Have Protestants, since the sixteenth century, obeyed the command of God by keeping "holy" the day enjoined by their infallible guide and teacher, the Bible? And if not, why not?

By the third question, the Catholic Mirror opens up that only up to the 16th Century, Christians kept the Sabbath (some kept both Saturday and Sunday). It was only up to the 16th Century that the Reformation picked up and unveiled her nakedness (tradition over the word of God).

Let me recap some of the arguments that have been brought up in response to Rome's Challenge (here and elsewhere).
1. Sunday is the Lord's Day. This has been thoroughly discredited. All references in the bible about "the day of the Lord" are about the day of judgment. The Catholic Mirror shows it better than I ever could.
2. The Catholic church transferred solemnity from Saturday to Sunday. This is the brutal, honest truth. The church purported to change the law of God.
3. Paul met Christians on the first day of the week to collect offerings. This is no command to overturn the fourth commandment.
4. Jesus rose on Sunday, so we worship on that day. Nowhere do you see Christ asking the church to mark the day, nor does scripture record the apostles keeping Sunday in this manner. The same deception brought about Christmas, a pagan holiday adopted by apostate Christianity. Christ never marked his own birthday.
5. We have lost track of time, so you cannot tell which is the Sabbath. Jews exist for a good reason. They have never lost track of the weekly cycle. In any case, Sunday keepers never bring up this question when they worship Sunday after Sunday like clockwork.
6. The Sabbath is not binding today, it was nailed to the cross. A preposterous claim. Were the commandments to honor father and mother, not commit adultery, not to steal etc also nailed to the cross? Christians have no problem with the Ten commandments, but when you ask them about the fourth commandment, they begin to google in the sand.
7. We do not worship the Sabbath, every day is the same. Another hollow argument, considering that the Sunday worshipers keep Sunday faithfully.
8. Anybody can choose his own day to worship. That would be fine for idol worship or those who worship themselves. Nobody makes such excuses for other commandments. The Sabbath is commanded by God and not man.

[GeeMail]

Ka-Bella your civility is truly Christian. I appreciate it.

You seem to question the authority of the Catholic Mirror articles. Note that they were editorials, not ordinary stories by small time reporters. An editorial is the voice of the publisher. If you want to know what Aga Khan thinks, see what Nation writes in its editorials. Again, the Catholic church has many other publications. If, let's assume, the Mirror was rogue, we'd have read other Catholic publications denouncing it. Have you read such a denouncement?

I'm aware of the Didache. It cannot be cited as an authority on this matter. You know its authorship and contents have been questioned.

About when Christians first kept Sunday, the historical records trace it to Constantine's conversion. Regardless, believers rightly question any doctrines originating from without the bible. Even if the early believers (outside the Bible) called Sunday the Lord's day, it does not make it the Sabbath. It's like saying Christians should celebrate October because believers in Germany called it Oktoberfest. I would have been glad to entertain verses believers rely on for Sunday worship like the other poster attempted but alas! They only make for a suicidal argument (to borrow the words of the Catholic Mirror).

[GeeMail]

Also, I hadnt seen your reference to that American cardinal, so apologies. I dont know what says he authored that article, but even if he did, his singular article intended as a retort to religious rivals has no authority whatsover, especially on a matter such as this for which the authorities are so numerous and consistent, spanning 2,000 years. The myth that Sunday became the Christian day of worship after Constantine is pure fiction. The Didache, dating from 80 AD and numerous other early Christian writings from the 1st through the 3rd centuries show clearly that Christians met on the day of Christ's resurrection, which they called 'the Lord's day', not on the Jewish sabbath, especially GENTILE Christians. You also misrespresent John Paul II who has painstakingly distinguished the Jewish sabbath from the Christian day of worship, plaese read his encyclical before simplifying his viewsin such a misleading manner.

Ka-Bella,
I have done some research on your question of when the Catholic church started referring to Sunday as the Sabbath, or whether early Christians observed Sabbath on Sunday, and whether the change of the Sabbath can be attributed to Constantine.

Encyclopedia Brittanica
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/573790/Sundaybut details of the actual development of the custom are not clear. The emperor Constantine (d. 337), a convert to Christianity, introduced the first civil legislation concerning Sunday in 321, when he decreed that all work should cease on Sunday, except that farmers could work if necessary. This law, aimed at providing time for worship, was followed later in the same century and in subsequent centuries by further restrictions on Sunday activities.


Wikipedia (not a reliable source but let's use it for now).
"The ancient Romans traditionally used the eight-day nundinal cycle, a market week, but in the time of Augustus in the 1st century AD, a seven-day week also came into use.
On 7 March 321, Constantine I, Rome's first Christian Emperor (see Constantine I and Christianity), decreed that Sunday would be observed as the Roman day of rest:[5]
On the venerable Day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost.[6]
Despite the official adoption of Sunday as a day of rest by Constantine, the two days continued to be used side-by-side until at least the Calendar of 354 and probably later.[7]
In 363, Canon 29 of the Council of Laodicea prohibited observance of the Jewish Sabbath (Saturday), and encouraged Christians to work on the Saturday and rest on the Lord's Day (Sunday).[8] The fact that the canon had to be issued at all is an indication that adoption of Constantine's decree of 321 was still not universal, not even among Christians. It also indicates that Jews were observing the Sabbath on the Saturday."

So while the custom may not have originated with Constantine, it was he who enforced Sunday worship by decree. This is one of the first cases of the unholy unity of the church and state which we believe will happen again to enforce unscriptural decrees. In the end times, the unity will be a trinity of church, state and spiritualism (Satan and his forces behind the scenes).

You notice that the Council of Laodecia knew clearly that the Sabbath was Saturday (even adding the word Jewish). Many centuries later, the Catholic church now called Sunday the Sabbath and even wants it kept Jewish style (Pope John Paul II's encyclicals called for avoidance of sports, worship and rest on Sunday) and the world follows the deceptive change.

[GeeMail]

Ka-Bella,

More for you on the change of tack by the Catholic church demonstrating what it did with the Sabbath commandment and his rebuke to protestants (sola scriptura).

From the Reverend John A. O'Brien of the Catholic church:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Faith-Millions-John-OBrien/dp/B009V71HXM

... the Bible does not contain all the teachings of the Christian religion, nor does it: formulate all the duties of its members. Take, for example, the matter of Sunday observance, the attendance at divine services and the abstention from unnecessary servile work on that day, a matter upon which our Protestant neighbors have for many years laid great emphasis. Let me address myself in a friendly spirit to my dear Protestant reader: You believe that the Bible alone is a safe guide in religious matters. You also believe that one of the fundamental duties enjoined upon you by your Christian faith is that of Sunday observance. But where does the Bible speak of such an obligation? I have read the Bible from the first verse of Genesis to the last verse of Revelations, and have found no reference to the duty of sanctifying the Sunday. The day mentioned in the Bible is not the Sunday, the first day of the week, but the Saturday, the last day of the week. It was the Apostolic Church which, acting by virtue of that authority conferred upon her by Christ, changed the observance to the Sunday in honor of the day on which Christ rose from the dead, and to signify that now we are no longer under the Old Law of the Jews, but under the New Law of Christ. In observing the Sunday as you do, is it not apparent that you are really acknowledging the insufficiency of the Bible alone as a rule of faith and religious conduct, and proclaiming the need of a divinely established teaching authority which in theory you deny?

Source: The Faith of Millions, by the Reverend John A. O'Brien, PH. D., 4th Edition, copyright 1938, published by Our Sunday Visitor, Huntington, Ind., page 147.

[vooke]

Nuff Sed,
You are running away from 1 Cor 16:2
These are the relevant questions;
1. Why would Paul require Corinthians and Galatians and we may presume everywhere else he preached to collect an offering for the poor saints on the day AFTER they was meeting?

One confused White follower has claimed that They were collecting fruits and it would have violated Sabbath carrying these to church. So the idea was to collect foodstuff weekly awaiting Paul.
Another has claimed that it is unlawful to carry money to church on Sabbath,something that even the Pharisee never considered unlawful.
Yet another claims that the setting apart happened privately so there was no meeting. But the reason for setting apart is clear; so there would be no collection when Paul visited unannounced. So if they had set apart at home, they would still have needed to collect when Paul visited

2. Are these instructions binding on you Nuff Sed?

1 Cor 16:2 (ESV)
2 On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come


Acts 20:7 (ESV)
 7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight

It's a pity when a believer deliberately misleads others. How do these verses endorse Sunday worship or abrogate the Sabbath? Have you not read that the apostles broke bread daily? The verse about collecting offerings leaves the question of worship. Keeping the Sabbath is more than collecting offerings.

Acts 2
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

To compare the Sabbath to the Passover is to be disingenuous. One is the fourth commandment, while the other is part of ceremonial law. Would you say not committing adultery is as biding as keeping the feast of weeks? In any case, Christians celebrate Passover regularly, hence if some ceremonial laws are so well kept, what about the commandments? The Ten Commandments have never been abrogated, and the sanctity of the Sabbath remains. When you get a scriptural abrogation of the Sabbath commandment, the debate can progress. Let me repeat the questions asked by the author of the Catholic Mirror articles.

     1st. Which day of the week does the Bible enjoin to be kept holy?

     2nd. Had the New Testament modified by precept or practice the original command?

     3rd. Have Protestants, since the sixteenth century, obeyed the command of God by keeping "holy" the day enjoined by their infallible guide and teacher, the Bible? And if not, why not?

By the third question, the Catholic Mirror opens up that only up to the 16th Century, Christians kept the Sabbath (some kept both Saturday and Sunday). It was only up to the 16th Century that the Reformation picked up and unveiled her nakedness (tradition over the word of God).

Let me recap some of the arguments that have been brought up in response to Rome's Challenge (here and elsewhere).
1. Sunday is the Lord's Day. This has been thoroughly discredited. All references in the bible about "the day of the Lord" are about the day of judgment. The Catholic Mirror shows it better than I ever could.
2. The Catholic church transferred solemnity from Saturday to Sunday. This is the brutal, honest truth. The church purported to change the law of God.
3. Paul met Christians on the first day of the week to collect offerings. This is no command to overturn the fourth commandment.
4. Jesus rose on Sunday, so we worship on that day. Nowhere do you see Christ asking the church to mark the day, nor does scripture record the apostles keeping Sunday in this manner. The same deception brought about Christmas, a pagan holiday adopted by apostate Christianity. Christ never marked his own birthday.
5. We have lost track of time, so you cannot tell which is the Sabbath. Jews exist for a good reason. They have never lost track of the weekly cycle. In any case, Sunday keepers never bring up this question when they worship Sunday after Sunday like clockwork.
6. The Sabbath is not binding today, it was nailed to the cross. A preposterous claim. Were the commandments to honor father and mother, not commit adultery, not to steal etc also nailed to the cross? Christians have no problem with the Ten commandments, but when you ask them about the fourth commandment, they begin to google in the sand.
7. We do not worship the Sabbath, every day is the same. Another hollow argument, considering that the Sunday worshipers keep Sunday faithfully.
8. Anybody can choose his own day to worship. That would be fine for idol worship or those who worship themselves. Nobody makes such excuses for other commandments. The Sabbath is commanded by God and not man.

[vooke]

Nuff Sed,
I have noted that you have some respect for authorities; let's consult them

ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA: Sunday, first day of the week; in Christianity, the Lord's Day, the weekly memorial of Jesus Christ's resurrection from the dead. The practice of Christians gathering together for worship on Sunday dates back to apostolic times, but details of the actual development of the custom are not clear. Before the end of the 1st Century AD, the author of Revelation gave the first day its name of the "Lord's Day" (Rev. 1:10). Saint Justin Martyr (c. 100-c. 165), philosopher and defender of the Christian faith, in his writings described the Christians gathered together for worship on the Lord's Day: the gospels or the Old Testament was read, the presiding minister preached a sermon, and the group prayed together and celebrated the Lord's Supper. The emperor Constantine (d. 337), a convert to Christianity, introduced the first civil legislation concerning Sunday in 321, when he decreed that all work should cease on Sunday, except that farmers could work if necessary. This law, aimed at providing time for worship, was followed later in the same century and in subsequent centuries by further restrictions on Sunday activities. (15th edition, vol. 11, pg. 392)

ENCYCLOPEDIA AMERICANA: From the apostolic era to the present it has been customary for Christians to assemble for communal Sunday services... Civil laws requiring the observance of Sunday date back at least to Emperor Constantine the Great, who designated Sunday as a legal day of rest and worship in 321. This law, however was not specifically Christian, since Sunday was the day of the sun-god for pagans as well as the Lord's day for Christians. While Constantine thus managed to please the two major religious groups in the Roman empire, numerous later law regulating behavior on Sunday have been avowedly Christian. (Sunday, 1988, pg. 21)

COLLIER'S ENCYCLOPEDIA: The New Testament contains clear evidence that from a very early period the first day of the week was observed by Christians as a day of assembly for "the breaking of bread" and perhaps for the collection of freewill offerings. (Acts xx:7 and 1 Corinth xvi:2). Justin Martyr in the middle of the second century describes how "on the day called Sunday" all town and country Christians assembled for instructions in holy writings, for prayer distribution of bread and wine, and the collection of alms. Tertullian declared that the Christians "made Sunday a day of joy, but for other reasons that to adore the sun which was not part of their religion. (Sunday, , 1985, pg. 632-633)

HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH: The celebration of the Lord's Day in memory of the resurrection of Christ dates undoubtedly from the apostolic age. Nothing short of apostolic precedent can account for the universal religious observance in the churches of the second century. There is no dissenting voice. This custom is confirmed by the testimonies of the earliest post-apostolic writers, as Barnabas, Ignatius, and Justin Martyr. (Philip Schaff, , vol. 1, pg. 201-202)

HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH: Hence, the first day was already in the apostolic age honorably designated as "the Lord's Day." ...it appears, therefore, from the New Testament itself, that Sunday was observed as a day of worship, and in special commemoration of the Resurrection, whereby the work of redemption was finished. The universal and uncontradicted Sunday observance in the second century can only be explained by the fact that it has its roots in apostolic practice. (Philip Schaff, , vol. 1, pg. 478-479)

NEW SCHAFF HERZOG ENCYCLOPEDIA: The earliest traces of the observance of the first day of the week in remembrance of Christ's resurrection is found in the Pauline period of the Apostolic Age... Sunday was first regulated by civil authority in 321, under Constantine, directing that the day be hallowed and observed appropriately. (Sunday, pg. 145)


I know you are another Auntie Hubris conspiracy theorist except your conspiracies are restricted to blaming the Catholic Church for all ills around you but let's go through these references

1. Constantine legislated Sunday rest in 321AD
2. Sunday worship predates Constantine and it stretches to apostolic age
3. Constantine/Catholic church NEVER 'changed sabbath' from Saturday to Sunday

These are MODERN authorities and if you are still debating inside you whether to believe them or not, I can quote traditional authorities as well

An intelligent person like you should be seeking authorities from which White among other Sabbaterians derived their authority from

[GeeMail]

1 Cor 16:2 (ESV)
2 On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come

This verse does not serve the Sunday cause. A little basic English. "Each of you" refers to individuals, which means they would do so at home (which is where stores were). The latter part (no collecting when I come) means when Paul gets there, they will not collect any offerings because it will have been done already. Nothing in the verse indicates that Paul would be getting there on Sunday, or that collecting offering would mean believers congregating for worship. In any case, this applied to Corinthians, and Paul would not be visiting the m every Sunday. His custom was to worship on Sabbath. If this verse changed the Sabbath, there is no reasonable cause why Paul did not state so expressly.

[vooke]

Very smart of you to discover that EACH means individuals

Whatever they were collecting, they was instructed to set it aside EVERY SUNDAY. Setting it aside EVERY SUNDAY would spare them collecting when Paul got there. If they were setting aside and keeping it at home, they would still have been required to collect it together once he visited which is what he was avoiding.

The other question is WHY Sunday and not any other day?
Supposing they were setting aside dry grains and fruits. You don't harvest EVERY week. It must have been cash, and even Bachiochi can't wriggle out of this one...it was cash, the most intelligent way to support poor saints in Jerusalem. Why set aside cash every Sunday and not Tuesday?

Wresting scriptures leads to dumb conclusions

1 Cor 16:2 (ESV)
2 On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come

This verse does not serve the Sunday cause. A little basic English. "Each of you" refers to individuals, which means they would do so at home (which is where stores were). The latter part (no collecting when I come) means when Paul gets there, they will not collect any offerings because it will have been done already. Nothing in the verse indicates that Paul would be getting there on Sunday, or that collecting offering would mean believers congregating for worship. In any case, this applied to Corinthians, and Paul would not be visiting the m every Sunday. His custom was to worship on Sabbath. If this verse changed the Sabbath, there is no reasonable cause why Paul did not have stated so expressly.

[GeeMail]

I respect authority. For doctrine, my only authority is the Bible. None of the encyclopedia you quote offer a single verse abrogating the fourth commandment. Contra, the Bible has several verses showing Jesus and the apostles kept the Sabbath (Acts 17 even records Paul keeping the Sabbath "as his custom was" just like Matthew and Mark record Jesus and the disciples).

Protestant Sunday keepers quote Paul in error. In effect, just like in the wine thread, they accuse Paul of preaching water and drinking wine.

Acts 17 King James Version (KJV)

1Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
2 And Paul, as his manner was,went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,,


For doctrine, I as a believer do not rely on secular sources and traditions of men. Protestants protested against the Catholic church for relying on traditions rather than the Bible. Anything could be sneaked in and attributed to "apostolic times and traditions." Are you still protestant?

[vooke]

Typical circular arguments; when history does not support White,it is WRONG,when it does,it vindicates her....look at how you cleverly avoided the Britannica section I have quoted

I did not quote any of those to derive a doctrine but to demonstrate that Sunday Worship is apostolic and the fact that it was NEVER contested means Sabbath keeping among Gentiles of the church is and was as valid as Passover or animal sacrifices. Think hard before regurgitating that nonsense thT Constantine and Catholicism 'changed Sabbbath'

Whenever you teach about Catholicism being the Beast, do you not quote historical extra biblical sources to justify your stance?

Adventists are notoriously dishonest or ignorant.
Paul observed the Sabbath but he also took the Nazarite vow and shaved his hair. He also kept the Jewish feasts none of which SDAs keep. By the way, he offered an animal sacrifice!
Acts 21:26 (ESV)
26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day he purified himself along with them and went into the temple, giving notice when the days of purification would be fulfilled and the offering presented for each one of them
That's the Nazarite vow of Numbers 6:9-12. I would like to see undertaking it,Nuff Sed clean shaven
 
Why do you stop at Sabbath and ignore ALL of these?

One can't be intelligent,logical and consistent and remain an Adventist
http://www.ukapologetics.net/sabbath.html

I respect authority. For doctrine, my only authority is the Bible. None of the encyclopedia you quote offer a single verse abrogating the fourth commandment. Contra, the Bible has several verses showing Jesus and the apostles kept the Sabbath (Acts 17 even records Paul keeping the Sabbath "as his custom was" just like Matthew and Mark record Jesus and the disciples).

Protestant Sunday keepers quote Paul in error. In effect, just like in the wine thread, they accuse Paul of preaching water and drinking wine.

Acts 17 King James Version (KJV)

1Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
2 And Paul, as his manner was,went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,,


For doctrine, I as a believer do not rely on secular sources and traditions of men. Protestants protested against the Catholic church for relying on traditions rather than the Bible. Anything could be sneaked in and attributed to "apostolic times and traditions." Are you still protestant?

[Ka-Bella]

@Daily Bread, I have several things to say.

First, you are mixing issues. Constantine's edict means nothing as far as the Christian custom is concerned. All it shows is that Constantine was making Christian customs the law of the land. That's basic history. Christianity was illegal for the first 300 years. By Constantine's day, Christians had grown to such a large number that he, being a shrewd politician could see very well that to fight it was silly. He therefore decided to use it as a means of unifying Rome and gradually made it tolerable, then finally, the state religion. That bit referred to is just one more thing he did in this endeavor. Constantine made non-Christians respect Sunday. What has that to do with Christians who already did so without his edict?

Secondly, please respond to vooke on the verses about collecting. If Paul wanted people to "set aside" a portion, how would this help him since he did not want anyone to "collect" on the day he was to meet them? Wouldn't these people still have to put their "stored up" collections together at some point? It is clear that what Paul does NOT want is for the congregation to start collecting money when he is around. He is therefore telling them to do it (put the money together, not individually) before he gets there. Your interpretations make little sense, since it's not clear how everyone putting their money aside at home would help Paul avoid collections on the day he arrived. It's also unclear why Paul would care at all that each person put money aside on a SPECIFIC day, if they were to do it individually in their own homes. Wouldn't he just tell them to each put something aside? Why on the first day for all of them if they were not to do it together?

Thirdly, your statement on the Didache is also based on bad premises. I am not asking you to say that it is scripture or part of revelation. That says absolutely nothing of its import as a historical document. This is not a matter of faith but simple academic fact. The Didache is a HIGHLY reliable historical text dating from between the 70 to 80 AD. If you are claiming that its veracity as a historical document is in doubt, I will ask you to point to academic sources that state as much. The Didache records Christian practices from that time, a very simple document in fact.

Fourthly, you just don't get the thing about that article your quote. The "catholic mirror" "the catholic register" "zenit" whatever....NEITHER of these are pronouncements on catholic teaching. I have told you where to find it if you are looking for it, in catechisms, encyclicals and ecumenical council documents. You keep talking as if those gazettes are some kind of of publication of the church, which quite honestly, to a catholic just sounds like nonsense and like I am talking to someone who hasn't the faintest idea what the catholic church is and how it functions. For starters, find me a catholic who cites the "catholic mirror" as some kind of authority before treating it as this grand church statement.

Fifthly, there is a great deal more than the Didache for you to jump over. I haven't the strength or time to go through the online catalogue of writings of the Ante-Nicene fathers over at ccel, so I will make use of this simple list drawn up by others in response to Adventists and others who make these Sabbath arguments. Please note both the dates and the writers being quoted before you reply. If your reply is to cast doubt on the authenticity of the actual quotations, I will ask you to do a search for the ones you doubt, and find out for yourself that each is the verified quotation of the referenced father.

[A.D. 110]). (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 18, 21 [A.D. 155]).

"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead" (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).
(An Answer to the Jews 2 [A.D. 203]).

[Ka-Bella]

More

The Didascalia



"The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the holy scriptures, and the oblation [sacrifice of the Mass], because on the first day of the week [i.e., Sunday] our Lord rose from the place of the dead, and on the first day of the week he arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week he ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week he will appear at last with the angels of heaven" (Didascalia 2 [A.D. 225]).

 

Origen



"Hence it is not possible that the [day of] rest after the Sabbath should have come into existence from the seventh [day] of our God. On the contrary, it is our Savior who, after the pattern of his own rest, caused us to be made in the likeness of his death, and hence also of his resurrection" (Commentary on John 2:28 [A.D. 229]).(The Creation of the World [A.D. 300]).

 

Eusebius of Caesarea



"They [the early saints of the Old Testament] did not care about circumcision of the body, neither do we [Christians]. They did not care about observing Sabbaths, nor do we. They did not avoid certain kinds of food, neither did they regard the other distinctions which Moses first delivered to their posterity to be observed as symbols; nor do Christians of the present day do such things" (Church History 1:4:8 [A.D. 312]).(Proof of the Gospel 4:16:186 [A.D. 319]). (On Sabbath and Circumcision 3 [A.D. 345]).

 

Cyril of Jerusalem



"Fall not away either into the sect of the Samaritans or into Judaism, for Jesus Christ has henceforth ransomed you. Stand aloof from all observance of Sabbaths and from calling any indifferent meats common or unclean" (Catechetical Lectures 4:37 [A.D. 350]). (Canon 29 [A.D. 360]). (Homilies on the Statutes 12:9 [A.D. 387]). (Homilies on Galatians 2:17 [A.D. 395]). (Homilies on Philippians 10 [A.D. 402]). (Apostolic Constitutions 2:7:60 [A.D. 400]). (The Spirit and the Letter 24 [A.D. 412]).

[Ka-Bella]

I saved this for last because of your persistent claim that the Catholic Church has EVER taught that the Lord's day is not Sunday or that Christians have a duty to observe the Jewish Sabbath (a claim which you support only by quoting people claiming it but who cannot SHOW these supposedly contrary church teachings on the Sabbath. This, Daily Bread, is what we Lawyers call "hearsay" evidence, or in layman's tongue "rumours", not facts).

This is the teaching of a Pope in the 6th century:

[Gal. 5:2]" (Letters 13:1 [A.D. 597]).

I will find you COUNCIL documents that teach the same. So, pray tell, where are these teachings that claim that Saturday was to be kept? Do you have contrary quotations from early Christians or even from Popes or Councils that reject the quotes I have cited above and teach that Christians have a duty to observe Saturday? Please share. In other words, I am asking you to share the actual church teachings or sayings of the early church that claim that either 1) Christians observed the Jewish Sabbath or 2) That Christians had a duty to observe the Jewish Sabbath.

[vooke]

Kadame,
It is already Sabbath so don't expect Nuff Sed to respond since that will be working on Sabbath.

Adventists never hesitate to point you to history to 'prove' that Constantine 'changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday'. When out of the same history it is proven that Sabbath observation among the Gentiles has no precedence, they quickly retreat and insist that scripture is their sole authority...PLAIN DISHONEST

Next we delve into scriptures and the first argument is Jesus kept,Peter did,Paul observed....they conveniently overlook all other Jewish laws kept by these.....PLAIN DISHONEST/INCONSISTENCY

Then we have the most blatant fallacy of equivocation; they will flip definition of the LAW severally, arbitrally divide Law between, ceremonial,civil, eternal,universal.....

And all this backed by tons of circular arguments; 'show me where Sabbath was abrogated' among others quoted above

As I said, it is IMPOSSIBLE for any intelligent,logical and consistent truth seeker to remain an adventist

[GeeMail]

Ka-Bella,
The confusion is slowly emerging.

The comparison between Sabbath and circumcision is obfuscation at best. Circumcision is not in the Ten Commandments and is clearly spoken against by Paul in response to the Jerusalem council. Not so with the Sabbath.

The quotes you have given are useful (copied and pasted from http://www.catholic.com/tracts/sabbath-or-sunday). Notice that at various times different popes have called different days the Sabbath directly or by implication when convenient. Pope Gregory in your quote refers to Saturday as the Sabbath (...who when he comes will cause the Sabbath day as well as This is why Christians, called as they are to proclaim the liberation won by the blood of Christ, felt that they had the authority to transfer the meaning of the Sabbath to the day of the Resurrection .... For several centuries, Christians observed Sunday simply as a day of worship, without being able to give it the specific meaning of a Sabbath rest. the Sabbath rest day. More and more people work on Sundays as a consequence of the competitiveness imposed by a consumer society.http://loveandtruth.net/sunday-sabbath.html (notice the ridiculous claims he makes about the apostles being Sunday worshipers).

It began with claims that Sunday was celebrated because it was the day Christ rose from the grave, that Paul called for offerings on Sunday etc.
Then keeping the Sabbath (Saturday) by not doing secular work was anathema because it amounted to Judaizing (Laodecia council).
Then Sunday is now variously referred to as the Sabbath (Dies Domini claims the early church transferred the solemnity from Saturday), eighth day, Lord's day etc. At least the link above acknowledges Sunday was dedicated to sun worship.
Then "protestant churches" join the chorus calling for Sunday to be kept instead of Saturday (claims it was nailed to the cross etc).
Then Pope John Paul II now calls for Christians to rest on Sunday (avoid sports etc).
Will the Catholic church tell us which they want us to believe as the Sabbath between Sunday and Saturday?

[vooke]

Nuff Sed,
Is beastiality 'included' in the Ten Commandment?

Next,
It don't matter who/what calls Sunday Sabbath, Sunday remains Sunday and Saturday remains Saturday....the habit of Gentiles meeting regularly was borrowed from the Jews habit of meeting at synagogues (do I recall God commanding synagogues?) on Sabbath.

The MOST relevant day for Christians from the earliest was Sunday since Jesus resurrected on Sunday. Observing days is so irrelevant that it could not bother Paul, it is left to individuals

Colossians 2:16 (KJV)
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Romans 14:5-6 (KJV)
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks

And here we have literate people totally blind to this that they won't fire a microwave on Sunday because that is 'work'

Am sure in your groups you constantly seek affirmation that you are the 'remnant church' in a world full of apostasy

Ka-Bella,
The confusion is slowly emerging.

The comparison between Sabbath and circumcision is obfuscation at best. Circumcision is not in the Ten Commandments and is clearly spoken against by Paul in response to the Jerusalem council. Not so with the Sabbath.

The quotes you have given are useful (copied and pasted from http://www.catholic.com/tracts/sabbath-or-sunday). Notice that at various times different popes have called different days the Sabbath directly or by implication when convenient. Pope Gregory in your quote refers to Saturday as the Sabbath (...who when he comes will cause the Sabbath day as well as This is why Christians, called as they are to proclaim the liberation won by the blood of Christ, felt that they had the authority to transfer the meaning of the Sabbath to the day of the Resurrection .... For several centuries, Christians observed Sunday simply as a day of worship, without being able to give it the specific meaning of a Sabbath rest. the Sabbath rest day. More and more people work on Sundays as a consequence of the competitiveness imposed by a consumer society.http://loveandtruth.net/sunday-sabbath.html (notice the ridiculous claims he makes about the apostles being Sunday worshipers).

It began with claims that Sunday was celebrated because it was the day Christ rose from the grave, that Paul called for offerings on Sunday etc.
Then keeping the Sabbath (Saturday) by not doing secular work was anathema because it amounted to Judaizing (Laodecia council).
Then Sunday is now variously referred to as the Sabbath (Dies Domini claims the early church transferred the solemnity from Saturday), eighth day, Lord's day etc. At least the link above acknowledges Sunday was dedicated to sun worship.
Then "protestant churches" join the chorus calling for Sunday to be kept instead of Saturday (claims it was nailed to the cross etc).
Then Pope John Paul II now calls for Christians to rest on Sunday (avoid sports etc).
Will the Catholic church tell us which they want us to believe as the Sabbath between Sunday and Saturday?

[Ka-Bella]

@DailyBread, I see vooke was right about you. You have nothing to sa yin response, no actual history to quote. The best you can do is find an article in a MAGAZINE authored by people who apparently quite dislike both Popes John Paul II and Francis. Did I not mention hearsay before? Please read the FACTs I cited to you earlier, and tell me where it is you are getting your own history. So far I gather you are getting it from select magazines, shall I share with you other catholic publications that totally rubbish the stuff you seem to eat up like it's gospel? Again, find me the history that says Catholics taught/believed that the Jewish sabbath is a divine ordinance to be kept except when the church "changes" it.

Secondly, the "meaning" of the sabbath as a special day of observance for the things of God is of course present in Sunday. The timeless aspect of the commandment is that we must give to God our time too, in a formal/solemn manner. Tis an act of worship. God decreed that this was to be done in acknowledging the rest from the work of creation, remembering that the Lord created all. But like Tertullian said in one of those quotes you ignored above, neither Adam, nor his sons, nor Noah, nor Abraham and the other patriarchs kept/cared about the sabbath or Saturday. If this was a universal law, why did not God ask it of them? From them we know it was still wrong to kill or steal or commit adultery or worship other gods, or fail to worship God (sacrifice was there right from Adam himself), but where was the sabbath? Of course it was not a timeless law like the others. What was timeless about it was the duty to worship God both privately and in community, by setting aside our gifts of treasure, talent and time. But it does not have to be Saturday, my dear. For the Jews, God made it Saturday and about the rest from creation, for Christians, it became about the celebration of the new creation wrought by the redemption.

The "resting" that Catholics speak of is just a manner of speaking, somewhat copying the manner of the Jews. That does not mean Sunday is the Jewish sabbath. This idea of resting from work or making Sunday a holiday (a day you dont go to work) is understood to be an ecclessiastical law, a law MADE up by the church that can change and has changed and is ever changing. Why? Because God does not command it. Therefor, catholics dont have any strict laws about work on sunday either, apart from attending church and spending the day with your family (not the whole day in church from morning to evening) and avoiding workaholism. Rest for us does not mean not exerting effort, it means a change of activity, even vigorous activity squeezing sweat out of you is "rest" if spent in family bonding ways. Go have a barbecue, actually choma the meat yourself (and washa the moto!) Wrestle, hike! Have at it, just spend the day first with God and community/fellowship, including with your little church at home, which includes wife/husband and kiddos. Moreover, if you have no choice but to earn money on that day, then do so. Just make sure to make sometime to fellowship with others.My point? It is laughable to think that the Jewish Sabbath is what catholics are observing on Sunday. The only resemblance is that the day is set apart from the rest of the week, people gather together in fellowship and worship God in a more focused way than other days that are occuppied with lots of ordinary activity likeschool and work for most of the day.

Last, you say circumcision was not in the ten commandments. So? Was it not God who commanded it? Where was it written that onlythe ten commandments are divine commandments? Of course all laws in the Bible came from God. The question is: were they all timeless, binding Adam and the last human who will ever be borm at the end of time? Were they all universal, binding both Jews and Gentiles? Of course you dont believe so, because you dont obey all 600 + laws of the Torah. Don't worry, you're in good company. Neither did Abraham. The question is why you think Christians are bound to obey a law that only came up when God made a covenant with the Jews through Moses??? Are you a Jew, Daily Bread? Are you a party to that covenant? If Abraham did not rest on Saturday, why MUST I, a Gusii African woman without the slightest biological connection to Abrahams' offspring, except by my faith in Christ? Who did God command to rest on Saturday except the twelve tribes of Israel, are you among them?

I am a party to the New covenant of Jesus Christ, which I entered not by circumcision or birth from a Jewish parent, but by baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I am maintained there by belief in Jesus. Please show me where Sabbath was made a term of this new covenant.If I recall, Jesus summarized the terms of this New (and EVERLASTING) covenant thus: Believe me (Jesus) and be baptized in my name and my father's name, Love God and your neigbour, dont hate your enemy, dont seek vengeance, be quick to forgive, dont practice sexual immorality, be generous to the poor, trust God to provide all you need and approach him without fear but with the trust and simplicity of a child, try not to judge others, give your time and talent and treasure to building up God's kingdom on earth and also, fellowship with others instead of being individualist. Hizo zingine, you are citing the wrong contract, my dear. For the other one, you are consulting Moses instead of Jesus,when Moses' contract was a place holder for the real one that will never end, that is for all the offspring of Adam.