Author Topic: Are Jehova witnesses a cult or christians?  (Read 28553 times)

Offline GeeMail

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2722
  • Reputation: 18465
Re: Are Jehova witnesses a cult or christians?
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2014, 03:04:37 PM »
Voke you need to apologize. I leave it to your conscience.

This is the problem with indoctrination. You are showed clear examples of failed prophecies and you flash 3 more that came to pass. You are shown idiotic advice and you flash to other seemingly appropriate advice. And now you are flashing the 'un-educated' card

She was not a journalist but a prophet, that's why we DEMAND more from her over and above the BS she was spewing to idiots around her.

She extensively plagiarized. Btw, she has absolutely nothing on Joseph Smith of Mormons when it comes to creativity. Creativity does not turn a charlatan into a man of God am sorry to remind you. You need to ask yourself HOW MUCH of what she purported to share as advice was FREELY available during her time. There is absolutely NOTHING novel in her advice, the 'good advice' that is ignoring the retRded counsel she felt she had to share

So how do you suppose an uneducated woman of her time would know that infected meat was causing TB and cancer (both of which medical science is now confirming)? You are splitting hairs rather than simply accepting you were mistaken to call Ellen G. White the names you did. You need to apologize instead.

You could as well argue that the protestantism she knew then was not the one we know today so her prophecy that Protestants would clasp hands with Catholicism was also
Celebratory violence: 2017 crime invented to justify killings to prevent Raila from becoming PORK. http://www.nipate.com/download/file.php?id=4244

Offline vooke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 5985
  • Reputation: 8906
Re: Are Jehova witnesses a cult or christians?
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2014, 03:16:18 PM »
It's vooke not Voke. Please!

I will apologize but you need to show me what am apologizing about.
I never cooked those mindless juvenile false prophecies nor the dumb excuses such as conditional, I simply used my brains to point to obvious idiocy of mistaking fools for God's prophets

My heart bleeds for the extensive indoctrination you are exhibiting and which you will(if you haven't) transfer to your kids. They read to them Great Controversy every Saturday in Sabbath schools. You are misleading innocent ones

Voke you need to apologize. I leave it to your conscience.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline mya88

  • Moderator
  • Mega superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 399
  • Reputation: 2095
Re: Are Jehova witnesses a cult or christians?
« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2014, 03:25:02 PM »

Lets not get ahead of ourselves. Medical science has never confirmed that TB and cancers are spread from eating contaminated meat. Negro'es please,

Mya88 what do you make of the quoted studies and statements in red? Voke cited the quote from Ellen G. White's Ministry of Healing as proof that she is "a stupid prick." I humbly submit that she was way, way ahead of her time. That she wrote what she did about meat, TB, cancer, tobacco etc without medical training let alone proper formal schooling tells a lot about her inspiration.
Again, we may not like the pioneers of certain churches, but that does not justify calling them "stupid pricks" without proof or substantiation. Voke should apologize.

DB, The last bit of your statement sums it up "there are no cases of people contracting TB or even cancer from infcted meat"....the rest is mere speculation. vooke has no moral authority to call anybody names. That is the biggest problem I have with these hollier than thou christians who arrogate themselves the duty of jury and judge at the same time to other beliefs system that do not fit into thiers. It is enough to disagree and proceed by telling us why you disgaree, but to then go ahead and call someone a "stupid prick" is idiotic, childish and doesnt add anything to the conversation. That is why atheism is thriving....just look at the way so called christians are intolerable. You should give him the same satisfaction by mispelling his moniker.
"We must be the change we wish to see" - Mahatma Ghandi

Offline GeeMail

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2722
  • Reputation: 18465
Re: Are Jehova witnesses a cult or christians?
« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2014, 03:46:02 PM »
Thank you Mya88. Your response is appreciated.
Celebratory violence: 2017 crime invented to justify killings to prevent Raila from becoming PORK. http://www.nipate.com/download/file.php?id=4244

Offline kadame

  • VIP
  • Mega superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 312
  • Reputation: 1658
Re: Are Jehova witnesses a cult or christians?
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2014, 04:43:48 PM »
Waaah! Two minutes ago this thread had no responses, eish! 43! :D

Well, one church's orthodoxy is another church's heresy, but personally, when I think cult, people like David Koresh, Charles Manson, Jim Jones float to mind. That's why i'm reluctant to call JW's a cult despite their Arian theology. Though I should put a disclaimer and say that I have no personal experience with them. I personally have never been to a JW's church, though a few have knocked on our door, sometimes it led to interesting conversations. The closest person to me who has been a member is one of my best friends' mom, back when I was in primo. She went for a month and quit and went back to her old church, which was one of the regular Protestant churches. So I really don't know anything about them beyond their Arian beliefs about Jesus and God and their opposition to blood transfusions. I do know SDAs very well, though. I've been to SDA church in my early teens, when my mom made me go. SDAs also been frequenting our home every other Saturday after church since forever because a good chunk of my family is SDA, so I have a lot of experience with them, about as much as I do with Evangelicals with whom I schooled and "got saved" at least more than once, lol! I miss challenge weekend. I have never thought of SDAs as a cult. @vooke, I think a lot of us say "cult" when we mean "wrong." The wronger we think they are, the more cultish they seem to us. I say all this with the disclaimer that I honestly don't know much about JW's in particular.
Just my 0.02 Kshs. wave  ;)

Offline mya88

  • Moderator
  • Mega superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 399
  • Reputation: 2095
Re: Are Jehova witnesses a cult or christians?
« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2014, 05:10:26 PM »
I tended to give JW a wide birth mostly because of hearsay from others and the fact that some really nag. I worked with one and I discovered they don't celebrate any holidays, birthdays, christmas et cetera and wondered.......I also know another whose family refused life sustaining measures ie blood transfusion that could have saved his life but instead they watched him die........ so one day I picked up one of their chronicles and started reading and there it was in black and white........ it says Jesus was born on October or something like that....Lets just say I stopped reading at that point. So I do find their teachings somewhat strange.
"We must be the change we wish to see" - Mahatma Ghandi

Offline RVtitem

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 840
  • Reputation: 1328
Re: Are Jehova witnesses a cult or christians?
« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2014, 05:39:47 PM »
I tended to give JW a wide birth mostly because of hearsay from others and the fact that some really nag. I worked with one and I discovered they don't celebrate any holidays, birthdays, christmas et cetera and wondered.......I also know another whose family refused life sustaining measures ie blood transfusion that could have saved his life but instead they watched him die........ so one day I picked up one of their chronicles and started reading and there it was in black and white........ it says Jesus was born on October or something like that....Lets just say I stopped reading at that point. So I do find their teachings somewhat strange.

After attending one service and afterwards watched JW for dummies videos. I concur that they have got some strange traditions. It was strange that all male attendants wore suits and none of the ladies was in trousers/miniskirts. I felt like an alien amidst them.

But on the other hand, I think they print out indoctrination books more any other group of people.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8784
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: Are Jehova witnesses a cult or christians?
« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2014, 05:41:42 PM »

I tended to give JW a wide birth mostly because of hearsay from others and the fact that some really nag. I worked with one and I discovered they don't celebrate any holidays, birthdays, christmas et cetera and wondered.......I also know another whose family refused life sustaining measures ie blood transfusion that could have saved his life but instead they watched him die........ so one day I picked up one of their chronicles and started reading and there it was in black and white........ it says Jesus was born on October or something like that....Lets just say I stopped reading at that point. So I do find their teachings somewhat strange.
Interesting.  I just got my copies of watchtower, God's Kingdom and what it means to you.  What is true success? from an old couple that likes to stop by and chat by the door yesterday.  They seem like a nice couple.  They say they pray for me.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline kadame

  • VIP
  • Mega superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 312
  • Reputation: 1658
Re: Are Jehova witnesses a cult or christians?
« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2014, 05:43:55 PM »
I tended to give JW a wide birth mostly because of hearsay from others and the fact that some really nag. I worked with one and I discovered they don't celebrate any holidays, birthdays, christmas et cetera and wondered.......I also know another whose family refused life sustaining measures ie blood transfusion that could have saved his life but instead they watched him die........ so one day I picked up one of their chronicles and started reading and there it was in black and white........ it says Jesus was born on October or something like that....Lets just say I stopped reading at that point. So I do find their teachings somewhat strange.

Mya, so do JWs celebrate "Christmas" in October or as you say, not at all? Never heard that one before, October. Interesting, though. My understanding was that Jesus' actual date of Birth remains unknown. The early Christians disagreed all over the place over the date, eventually they went with Hippolytus' calculation of 9 months from March 25th.

@RVtitem, that thing about suits. :D The JWs who come by our door once in a while, they always dressed in clean suits, no matter which day it is.
Just my 0.02 Kshs. wave  ;)

Offline vooke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 5985
  • Reputation: 8906
Re: Are Jehova witnesses a cult or christians?
« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2014, 06:42:37 PM »
SDAs call Catholicism the Beast and if you have a modicum knowledge of Revelation, there is no bigger insult than calling anybody the Beast.
They are embarrassed of disclosing this BTW.

Ellen G White was stupid. She thought meat infected with 'cancer germs' transmit cancer. She made countless other outrageous claims including demons possessing you for drinking coffee or something. She was a serial wacko. SDAs prop her up as their prophet and authority on MOST of their doctrines. While I have tried my best to point out to outright errors and uneducated statements she made (Pat Robertson claimed towels in kenia give Aids), DB reacted as if on cue by showing others which were factual. That's indoctrination, defending your Prophet at all costs.

Every reference I have used on her has SOLID facts behind it

DB, The last bit of your statement sums it up "there are no cases of people contracting TB or even cancer from infcted meat"....the rest is mere speculation. vooke has no moral authority to call anybody names. That is the biggest problem I have with these hollier than thou christians who arrogate themselves the duty of jury and judge at the same time to other beliefs system that do not fit into thiers. It is enough to disagree and proceed by telling us why you disgaree, but to then go ahead and call someone a "stupid prick" is idiotic, childish and doesnt add anything to the conversation. That is why atheism is thriving....just look at the way so called christians are intolerable. You should give him the same satisfaction by mispelling his moniker.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline kadame

  • VIP
  • Mega superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 312
  • Reputation: 1658
Re: Are Jehova witnesses a cult or christians?
« Reply #50 on: November 03, 2014, 06:47:10 PM »


Ellen G White was stupid. She thought meat infected with 'cancer germs' transmit cancer. She made countless other outrageous claims including demons possessing you for drinking coffee or something. She was a serial wacko. SDAs prop her up as their prophet and authority on MOST of their doctrines.
Is this why SDAs are vegetarian (not all)? Some SDAs don't take coffee, tea, Coke, chocolate or any stimulant, and meat too. They use Soya in milk instead. But some take stimulants, so I don't know if it is a rule.
Just my 0.02 Kshs. wave  ;)

Offline vooke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 5985
  • Reputation: 8906
Re: Are Jehova witnesses a cult or christians?
« Reply #51 on: November 03, 2014, 06:50:34 PM »
They don't celebrate Easter,lent, birthdays,Christmas or any Christian feast. They claim Jesus ONLY commanded us to 'do this in my rembrance' communion that is

They also insist that Jesus was crucified on a STAKE not cross

They are meticulous record keepers of their Winessing. they clock manhours spent out there. Theirs basically is WORK hard to earn your salvation

They like Adventists believe in soul sleep

They are anhilationist..the dead will burn and dissipate in hell not forever.

Jesus is not God but a god and He is archangel Mike

Heaven is reserved for 144,000 who are the ONLY Spirit filled in the entire earth. They teach that this number was filled in 1914 bla de bla

Holy Spirit is not a Person but an 'it' wind,breath....

Blood transfusion is EQUIVALENT to eating blood which was forbidden in Acts 15 jerusalem Council. But this teaching has been revised gradually. Plasma transfusion is cook, red blood cells transfusion is a no no

Mya, so do JWs celebrate "Christmas" in October or as you say, not at all? Never heard that one before, October. Interesting, though. My understanding was that Jesus' actual date of Birth remains unknown. The early Christians disagreed all over the place over the date, eventually they went with Hippolytus' calculation of 9 months from March 25th.

@RVtitem, that thing about suits. :D The JWs who come by our door once in a while, they always dressed in clean suits, no matter which day it is.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline vooke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 5985
  • Reputation: 8906
Re: Are Jehova witnesses a cult or christians?
« Reply #52 on: November 03, 2014, 06:55:49 PM »
Cults are extremely controlling
White churned out some harsh dietary regimes.
I have already shared on how she detested medical science. I hope Daily Bread can deliver at home and NEVER inject her kids with vaccine

Now,  belief in Ellen White as a true prophet is one of their fundamental beliefs..This is not negotiable, that's why the otherwise calm and collected DB is having fits because I touched her goD
You may want to start with White Lie expose here
http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/egw17.htm

Is this why SDAs are vegetarian (not all)? Some SDAs don't take coffee, tea, Coke, chocolate or any stimulant, and meat too. They use Soya in milk instead. But some take stimulants, so I don't know if it is a rule.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline kadame

  • VIP
  • Mega superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 312
  • Reputation: 1658
Re: Are Jehova witnesses a cult or christians?
« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2014, 09:46:26 AM »
vooke, it's possible it may have started as a cult. After a certain point in time, especially after the leader has gone, and after a certain "mass" or size is reached, I really don't think it's possible for it to continue as such anymore, at least as far as I understand "cult". That type of absolute control exercised by the likes of Manson, Jones, Koresh etc over a few hundred or a few thousand people is not easy to exercise over a large congregation spread out everywhere, especially once the leader is dead, the one who attracted that loyalty in the first place. Many groups disappear with the death of the leader, while others adapt and somehow reorganize.

In fact many religions started out as something of a cult centered on a sacred figure that grew mainstream over time with increased numbers and diversification of membership, whether that increase was achieved through the attractiveness of the message or even by force. Not necessarily that they all exercised that type of control exercised by the likes of Jones or other ancient religious leaders, many were just a group of people who believed that somebody taught truth. Jesus seemed not to have bothered at least during his life, to build a community around him or even to write anything. He was very simple, though startling in his claims, Buddha was a little bit the same way too. But to the Jews, Christianity was what they would've called a cult (of Jesus of Nazareth) if they had our vocabulary. They used much worse descriptors instead, according to the language of the time. :D Islam may be considered the cult of Muhammad, and Buddhism the cult of Buddha. Hinduism is a conglomeration of the cults of various Hindu sages over the ages, whose wisdom/teaching was recorded in the Vedas, mixed with the natural paganism that existed all over the ancient world (the lower form, or the Hinduism of the masses, that is).

But in general, true Cults like Mungiki are IMHO simply not sustainable in the long run, Historically, and over large congregations. They are like criminal gangs in the way they operate, was seeing this story of a gang of bikers in the USA, a murderous group that lived by the absolute word of one guy whose name escapes me at the moment. They didn't have any theistic beliefs, but to me they looked like a cult nonetheless, complete with a prophet.  Even the Mormon church cannot IMO be called a cult today, though I do not think they are Christian but a fresh new religion with roots in Christianity, because they are essentially polytheists (belief in many separate gods) and these gods have material/physical bodies like the ancient Greek gods, Zeus, Venus and the rest. Mormons, for example, believe God had sex with Mary to birth Jesus. Back to the cults: These days many cults show up among Koreans and also in Mormon-country (Utah, USA) for some strange reason. The ones in Korea tend to establish worship of the prophet/founder as God in human flesh, while the ones in Utah seem to have a thing for all children and girls in the group being offered in marriage to the prophet, from very young ages, so he has pick of hundreds or tens of them depending on the size of the group.
Just my 0.02 Kshs. wave  ;)

Offline vooke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 5985
  • Reputation: 8906
Re: Are Jehova witnesses a cult or christians?
« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2014, 04:30:13 PM »
Good points.
Recall Paul wondering why some claimed to follow Paul, Apollos or Cephas?
I believe unique skills such as oratorical,charisma, intelligence, education,knowledge of scriptures, prophecy, healing and such ATTRACTS people around you. It is not intentional but t happens any way. So here we have primitive Christians gravitating towards these powerful men and Paul noticed it. He was rebuking them for this. This is the first step towards cults

The next step is pride sets in and these individuals certainly feel greater and better than everyone else.

The third step is they start exploiting the immense trust. They increasingly start controlling their followers. The usual tactics such as fear,blackmail,isolation and so forth are used. At this stage, there is usually an urgency to increase whatever drew men to them. here is where miracles and prophecies are faked, scriptures are twisted. It is like a drug

After this point, some followers would readily kill for their prophet. The prophet is ALWAYS right. They actually invent stuff to explain away his/her failures. Very defensive. They have acquired a we-vs-them mentality, you are either with them or lost.

From all this, the quickest test of a cult for me is their AUTHORITY. It is ALWAYS some personality or institution. I know at some point all we had were the apostles witness testimonies. But now we have the scriptures. This is closer to Catholicism and I hope you don't take offence. The idea of a Central Authority on doctrine is impractical, the church is too big for this. And it has proven vulnerable to politics, sin and other human weaknesses. Authority is shared through immense literature that is seldom questioned..sermons,books,magazines.....

The next test is EXCLUSIVITY. Am no universalist who believes EVERYONE will be saved somewhat and all sincerity leads to God. Some people, MANY will perish. What I mean by this test is groups that are quick to elevate themselves onto a pedestal and look down on everyone else as wrong are most likely cults. We have Branhams in evangelical circles, followers of William Branham. They are basically headless just reliving the man's sermons and books (sound familiar?). I have heard that Christ Embassy members are discouraged from reading books not penned by Oyakhilome!

The second last test is CONTROL. How much control does a group exert over its member? In extremes, it goes down to how often married members have sex, whom to marry, what to eat, what to wear.....there is a general fear of admitting control because they would look weak. But they dare not break these rules

The last test is DOCTRINE. There will be some specific beliefs peculiar to a group; they don't shake hands, never drink coffee, transfusion....these idionsyncrasies provide some form of IDENTITY and are used to distinguish the group and enforce the them vs us mentality. Note the doctrines are derived from their authority

Of course nobody will admit to belonging to a cult. A pastor joked that the best definition of a heretik is somebody who believes what you don't. if you belong to a group, it is up to you to dig hard and test the veracity of their teachings from scriptures. A thorough examination of the group's history is in order. Inconsistencies in a group's teachings over the years is a red flag

vooke, it's possible it may have started as a cult. After a certain point in time, especially after the leader has gone, and after a certain "mass" or size is reached, I really don't think it's possible for it to continue as such anymore, at least as far as I understand "cult". That type of absolute control exercised by the likes of Manson, Jones, Koresh etc over a few hundred or a few thousand people is not easy to exercise over a large congregation spread out everywhere, especially once the leader is dead, the one who attracted that loyalty in the first place. Many groups disappear with the death of the leader, while others adapt and somehow reorganize.

In fact many religions started out as something of a cult centered on a sacred figure that grew mainstream over time with increased numbers and diversification of membership, whether that increase was achieved through the attractiveness of the message or even by force. Not necessarily that they all exercised that type of control exercised by the likes of Jones or other ancient religious leaders, many were just a group of people who believed that somebody taught truth. Jesus seemed not to have bothered at least during his life, to build a community around him or even to write anything. He was very simple, though startling in his claims, Buddha was a little bit the same way too. But to the Jews, Christianity was what they would've called a cult (of Jesus of Nazareth) if they had our vocabulary. They used much worse descriptors instead, according to the language of the time. :D Islam may be considered the cult of Muhammad, and Buddhism the cult of Buddha. Hinduism is a conglomeration of the cults of various Hindu sages over the ages, whose wisdom/teaching was recorded in the Vedas, mixed with the natural paganism that existed all over the ancient world (the lower form, or the Hinduism of the masses, that is).

But in general, true Cults like Mungiki are IMHO simply not sustainable in the long run, Historically, and over large congregations. They are like criminal gangs in the way they operate, was seeing this story of a gang of bikers in the USA, a murderous group that lived by the absolute word of one guy whose name escapes me at the moment. They didn't have any theistic beliefs, but to me they looked like a cult nonetheless, complete with a prophet.  Even the Mormon church cannot IMO be called a cult today, though I do not think they are Christian but a fresh new religion with roots in Christianity, because they are essentially polytheists (belief in many separate gods) and these gods have material/physical bodies like the ancient Greek gods, Zeus, Venus and the rest. Mormons, for example, believe God had sex with Mary to birth Jesus. Back to the cults: These days many cults show up among Koreans and also in Mormon-country (Utah, USA) for some strange reason. The ones in Korea tend to establish worship of the prophet/founder as God in human flesh, while the ones in Utah seem to have a thing for all children and girls in the group being offered in marriage to the prophet, from very young ages, so he has pick of hundreds or tens of them depending on the size of the group.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline kadame

  • VIP
  • Mega superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 312
  • Reputation: 1658
Re: Are Jehova witnesses a cult or christians?
« Reply #55 on: November 04, 2014, 06:08:06 PM »
vooke, I agree with most of what you say, but of course disagree on that "authority" test, not on it in principle but what you understand it to mean--the kind of authority involved in cults. This is why I questioned whether people just use "cult" to refer to what they consider to be heresy. In essence, a cult is anything not protestant--This is what this test would imply. But that is not what a cult is. If we defined a cult according to how far they deviated from our own orthodoxy, basically all protestant groups, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, would be "cults" from the point of view of Catholics or vice versa for any other group. Cults from how the word is used in common parlance refers to a group in which a charismatic figure exercises extreme psychological manipulation (brainwashing) over members so that its members are completely isolated from the rest of regular society and are not able to question this leader at all. The "authority" is something immediate/direct, they cannot test it under an independent body of truth, that is, nobody knows the truth except the leader, no one can access it except through that leader. That is something radically different from the protestant/catholic disagreements on the relationship of truth, tradition, scripture and church. The authority exercised by a cult leader can only be comparable to that of religious founders themselves, the source of truth (for the group). Which is why for Christians, that would be Jesus, for Muslims, it would be Mohammed. This is the authority the member cannot question. Question it against what? They are the fountain of truth.

Ultimately ALL religions besides paganism--which starts "naturally", or derived from a culture--all religions with any beginning point in History necessarily derive their authority from an individual who knew/discovered (or WAS) "the truth", which is why they are not questioned, you either believe them or you don't. The Pope is constantly getting in trouble in the church if he even whispers something catholics think deviates from the faith, that is not what a cult-leader looks like. :D A cult-leader IS the faith. You cannot accuse him of being wrong---accuse him based on what, when he himself is the definition of what is true? That's why CS Lewis said Jesus was either Lord, Liar or Lunatic. And the same applies for other founders, because the claim of authority rests on them personally, it does not go beyond them. The new cults replicate the same for their followers. The reason they can exercise that extreme control is because nothing they say can be questioned.

Just my 0.02 Kshs. wave  ;)

Offline kadame

  • VIP
  • Mega superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 312
  • Reputation: 1658
Re: Are Jehova witnesses a cult or christians?
« Reply #56 on: November 04, 2014, 06:13:56 PM »
At some point SDAs placed Ellen G. White's writings to be at par with scripture but they don't any more. And even if they did, they would simply be wrong, not a cult. I believe she is wrong and they are wrong in some of their beliefs, but that is no cult. There is no brainwashing/controlling going on there beyond what goes on in religions in general. Virulently anti-Catholic and stubborn followers of their interpretations, yes, but not a cult. If you went to TV station and accused them of being a cult people would think you are referring to a group like the doomsday cult, that lives in their own strange world. If they found out you only mean a group that you consider heretical, they would consider your claim quite misleading because "cult" is being used to define "heresy" rather than what anybody else regardless of religion would recognize as a cult.

If you look at what experts who specialize in rescuing people from cults think, the control and isolation would be key, which is effected through extreme secrecy too. There are Catholic groups I respect that I consider cultish (but will not mention here out of respect for them because of all the good they have done for me :D), but the Church? Naaah. Anything you want to know about catholic beliefs can be known at the click of a button, you don't need to be an insider. You don't need anything special to join, nor is it difficult to leave if you don't want to be catholic, the church is a public kiosk, anybody can walk in and out at anytime. In truth, protestant churches exercise much more control over their members than catholics with the church--One of the reasons catholics are generally so lax/lukewarm in faith. There is nothing like "lukewarm" in a cult. :D You are in or you are out.

Cults are like an abusive relationship where the victim is not just one person but a whole group, the leader is exactly like how a narcissistic or psychopathic boyfriend behaves except his net is cast wider (groups, not one person), (which is why I'm convinced Esther Arunga was the victim of a cult) beyond this they are indistinguishable from what is called "religion". Religions make a claim to some form of exclusivity or truth, otherwise, they would not exist. Hinduism is the only religion I know about that claims to be true while accepting others as true as well, :D. In ecumenism, it is said they make inter-religious dialogue quite difficult because of this, opposite from Muslims who make inter-religious dialogue difficult for the opposite reason. Neither of those are cults. I consider Al-Qaeeda a cult, Isis, even Wahabis, but Islam itself?  Not a cult. Shiah Islam recognizes the authorities of the Ayatollah's, Sunnis reject them, they follow the 4 imams only, Jews continue their old Sanhedrin through the rabbinical school whose traditions are recorded in the Talmud and the Mishnah (earlier). None of these are cults. But there ARE Jewish cults that would feel quite at home with the likes of Al-Qeeda were it not for the "Islam" label, IMHO. :D
Just my 0.02 Kshs. wave  ;)

Offline vooke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 5985
  • Reputation: 8906
Re: Are Jehova witnesses a cult or christians?
« Reply #57 on: November 04, 2014, 07:57:28 PM »

Authority means doctrinal source or basis and conduct. The problem with all the points I shared is you will find them in just about ANY group you can think of. So it's all a matter of degree. Strong dependence on an individual/institution for doctrine is a red flag for me.

And no, it is not a Catholic vs the rest, like I told you, there are some evangelical cults. Owuor I rank him here. Never thought about him any more than another evangelist until I heard from his ardent follower that he is Malachi 4 Elijah,won't die but will be ruptured when Christ returns, and I noticed a tendency among his followers to separate themselves from other Christians
vooke, I agree with most of what you say, but of course disagree on that "authority" test, not on it in principle but what you understand it to mean--the kind of authority involved in cults. This is why I questioned whether people just use "cult" to refer to what they consider to be heresy. In essence, a cult is anything not protestant--This is what this test would imply. But that is not what a cult is. If we defined a cult according to how far they deviated from our own orthodoxy, basically all protestant groups, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, would be "cults" from the point of view of Catholics or vice versa for any other group. Cults from how the word is used in common parlance refers to a group in which a charismatic figure exercises extreme psychological manipulation (brainwashing) over members so that its members are completely isolated from the rest of regular society and are not able to question this leader at all. The "authority" is something immediate/direct, they cannot test it under an independent body of truth, that is, nobody knows the truth except the leader, no one can access it except through that leader. That is something radically different from the protestant/catholic disagreements on the relationship of truth, tradition, scripture and church. The authority exercised by a cult leader can only be comparable to that of religious founders themselves, the source of truth (for the group). Which is why for Christians, that would be Jesus, for Muslims, it would be Mohammed. This is the authority the member cannot question. Question it against what? They are the fountain of truth.

Ultimately ALL religions besides paganism--which starts "naturally", or derived from a culture--all religions with any beginning point in History necessarily derive their authority from an individual who knew/discovered (or WAS) "the truth", which is why they are not questioned, you either believe them or you don't. The Pope is constantly getting in trouble in the church if he even whispers something catholics think deviates from the faith, that is not what a cult-leader looks like. :D A cult-leader IS the faith. You cannot accuse him of being wrong---accuse him based on what, when he himself is the definition of what is true? That's why CS Lewis said Jesus was either Lord, Liar or Lunatic. And the same applies for other founders, because the claim of authority rests on them personally, it does not go beyond them. The new cults replicate the same for their followers. The reason they can exercise that extreme control is because nothing they say can be questioned.


2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline kadame

  • VIP
  • Mega superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 312
  • Reputation: 1658
Re: Are Jehova witnesses a cult or christians?
« Reply #58 on: November 04, 2014, 08:15:17 PM »
Ok, thanks for the info. I agree cult and religion are on a spectrum. Cult is one extreme end. I love Jesus because to me, when I read the Gospels, it's clear I am not reading the life of one of the many charlatans there were and will be in Human History, who made groups and religions that clearly exist for the benefit of that founder. Jesus was no control freak. He was a teacher of Truth and love. He is no mad man (lunatic) nor liar. There's sublime truth and love flowing from his hair to his finger tips. You will not find anything equivalent in other claimants of ultimate authority, that is my opinion. If his was a cult then I'm proudly and happily a member of the cult of Jesus of Nazareth. :D He warned of other false Christ, and I believe he referred to cult leaders or people claiming to be bringing a new revelation after him. If someone says they are a Prophet, then they cannot claim some brand new revelation to justify some new movement, that would be like starting a new religion based on a different authority, like Jesus did with Judaism. Since Christians believe Jesus was the full and complete revelation of God, we do not accept new prophets and revelations apart from things that are not revelation, like there are people who have a gift of prophecy but that means to tell what will happen like lets say next year or something. If the "prophecy" refers to some new revelation like sijui Prophet Elijah, or like Rastafarians claim that is a new incarnation of Jesus, then even if I don't call them all a cult, I certainly consider them a break from the old religion as opposed to just another sect, kinda like a religion within a religion like happened with Jesus and Judaism.
Just my 0.02 Kshs. wave  ;)