Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: RV Pundit on August 11, 2020, 06:57:59 PM
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Sen. Gideon K. Moi (Baringo)
Sen. Samuel Poghisio (West Pokot)
Sen. Margaret Kamar (Uasin Gishu)
Sen. Samson Cherargei (Nandi)
Sen. Michael Mbito (Trans Nzioa)
Sen. Kipchumba Murkomen (Elgeyo Marakwet)
Sen. Aaron Cheruiyot (Kericho)
Sen. Christopher Langat (Bomet)
Sen. Sakaja Pkosgei (Nairobi)
Narok/Nakuru are next -
11 ouf 47 is nearly 25% of kenya
Nearest Kikuyus are just 7 senators now. Luhyas are just 4 senators. Luos are 4 senators. Kamba 3 senators.
The rest have 2 or 1 senators.
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Sen. Gideon K. Moi (Baringo)
Sen. Samuel Poghisio (West Pokot)
Sen. Margaret Kamar (Uasin Gishu)
Sen. Samson Cherargei (Nandi)
Sen. Michael Mbito (Trans Nzioa)
Sen. Kipchumba Murkomen (Elgeyo Marakwet)
Sen. Aaron Cheruiyot (Kericho)
Sen. Christopher Langat (Bomet)
Sen. Sakaja Pkosgei (Nairobi)
Narok/Nakuru are next -
11 ouf 47 is nearly 25% of kenya
Nearest Kikuyus are just 7 senators now. Luhyas are just 4 senators. Luos are 4 senators. Kamba 3 senators.
The rest have 2 or 1 senators.
So you group Kalenjin together and then in Mt Kenya you only drop name Kikuyu.
You also go ahead and Group Nairobi as a Kalenjin County.
You know i n 2013 ams 2017 UhuRuto knew they were going to win by virtue of numbers , their worry was senate and governors. Instead of them sitting preetry and alluding to the numbers like you have done , they startegized how to win North Eastern in as much as voters numbers there cannot be compared to Rift Valley and My Kenya , the senator numbers and Governor numbers are substantial and they can affirm a win. Thats How they were able to convince the world they won both elections unlike kibaki in 2007 when he lost the propaganda war and ODM used Mp numbers to tell the world Kibaki didnt win.
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Sen. Gideon K. Moi (Baringo)
Sen. Samuel Poghisio (West Pokot)
Sen. Margaret Kamar (Uasin Gishu)
Sen. Samson Cherargei (Nandi)
Sen. Michael Mbito (Trans Nzioa)
Sen. Kipchumba Murkomen (Elgeyo Marakwet)
Sen. Aaron Cheruiyot (Kericho)
Sen. Christopher Langat (Bomet)
Sen. Sakaja Pkosgei (Nairobi)
Narok/Nakuru are next -
11 ouf 47 is nearly 25% of kenya
Nearest Kikuyus are just 7 senators now. Luhyas are just 4 senators. Luos are 4 senators. Kamba 3 senators.
The rest have 2 or 1 senators.
So you group Kalenjin together and then in Mt Kenya you only drop name Kikuyu.
You also go ahead and Group Nairobi as a Kalenjin County.
You know i n 2013 ams 2017 UhuRuto knew they were going to win by virtue of numbers , their worry was senate and governors. Instead of them sitting preetry and alluding to the numbers like you have done , they startegized how to win North Eastern in as much as voters numbers there cannot be compared to Rift Valley and My Kenya , the senator numbers and Governor numbers are substantial and they can affirm a win. Thats How they were able to convince the world they won both elections unlike kibaki in 2007 when he lost the propaganda war and ODM used Mp numbers to tell the world Kibaki didnt win.
Was wondering the same, pundits get carried away at times, if you mention kalenjin, mijikenda or luhya then you have to mention mt.kenya in its entirety, furthermore GEMA I would even think are more closer than all the rest kabila by far. Eti Sakaja is a kaleo :) didn't know till now. scrabbing the bottom pundit? Kalenjin need to create a cohesive machinery apart from what state can provide i.e in businesses and other sectors in order to punch way above what they're doing now.
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My Kenya is not tribe..first find a name.Gema is better than calling yourself a mountain.Maybe call yourself metumi or something.kalenjin is a tribe.At least 1.5m people last census identified themselves thus.. another 5 million by their subtribe. This is really nothing about 2022...I just saw Facebook post on how kalenjin senator voted and I thought we got a pretty decent number.
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I suspect the numbers are a result of over-representation of less populated counties in the Senate. It reminds me a bit of the US system which has resulted in small rural states(smaller than cities in many blue states) holding back progress for the entire country.
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I suspect the numbers are a result of over-representation of less populated counties in the Senate. It reminds me a bit of the US system which has resulted in small rural states(smaller than cities in many blue states) holding back progress for the entire country.
Bitmask, isn't it how the founders intended it to be though? It prevents a tyranny of the majority and big states. It is democratic. Anything that checks the excesses of both sides is good. The dirt bag left shouldn't set the agenda for the rest of the country. Likewise Neo Nazis should be limited to few states and not dictate to the rest of the country.
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I suspect the numbers are a result of over-representation of less populated counties in the Senate. It reminds me a bit of the US system which has resulted in small rural states(smaller than cities in many blue states) holding back progress for the entire country.
Bitmask, isn't it how the founders intended it to be though? It prevents a tyranny of the majority and big states. It is democratic. Anything that checks the excesses of both sides is good. The dirt bag left shouldn't set the agenda for the rest of the country. Likewise Neo Nazis should be limited to few states and not dictate to the rest of the country.
I used to think that way too. I later realized it was just a convenient misrepresentation mostly by the right, but also ignorant neutrals, about the original intentions. It works for them and they will rationalize it until it doesn't. If you look at the Federalist papers, the meaning of majority is not the same as population. Majority in that context meant the unwashed masses. It was reference to class and not population.
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My Kenya is not tribe..first find a name.Gema is better than calling yourself a mountain.Maybe call yourself metumi or something.kalenjin is a tribe.At least 1.5m people last census identified themselves thus.. another 5 million by their subtribe. This is really nothing about 2022...I just saw Facebook post on how kalenjin senator voted and I thought we got a pretty decent number.
In comparison to North Eastern you dont have a decent number. You have a total of 8 and 6 Jubilee 2 K.AN.U. for a population of how many ? now compare that with North Eastern , they have 6 of them and all in Jubilee
Tana-River Golich Juma Wario JP Jubilee
Garissa Yusuf Haji JP Jubilee
Wajir Abdullahi Ibrahim Ali JP Jubilee
Mandera Mohamed Maalim Mahamud JP Jubilee
Marsabit Godana Hargura JP
Isiolo Adan Dullo Fatuma PDR Jubilee
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What tribe is that? North Eastern. You're mixing Somalis, Boranas, Ormas and all the them Cushite's. Kalenjin elected senators are 9. Sakaja is a kalenjin - maybe with Luhya mother. I knew Sakaja from Parklands. They lived with my uncle. I know his father pub somewhere in Railways. Sakaja grandfather was first or 2nd mt elgon Mp.
Sabaot have bantu looking names - like Jipcho, kisero, Sakaja, mbito - they were nearly getting assimilated into Bukusu - thanks to incessant attacks from Nandis.
In comparison to North Eastern you dont have a decent number. You have a total of 8 and 6 Jubilee 2 K.AN.U. for a population of how many ? now compare that with North Eastern , they have 6 of them and all in Jubilee
Tana-River Golich Juma Wario JP Jubilee
Garissa Yusuf Haji JP Jubilee
Wajir Abdullahi Ibrahim Ali JP Jubilee
Mandera Mohamed Maalim Mahamud JP Jubilee
Marsabit Godana Hargura JP
Isiolo Adan Dullo Fatuma PDR Jubilee
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What tribe is that? North Eastern. You're mixing Somalis, Boranas, Ormas and all the them Cushite's. Kalenjin elected senators are 9. Sakaja is a kalenjin - maybe with Luhya mother. I knew Sakaja from Parklands. They lived with my uncle. I know his father pub somewhere in Railways. Sakaja grandfather was first or 2nd mt elgon Mp.
Sabaot have bantu looking names - like Jipcho, kisero, Sakaja, mbito - they were nearly getting assimilated into Bukusu - thanks to incessant attacks from Nandis.
In comparison to North Eastern you dont have a decent number. You have a total of 8 and 6 Jubilee 2 K.AN.U. for a population of how many ? now compare that with North Eastern , they have 6 of them and all in Jubilee
Tana-River Golich Juma Wario JP Jubilee
Garissa Yusuf Haji JP Jubilee
Wajir Abdullahi Ibrahim Ali JP Jubilee
Mandera Mohamed Maalim Mahamud JP Jubilee
Marsabit Godana Hargura JP
Isiolo Adan Dullo Fatuma PDR Jubilee
Nowayhaha and Njuri Ncheke seem to be improvising tribes on the fly out of thin air and just giving them some geographical moniker.
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What tribe is that? North Eastern. You're mixing Somalis, Boranas, Ormas and all the them Cushite's. Kalenjin elected senators are 9. Sakaja is a kalenjin - maybe with Luhya mother. I knew Sakaja from Parklands. They lived with my uncle. I know his father pub somewhere in Railways. Sakaja grandfather was first or 2nd mt elgon Mp.
Sabaot have bantu looking names - like Jipcho, kisero, Sakaja, mbito - they were nearly getting assimilated into Bukusu - thanks to incessant attacks from Nandis.
In comparison to North Eastern you dont have a decent number. You have a total of 8 and 6 Jubilee 2 K.AN.U. for a population of how many ? now compare that with North Eastern , they have 6 of them and all in Jubilee
Tana-River Golich Juma Wario JP Jubilee
Garissa Yusuf Haji JP Jubilee
Wajir Abdullahi Ibrahim Ali JP Jubilee
Mandera Mohamed Maalim Mahamud JP Jubilee
Marsabit Godana Hargura JP
Isiolo Adan Dullo Fatuma PDR Jubilee
Exactly my point, If you can categorize Rift Valley Senators as Kalenjins the North Eastern Senators can also be grouped together and as you can see and what Njuri was trying to tell you they are more united than Rift Valley Senators.
Truth be told if it wasnt for North Eastern , ODM would be running circles around Jubilee-
Secondly Sakaja in all forums has always indicated he sees himself as son of Emily Ayoti Kubasu(see clip below) and a luhya for that matter (remember his ties with Atwoli )
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What tribe is that? North Eastern. You're mixing Somalis, Boranas, Ormas and all the them Cushite's. Kalenjin elected senators are 9. Sakaja is a kalenjin - maybe with Luhya mother. I knew Sakaja from Parklands. They lived with my uncle. I know his father pub somewhere in Railways. Sakaja grandfather was first or 2nd mt elgon Mp.
Sabaot have bantu looking names - like Jipcho, kisero, Sakaja, mbito - they were nearly getting assimilated into Bukusu - thanks to incessant attacks from Nandis.
Exactly my point, If you can categorize Rift Valley Senators as Kalenjins the North Eastern Senators can also be grouped together and as you can see and what Njuri was trying to tell you they are more united than Rift Valley Senators.
Truth be told if it wasnt for North Eastern , ODM would be running circles around Jubilee-
Secondly Sakaja in all forums has always indicated he sees himself as son of Emily Ayoti Kubasu(see clip below) and a luhya for that matter (remember his ties with Atwoli )
Luhyas are paternal. So are Kalenjin. The child belongs to the dad's tribe. Atwoli is a charlatan. At best you take what he says with a pinch of salt.
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I only specified Kalenjin.RV have 14 senators..now Kamatusa (nilo-hamitic or more nilo-cushitic) have 12 - plus Sakaja and Lopokoyit (lamu) makes that 14 - about 30% of all counties and senate. I think it's combination of KM squared and population. Sakaja is kalenjin (but probably can't speak a word) - but for political sake - he tries to hide it - same way Sonko tries to be vague about his tribe.
What tribe is that? North Eastern. You're mixing Somalis, Boranas, Ormas and all the them Cushite's. Kalenjin elected senators are 9. Sakaja is a kalenjin - maybe with Luhya mother. I knew Sakaja from Parklands. They lived with my uncle. I know his father pub somewhere in Railways. Sakaja grandfather was first or 2nd mt elgon Mp.
Sabaot have bantu looking names - like Jipcho, kisero, Sakaja, mbito - they were nearly getting assimilated into Bukusu - thanks to incessant attacks from Nandis.
In comparison to North Eastern you dont have a decent number. You have a total of 8 and 6 Jubilee 2 K.AN.U. for a population of how many ? now compare that with North Eastern , they have 6 of them and all in Jubilee
Tana-River Golich Juma Wario JP Jubilee
Garissa Yusuf Haji JP Jubilee
Wajir Abdullahi Ibrahim Ali JP Jubilee
Mandera Mohamed Maalim Mahamud JP Jubilee
Marsabit Godana Hargura JP
Isiolo Adan Dullo Fatuma PDR Jubilee
Exactly my point, If you can categorize Rift Valley Senators as Kalenjins the North Eastern Senators can also be grouped together and as you can see and what Njuri was trying to tell you they are more united than Rift Valley Senators.
Truth be told if it wasnt for North Eastern , ODM would be running circles around Jubilee-
Secondly Sakaja in all forums has always indicated he sees himself as son of Emily Ayoti Kubasu(see clip below) and a luhya for that matter (remember his ties with Atwoli )
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I only specified Kalenjin.RV have 14 senators..now Kamatusa (nilo-hamitic or more nilo-cushitic) have 12 - plus Sakaja and Lopokoyit (lamu) makes that 14 - about 30% of all counties and senate. I think it's combination of KM squared and population. Sakaja is kalenjin (but probably can't speak a word) - but for political sake - he tries to hide it - same way Sonko tries to be vague about his tribe.
What tribe is that? North Eastern. You're mixing Somalis, Boranas, Ormas and all the them Cushite's. Kalenjin elected senators are 9. Sakaja is a kalenjin - maybe with Luhya mother. I knew Sakaja from Parklands. They lived with my uncle. I know his father pub somewhere in Railways. Sakaja grandfather was first or 2nd mt elgon Mp.
Sabaot have bantu looking names - like Jipcho, kisero, Sakaja, mbito - they were nearly getting assimilated into Bukusu - thanks to incessant attacks from Nandis.
In comparison to North Eastern you dont have a decent number. You have a total of 8 and 6 Jubilee 2 K.AN.U. for a population of how many ? now compare that with North Eastern , they have 6 of them and all in Jubilee
Tana-River Golich Juma Wario JP Jubilee
Garissa Yusuf Haji JP Jubilee
Wajir Abdullahi Ibrahim Ali JP Jubilee
Mandera Mohamed Maalim Mahamud JP Jubilee
Marsabit Godana Hargura JP
Isiolo Adan Dullo Fatuma PDR Jubilee
Exactly my point, If you can categorize Rift Valley Senators as Kalenjins the North Eastern Senators can also be grouped together and as you can see and what Njuri was trying to tell you they are more united than Rift Valley Senators.
Truth be told if it wasnt for North Eastern , ODM would be running circles around Jubilee-
Secondly Sakaja in all forums has always indicated he sees himself as son of Emily Ayoti Kubasu(see clip below) and a luhya for that matter (remember his ties with Atwoli )
If we use your analogy you will realize actually its GEMA who have 22 % of the senate and this is taking into consideration only pre1989 districts were used- Remember from 40 districts in 1966 the 7 added were from other places in Nyanza , Rift Valley and Western with exception of Mt Kenya Area. The MT Kenya Area added districts of Thika, Maragua Mbeere, Meru Central, Meru North & Meru South . Remember Martha Karua had to tone down on her position with promises Counties and provinces will be relooked in future
You never seem to understand why Uhuru and Ruto joined forces - You should go back to the Naivasha talks and the conversation/meeting which threw Kalonzo under the bus . When he was asked bring your numbers on the table .
Below are the " GEMA " senators not including the surrogates and the senators who won by virtue of the Mt Kenya voting block i.e. Sakaja and Anwar
||[[Meru County|Meru]] || [[Mithika Linturi]] || [[Jubilee Party (Kenya)|JP]] || Jubilee
|| [[Tharaka Nithi County|Tharaka Nithi]] ||[[Kithure A. Kindiki]]||[[Jubilee Party (Kenya)|JP]] || Jubilee
|| [[Embu County|Embu]] || [[Peter Ndwiga]] || [[Jubilee Party (Kenya)|JP]] || Jubilee
|| [[Nyandarua County|Nyandarua]] || [[Paul Githiomi Mwangi]] || [[Jubilee Party (Kenya)|JP]] || Jubilee
|| [[Nyeri County|Nyeri]] || [[Ephraim Maina]] || [[Jubilee Party (Kenya)|JP]] || Jubilee
|| [[Kirinyaga County|Kirinyaga]] || [[Charles Kibiru]] || Jubilee
|| [[Murang'a County|Murang'a]] || [[Irungu Kang'ata]] ||[[Jubilee Party (Kenya)|JP]] || Jubilee
|| [[Kiambu County|Kiambu]] || [[Kimani Wamatangi]] || [[Jubilee Party (Kenya)|JP]] || Jubilee
|| [[Laikipia County|Laikipia]] || [[John Nderitu]] || [[Jubilee Party (Kenya)|JP]] || Jubilee
|| [[Nakuru County|Nakuru]] || [[Susan Kihika]] || [[Jubilee Party (Kenya)|JP]] || Jubilee
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7 added post 66-62 include tharaka nithi, bomet, nyamira, vihiga,migori,makueni and I bet kirinyaga..fair list..only kiambu, nakuru,bungoma and kakamega deserve to be split further
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7 added post 66-62 include tharaka nithi, bomet, nyamira, vihiga,homabay and I bet kirinyaga..fair list..only kiambu, nakuru,bungoma and kakamega deserve to be split further
1968: In Nyanza province, Central Nyanza and South Nyanza districts were replaced by Homa Bay, Kisumu, and Siaya districts. The capitals of the new districts were Homa Bay, Kisumu, and Ukwala, respectively. This brought the number of districts to 41.
Between ~1969 and ~1989, the following new districts were created: in Eastern province, Makueni district split from Machakos, and Nithi district split from Meru; in Nyanza province, Migori district split from Homa Bay, and Nyamira district split from Kisii; in Rift Valley province, Bomet district split from Kericho; in Western province, Vihiga district split from Kakamega. Some territory was transferred from Turkana to West Pokot district in Rift Valley province. There were 47 districts as a result
Maragua and Thika districts should have been counties
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Kenyatta created kirinyaga n homabay.Moi added many but those that made the cut were migori,nyamira,vihiga,bomet, tharaka and makueni.Based on current population maragua was just a kamotho thing..thika yes..and so should nakuru, bungoma and Kakamega..urban counties lack the space.The list is generally fair....GEMA need to stop believing their own propaganda.
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If am not wrong Kenyatta created nyandarua from nakuru and transferred it to central and did same for kirinyaga.. taking it from embu in eastern.. otherwise original district left by mzungu as per 1962 were the three... kiambu, muranga and nyeri
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Kenyatta created kirinyaga n homabay.Moi added many but those that made the cut were migori,nyamira,vihiga,bomet, tharaka and makueni.Based on current population maragua was just a kamotho thing..thika yes..and so should nakuru, bungoma and Kakamega..urban counties lack the space.The list is generally fair....GEMA need to stop believing their own propaganda.
RV you see we are now back to Naivasha talks - Moi created so and so Kenyatta created so and so .Truth be told district creation as at that time Kenya was under a centralized system was basically administrating and taking services to the far end areas areas (rural in these case) Example when thika was formed Gatanga people who were closer to Thika town than Muranga town was easier for them to get government services ( from IDs to land transactions etc) Same example can be given for residents in Malindi .
When our politicians decided to change the constitution and decided to use districts as the basis and or unit of devolution , this was a far cry from what the agitators of reforms and new constitution had envisioned .But the reality is you can never run away from history , if you try to correct history you create new injustices , thats why people learn from history .
Thats why there was give and take in the naivasha talks the Trio of Uhuru Ruto Kalonzo outsmarted the Railas Mudavadis Orengos Ababu Namwambas and the independents the likes of Karua , Abdi Kadir and Wetangula Najib Balala
Take a look at below population census report you will realize going by counties the so called Kalenjin counties are over represented in some cases Muranga is even 2 times the number of population of those counties . You think the Uhuru faction didnt know this ? Remember how Uhuru and Ruto were suprised during the coalition committee meeting when Orengo stated they had no issue with a Presidential system .
Do you see similarities between BBI , Revenue Sharing debate and the Naivasha talks , do you think the stalemate will end if we continue blaming Kenyatta and Moi or blaming over representation and under representation . Do you see where BBI is heading to ...
Mombasa…………..… 1,208,333
Kwale……………..…… 866,820
Kilifi………………..…… 1,453,787
Tana River………….… 315,943
Lamu……………….…. 143,920
Taita/Taveta……..….…340,671
Garissa……………….. 841,353
Wajir……………….…… 781,263
Mandera…………....… 867,457
Marsabit…….…........459,785
Isiolo……….…….…… 268,002
Meru…………………… 1,545,714
Tharaka-Nithi………… 393,177
Embu………………….. 608,599
Kitui……………………. 1,136,187
Machakos………….…..1,421,932
Makueni………………. 987,653
Nyandarua……………. 638,289
Nyeri…………………… 759,164
Kirinyaga……………… 610,411
Murang'a………………. 1,056,640
Kiambu……………….. 2,417,735
Turkana………………. 926,976
West Pokot…………… 621,241
Samburu……………… 310,327
Trans Nzoia………….. 990,341
Uasin Gishu………….. 1,163,186
Elgeyo/Marakwet……..454,480
Nandi………………….. 885,711
Baringo……………….. 666,763
Laikipia………………… 518,560
Nakuru…………………2,162,202
Narok………………… 1,157,873
Kajiado……………… 1,117,840
Kericho………..……… 901,777
Bomet…………………. 875,689
Kakamega……………. 1,867,579
Vihiga…………………. 590,013
Bungoma…………..… 1,670,570
Busia…………...…….. 893,681
Siaya…………….…….. 993,183
Kisumu……………….. 1,155,574
Homa Bay…………….. 1,131,950
Migori………………….. 1,116,436
Kisii…………………… 1,266,860
Nyamira……………….. 605,576
Nairobi City……..……. 4,397,073
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If am not wrong Kenyatta created nyandarua from nakuru and transferred it to central and did same for kirinyaga.. taking it from embu in eastern.. otherwise original district left by mzungu as per 1962 were the three... kiambu, muranga and nyeri
Nyandarua per say is the white highlands " So who were there before the Wazungu ? We can as well argue lets take it before Kenyatta untill the wazungu era another one will come and say lets take before the Wazungu era. Museveni will come and say western and part of Rift valley was in Uganda and North Eastern will also say they lived in Somalia before it was partitioned and Kenya created .
As evident in 2013 and 2017 elections - a winning formula is created by the current resources one has at his disposal . Truthfull speaking Im really impressed by Ruto the way he has managed to maneuver current politics it just too good. If it was Raila or Kalonzo they would have made one mistake over the other . You can already see Kalozno confining himself only as Kamba leader and Raila losing the Coast the same way he lost North Eastern in 2013
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You're preaching to the choir. I understand what you're saying. The problem is Kikuyu believe their own propaganda that they are popolous and somehow an injustice is committed against them. These is same wear that delayed devolution or majimbo for many years. Unfounded fears.
Kenya districts as of 1962 are nearly well done - taking care of many parameters - most importantly tribe. The British did a thorough job - and were not influenced - so they sat down, listen to folks and carved kenya into 42 district that generally reflect the tribes or sub-tribes - as kenyans wanted.
I believe the few addition - 7 - are also good.
It's going to be difficult to add - as you well know it took lots of negotiation to get 47 - so we can only play around with boundaries.
My only wish is a few corrections be made. These should correct tribal sentiments. Move Mt Elgon to Tranzoia. Move Kuria to Gusii and Move part of Gusii to Nyamira to balance out. Move part of Meru to Tharaka Nithi. Poor Iteso have done well in Busia - and there is no easy solution - so they have to merge with baluhyas.
If counties feel they are populous for example Kiambu - then move part of Kiambu (Lari-Kijabe -Ndeiya) to Nyandarua. Move part of Muranga to Kirinyanga (makuyu)? Move part of Kakamega to Vihiga.
These are issues that IEBC should embark on during the next boundary review - but I doubt the current team have the balls to do this.
Kenyatta created kirinyaga n homabay.Moi added many but those that made the cut were migori,nyamira,vihiga,bomet, tharaka and makueni.Based on current population maragua was just a kamotho thing..thika yes..and so should nakuru, bungoma and Kakamega..urban counties lack the space.The list is generally fair....GEMA need to stop believing their own propaganda.
RV you see we are now back to Naivasha talks - Moi created so and so Kenyatta created so and so .Truth be told district creation as at that time Kenya was under a centralized system was basically administrating and taking services to the far end areas areas (rural in these case) Example when thika was formed Gatanga people who were closer to Thika town than Muranga town was easier for them to get government services ( from IDs to land transactions etc) Same example can be given for residents in Malindi .
When our politicians decided to change the constitution and decided to use districts as the basis and or unit of devolution , this was a far cry from what the agitators of reforms and new constitution had envisioned .But the reality is you can never run away from history , if you try to correct history you create new injustices , thats why people learn from history .
Thats why there was give and take in the naivasha talks the Trio of Uhuru Ruto Kalonzo outsmarted the Railas Mudavadis Orengos Ababu Namwambas and the independents the likes of Karua , Abdi Kadir and Wetangula Najib Balala
Take a look at below population census report you will realize going by counties the so called Kalenjin counties are over represented in some cases Muranga is even 2 times the number of population of those counties . You think the Uhuru faction didnt know this ? Remember how Uhuru and Ruto were suprised during the coalition committee meeting when Orengo stated they had no issue with a Presidential system .
Do you see similarities between BBI , Revenue Sharing debate and the Naivasha talks , do you think the stalemate will end if we continue blaming Kenyatta and Moi or blaming over representation and under representation . Do you see where BBI is heading to ...
Mombasa…………..… 1,208,333
Kwale……………..…… 866,820
Kilifi………………..…… 1,453,787
Tana River………….… 315,943
Lamu……………….…. 143,920
Taita/Taveta……..….…340,671
Garissa……………….. 841,353
Wajir……………….…… 781,263
Mandera…………....… 867,457
Marsabit…….…........459,785
Isiolo……….…….…… 268,002
Meru…………………… 1,545,714
Tharaka-Nithi………… 393,177
Embu………………….. 608,599
Kitui……………………. 1,136,187
Machakos………….…..1,421,932
Makueni………………. 987,653
Nyandarua……………. 638,289
Nyeri…………………… 759,164
Kirinyaga……………… 610,411
Murang'a………………. 1,056,640
Kiambu……………….. 2,417,735
Turkana………………. 926,976
West Pokot…………… 621,241
Samburu……………… 310,327
Trans Nzoia………….. 990,341
Uasin Gishu………….. 1,163,186
Elgeyo/Marakwet……..454,480
Nandi………………….. 885,711
Baringo……………….. 666,763
Laikipia………………… 518,560
Nakuru…………………2,162,202
Narok………………… 1,157,873
Kajiado……………… 1,117,840
Kericho………..……… 901,777
Bomet…………………. 875,689
Kakamega……………. 1,867,579
Vihiga…………………. 590,013
Bungoma…………..… 1,670,570
Busia…………...…….. 893,681
Siaya…………….…….. 993,183
Kisumu……………….. 1,155,574
Homa Bay…………….. 1,131,950
Migori………………….. 1,116,436
Kisii…………………… 1,266,860
Nyamira……………….. 605,576
Nairobi City……..……. 4,397,073
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Kikuyu elites must be shitting bricks when they see such plus unadulterated statistics from KNBS/NSIS.
Even Kang'ata before he turned rabid had written to Tuju/Murathe that senate will be no walk in the park.
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Somehow they seem justified , because there is no rational why the colonial master decided to distribute them(GEMA ) in 3 different provinces where as they are one people - Actually this was one of Karuas argument . They created 2 big provinces Rift Valley and Eastern and a small province Central - The purpose of this was to tame the Gema as they had started rebelling and as they were the primarily workers in White farms they had started to imitate the political technique .Remember by 1920 they had a party lead by Harry Thuku \(Young Kikuyu Association . Devolution under precincts set bay colonialists was unfair . There we go again we are now on KANU Vs KADU . However as pointed out earlier I dont think correcting history is the right way to go as it creates another hitorixcal injustice .example is the ongoing debate on Revenue share . The formula they are advocating for they think will cure the under representation is actually the wrong way to go .
British were looking at their interests period and in such ofcourse there were some actors benefitting the KADU politicians read RG Ngala, MOI and Masinde Muliros
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenya_African_Democratic_Union
The Kenya African Democratic Union (KADU) was a political party in Kenya. It was founded in 1960 when several leading politicians refused to join Jomo Kenyatta's Kenya African National Union (KANU). It was led by Ronald Ngala who was joined by Moi's Kalenjin Political Alliance, the Masai United Front, the Kenya African Peoples Party, the Coast African Political Union,Masinde Muliro's Baluhya Political Union and the Somali National Front.[1] The separate tribal organisations were to retain their identity and so, from the very start, KADU based its political approach on tribalism.[2]. KADU's aim was to defend the interests of the so-called KAMATUSA (an acronym for Kalenjin, Maasai, Turkana and Samburu ethnic groups) as well as the British settlers, against the imagined future dominance of the larger Luo and Kikuyu that comprised the majority of KANU's membership, when it became inevitable that Kenya will achieve its independence.[3] The KADU objective was to work towards a multiracial self government within the existing colonial political system.[1] After release of Jomo Kenyatta,KADU was becoming increasingly popular with European settlers and, on the whole, repudiated Kenyatta's leadership.[4] KADU's plan at Lancaster meetings was devised by European supporters, essentially to protect prevailing British settlers land rights.
You're preaching to the choir. I understand what you're saying. The problem is Kikuyu believe their own propaganda that they are popolous and somehow an injustice is committed against them. These is same wear that delayed devolution or majimbo for many years. Unfounded fears.
Kenya districts as of 1962 are nearly well done - taking care of many parameters - most importantly tribe. The British did a thorough job - and were not influenced - so they sat down, listen to folks and carved kenya into 42 district that generally reflect the tribes or sub-tribes - as kenyans wanted.
I believe the few addition - 7 - are also good.
It's going to be difficult to add - as you well know it took lots of negotiation to get 47 - so we can only play around with boundaries.
My only wish is a few corrections be made. These should correct tribal sentiments. Move Mt Elgon to Tranzoia. Move Kuria to Gusii and Move part of Gusii to Nyamira to balance out. Move part of Meru to Tharaka Nithi. Poor Iteso have done well in Busia - and there is no easy solution - so they have to merge with baluhyas.
If counties feel they are populous for example Kiambu - then move part of Kiambu (Lari-Kijabe -Ndeiya) to Nyandarua. Move part of Muranga to Kirinyanga (makuyu)? Move part of Kakamega to Vihiga.
These are issues that IEBC should embark on during the next boundary review - but I doubt the current team have the balls to do this.
Kenyatta created kirinyaga n homabay.Moi added many but those that made the cut were migori,nyamira,vihiga,bomet, tharaka and makueni.Based on current population maragua was just a kamotho thing..thika yes..and so should nakuru, bungoma and Kakamega..urban counties lack the space.The list is generally fair....GEMA need to stop believing their own propaganda.
RV you see we are now back to Naivasha talks - Moi created so and so Kenyatta created so and so .Truth be told district creation as at that time Kenya was under a centralized system was basically administrating and taking services to the far end areas areas (rural in these case) Example when thika was formed Gatanga people who were closer to Thika town than Muranga town was easier for them to get government services ( from IDs to land transactions etc) Same example can be given for residents in Malindi .
When our politicians decided to change the constitution and decided to use districts as the basis and or unit of devolution , this was a far cry from what the agitators of reforms and new constitution had envisioned .But the reality is you can never run away from history , if you try to correct history you create new injustices , thats why people learn from history .
Thats why there was give and take in the naivasha talks the Trio of Uhuru Ruto Kalonzo outsmarted the Railas Mudavadis Orengos Ababu Namwambas and the independents the likes of Karua , Abdi Kadir and Wetangula Najib Balala
Take a look at below population census report you will realize going by counties the so called Kalenjin counties are over represented in some cases Muranga is even 2 times the number of population of those counties . You think the Uhuru faction didnt know this ? Remember how Uhuru and Ruto were suprised during the coalition committee meeting when Orengo stated they had no issue with a Presidential system .
Do you see similarities between BBI , Revenue Sharing debate and the Naivasha talks , do you think the stalemate will end if we continue blaming Kenyatta and Moi or blaming over representation and under representation . Do you see where BBI is heading to ...
Mombasa…………..… 1,208,333
Kwale……………..…… 866,820
Kilifi………………..…… 1,453,787
Tana River………….… 315,943
Lamu……………….…. 143,920
Taita/Taveta……..….…340,671
Garissa……………….. 841,353
Wajir……………….…… 781,263
Mandera…………....… 867,457
Marsabit…….…........459,785
Isiolo……….…….…… 268,002
Meru…………………… 1,545,714
Tharaka-Nithi………… 393,177
Embu………………….. 608,599
Kitui……………………. 1,136,187
Machakos………….…..1,421,932
Makueni………………. 987,653
Nyandarua……………. 638,289
Nyeri…………………… 759,164
Kirinyaga……………… 610,411
Murang'a………………. 1,056,640
Kiambu……………….. 2,417,735
Turkana………………. 926,976
West Pokot…………… 621,241
Samburu……………… 310,327
Trans Nzoia………….. 990,341
Uasin Gishu………….. 1,163,186
Elgeyo/Marakwet……..454,480
Nandi………………….. 885,711
Baringo……………….. 666,763
Laikipia………………… 518,560
Nakuru…………………2,162,202
Narok………………… 1,157,873
Kajiado……………… 1,117,840
Kericho………..……… 901,777
Bomet…………………. 875,689
Kakamega……………. 1,867,579
Vihiga…………………. 590,013
Bungoma…………..… 1,670,570
Busia…………...…….. 893,681
Siaya…………….…….. 993,183
Kisumu……………….. 1,155,574
Homa Bay…………….. 1,131,950
Migori………………….. 1,116,436
Kisii…………………… 1,266,860
Nyamira……………….. 605,576
Nairobi City……..……. 4,397,073
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There you go with revisionism.kikuyu were exclusive in central.kenyatta regime moved millions to rift valley and lamu.1962 were well done.Kikuyu in rv were very few workere.. majority kicked out by tractors in 1930s..nearly all by Italian pow who grabbed Africa reserves after serving their British master for war crimes.the whole of naivasha, nyandarua,nakuru and uasin ngishu were white highlands and land originally belonged to maasai and kalenjin..kamatusa wanted to be together in rift valley..luhya in Western..kikuyus in central.I encourage you to read the boundaries report of 1962.Btw 1963 and 1973.. Kenyatta shipped a million kikuyus, Luos, luhyas and gusii to rift valley to occupy the 2 m acres left vacant by the departing from kenya.Thus begin the genesis of land grievance in rift valley and central
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There you go with revisionism.kikuyu were exclusive in central.kenyatta regime moved millions to rift valley and lamu.1962 were well done.Kikuyu in rv were very few workere.. majority kicked out by tractors in 1930s..nearly all by Italian pow who grabbed Africa reserves after serving their British master for war crimes.the whole of naivasha, nyandarua,nakuru and uasin ngishu were white highlands and land originally belonged to maasai and kalenjin..kamatusa wanted to be together in rift valley..luhya in Western..kikuyus in central.I encourage you to read the boundaries report of 1962.Btw 1963 and 1973.. Kenyatta shipped a million kikuyus, Luos, luhyas and gusii to rift valley to occupy the 2 m acres left vacant by the departing from kenya.Thus begin the genesis of land grievance in rift valley and central
Lets go back to see how white highlands came about .
http://www.icwa.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/IMW-22.pdf
In Kenya the alienation of land for European occupation ex- clusively has long been a source of discontent, and only recently has this policy been modified.
The problems it has raised have political aspects as well as tremendous emotional overtones.
Of Kenya's 220,000 square miles about 40,000 are almost uninhabitable desert, about 110,000 are at present either not used at all by man or only very thinly populated,
mostly by nomads, and about 2,000 comprise the coastal belt, most of which is not concerned with present-day agrarian problems. This accounts for about two-thirds of Kenya.
The remaining third, in which 90% of the population lives, is the agriculturally productive part of Kenya. It was from this land that the White Highlands were alienated (see map on page two).
The total area of the Highlands was 16,196 square miles of which only 11,724 were actually alienated. The difference consists mainly of forest reserves (only 3% of the total area of Kenya, one of the
lowest proportions in the world), national parks, craters and lakes. The rest of the land was reserved for African ownership.
In order to understand how this situation came to be, one must return to the period of early European settlement. At the turn of the century all the available evidence tended to show there were
very large unoccupied areas in Kenya. Under this assumption European settlers have been permitted, indeed often encouraged, to acquire title to land since 1901.
Some was freehold but most was leasehold for a period of up to 999 years. In 1915 the Governor was given power to control land transfers between members of different races, a measure designed to prevent the sale of land to Asians
Surrounding tribes, mainly Kikuyu, claimed that the land, although unused by them when it was bought, was in fact theirs by custom.
This claim combined with the Africans' growing insecurity on his own land due to a vacillating land policy led to the appointment in 1933 of a Land Commission presided over by Sir Morris Carter.
It was to investigate these African claims and also to define the limits of the Highlands in which Europeans, in accordance with the White Paper of 1923, "were to have a privileged position".
The Carter Commission approached its task on racial lines and set up reserves for most tribes as well as a reserve, the Highlands, for Europeans.
Each was given specific boundaries, and a highly segregated system of land ownership developed.
With such strong guarantees farmers in the Highlands have maintained European farming standards and have become the core of Kenya's agricultural economy,
producing a large proportion of its wealth.
We decided to spend some time in the Highlands and find out what's going on.
Our first stop was Nanyuki, a small town to the west of Mount Kenya. It's some 6,400 feet high; so the air was clear and fresh in the daytime and cold at night.
We checked in at the Silverbeck Hotel which boasts a bar bisected by the equator and were relieved to see
that our room not only had a view right on to Mount Kenya's rocky crags but also a fireplace which burned aromatic cedar logs
After its climate and beauty Nanyuki is known as a town largely populated by characters, most of whom don't speak to each other. Such is life among East Africa's pioneersjDutsoalso is warm hospitality,
and we enjoyed more than our share. We first visited one of the earliest settlers who came to Nanyuki in 1912 when the area was empty save for a few wandering Masai and Kikuyu and of course the numerous wild animals.
.
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Condense that..biggest of white highlands were concession away by Lenana the Maasai chief..the rest were small patches taken either as war reparations or etc.Lenana gave out Nairobi, parts Nakuru, Nyandarua,laikipia..uasin ngishu and tranzoia were declared vacant and occupied by Force.Kiambu and part of muranga was also occupied I think by force.Lenana signed out most of rift valley in exchange of being left to run narok-kajaido and North laikipia in the Anglo maasai treaty
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There were two Anglo maasai treaties..1904 and 1911.This is the 1911 http://www.geocities.ws/olmorijo/maasai_agreement_1911.htm
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Pundit tell me why part of Meru should be moved to tharaka nithi?
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Pundit tell me why part of Meru should be moved to tharaka nithi?
To balance the population..reduce imentis sitting on all of you.Meru has 9 sub tribes split them into 4-5 btw the two counties
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The population in Tharaka-Nithi is reducing drastically. I hear they are all moving to Nairobi. The current population in Tharaka Nithi is lower than the votes cast there in the presidential elections in 2007. :D :D :D
Pundit tell me why part of Meru should be moved to tharaka nithi?
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Pundit tell me why part of Meru should be moved to tharaka nithi?
To balance the population..reduce imentis sitting on all of you.Meru has 9 sub tribes split them into 4-5 btw the two counties
That would never work, there was an injustice in the creation of counties, Tigania igembes would want their own county Nyambene. They would never want to be in Tharaka Nithi and they wouldn't be welcomed their. Imentis the same, but as of now you can't please everyone
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The population in Tharaka-Nithi is reducing drastically. I hear they are all moving to Nairobi. The current population in Tharaka Nithi is lower than the votes cast there in the presidential elections in 2007. :D :D :D
Pundit tell me why part of Meru should be moved to tharaka nithi?
Yes Tharaka Nithi with serious depopulation, most moving to Meru County and secondly Nairobi. There lots of Tharaka and Chuka in Meru county they settle into the local population well and do not want to go back they have bought farms, actually they are even soo deep in Northern Meru where it used to be Just Tigania and Igembe. Going forward Tharaka nithi population might all end up in meru living TNC empty.
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I thought there was iron ore in tharaka..they need to develop it.
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Are you still in denial Kibaki stole the election in 2007? Even my diehard Mt Kenya friends would today not dare deny the obvious.
So you group Kalenjin together and then in Mt Kenya you only drop name Kikuyu.
You also go ahead and Group Nairobi as a Kalenjin County.
You know i n 2013 ams 2017 UhuRuto knew they were going to win by virtue of numbers , their worry was senate and governors. Instead of them sitting preetry and alluding to the numbers like you have done , they startegized how to win North Eastern in as much as voters numbers there cannot be compared to Rift Valley and My Kenya , the senator numbers and Governor numbers are substantial and they can affirm a win. Thats How they were able to convince the world they won both elections unlike kibaki in 2007 when he lost the propaganda war and ODM used Mp numbers to tell the world Kibaki didnt win.
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Are you still in denial Kibaki stole the election in 2007? Even my diehard Mt Kenya friends would today not dare deny the obvious.
So you group Kalenjin together and then in Mt Kenya you only drop name Kikuyu.
You also go ahead and Group Nairobi as a Kalenjin County.
You know i n 2013 ams 2017 UhuRuto knew they were going to win by virtue of numbers , their worry was senate and governors. Instead of them sitting preetry and alluding to the numbers like you have done , they startegized how to win North Eastern in as much as voters numbers there cannot be compared to Rift Valley and My Kenya , the senator numbers and Governor numbers are substantial and they can affirm a win. Thats How they were able to convince the world they won both elections unlike kibaki in 2007 when he lost the propaganda war and ODM used Mp numbers to tell the world Kibaki didnt win.
I can see someone debating 2013 and 2017(even though I am sure those were stolen too). Debating 2007 is beyond the pale. I know die-hard Kibaki supporters who agreed, even at the time, that it was stolen.
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I thought there was iron ore in tharaka..they need to develop it.
Not just Iron ore there are other minerals there but as you know Kenya lacks capacity, if oil has failed in turkana we won't crack any other minerals. We need just a strong private mining enterprise to fill the gap for the government. I have been to remote areas of Tharaka was trading in sand i used to buy a lorry cheap at 3k and sell it in towns at 7-9k was blissful business. Oh i remember those days was single then had all the fun in the world but stopped when I settled down.
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Condense that..biggest of white highlands were concession away by Lenana the Maasai chief..the rest were small patches taken either as war reparations or etc.Lenana gave out Nairobi, parts Nakuru, Nyandarua,laikipia..uasin ngishu and tranzoia were declared vacant and occupied by Force.Kiambu and part of muranga was also occupied I think by force.Lenana signed out most of rift valley in exchange of being left to run narok-kajaido and North laikipia in the Anglo maasai treaty
The white highlands were created from the following moving aficans to reserves (read Kikuyu),Lenanas treaty which essentially gave away Lower Laikipia and Samburu lands and vast unused land (read Nakuru and Elementaita etc)
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You need to step out of your own propaganda and learn the truth.
Before I respond I challenge you to show me White Highlands in Nyeri or Muranga (apart from Delmonto-Kakuzi).
In Nyeri - British probably "took" only the catholic land. This was normally donated to missionaries by converted Africa and was used for public good - schools and hospitals.
Show me white highlands in Embu or Meru.
Show me white highlands in Kirinyanga or Tharaka
The only white highlands were in Kiambu.
Show me kikuyus displaced in Kiambu.
Mzungu mainly took forested land in Kiambu mostly - and the land - that they thought belonged to Maasai or Dorobo (maasai speaking aborginal or okiek)
There were few disputed land in Nairobi and Kiambu - which belong to either Maasai or Dorobo - but which Kikuyus laid claim.
Kikuyus are really very "funny" people - through some "mass" hysteria - they turned history upside down.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/14/kenya
The White Highlands were never part of Kikuyuland. They were occupied by Masai nomads who agreed to turn the highlands over for settlement under two formal treaties in 1904 and 1911.
Mwafrika is a funny person.
Let me speak for Kipsigis for example.
Mzungu indeed took took 3 land
1) Kericho tea farms - most of it were mau forest - but evicted a few families on edges. Kipsigis have changed the story of course.
2) They also curve a 10 mile stretch btw Kipsigis and gusii to stop the tribal clashes btw them.
3) Later they also took some few land to seperate Kispigis from Luos - these were lated handed over to Indians to grow sugar cane. Luos claim this was their land - but of course muhoroni or chemelil are Kalenjin land.
Nandi after losing their 10-15 yr war with British - were fined heavily.
They were fined in thousands of cattle and land.
That I think is probably only African natives who lost land due to war repartation.
Many Nandis were evicted to create land - and many of them left Nandi for Luhya, Uganda, kipsigis and Tanzania. Some went to Pokot.
They basically woke up and moved with their cattle - unable to stomach losing them and their land.
Many of them didn't want to lose land and their cattle.
They Nandi also laid claim to Uasin Gishu having just beaten the Maasai there - but uasin gishu was really no man lands btw maasai, keiyos and nandis.
It was nearly empty pasture land - where you cattle would be stolen anytime.
What land did Kikuyus lose? Not much. Actually maybe NOTHING.
Not much. Actually nothing if you consider the Kiambu land were disputed by Maasai and Ogiek. For example Tigoni -Limuru were disputed by Dorobo - and Kikuyus immigrants from Muranga were just leasing them.
I believe Kikuyus had reached ruiru-gatundu - as land owners - but were leasing forest edges from Dorobo - in upper kiambu (limuru-dagoretti)
What Kikuyus lose and what led to Mau.
They basically lost jobs in rift valley as Mzungu farm workers.
This started around mid 1930-1940s - there was huge displacement of Kikuyu and kalenjin farm hands from mzungu (maasai) farms
This happened after mzungu imported tractors and farm machinery.
My own great grandfather felt victim - was kicked out of now Nyamiria-Borabu with his oxen - to native reserves at edge of Borabu settlement scheme.
My own grandfather and grandmother were born in Mzungu scheme - around 1910s -1920s - right there in now Borabu.
My great grandfather brother got a job to drive a tractor in Molo around that time - and he recall Molo as huge grass thatched town of kikuyu workers
His other brother got a job in Naivasha to work for Mzungu - who eventually burnt him alive for contracting Small pox - was like Corona then.
His wife recalls - the Mzungu burning their grass thatched house with him inside. This was Mzungu way to deal with small pox.
The next displacement would happen in 1950s - after Italians POW having served their "prison" - were granted african reserves.
They had spent 5 years building roads, bridges and anything the British fancied with free labour from their skilled prisoners.
They were rewarded by creation of new lands - mostly in native or african reserves at edges of the white highlands
These italian POW were noted for their harshness...they were mostly military officers arrested in Somalia and a few germans from Tanganyika.
They kicked Africans right into their reserves....and thus began MAUMAU.
Most notably around molo and nakuru...the 1952 eviction of Kikuyus from Olenguoreno (by Italians) - and dumping them in Kiambu Lari that began MauMau (Mungiki)
This led to next wave of Kikuyus being sent back to Central.
And thus began the problem.
Otherwise Luhyas, Luos, Kambas, Kikuyus, many kenya tribes name them LOST NOT if any land
I would say 90% of the land was from Maasai - Including Delmonte - Maasai territory extended from Oldonyo Sabuk - that is Thika all the way to Machakos that we know - I mean all that Tala-Kangundo - Konza - Nairobi - embaksai - ruiru- juja - name them. Nairobi - all the way to Nakuru - Nyandarua- Naivasha - Laikipia -Timau - - all the way to Tranzoai - where last Maasai (Elgon Maasai) lived.
Once the Brits had signed the deal with Maasai. It was over.
They took over the Kenya - for Maasai owned Kenya - right from few kilometers from Mombasa to Mt elgon - from the foot of Lake Turkana to Tanzania.
The white highlands were created from the following moving aficans to reserves (read Kikuyu),Lenanas treaty which essentially gave away Lower Laikipia and Samburu lands and vast unused land (read Nakuru and Elementaita etc)
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You need to step out of your own propaganda and learn the truth.
Before I respond I challenge you to show me White Highlands in Nyeri or Muranga (apart from Delmonto-Kakuzi).
In Nyeri - British probably "took" only the catholic land. This was normally donated to missionaries by converted Africa and was used for public good - schools and hospitals.
Show me white highlands in Embu or Meru.
Show me white highlands in Kirinyanga or Tharaka
The only white highlands were in Kiambu.
Show me kikuyus displaced in Kiambu.
Mzungu mainly took forested land in Kiambu mostly - and the land - that they thought belonged to Maasai or Dorobo (maasai speaking aborginal or okiek)
There were few disputed land in Nairobi and Kiambu - which belong to either Maasai or Dorobo - but which Kikuyus laid claim.
Kikuyus are really very "funny" people - through some "mass" hysteria - they turned history upside down.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/14/kenya
The White Highlands were never part of Kikuyuland. They were occupied by Masai nomads who agreed to turn the highlands over for settlement under two formal treaties in 1904 and 1911.
Mwafrika is a funny person.
Let me speak for Kipsigis for example.
Mzungu indeed took took 3 land
1) Kericho tea farms - most of it were mau forest - but evicted a few families on edges. Kipsigis have changed the story of course.
2) They also curve a 10 mile stretch btw Kipsigis and gusii to stop the tribal clashes btw them.
3) Later they also took some few land to seperate Kispigis from Luos - these were lated handed over to Indians to grow sugar cane. Luos claim this was their land - but of course muhoroni or chemelil are Kalenjin land.
Nandi after losing their 10-15 yr war with British - were fined heavily.
They were fined in thousands of cattle and land.
That I think is probably only African natives who lost land due to war repartation.
Many Nandis were evicted to create land - and many of them left Nandi for Luhya, Uganda, kipsigis and Tanzania. Some went to Pokot.
They basically woke up and moved with their cattle - unable to stomach losing them and their land.
Many of them didn't want to lose land and their cattle.
They Nandi also laid claim to Uasin Gishu having just beaten the Maasai there - but uasin gishu was really no man lands btw maasai, keiyos and nandis.
It was nearly empty pasture land - where you cattle would be stolen anytime.
What land did Kikuyus lose? Not much. Actually maybe NOTHING.
Not much. Actually nothing if you consider the Kiambu land were disputed by Maasai and Ogiek. For example Tigoni -Limuru were disputed by Dorobo - and Kikuyus immigrants from Muranga were just leasing them.
I believe Kikuyus had reached ruiru-gatundu - as land owners - but were leasing forest edges from Dorobo - in upper kiambu (limuru-dagoretti)
What Kikuyus lose and what led to Mau.
They basically lost jobs in rift valley as Mzungu farm workers.
This started around mid 1930-1940s - there was huge displacement of Kikuyu and kalenjin farm hands from mzungu (maasai) farms
This happened after mzungu imported tractors and farm machinery.
My own great grandfather felt victim - was kicked out of now Nyamiria-Borabu with his oxen - to native reserves at edge of Borabu settlement scheme.
My own grandfather and grandmother were born in Mzungu scheme - around 1910s -1920s - right there in now Borabu.
My great grandfather brother got a job to drive a tractor in Molo around that time - and he recall Molo as huge grass thatched town of kikuyu workers
His other brother got a job in Naivasha to work for Mzungu - who eventually burnt him alive for contracting Small pox - was like Corona then.
His wife recalls - the Mzungu burning their grass thatched house with him inside. This was Mzungu way to deal with small pox.
The next displacement would happen in 1950s - after Italians POW having served their "prison" - were granted african reserves.
They had spent 5 years building roads, bridges and anything the British fancied with free labour from their skilled prisoners.
They were rewarded by creation of new lands - mostly in native or african reserves at edges of the white highlands
These italian POW were noted for their harshness...they were mostly military officers arrested in Somalia and a few germans from Tanganyika.
They kicked Africans right into their reserves....and thus began MAUMAU.
Most notably around molo and nakuru...the 1952 eviction of Kikuyus from Olenguoreno (by Italians) - and dumping them in Kiambu Lari that began MauMau (Mungiki)
This led to next wave of Kikuyus being sent back to Central.
And thus began the problem.
Otherwise Luhyas, Luos, Kambas, Kikuyus, many kenya tribes name them LOST NOT if any land
I would say 90% of the land was from Maasai - Including Delmonte - Maasai territory extended from Oldonyo Sabuk - that is Thika all the way to Machakos that we know - I mean all that Tala-Kangundo - Konza - Nairobi - embaksai - ruiru- juja - name them. Nairobi - all the way to Nakuru - Nyandarua- Naivasha - Laikipia -Timau - - all the way to Tranzoai - where last Maasai (Elgon Maasai) lived.
Once the Brits had signed the deal with Maasai. It was over.
They took over the Kenya - for Maasai owned Kenya - right from few kilometers from Mombasa to Mt elgon - from the foot of Lake Turkana to Tanzania.
The white highlands were created from the following moving aficans to reserves (read Kikuyu),Lenanas treaty which essentially gave away Lower Laikipia and Samburu lands and vast unused land (read Nakuru and Elementaita etc)
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/36695659.pdf
The expansive system of railroads had a particularly profound effect on the land
and many of the Kikuyu living in the area. The Kikuyu would soon be displaced to make
room for British farms and families. The Kikuyu, together with the Embu and Meru,
constituted the largest single group of native peoples living in East Africa during the
1950s, with an estimated number of approximately half a million. The area in which this
tribe lived consisted of a strip of land along the eastern side of the Aberdare (Aberdeen)
Mountain forest and around the southern and western sides of the Mount Kenya forest.
This area, in addition to the mountains themselves and the settled British areas of the
agricultural land, would form the area in which the Kenyan Emergency would occur.
The entire area was a space approximately one hundred miles from north to south and
somewhat less from east to west (Kitson, p. 4).
The Kikuyu, Embu, and Meru were not just kicked off the land and told to seek
refuge elsewhere, but were and compensated in various ways. One such practice of
supposed compensation was for Kikuyu villages to be allowed to remain on the fringes of
British farms where they would work and earn wages from British settlers. The land on
which they traditionally farmed or grazed their livestock became British farms and the
Kikuyu were used much as were sharecroppers or squatters in the south of the United
States. In being permitted to stay they had to, in turn, work for the British for relatively
low wages. However, with more and more settlers moving into the East African pastoral
lands, the Kikuyu often also found themselves being uprooted and moved time and time
again.
Economic aspirations were not the only goals of the British colonial effort.
Unlike other colonial powers, Britain felt it had an obligation to “civilize” the backwards,
native people living in the colonies. The British felt it was their responsibility to
transform the local people into productive citizens and bring them into the light of the
modern world so they might have a role in their own governance, but more importantly
so they might share in the responsibility and the maintenance of colonies such as Kenya.
The British built churches and sent missionaries to East Africa in an attempt to civilize
the native peoples and put an end to many of their “heathen” practices. These religious
reforms, along with the practice of displacing Kikuyu from their native lands to make
room for British settlers, would become the seeds of unrest in Kenya.
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Baseless propaganda
Show me land in Embu or Nyeri or name them where British farmers lived.
If it's railways, roads and all that - all the tribe lost.
And that was at best 100m corridor.
Name two or 3 white farmers who lived in Muranga or Nyeri
White highlands were in Kiambu, Machakos, Kajiado, Makueni, Taita, name them, nakuru, nyandarua, laikipia, uasin gishu and transzoia.
And Nairobi of course.
And it was mostly Maasai land that were formally handed over.
The dispute arise in a few arise where say Kikuyus had overrun Maasai or Meru or kipsigis or Nandis or name...would claim the Maasai handed over areas they had lost control.
Except Kipgisis and Nandis...and maybe small pieces here and there...the rest of the tribes never lost any land to Mzungu. They lost personal freedoms and all that.
Otherwise show me Mzungu farm in West Pokot or Elgeyo Marakwet or Siaya.
Economic aspirations were not the only goals of the British colonial effort.
Unlike other colonial powers, Britain felt it had an obligation to “civilize” the backwards,
native people living in the colonies. The British felt it was their responsibility to
transform the local people into productive citizens and bring them into the light of the
modern world so they might have a role in their own governance, but more importantly
so they might share in the responsibility and the maintenance of colonies such as Kenya.
The British built churches and sent missionaries to East Africa in an attempt to civilize
the native peoples and put an end to many of their “heathen” practices. These religious
reforms, along with the practice of displacing Kikuyu from their native lands to make
room for British settlers, would become the seeds of unrest in Kenya.
-
They Nandi also laid claim to Uasin Gishu having just beaten the Maasai there - but uasin gishu was really no man lands btw maasai, keiyos and nandis.
It was nearly empty pasture land - where you cattle would be stolen anytime.
You see RV , this is a good point you put out. Much of the land in Kenya was no Mans land . The Maasai used to be pastoralist and nomads .Further Kikuyus Kamba and Maasai used to raid each other . Thats how Kikuyu assimilated the doruba and Kamba were able to acquire Makueni .
If Nandi can claim Uasin Ngishu which is a Known Maasai land , what is wrong with Kikuyu claiming Nakuru which actually prior to settlers it was not inhabited .
You are one of the first people to say Nairobi was Maasai land and colonialist came and found Waiyaki wa Hinga already having his village there in Dagoretti . Why the double standards ?
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You have to understand things.
Why did the Maasai easily hand over their land.
Brits had been in Mombasa and Zanzibar for 100yrs - circling - but Maasai were fearsome and strong.
When Maasai started civil war - they became so weak - other tribes started beating them.
Before that Maasai were unbeatable. Not by anyone. Even the British feared. The Arab Slave traders told them as much.
Maasai were like the Vikings. Tribes - from luhyas, luo, kalenjin, kikuyu, somalis, kambas, would steal Maasa kids just to Artificially Inseminate their bravery on them.
The Maasai were not a small tribe - they were popolous - and would raise as much as 10,000 troops (warriors) at one go. That was a spectacle then - and would basically overrun anybody. You could be strong - but 10,000 troops was about many of current tribes population.
Only the Ogoni - Zulu breakway - did stop the Maasai - otherwise Maasai march from South Sudan was the most momentous historical event in East Africa.
But btw 1850 - 1900 - Maasai were fast loosing territory amidst their civil war, rinderpest (from Asia through Eritrea) and name it.
So Maasai basically handed over territories they were losing or about to lose.
In Meru and Nyeri - Mt Kenya - they were starting to lose Timau and Mt Kenya.
In kiambu - they were losing
In Uasing gishu and Tranzoia - they were losing to Nandis and Pokots - and Keiyos.
In Nakuru they were losing to Kipsigis (not kikuyus) and Tugens.
In Nyando valley - they had lost to Luos and Kipsigis.
please don't twist history.
Their territory before then extended nearly all the provinces
You see RV , this is a good point you put out. Much of the land in Kenya was no Mans land . The Maasai used to be pastoralist and nomads .Further Kikuyus Kamba and Maasai used to raid each other . Thats how Kikuyu assimilated the doruba and Kamba were able to acquire Makueni .
If Nandi can claim Uasin Ngishu which is a Known Maasai land , what is wrong with Kikuyu claiming Nakuru which actually prior to settlers it was not inhabited .
You are one of the first people to say Nairobi was Maasai land and colonialist came and found Waiyaki wa Hinga already having his village there in Dagoretti . Why the double standards ?
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You have to understand things.
Why did the Maasai easily hand over their land.
This was because after the construction of the Ugandan Railway they were no longer useful to the colonial administration . Maasai and Colonial administration had a symbiotic relationship where Maasai offered corridors for communication during the construction and colonial government would aid Maasai in raids to restock their cattle which had been lost by rinderpest imported from Crimea
Brits had been in Mombasa and Zanzibar for 100yrs - circling - but Maasai were fearsome and strong.
The whites had explored the hinterland , however with the construction of the Ugandan Railway , they wanted a return in the investment hence they encouraged white settlers which lead in the displacement of the locals including Maasai
When Maasai started civil war - they became so weak - other tribes started beating them.
Before that Maasai were unbeatable. Not by anyone. Even the British feared. The Arab Slave traders told them as much.
Maasai were like the Vikings. Tribes - from luhyas, luo, kalenjin, kikuyu, somalis, kambas, would steal Maasa kids just to Artificially Inseminate their bravery on them.
The Maasai were not a small tribe - they were popolous - and would raise as much as 10,000 troops (warriors) at one go. That was a spectacle then - and would basically overrun anybody. You could be strong - but 10,000 troops was about many of current tribes population.
Only the Ogoni - Zulu breakway - did stop the Maasai - otherwise Maasai march from South Sudan was the most momentous historical event in East Africa.
But btw 1850 - 1900 - Maasai were fast loosing territory amidst their civil war, rinderpest (from Asia through Eritrea) and name it.
Everyone knows Maasais history ....
So Maasai basically handed over territories they were losing or about to lose.
In Meru and Nyeri - Mt Kenya - they were starting to lose Timau and Mt Kenya.
In kiambu - they were losing
In Uasing gishu and Tranzoia - they were losing to Nandis and Pokots - and Keiyos.
In Nakuru they were losing to Kipsigis (not kikuyus) and Tugens.
In Nyando valley - they had lost to Luos and Kipsigis.
please don't twist history.
Their territory before then extended nearly all the provinces
One thing you alluded to earlier was that vast majority of land was no mans land .Secondly Maasai were pastoral nomads meaning they didnt have a fixed habitation and would move from one area to another in search of pasture. Unlike Bantus who practiced farming and settled in the places they farmed and in so absorbed or displaced the pastoralists
If you dig further you will realize this one of the reason the Colonialists had close ties with the Maasai unlike Bantus in General , because Bantus was in direct competition with them . There are several factors which were advantageous to Bantu and made them expand .One of them being Farming . You will notice when Kalenjin switched to farming they had a population boom .
Bottom line is as stated before the white highlands were crafted by displacing locals, either sending them to reserves and or signing treaties to give way , and the vast unused land be it forests bushes or idle land .When the settlers left and were selling the land on a free buyer free seller Kalenjin (its evident from your thinking) started saying its their ancestral land because the same colonialist had created provinces without any rational basis other than safeguarding their interests .
You see RV , this is a good point you put out. Much of the land in Kenya was no Mans land . The Maasai used to be pastoralist and nomads .Further Kikuyus Kamba and Maasai used to raid each other . Thats how Kikuyu assimilated the doruba and Kamba were able to acquire Makueni .
If Nandi can claim Uasin Ngishu which is a Known Maasai land , what is wrong with Kikuyu claiming Nakuru which actually prior to settlers it was not inhabited .
You are one of the first people to say Nairobi was Maasai land and colonialist came and found Waiyaki wa Hinga already having his village there in Dagoretti . Why the double standards ?
[/quote]
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You're still spinning.Brits came to Kenya because maasai started weaking around 1850..long before Railways.Maasai by around 1870 was fast losing territory.Brits were long in coast fighting slave trade..creatimg Rabai and free town of freed slaves.gain you don't understand nomadism.Maasai didnt move completely.. and maasai territory was well known.Bantu territory in Kenya remain very tiny...even after jomo Kenyatta landgrab..there was no basis for willing buyer seller when the land had original dwellers.Why was other tribe not allowed opportunity to buy kiambu.This was a land grab pure and simple..by Kenyatta who had inherited colonial power.This is very common knowledge in rv and coast coz it's recent history..100yrs
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You're still spinning.Brits came to Kenya because maasai started weaking around 1850..long before Railways.Maasai by around 1870 was fast losing territory.Brits were long in coast fighting slave trade..creatimg Rabai and free town of freed slaves.gain you don't understand nomadism.Maasai didnt move completely.. and maasai territory was well known.Bantu territory in Kenya remain very tiny...even after jomo Kenyatta landgrab..there was no basis for willing buyer seller when the land had original dwellers.Why was other tribe not allowed opportunity to buy kiambu.This was a land grab pure and simple..by Kenyatta who had inherited colonial power.This is very common knowledge in rv and coast coz it's recent history..100yrs
I have a question to you , whats you opinion on what is happening in MAU and the clashes in Narok ?
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They Nandi also laid claim to Uasin Gishu having just beaten the Maasai there - but uasin gishu was really no man lands btw maasai, keiyos and nandis.
It was nearly empty pasture land - where you cattle would be stolen anytime.
You see RV , this is a good point you put out. Much of the land in Kenya was no Mans land . The Maasai used to be pastoralist and nomads .Further Kikuyus Kamba and Maasai used to raid each other . Thats how Kikuyu assimilated the doruba and Kamba were able to acquire Makueni .
If Nandi can claim Uasin Ngishu which is a Known Maasai land , what is wrong with Kikuyu claiming Nakuru which actually prior to settlers it was not inhabited .
You are one of the first people to say Nairobi was Maasai land and colonialist came and found Waiyaki wa Hinga already having his village there in Dagoretti . Why the double standards ?
You are driving pundit to a melt down, but honestly he is telling almost the whole truth, problem with him is that he gets so ingrained in his truth and forgets other factors, like the point you raise that most of the white highlands were no man land. This is now the whole truth, but pundit attributes most of these lands to masaai occupation and over hypes masaai domination, i would think pund has some masai blood he likes repeating and resuscitation of this fact. No one refuses masaai were most dreaded in Kenya. But its laughable and idiotic to say they kept the british at the coast from fear of going inland, wah he took stale mursik on this. Another honestly silly comment is that the nandi werw the only tribe forced to pay mzungu for war, this is dumb almost all kabilas that fought mzungu were made to pay even kisii, embu, its well documented. In all white highlands were 60% no mans land then 30% Masaai land then 10% other kabilas
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Mau forest boundaries should be fenced. Mau is complicated because Ogiek/Dorobo calls it home. The Mau Narok that Kipsigis occupied were basically owned by Ogiek. I live next to Mau forest - and these evictions are not first or last - as a Kid I remember people would move to Mau - many use to sleep in our place - in kalenjin you have to welcome a foreigner - they would stop and then plot their way to Mau - forest - to go settle in Tinet etc. My father eventually had a food store reserved for such kinds. A few months later they would troop back. Their house burnt. When they cross over - they become Ogiek - Ogiek speak either kalenjin or maasai.
Now in mid 90s - Moi got tired chasing and burning their house - gov decided to settle them with funding from WB -
Long story short - Fence the forest like was done in Aberderes/Mt Kenya - The current fake Ogiek will get land - sell it - and head to the forest - and clear it.
I have a question to you , whats you opinion on what is happening in MAU and the clashes in Narok ?
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Here come the Mountain
warrior farmer with his limited history.
You have a problem with either history or the truth.
Arabs were in Mombasa by 10th century. They would run their slave trade except in territories occupied by Maasai.The Portugues were in Coast by 15th century - they had basically colonized Mozambique and Angola by then. The dutch had colonized South Africa. British were all over Ghana and Nigeria from 15th century. The British were all over Africa in 17th century - working to stop slave trader. I think they had long colonized Zanzibar/Mombasa - stopped the slave trade - and were settling freed slaves. But they dreaded the interior...thanks to Maasai reputation.
This was long before the 19th century - 1880 Berlin conference official partioning of Africa. Maasai were feared by almost all tribe. Definitely the Arab slave traders even with their guns could never dare Maasai. Infact they live in fear of Maasai attacking Mombasa. The same fear of Maasai was spread far and wide.In fact when first Mzungu crossed Maasai land and documented it - it became a best seller in modern world - Europe/US.
When it come to war repartartion. Many tribes were fined in cattle and such. Maybe a few were told to give up little piece of land for establishing of gov office..maybe 100 acres. Nandi war was something - and they were fined heavily - not only in thousands of cattle but in almost them secede from all their land.
Some facts are stubborn. My friend Maasai occupied land from Lake Turkana to Lake Tanganyika. From some 50kms from Mombasa to Uganda border. Show me a tribe in East Africa with even 1/4 of their land.
Most of kenya tribes especially the bantus would send their women to be fertilized by Maas so they could get Maasai blood. That is why the current Kikuyu or meru is closer to Dinka or Maasai (half nilotic) while the current Luo is closer to Bantu Luhya. Maybe the Bantus you'll get that are genuine are the Mijikenda.
Many like in Luhya would hire Maasai mercenaries to fight for them.
If the British struggled against Nandis - don't think they would have defeated Maasai at their prime.
You are driving pundit to a melt down, but honestly he is telling almost the whole truth, problem with him is that he gets so ingrained in his truth and forgets other factors, like the point you raise that most of the white highlands were no man land. This is now the whole truth, but pundit attributes most of these lands to masaai occupation and over hypes masaai domination, i would think pund has some masai blood he likes repeating and resuscitation of this fact. No one refuses masaai were most dreaded in Kenya. But its laughable and idiotic to say they kept the british at the coast from fear of going inland, wah he took stale mursik on this. Another honestly silly comment is that the nandi werw the only tribe forced to pay mzungu for war, this is dumb almost all kabilas that fought mzungu were made to pay even kisii, embu, its well documented. In all white highlands were 60% no mans land then 30% Masaai land then 10% other kabilas
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Totally wrong. Then Turkana and most parts of NFD are "no man's land". That expression was used by European settlers to occupy other continents. How can land that nomads use even once in a year be no man's land? Europeans were farmers and beleaved only their way of living is the right one. Communal land was a strange phenomena to them.
I agree with Pundit and history points to it, most of the land in RV was in the hands of the Maasai.
Also the slave traders never penetrated into East Africa for fear of the Maasai. This is a known fact and till today the Maasai have their place in the minds of Europeans as being a fearless people.
You are driving pundit to a melt down, but honestly he is telling almost the whole truth, problem with him is that he gets so ingrained in his truth and forgets other factors, like the point you raise that most of the white highlands were no man land. This is now the whole truth, but pundit attributes most of these lands to masaai occupation and over hypes masaai domination, i would think pund has some masai blood he likes repeating and resuscitation of this fact. No one refuses masaai were most dreaded in Kenya. But its laughable and idiotic to say they kept the british at the coast from fear of going inland, wah he took stale mursik on this. Another honestly silly comment is that the nandi werw the only tribe forced to pay mzungu for war, this is dumb almost all kabilas that fought mzungu were made to pay even kisii, embu, its well documented. In all white highlands were 60% no mans land then 30% Masaai land then 10% other kabilas
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You're still spinning.Brits came to Kenya because maasai started weaking around 1850..long before Railways.Maasai by around 1870 was fast losing territory.Brits were long in coast fighting slave trade..creatimg Rabai and free town of freed slaves.gain you don't
The Brits expansion to Kenya was through the construction of the Uganda Railway necessitated by fear of losing Uganda to Germany. The railway would be used to replenish their supplies and transport soldiers . The Brits feared if Germans were to get hold of lake Victoria as it was the source of River Nile it would have an impact to Egypts Suez canal which was their gateway to Asia . Upon construction of the Railway it was now easier for the m to Govern and concurrently they wanted a return on their investment , hence they promoted settlers to relocate to Kenya.
understand nomadism.Maasai didnt move completely.. and maasai territory was well known.Bantu territory in Kenya remain very tiny...even after jomo Kenyatta landgrab..there was no basis for willing buyer seller when the land had original dwellers.Why was other tribe not allowed opportunity to buy kiambu.This was a land grab pure and simple..by Kenyatta who had inherited colonial power.This is very common knowledge in rv and coast coz it's recent history..100yrs
I asked your opinion on the clashes in Narok pitting Kalenjins and Maasai and you skirted around it .Wish you would have elaborated as you have done on other posts in this thread .
In regards to your question in Kiambu . One of the reason why Colonialists established provinces and crafted they way they were was simply because there was a population boom in Kiambu and they knew it was a future problem . See the earlier settlers leased the land they had acquired to the locals(minus the reserve lands ) , secondly they compensated local labour with small pieces of land and majority of the locals became squatters . By the time independence was knocking the door there were almost 300000 people in Kiambu , simply saying it would not be viable to subdivide the land again .
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Nowayaha, you don't know history.Berlin conference settled the European dispute.It won't be until WWW 1 in 1911 that issues would arise.The British built the railway long after taking over Kenya and Uganda.They had long taken over Zanzibar which included Mombasa.They feared the interior thanks to Maasai.In fact they sneaked in and colonized Uganda first.As regards boundaries you're repeating nonsense you heard.Mzungu hired prof of survey from UK and a commission that went round the country.Kenyans wanted their tribal borders to be their district and related or friendly tribes wanted their provinces.Kiambu was white settler..kiambu itself was claimed by maasai and dorobo..part of it..the rest of kikuyu land didn't lose any land contrary to well known propaganda.Thry were given land by mzungu at edges of white highlands in exchange for labour.They were declared redundant with mechanization...thus begin this land myth.
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Totally wrong. Then Turkana and most parts of NFD are "no man's land". That expression was used by European settlers to occupy other continents. How can land that nomads use even once in a year be no man's land? Europeans were farmers and beleaved only their way of living is the right one. Communal land was a strange phenomena to them.
I agree with Pundit and history points to it, most of the land in RV was in the hands of the Maasai.
Also the slave traders never penetrated into East Africa for fear of the Maasai. This is a known fact and till today the Maasai have their place in the minds of Europeans as being a fearless people.
You are driving pundit to a melt down, but honestly he is telling almost the whole truth, problem with him is that he gets so ingrained in his truth and forgets other factors, like the point you raise that most of the white highlands were no man land. This is now the whole truth, but pundit attributes most of these lands to masaai occupation and over hypes masaai domination, i would think pund has some masai blood he likes repeating and resuscitation of this fact. No one refuses masaai were most dreaded in Kenya. But its laughable and idiotic to say they kept the british at the coast from fear of going inland, wah he took stale mursik on this. Another honestly silly comment is that the nandi werw the only tribe forced to pay mzungu for war, this is dumb almost all kabilas that fought mzungu were made to pay even kisii, embu, its well documented. In all white highlands were 60% no mans land then 30% Masaai land then 10% other kabilas
precisely
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Nowayaha, you don't know history.Berlin conference settled the European dispute.It won't be until WWW 1 in 1911 that issues would arise.The British built the railway long after taking over Kenya and Uganda.They had long taken over Zanzibar which included Mombasa.They feared the interior thanks to Maasai.In fact they sneaked in and colonized Uganda first.As regards boundaries you're repeating nonsense you heard.Mzungu hired prof of survey from UK and a commission that went round the country.Kenyans wanted their tribal borders to be their district and related or friendly tribes wanted their provinces.Kiambu was white settler..kiambu itself was claimed by maasai and dorobo..part of it..the rest of kikuyu land didn't lose any land contrary to well known propaganda.Thry were given land by mzungu at edges of white highlands in exchange for labour.They were declared redundant with mechanization...thus begin this land myth.
https://www.tesocollegealoet.sc.ug/news/the-kenya%E2%88%92uganda-railways-wild-journey-to-completion-2/
Charles Miller called it “The Lunatic Express” in his 1971 book by the same name on the history of the Kenya–Uganda railway, and the term has since entered the public imagination.
The British came up with the plan to build “the iron snake” in the 1890s to take control of Lake Victoria, the source of the Nile River. Miller wrote, “Whatever power dominates Uganda masters the Nile, the master of the Nile rules Egypt, the ruler of Egypt holds the Suez Canal.” Once they had control of the Suez Canal, the British would control trade between Europe and the rest of the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_people_in_Kenya
Although the first Land Regulations Act was passed in 1897, few Europeans settled in the country before completion of the Uganda railway. In 1902, Sir Charles Eliot, then-British Commissioner of the Protectorate, initiated a policy of settling European colonists in what would become the White Highlands region. Eliot's vision for the Protectorate was to turn the Highlands into a settlers' frontier, perceiving the region to be admirably suited for a white man's country.[5] The Crown Lands Ordinance was thus passed, allowing for Crown Land to be granted either freehold or leasehold for 99 years. Eliot believed the only way to improve the local economy and ensure the profitability of the Uganda railway, was to encourage European settlement and endeavour in hitherto large areas of uncultivated fertile land
The White Highlands
(https://images.vfl.ru/ii/1597310220/47640d99/31329953.jpg)
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You're googling as you go. British were in Mombasa by 1840s. The first church in Kenya was established in Rabai in 1840s. The British were all over coast during that period. Mombasa was the Capital of Kenya long before it became Machakos and then later Nairobi. British despite being in Kenya coast dared not enter Maasai territory - or the hinterland until late when Maasai power diminished.
Nowayaha, you don't know history.Berlin conference settled the European dispute.It won't be until WWW 1 in 1911 that issues would arise.The British built the railway long after taking over Kenya and Uganda.They had long taken over Zanzibar which included Mombasa.They feared the interior thanks to Maasai.In fact they sneaked in and colonized Uganda first.As regards boundaries you're repeating nonsense you heard.Mzungu hired prof of survey from UK and a commission that went round the country.Kenyans wanted their tribal borders to be their district and related or friendly tribes wanted their provinces.Kiambu was white settler..kiambu itself was claimed by maasai and dorobo..part of it..the rest of kikuyu land didn't lose any land contrary to well known propaganda.Thry were given land by mzungu at edges of white highlands in exchange for labour.They were declared redundant with mechanization...thus begin this land myth.
https://www.tesocollegealoet.sc.ug/news/the-kenya%E2%88%92uganda-railways-wild-journey-to-completion-2/
Charles Miller called it “The Lunatic Express” in his 1971 book by the same name on the history of the Kenya–Uganda railway, and the term has since entered the public imagination.
The British came up with the plan to build “the iron snake” in the 1890s to take control of Lake Victoria, the source of the Nile River. Miller wrote, “Whatever power dominates Uganda masters the Nile, the master of the Nile rules Egypt, the ruler of Egypt holds the Suez Canal.” Once they had control of the Suez Canal, the British would control trade between Europe and the rest of the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_people_in_Kenya
Although the first Land Regulations Act was passed in 1897, few Europeans settled in the country before completion of the Uganda railway. In 1902, Sir Charles Eliot, then-British Commissioner of the Protectorate, initiated a policy of settling European colonists in what would become the White Highlands region. Eliot's vision for the Protectorate was to turn the Highlands into a settlers' frontier, perceiving the region to be admirably suited for a white man's country.[5] The Crown Lands Ordinance was thus passed, allowing for Crown Land to be granted either freehold or leasehold for 99 years. Eliot believed the only way to improve the local economy and ensure the profitability of the Uganda railway, was to encourage European settlement and endeavour in hitherto large areas of uncultivated fertile land
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You're googling as you go.
Referencing what I pointed out . Unlike you who is mixing History and your own facts . I you could just stick to history verbatim wise without mixing with opinion or trying to justify or drive a theory
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You're googling as you go.
Referencing what I pointed out . Unlike you who is mixing History and your own facts . I you could just stick to history verbatim wise without mixing with opinion or trying to justify or drive a theory
You have knocked out pundit so many times but he doesn't want to throw in the towel. well put pundit suffers from a disorder of mixing facts with his own lofty wishes in his head.
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This pointless debate. Maa and Nandi were supreme in stone age - when spear and arrow ruled. Maa were mzungu resistors, then collaborators hired as mercenaries against Nandi. Maa occupied vastness of "Lake Turkana to Lake Tanganyika" by brutality and genocide of Bantus, Luos, etc. Lenana treaty sequestered them to Kajiado, Narok, Laikipia. So you can argue that the White Highlands belonged to Maa - then change color like a chameleon and claim Jomo "grabbed" the land in RV and Lamu. Why is the Maa displacement of others legitimate and not Kikuyu's via Jomo? No tribe dropped from the sky into their territory. At least Jomo did not use spears and arrows to displace Kalenjin and Maa. Land should be taken from NOW - and noone "owned" the land 100 years back when there were no title deeds. That's why I call the Kalenjin violence against Kikuyu or Gusii savagery. Today Maa are still walking around town with cows dressed in blanket - and Ntimama or Ledama spew some nonsense about their ancestral land. Nandi and Kipsisgis are multiplying like roaches - way behind Kikuyu fertility curve - and they want to blame mzungu or Jomo for their poverty. Land grievances are principally a failure to adapt to modernity.
I never see Kikuyu crying poor Gusii in Kiambu are land grabbers. Kalenjin hate Kikuyu for the same reason Kikuyu hate Somali - jealousy and being outshone by all metrics.
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I agree with you principally. Kikuyu paid for the land through MauMau.So they deserve that land. But like you admit savagery is savagery. You cannot codemn Maasai savegry and praise Kenyatta landgrab or codemn Kalenjin savagery. What Kenyatta did is wrong. What Kalenjin do in tribal clashes is wrong. What Maasai did those days was "probably" wrong.
Now what is right?
Anyway I agree with your conclusion. At end of the day - all land grab from Maasai, European, Kikuyu and Kalenjin is just the primitive apetite for land as source of livelihood. Once urbanization kicks in - that primitive land grab will cease.
Kalenjin especially if they don't copy Luos and Luhyas - and send their kids to urban areas to work in industries and mjengo - will soon cause very big war in rift valley that may take down kenya.
The same is true with Maasai.
This pointless debate. Maa and Nandi were supreme in stone age - when spear and arrow ruled. Maa were mzungu resistors, then collaborators hired as mercenaries against Nandi. Maa occupied vastness of "Lake Turkana to Lake Tanganyika" by brutality and genocide of Bantus, Luos, etc. Lenana treaty sequestered them to Kajiado, Narok, Laikipia. So you can argue that the White Highlands belonged to Maa - then change color like a chameleon and claim Jomo "grabbed" the land in RV and Lamu. Why is the Maa displacement of others legitimate and not Kikuyu's via Jomo? No tribe dropped from the sky into their territory. At least Jomo did not use spears and arrows to displace Kalenjin and Maa. Land should be taken from NOW - and noone "owned" the land 100 years back when there were no title deeds. That's why I call the Kalenjin violence against Kikuyu or Gusii savagery. Today Maa are still walking around town with cows dressed in blanket - and Ntimama or Ledama spew some nonsense about their ancestral land. Nandi and Kipsisgis are multiplying like roaches - way behind Kikuyu fertility curve - and they want to blame mzungu or Jomo for their poverty. Land grievances are principally a failure to adapt to modernity.
I never see Kikuyu crying poor Gusii in Kiambu are land grabbers. Kalenjin hate Kikuyu for the same reason Kikuyu hate Somali - jealousy and being outshone by all metrics.
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The line should be drawn at civilization - rule of law - especially land law and right to property. There were no human rights or title when Maa reigned supreme. Jomo had legal power to allocate the land in RV and Lamu. But today Uhuru has no such power and he is looting in stealth - unlike Jomo who baptize brazen looting as "willing buyer willing seller" - yet the very same hyena was both buyer and seller.
Maa have no right to evict Kipsigis - the riparian land or River Maa hurt them because they still rear worthless zebu which need pasture - while Githunguri dairy farmer with 20 acre is middle class. Maa violence against Kipsigis is savagery - they need to blame someone as they go extinct from absolute failure to adapt. Kipsigis or Ogiek should be handled by GoK - ideally if there was no backward politricks - the Environment CS should be Kipsigis like Isaac Rutto - or at least a Kalenjin. Which reduce the tribal sentiments tunaonewa. Ruto if he win should evict Kalenjin out of the Mau as Kibaki kicked Gema from Aberdares.
Kikuyu have right to be in RV. Kipsigis have right to be in Narok. Luo have right to be in Kibra. Gusii have right to be in Kiambu. Somali have right to be in Eastleigh. Follow the law today - not 1960 or 100 years ago.
I agree with you principally. Kikuyu paid for the land through MauMau.So they deserve that land. But like you admit savagery is savagery. You cannot codemn Maasai savegry and praise Kenyatta landgrab or codemn Kalenjin savagery. What Kenyatta did is wrong. What Kalenjin do in tribal clashes is wrong. What Maasai did those days was "probably" wrong.
Now what is right?
Anyway I agree with your conclusion. At end of the day - all land grab from Maasai, European, Kikuyu and Kalenjin is just the primitive apetite for land as source of livelihood. Once urbanization kicks in - that primitive land grab will cease.
Kalenjin especially if they don't copy Luos and Luhyas - and send their kids to urban areas to work in industries and mjengo - will soon cause very big war in rift valley that may take down kenya.
The same is true with Maasai.
This pointless debate. Maa and Nandi were supreme in stone age - when spear and arrow ruled. Maa were mzungu resistors, then collaborators hired as mercenaries against Nandi. Maa occupied vastness of "Lake Turkana to Lake Tanganyika" by brutality and genocide of Bantus, Luos, etc. Lenana treaty sequestered them to Kajiado, Narok, Laikipia. So you can argue that the White Highlands belonged to Maa - then change color like a chameleon and claim Jomo "grabbed" the land in RV and Lamu. Why is the Maa displacement of others legitimate and not Kikuyu's via Jomo? No tribe dropped from the sky into their territory. At least Jomo did not use spears and arrows to displace Kalenjin and Maa. Land should be taken from NOW - and noone "owned" the land 100 years back when there were no title deeds. That's why I call the Kalenjin violence against Kikuyu or Gusii savagery. Today Maa are still walking around town with cows dressed in blanket - and Ntimama or Ledama spew some nonsense about their ancestral land. Nandi and Kipsisgis are multiplying like roaches - way behind Kikuyu fertility curve - and they want to blame mzungu or Jomo for their poverty. Land grievances are principally a failure to adapt to modernity.
I never see Kikuyu crying poor Gusii in Kiambu are land grabbers. Kalenjin hate Kikuyu for the same reason Kikuyu hate Somali - jealousy and being outshone by all metrics.
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British used rule of law. Slavery was rule of law. Colonialism was rule of rule.
I think what is right or wrong doesn't need the law.
If it's morally repugnant or feel unjust - it's wrong.
The Maasai are starting to go extinct - and it's starting to look moral not okay to eliminate them from kajiado and narok.
The line should be drawn at civilization - rule of law - especially land law and right to property. There were no human rights or title when Maa reigned supreme. Jomo had legal power to allocate the land in RV and Lamu. But today Uhuru has no such power and he is looting in stealth - unlike Jomo who baptize brazen looting as "willing buyer willing seller" - yet the very same hyena was both buyer and seller.
Maa have no right to evict Kipsigis - the riparian land or River Maa hurt them because they still rear worthless zebu which need pasture - while Githunguri dairy farmer with 20 acre is middle class. Maa violence against Kipsigis is savagery - they need to blame someone as they go extinct from absolute failure to adapt. Kipsigis or Ogiek should be handled by GoK - ideally if there was no backward politricks - the Environment CS should be Kipsigis like Isaac Rutto - or at least a Kalenjin. Which reduce the tribal sentiments tunaonewa. Ruto if he win should evict Kalenjin out of the Mau as Kibaki kicked Gema from Aberdares.
Kikuyu have right to be in RV. Kipsigis have right to be in Narok. Luo have right to be in Kibra. Gusii have right to be in Kiambu. Somali have right to be in Eastleigh. Follow the law today - not 1960 or 100 years ago.
I agree with you principally. Kikuyu paid for the land through MauMau.So they deserve that land. But like you admit savagery is savagery. You cannot codemn Maasai savegry and praise Kenyatta landgrab or codemn Kalenjin savagery. What Kenyatta did is wrong. What Kalenjin do in tribal clashes is wrong. What Maasai did those days was "probably" wrong.
Now what is right?
Anyway I agree with your conclusion. At end of the day - all land grab from Maasai, European, Kikuyu and Kalenjin is just the primitive apetite for land as source of livelihood. Once urbanization kicks in - that primitive land grab will cease.
Kalenjin especially if they don't copy Luos and Luhyas - and send their kids to urban areas to work in industries and mjengo - will soon cause very big war in rift valley that may take down kenya.
The same is true with Maasai.
This pointless debate. Maa and Nandi were supreme in stone age - when spear and arrow ruled. Maa were mzungu resistors, then collaborators hired as mercenaries against Nandi. Maa occupied vastness of "Lake Turkana to Lake Tanganyika" by brutality and genocide of Bantus, Luos, etc. Lenana treaty sequestered them to Kajiado, Narok, Laikipia. So you can argue that the White Highlands belonged to Maa - then change color like a chameleon and claim Jomo "grabbed" the land in RV and Lamu. Why is the Maa displacement of others legitimate and not Kikuyu's via Jomo? No tribe dropped from the sky into their territory. At least Jomo did not use spears and arrows to displace Kalenjin and Maa. Land should be taken from NOW - and noone "owned" the land 100 years back when there were no title deeds. That's why I call the Kalenjin violence against Kikuyu or Gusii savagery. Today Maa are still walking around town with cows dressed in blanket - and Ntimama or Ledama spew some nonsense about their ancestral land. Nandi and Kipsisgis are multiplying like roaches - way behind Kikuyu fertility curve - and they want to blame mzungu or Jomo for their poverty. Land grievances are principally a failure to adapt to modernity.
I never see Kikuyu crying poor Gusii in Kiambu are land grabbers. Kalenjin hate Kikuyu for the same reason Kikuyu hate Somali - jealousy and being outshone by all metrics.