Author Topic: If Kalenjin win Nakuru and Narok - in near future - nearly 1/4  (Read 8821 times)

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38606
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: If Kalenjin win Nakuru and Narok - in near future - nearly 1/4
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2020, 10:29:12 AM »
You're preaching to the choir. I understand what you're saying. The problem is Kikuyu believe their own propaganda that they are popolous and somehow an injustice is committed against them. These is same wear that delayed devolution or majimbo for many years. Unfounded fears.

Kenya districts as of 1962 are nearly well done - taking care of many parameters - most importantly tribe. The British did a thorough job - and were not influenced - so they sat down, listen to folks and carved kenya into 42 district that generally reflect the tribes or sub-tribes - as kenyans wanted.

I believe the few addition - 7 - are also good.

It's going to be difficult to add - as you well know it took lots of negotiation to get 47 - so we can only play around with boundaries.

My only wish is a few corrections be made. These should correct tribal sentiments. Move Mt Elgon to Tranzoia. Move Kuria to Gusii and Move part of Gusii to Nyamira to balance out. Move part of Meru to Tharaka Nithi. Poor Iteso have done well in Busia - and there is no easy solution - so they have to merge with baluhyas.

If counties feel they are populous for example Kiambu - then move part of Kiambu (Lari-Kijabe -Ndeiya) to Nyandarua. Move part of Muranga to Kirinyanga (makuyu)? Move part of Kakamega to Vihiga.

These are issues that IEBC should embark on during the next boundary review - but I doubt the current team have the balls to do this.


Kenyatta created kirinyaga n homabay.Moi added many but those that made the cut were migori,nyamira,vihiga,bomet, tharaka and makueni.Based on current population maragua was just a kamotho thing..thika yes..and so should nakuru, bungoma and Kakamega..urban counties lack the space.The list is generally fair....GEMA need to stop believing their own propaganda.

RV you see we are now back to Naivasha talks - Moi created so and so Kenyatta created so and so .Truth be told district creation as at that time Kenya was under a centralized system  was basically  administrating and taking services to the far end areas areas (rural in these case) Example when thika was formed  Gatanga people who were closer to Thika town than Muranga town was easier for them to get government services ( from IDs to land transactions etc) Same example can be given for residents in Malindi .
When our politicians decided to change the constitution and decided to use districts as the basis and or unit of devolution , this was a far cry from what the agitators of reforms and new constitution had envisioned .But the reality is you can never run away from history , if you try to correct history you create new injustices , thats why people learn from history .
Thats why there was give and take in the naivasha talks the Trio of Uhuru Ruto Kalonzo outsmarted the Railas Mudavadis Orengos Ababu Namwambas  and the independents   the likes of Karua , Abdi Kadir and Wetangula Najib Balala

Take a look at below population census report you will realize going by counties  the so called Kalenjin counties are over represented in some cases Muranga is even 2 times the number of population of those counties . You think the Uhuru faction didnt know this ? Remember how Uhuru and Ruto were suprised during the coalition committee meeting when  Orengo stated they had no issue with a Presidential system .
Do you see similarities between  BBI , Revenue Sharing debate and the Naivasha talks , do you think the stalemate will end if we continue blaming Kenyatta and Moi or blaming over representation and under representation . Do  you see where BBI is heading to ...

Mombasa…………..…  1,208,333
Kwale……………..…… 866,820
Kilifi………………..…… 1,453,787
Tana River………….… 315,943
Lamu……………….….  143,920
Taita/Taveta……..….…340,671
Garissa……………….. 841,353
Wajir……………….…… 781,263
Mandera…………....… 867,457
Marsabit…….…........459,785
Isiolo……….…….…… 268,002
Meru…………………… 1,545,714
Tharaka-Nithi………… 393,177
Embu…………………..  608,599
Kitui……………………. 1,136,187
Machakos………….…..1,421,932
Makueni……………….  987,653
Nyandarua…………….  638,289
Nyeri…………………… 759,164
Kirinyaga……………… 610,411
Murang'a………………. 1,056,640
Kiambu……………….. 2,417,735
Turkana………………. 926,976
West Pokot……………  621,241
Samburu………………  310,327
Trans Nzoia………….. 990,341
Uasin Gishu…………..  1,163,186
Elgeyo/Marakwet……..454,480
Nandi………………….. 885,711
Baringo………………..  666,763
Laikipia………………… 518,560
Nakuru…………………2,162,202
Narok…………………  1,157,873
Kajiado……………… 1,117,840
Kericho………..……… 901,777
Bomet…………………. 875,689
Kakamega…………….  1,867,579
Vihiga…………………. 590,013
Bungoma…………..…  1,670,570
Busia…………...…….. 893,681
Siaya…………….…….. 993,183
Kisumu……………….. 1,155,574
Homa Bay…………….. 1,131,950
Migori…………………..  1,116,436
Kisii……………………  1,266,860
Nyamira………………..  605,576
Nairobi City……..……. 4,397,073

Offline gout

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 4308
  • Reputation: 1374
Re: If Kalenjin win Nakuru and Narok - in near future - nearly 1/4
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2020, 11:02:20 AM »
Kikuyu elites must be shitting bricks when they see such plus unadulterated statistics from KNBS/NSIS.

Even Kang'ata before he turned rabid had written to Tuju/Murathe that senate will be no walk in the park.
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one ~ Thomas Paine

Online Nowayhaha

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 7597
  • Reputation: 5000
Re: If Kalenjin win Nakuru and Narok - in near future - nearly 1/4
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2020, 11:51:54 AM »
Somehow they seem justified , because there is no rational why the colonial master decided to  distribute them(GEMA )  in 3 different provinces where as they are one people - Actually this was one of Karuas argument . They created 2 big provinces Rift Valley and Eastern  and a small province Central - The purpose of this was to tame the Gema as they had started rebelling and as they were the primarily workers in White farms they had started to imitate the political technique .Remember by 1920 they had a party lead by Harry Thuku \(Young Kikuyu Association . Devolution under precincts set bay colonialists was unfair . There we go again we are now on KANU Vs KADU . However as pointed out earlier I dont think correcting history is the right way to go as it creates another hitorixcal injustice .example is the ongoing debate on Revenue share . The formula they are advocating for they think will cure the  under representation is actually the wrong way to go . 
British were looking at their interests period and in such ofcourse there were some actors benefitting the KADU politicians read RG Ngala, MOI  and Masinde Muliros

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenya_African_Democratic_Union

Quote
The Kenya African Democratic Union (KADU) was a political party in Kenya. It was founded in 1960 when several leading politicians refused to join Jomo Kenyatta's Kenya African National Union (KANU). It was led by Ronald Ngala who was joined by Moi's Kalenjin Political Alliance, the Masai United Front, the Kenya African Peoples Party, the Coast African Political Union,Masinde Muliro's Baluhya Political Union and the Somali National Front.[1] The separate tribal organisations were to retain their identity and so, from the very start, KADU based its political approach on tribalism.[2]. KADU's aim was to defend the interests of the so-called KAMATUSA (an acronym for Kalenjin, Maasai, Turkana and Samburu ethnic groups) as well as the British settlers, against the imagined future dominance of the larger Luo and Kikuyu that comprised the majority of KANU's membership, when it became inevitable that Kenya will achieve its independence.[3] The KADU objective was to work towards a multiracial self government within the existing colonial political system.[1] After release of Jomo Kenyatta,KADU was becoming increasingly popular with European settlers and, on the whole, repudiated Kenyatta's leadership.[4] KADU's plan at Lancaster meetings was devised by European supporters, essentially to protect prevailing British settlers land rights.

You're preaching to the choir. I understand what you're saying. The problem is Kikuyu believe their own propaganda that they are popolous and somehow an injustice is committed against them. These is same wear that delayed devolution or majimbo for many years. Unfounded fears.

Kenya districts as of 1962 are nearly well done - taking care of many parameters - most importantly tribe. The British did a thorough job - and were not influenced - so they sat down, listen to folks and carved kenya into 42 district that generally reflect the tribes or sub-tribes - as kenyans wanted.

I believe the few addition - 7 - are also good.

It's going to be difficult to add - as you well know it took lots of negotiation to get 47 - so we can only play around with boundaries.

My only wish is a few corrections be made. These should correct tribal sentiments. Move Mt Elgon to Tranzoia. Move Kuria to Gusii and Move part of Gusii to Nyamira to balance out. Move part of Meru to Tharaka Nithi. Poor Iteso have done well in Busia - and there is no easy solution - so they have to merge with baluhyas.

If counties feel they are populous for example Kiambu - then move part of Kiambu (Lari-Kijabe -Ndeiya) to Nyandarua. Move part of Muranga to Kirinyanga (makuyu)? Move part of Kakamega to Vihiga.

These are issues that IEBC should embark on during the next boundary review - but I doubt the current team have the balls to do this.


Kenyatta created kirinyaga n homabay.Moi added many but those that made the cut were migori,nyamira,vihiga,bomet, tharaka and makueni.Based on current population maragua was just a kamotho thing..thika yes..and so should nakuru, bungoma and Kakamega..urban counties lack the space.The list is generally fair....GEMA need to stop believing their own propaganda.

RV you see we are now back to Naivasha talks - Moi created so and so Kenyatta created so and so .Truth be told district creation as at that time Kenya was under a centralized system  was basically  administrating and taking services to the far end areas areas (rural in these case) Example when thika was formed  Gatanga people who were closer to Thika town than Muranga town was easier for them to get government services ( from IDs to land transactions etc) Same example can be given for residents in Malindi .
When our politicians decided to change the constitution and decided to use districts as the basis and or unit of devolution , this was a far cry from what the agitators of reforms and new constitution had envisioned .But the reality is you can never run away from history , if you try to correct history you create new injustices , thats why people learn from history .
Thats why there was give and take in the naivasha talks the Trio of Uhuru Ruto Kalonzo outsmarted the Railas Mudavadis Orengos Ababu Namwambas  and the independents   the likes of Karua , Abdi Kadir and Wetangula Najib Balala

Take a look at below population census report you will realize going by counties  the so called Kalenjin counties are over represented in some cases Muranga is even 2 times the number of population of those counties . You think the Uhuru faction didnt know this ? Remember how Uhuru and Ruto were suprised during the coalition committee meeting when  Orengo stated they had no issue with a Presidential system .
Do you see similarities between  BBI , Revenue Sharing debate and the Naivasha talks , do you think the stalemate will end if we continue blaming Kenyatta and Moi or blaming over representation and under representation . Do  you see where BBI is heading to ...

Mombasa…………..…  1,208,333
Kwale……………..…… 866,820
Kilifi………………..…… 1,453,787
Tana River………….… 315,943
Lamu……………….….  143,920
Taita/Taveta……..….…340,671
Garissa……………….. 841,353
Wajir……………….…… 781,263
Mandera…………....… 867,457
Marsabit…….…........459,785
Isiolo……….…….…… 268,002
Meru…………………… 1,545,714
Tharaka-Nithi………… 393,177
Embu…………………..  608,599
Kitui……………………. 1,136,187
Machakos………….…..1,421,932
Makueni……………….  987,653
Nyandarua…………….  638,289
Nyeri…………………… 759,164
Kirinyaga……………… 610,411
Murang'a………………. 1,056,640
Kiambu……………….. 2,417,735
Turkana………………. 926,976
West Pokot……………  621,241
Samburu………………  310,327
Trans Nzoia………….. 990,341
Uasin Gishu…………..  1,163,186
Elgeyo/Marakwet……..454,480
Nandi………………….. 885,711
Baringo………………..  666,763
Laikipia………………… 518,560
Nakuru…………………2,162,202
Narok…………………  1,157,873
Kajiado……………… 1,117,840
Kericho………..……… 901,777
Bomet…………………. 875,689
Kakamega…………….  1,867,579
Vihiga…………………. 590,013
Bungoma…………..…  1,670,570
Busia…………...…….. 893,681
Siaya…………….…….. 993,183
Kisumu……………….. 1,155,574
Homa Bay…………….. 1,131,950
Migori…………………..  1,116,436
Kisii……………………  1,266,860
Nyamira………………..  605,576
Nairobi City……..……. 4,397,073

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38606
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: If Kalenjin win Nakuru and Narok - in near future - nearly 1/4
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2020, 12:49:58 PM »
There you go with revisionism.kikuyu were exclusive in central.kenyatta regime moved millions to rift valley and lamu.1962 were well done.Kikuyu in rv were very few workere.. majority kicked out by tractors in 1930s..nearly all by Italian pow who grabbed Africa reserves after serving their British master for war crimes.the whole of naivasha, nyandarua,nakuru and uasin ngishu were white highlands and land originally belonged to maasai and kalenjin..kamatusa wanted to be together in rift valley..luhya in Western..kikuyus in central.I encourage you to read the boundaries report of 1962.Btw 1963 and 1973.. Kenyatta shipped a million kikuyus, Luos, luhyas and gusii to rift valley to occupy the 2 m acres left vacant by the departing from kenya.Thus begin the genesis of land grievance in rift valley and central

Online Nowayhaha

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 7597
  • Reputation: 5000
Re: If Kalenjin win Nakuru and Narok - in near future - nearly 1/4
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2020, 01:50:25 PM »
There you go with revisionism.kikuyu were exclusive in central.kenyatta regime moved millions to rift valley and lamu.1962 were well done.Kikuyu in rv were very few workere.. majority kicked out by tractors in 1930s..nearly all by Italian pow who grabbed Africa reserves after serving their British master for war crimes.the whole of naivasha, nyandarua,nakuru and uasin ngishu were white highlands and land originally belonged to maasai and kalenjin..kamatusa wanted to be together in rift valley..luhya in Western..kikuyus in central.I encourage you to read the boundaries report of 1962.Btw 1963 and 1973.. Kenyatta shipped a million kikuyus, Luos, luhyas and gusii to rift valley to occupy the 2 m acres left vacant by the departing from kenya.Thus begin the genesis of land grievance in rift valley and central

Lets go back to see how white highlands  came about .

http://www.icwa.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/IMW-22.pdf


Quote
In Kenya the alienation of land for European occupation ex- clusively has  long been a source of discontent,  and only recently has  this policy been modified.
The problems it has raised have political aspects as well as  tremendous  emotional overtones.   
Of Kenya's 220,000 square miles about 40,000 are almost uninhabitable desert, about 110,000 are  at present  either not used at all by man or only very thinly populated, 
mostly by nomads,  and about 2,000 comprise  the  coastal belt,  most of which  is not concerned with  present-day agrarian problems. This  accounts for about two-thirds of Kenya.

The remaining  third,  in which 90% of  the  population lives,  is  the  agriculturally productive part of Kenya.   It was from  this  land that  the White Highlands were alienated   (see map on page two).   
The total area of  the Highlands was 16,196  square miles  of which only 11,724 were  actually alienated. The  difference  consists mainly of forest reserves (only 3% of  the  total area of Kenya,  one of the
lowest proportions in the world),  national parks,  craters and lakes. The rest of  the  land was reserved for African ownership.


Quote
In order to understand how this  situation came  to be,  one must return to  the  period of  early European  settlement. At  the  turn of  the  century all  the available  evidence  tended to  show there were
very large unoccupied areas  in Kenya. Under this  assumption European settlers have been permitted,  indeed often encouraged,  to acquire title to  land since   1901.
Some was freehold but most was  leasehold for a period of up to 999 years.   In 1915 the Governor was given power to control land transfers between members of different races, a measure designed to prevent the sale of land to Asians

Quote
Surrounding tribes,  mainly Kikuyu,  claimed that the land, although unused by them when it was bought,  was in fact theirs by custom.
This  claim combined with the Africans'  growing insecurity on his  own  land due  to  a vacillating land policy led to  the appointment in 1933 of a Land Commission presided over by Sir Morris Carter.
It was  to  investigate  these African claims  and also  to define the limits of  the Highlands in which Europeans,  in accordance with the White Paper of 1923,  "were  to have a privileged position".

Quote
The Carter Commission approached its  task on racial lines and set up reserves for most  tribes as well as a reserve,  the Highlands, for Europeans.
Each was given specific boundaries,  and a highly segregated system of land ownership developed.   
With  such strong guarantees farmers in the Highlands have maintained European farming standards and have  become  the  core of Kenya's  agricultural  economy,
producing a large proportion of  its wealth.


Quote
We  decided to spend some  time in the Highlands and find out what's going on.   
Our first stop was Nanyuki,  a small  town to  the west of Mount Kenya.   It's  some   6,400  feet high;  so  the air was  clear and fresh in  the  daytime  and cold at night.
We  checked in at  the Silverbeck Hotel which boasts a bar bisected by the  equator and were relieved to  see
 that our room not only had a view right  on to Mount Kenya's rocky crags but also a fireplace which burned aromatic cedar logs

After its  climate  and beauty Nanyuki is known as a town largely populated by characters,  most of whom don't  speak  to  each other. Such is  life  among East Africa's  pioneersjDutsoalso is warm hospitality,
and we  enjoyed more than our share. We first visited one of the  earliest settlers who  came to Nanyuki  in 1912 when the  area was empty save for a few wandering Masai  and Kikuyu and of course  the numerous wild animals.

.




Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38606
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: If Kalenjin win Nakuru and Narok - in near future - nearly 1/4
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2020, 02:00:00 PM »
Condense that..biggest of white highlands were concession away by Lenana the Maasai chief..the rest were small patches taken either as war reparations or etc.Lenana gave out Nairobi, parts Nakuru, Nyandarua,laikipia..uasin ngishu and tranzoia were declared vacant and occupied by Force.Kiambu and part of muranga was also occupied I think by force.Lenana signed out most of rift valley in exchange of being left to run narok-kajaido and North laikipia in the Anglo maasai treaty

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38606
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: If Kalenjin win Nakuru and Narok - in near future - nearly 1/4
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2020, 02:06:10 PM »
There were two Anglo maasai treaties..1904 and 1911.This is the 1911 http://www.geocities.ws/olmorijo/maasai_agreement_1911.htm

Offline Njuri Ncheke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2731
  • Reputation: 5000
Re: If Kalenjin win Nakuru and Narok - in near future - nearly 1/4
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2020, 02:16:58 PM »
Pundit tell me why part of Meru should be moved to tharaka nithi?

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38606
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: If Kalenjin win Nakuru and Narok - in near future - nearly 1/4
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2020, 02:24:33 PM »
Pundit tell me why part of Meru should be moved to tharaka nithi?
To balance the population..reduce imentis sitting on all of you.Meru has 9 sub tribes split them into 4-5 btw the two counties

Offline Kadudu

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 4494
  • Reputation: 1411
Re: If Kalenjin win Nakuru and Narok - in near future - nearly 1/4
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2020, 02:29:27 PM »
The population in Tharaka-Nithi is reducing drastically. I hear they are all moving to Nairobi. The current population in Tharaka Nithi is lower than the votes cast there in the presidential elections in 2007. :D :D :D

Pundit tell me why part of Meru should be moved to tharaka nithi?

Offline Njuri Ncheke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2731
  • Reputation: 5000
Re: If Kalenjin win Nakuru and Narok - in near future - nearly 1/4
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2020, 02:31:06 PM »
Pundit tell me why part of Meru should be moved to tharaka nithi?
To balance the population..reduce imentis sitting on all of you.Meru has 9 sub tribes split them into 4-5 btw the two counties
That would never work, there was an injustice in the creation of counties, Tigania igembes would want their own county Nyambene. They would never want to be in Tharaka Nithi and they wouldn't be welcomed their. Imentis the same, but as of now you can't please everyone

Offline Njuri Ncheke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2731
  • Reputation: 5000
Re: If Kalenjin win Nakuru and Narok - in near future - nearly 1/4
« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2020, 02:47:37 PM »
The population in Tharaka-Nithi is reducing drastically. I hear they are all moving to Nairobi. The current population in Tharaka Nithi is lower than the votes cast there in the presidential elections in 2007. :D :D :D

Pundit tell me why part of Meru should be moved to tharaka nithi?
Yes Tharaka Nithi with serious depopulation, most moving to  Meru County and secondly Nairobi. There lots of Tharaka and Chuka in Meru county they settle into the local population well and do not want to go back they have bought farms, actually they are even soo deep in Northern Meru where it used to be Just Tigania and Igembe. Going forward Tharaka nithi population might all end up in meru living TNC empty.

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38606
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: If Kalenjin win Nakuru and Narok - in near future - nearly 1/4
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2020, 03:03:48 PM »
I thought there was iron ore in tharaka..they need to develop it.

Offline Kadudu

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 4494
  • Reputation: 1411
Re: If Kalenjin win Nakuru and Narok - in near future - nearly 1/4
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2020, 05:49:24 PM »
Are you still in denial Kibaki stole the election in 2007? Even my diehard Mt Kenya friends would today not dare deny the obvious.

So you group Kalenjin together and then in Mt Kenya you only drop name Kikuyu.
You also go ahead and Group Nairobi as a Kalenjin County.
You know i n 2013 ams 2017 UhuRuto knew they were going to win by virtue of numbers , their worry was senate and governors. Instead of them sitting preetry and alluding to the numbers like you have done , they startegized how to win North Eastern in as much as voters numbers there cannot be compared to Rift Valley and My Kenya , the senator numbers and Governor numbers are substantial and they can affirm a win. Thats How they were able to convince the world they won both elections unlike kibaki in 2007 when he lost the propaganda war and ODM used Mp numbers to tell the world Kibaki didnt win.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8784
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: If Kalenjin win Nakuru and Narok - in near future - nearly 1/4
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2020, 06:00:00 PM »
Are you still in denial Kibaki stole the election in 2007? Even my diehard Mt Kenya friends would today not dare deny the obvious.

So you group Kalenjin together and then in Mt Kenya you only drop name Kikuyu.
You also go ahead and Group Nairobi as a Kalenjin County.
You know i n 2013 ams 2017 UhuRuto knew they were going to win by virtue of numbers , their worry was senate and governors. Instead of them sitting preetry and alluding to the numbers like you have done , they startegized how to win North Eastern in as much as voters numbers there cannot be compared to Rift Valley and My Kenya , the senator numbers and Governor numbers are substantial and they can affirm a win. Thats How they were able to convince the world they won both elections unlike kibaki in 2007 when he lost the propaganda war and ODM used Mp numbers to tell the world Kibaki didnt win.

I can see someone debating 2013 and 2017(even though I am sure those were stolen too).  Debating 2007 is beyond the pale.  I know die-hard Kibaki supporters who agreed, even at the time, that it was stolen.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Njuri Ncheke

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2731
  • Reputation: 5000
Re: If Kalenjin win Nakuru and Narok - in near future - nearly 1/4
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2020, 06:59:06 PM »
I thought there was iron ore in tharaka..they need to develop it.
Not just Iron ore there are other minerals there but as you know Kenya lacks capacity, if oil has failed in turkana we won't crack any other minerals. We need just a strong private mining enterprise to fill the gap for the government. I have been to remote areas of Tharaka was trading in sand i used to buy a lorry cheap at 3k and sell it in towns at 7-9k was blissful business. Oh i remember those days was single then  had all the fun in the world but stopped when I settled down.

Online Nowayhaha

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 7597
  • Reputation: 5000
Re: If Kalenjin win Nakuru and Narok - in near future - nearly 1/4
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2020, 10:23:47 PM »
Condense that..biggest of white highlands were concession away by Lenana the Maasai chief..the rest were small patches taken either as war reparations or etc.Lenana gave out Nairobi, parts Nakuru, Nyandarua,laikipia..uasin ngishu and tranzoia were declared vacant and occupied by Force.Kiambu and part of muranga was also occupied I think by force.Lenana signed out most of rift valley in exchange of being left to run narok-kajaido and North laikipia in the Anglo maasai treaty

The white highlands were  created from the following moving aficans to reserves (read Kikuyu),Lenanas treaty which essentially gave away Lower Laikipia and Samburu lands and vast unused land (read Nakuru and Elementaita etc)

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38606
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: If Kalenjin win Nakuru and Narok - in near future - nearly 1/4
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2020, 10:37:30 PM »
You need to step out of your own propaganda and learn the truth.
Before I respond I challenge you to show me White Highlands in Nyeri or Muranga (apart from Delmonto-Kakuzi).
In Nyeri - British probably "took" only the catholic land. This was normally donated to missionaries by converted Africa and was used for public good - schools and hospitals.
Show me white highlands in Embu or Meru.
Show me white highlands in Kirinyanga or Tharaka
The only white highlands were in Kiambu.
Show me kikuyus displaced in Kiambu.
Mzungu mainly took forested land in Kiambu mostly - and the land - that they thought belonged to Maasai or Dorobo (maasai speaking aborginal or okiek)
There were few disputed land in Nairobi and Kiambu - which belong to either Maasai or Dorobo - but which Kikuyus laid claim.

Kikuyus are really very "funny" people - through some "mass" hysteria - they turned history upside down.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/14/kenya

The White Highlands were never part of Kikuyuland. They were occupied by Masai nomads who agreed to turn the highlands over for settlement under two formal treaties in 1904 and 1911.

Mwafrika is a funny person.

Let me speak for Kipsigis for example.

Mzungu indeed took took 3 land
1) Kericho tea farms - most of it were mau forest - but evicted a few families on edges. Kipsigis have changed the story of course.
2) They also curve a 10 mile stretch btw Kipsigis and gusii to stop the tribal clashes btw them.
3) Later they also took some few land to seperate Kispigis from Luos - these were lated handed over to Indians to grow sugar cane. Luos claim this was their land - but of course muhoroni or chemelil are Kalenjin land.

Nandi after losing their 10-15 yr war with British - were fined heavily.
They were fined in thousands of cattle and land.
That I think is probably only African natives who lost land due to war repartation.
Many Nandis were evicted to create land - and many of them left Nandi for Luhya, Uganda, kipsigis and Tanzania. Some went to Pokot.
They basically woke up and moved with their cattle - unable to stomach losing them and their land.
Many of them didn't want to lose land and their cattle.
They Nandi also laid claim to Uasin Gishu having just beaten the Maasai there - but uasin gishu was really no man lands btw maasai, keiyos and nandis.
It was nearly empty pasture land - where you cattle would be stolen anytime.

What land did Kikuyus lose? Not much. Actually maybe NOTHING.

Not much. Actually nothing if you consider the Kiambu land were disputed by Maasai and Ogiek. For example Tigoni -Limuru were disputed by Dorobo - and Kikuyus immigrants from Muranga were just leasing them.
I believe Kikuyus had reached ruiru-gatundu - as land owners - but were leasing forest edges from Dorobo - in upper kiambu (limuru-dagoretti)

What Kikuyus lose and what led to Mau.

They basically lost jobs in rift valley as Mzungu farm workers.

This started around mid 1930-1940s - there was huge displacement of Kikuyu and kalenjin farm hands from mzungu (maasai) farms
This happened after mzungu imported tractors and farm machinery.
My own great grandfather felt victim - was kicked out of now Nyamiria-Borabu with his oxen - to native reserves at edge of Borabu settlement scheme.
My own grandfather and grandmother were born in Mzungu scheme - around 1910s -1920s - right there in now Borabu.
My great grandfather brother got a job to drive a tractor in Molo around that time - and he recall Molo as huge grass thatched town of kikuyu workers
His other brother got a job in Naivasha to work for Mzungu - who eventually burnt him alive for contracting Small pox - was like Corona then.
His wife recalls - the Mzungu burning their grass thatched house with him inside. This was Mzungu way to deal with small pox.

The next displacement would happen in 1950s - after Italians POW having served their "prison" - were granted african reserves.
 They had spent 5 years building roads, bridges and anything the British fancied with free labour from their skilled prisoners.
They were rewarded by creation of new lands - mostly in native or african reserves at edges of the white highlands
These italian POW were noted for their harshness...they were mostly military officers arrested in Somalia and a few germans from Tanganyika.
They kicked Africans right into their reserves....and thus began MAUMAU.

Most notably around molo and nakuru...the 1952 eviction of Kikuyus from Olenguoreno (by Italians) - and dumping them in Kiambu Lari that began MauMau (Mungiki)

This led to next wave of Kikuyus being sent back to Central.

And thus began the problem.

Otherwise Luhyas, Luos, Kambas, Kikuyus, many kenya tribes name them LOST NOT if any land

I would say 90% of the land was from Maasai - Including Delmonte - Maasai territory extended from Oldonyo Sabuk - that is Thika all the way to Machakos that we know - I mean all that Tala-Kangundo - Konza - Nairobi - embaksai - ruiru- juja - name them. Nairobi - all the way to Nakuru - Nyandarua- Naivasha - Laikipia -Timau -  - all the way to Tranzoai - where last Maasai (Elgon Maasai) lived.

Once the Brits had signed the deal with Maasai. It was over.

They took over the Kenya - for Maasai owned Kenya - right from few kilometers from Mombasa to Mt elgon - from the foot of Lake Turkana to Tanzania.


The white highlands were  created from the following moving aficans to reserves (read Kikuyu),Lenanas treaty which essentially gave away Lower Laikipia and Samburu lands and vast unused land (read Nakuru and Elementaita etc)


Online Nowayhaha

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 7597
  • Reputation: 5000
Re: If Kalenjin win Nakuru and Narok - in near future - nearly 1/4
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2020, 11:23:17 PM »
You need to step out of your own propaganda and learn the truth.
Before I respond I challenge you to show me White Highlands in Nyeri or Muranga (apart from Delmonto-Kakuzi).
In Nyeri - British probably "took" only the catholic land. This was normally donated to missionaries by converted Africa and was used for public good - schools and hospitals.
Show me white highlands in Embu or Meru.
Show me white highlands in Kirinyanga or Tharaka
The only white highlands were in Kiambu.
Show me kikuyus displaced in Kiambu.
Mzungu mainly took forested land in Kiambu mostly - and the land - that they thought belonged to Maasai or Dorobo (maasai speaking aborginal or okiek)
There were few disputed land in Nairobi and Kiambu - which belong to either Maasai or Dorobo - but which Kikuyus laid claim.

Kikuyus are really very "funny" people - through some "mass" hysteria - they turned history upside down.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/14/kenya

The White Highlands were never part of Kikuyuland. They were occupied by Masai nomads who agreed to turn the highlands over for settlement under two formal treaties in 1904 and 1911.

Mwafrika is a funny person.

Let me speak for Kipsigis for example.

Mzungu indeed took took 3 land
1) Kericho tea farms - most of it were mau forest - but evicted a few families on edges. Kipsigis have changed the story of course.
2) They also curve a 10 mile stretch btw Kipsigis and gusii to stop the tribal clashes btw them.
3) Later they also took some few land to seperate Kispigis from Luos - these were lated handed over to Indians to grow sugar cane. Luos claim this was their land - but of course muhoroni or chemelil are Kalenjin land.

Nandi after losing their 10-15 yr war with British - were fined heavily.
They were fined in thousands of cattle and land.
That I think is probably only African natives who lost land due to war repartation.
Many Nandis were evicted to create land - and many of them left Nandi for Luhya, Uganda, kipsigis and Tanzania. Some went to Pokot.
They basically woke up and moved with their cattle - unable to stomach losing them and their land.
Many of them didn't want to lose land and their cattle.
They Nandi also laid claim to Uasin Gishu having just beaten the Maasai there - but uasin gishu was really no man lands btw maasai, keiyos and nandis.
It was nearly empty pasture land - where you cattle would be stolen anytime.

What land did Kikuyus lose? Not much. Actually maybe NOTHING.

Not much. Actually nothing if you consider the Kiambu land were disputed by Maasai and Ogiek. For example Tigoni -Limuru were disputed by Dorobo - and Kikuyus immigrants from Muranga were just leasing them.
I believe Kikuyus had reached ruiru-gatundu - as land owners - but were leasing forest edges from Dorobo - in upper kiambu (limuru-dagoretti)

What Kikuyus lose and what led to Mau.

They basically lost jobs in rift valley as Mzungu farm workers.

This started around mid 1930-1940s - there was huge displacement of Kikuyu and kalenjin farm hands from mzungu (maasai) farms
This happened after mzungu imported tractors and farm machinery.
My own great grandfather felt victim - was kicked out of now Nyamiria-Borabu with his oxen - to native reserves at edge of Borabu settlement scheme.
My own grandfather and grandmother were born in Mzungu scheme - around 1910s -1920s - right there in now Borabu.
My great grandfather brother got a job to drive a tractor in Molo around that time - and he recall Molo as huge grass thatched town of kikuyu workers
His other brother got a job in Naivasha to work for Mzungu - who eventually burnt him alive for contracting Small pox - was like Corona then.
His wife recalls - the Mzungu burning their grass thatched house with him inside. This was Mzungu way to deal with small pox.

The next displacement would happen in 1950s - after Italians POW having served their "prison" - were granted african reserves.
 They had spent 5 years building roads, bridges and anything the British fancied with free labour from their skilled prisoners.
They were rewarded by creation of new lands - mostly in native or african reserves at edges of the white highlands
These italian POW were noted for their harshness...they were mostly military officers arrested in Somalia and a few germans from Tanganyika.
They kicked Africans right into their reserves....and thus began MAUMAU.

Most notably around molo and nakuru...the 1952 eviction of Kikuyus from Olenguoreno (by Italians) - and dumping them in Kiambu Lari that began MauMau (Mungiki)

This led to next wave of Kikuyus being sent back to Central.

And thus began the problem.

Otherwise Luhyas, Luos, Kambas, Kikuyus, many kenya tribes name them LOST NOT if any land

I would say 90% of the land was from Maasai - Including Delmonte - Maasai territory extended from Oldonyo Sabuk - that is Thika all the way to Machakos that we know - I mean all that Tala-Kangundo - Konza - Nairobi - embaksai - ruiru- juja - name them. Nairobi - all the way to Nakuru - Nyandarua- Naivasha - Laikipia -Timau -  - all the way to Tranzoai - where last Maasai (Elgon Maasai) lived.

Once the Brits had signed the deal with Maasai. It was over.

They took over the Kenya - for Maasai owned Kenya - right from few kilometers from Mombasa to Mt elgon - from the foot of Lake Turkana to Tanzania.


The white highlands were  created from the following moving aficans to reserves (read Kikuyu),Lenanas treaty which essentially gave away Lower Laikipia and Samburu lands and vast unused land (read Nakuru and Elementaita etc)



https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/36695659.pdf

Quote
The expansive system of railroads had a particularly profound effect on the land
and many of the Kikuyu living in the area. The Kikuyu would soon be displaced to make
room for British farms and families. The Kikuyu, together with the Embu and Meru,
constituted the largest single group of native peoples living in East Africa during the
1950s, with an estimated number of approximately half a million. The area in which this
tribe lived consisted of a strip of land along the eastern side of the Aberdare (Aberdeen)
Mountain forest and around the southern and western sides of the Mount Kenya forest.
This area, in addition to the mountains themselves and the settled British areas of the
agricultural land, would form the area in which the Kenyan Emergency would occur.
The entire area was a space approximately one hundred miles from north to south and
somewhat less from east to west (Kitson, p. 4).

The Kikuyu, Embu, and Meru were not just kicked off the land and told to seek
refuge elsewhere, but were and compensated in various ways. One such practice of
supposed compensation was for Kikuyu villages to be allowed to remain on the fringes of
British farms where they would work and earn wages from British settlers. The land on
which they traditionally farmed or grazed their livestock became British farms and the
Kikuyu were used much as were sharecroppers or squatters in the south of the United
States. In being permitted to stay they had to, in turn, work for the British for relatively
low wages. However, with more and more settlers moving into the East African pastoral
lands, the Kikuyu often also found themselves being uprooted and moved time and time
again.

Quote
Economic aspirations were not the only goals of the British colonial effort.
Unlike other colonial powers, Britain felt it had an obligation to “civilize” the backwards,
native people living in the colonies. The British felt it was their responsibility to
transform the local people into productive citizens and bring them into the light of the
modern world so they might have a role in their own governance, but more importantly
so they might share in the responsibility and the maintenance of colonies such as Kenya.
The British built churches and sent missionaries to East Africa in an attempt to civilize
the native peoples and put an end to many of their “heathen” practices. These religious
reforms, along with the practice of displacing Kikuyu from their native lands to make
room for British settlers, would become the seeds of unrest in Kenya.

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38606
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: If Kalenjin win Nakuru and Narok - in near future - nearly 1/4
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2020, 11:34:12 PM »
Baseless propaganda
Show me land in Embu or Nyeri or name them where British farmers lived.
If it's railways, roads and all that - all the tribe lost.
And that was at best 100m corridor.

Name two or 3 white farmers who lived in Muranga or Nyeri

White highlands were in Kiambu, Machakos, Kajiado, Makueni, Taita, name them, nakuru, nyandarua, laikipia, uasin gishu and transzoia.

And Nairobi of course.

And it was mostly Maasai land that were formally handed over.

The dispute arise in a few arise where say Kikuyus had overrun Maasai or Meru or kipsigis or Nandis or name...would claim the Maasai handed over areas they had lost control.

Except Kipgisis and Nandis...and maybe small pieces here and there...the rest of the tribes never lost any land to Mzungu. They lost personal freedoms and all that.

Otherwise show me Mzungu farm in West Pokot or Elgeyo Marakwet or Siaya.


Quote
Economic aspirations were not the only goals of the British colonial effort.
Unlike other colonial powers, Britain felt it had an obligation to “civilize” the backwards,
native people living in the colonies. The British felt it was their responsibility to
transform the local people into productive citizens and bring them into the light of the
modern world so they might have a role in their own governance, but more importantly
so they might share in the responsibility and the maintenance of colonies such as Kenya.
The British built churches and sent missionaries to East Africa in an attempt to civilize
the native peoples and put an end to many of their “heathen” practices. These religious
reforms, along with the practice of displacing Kikuyu from their native lands to make
room for British settlers, would become the seeds of unrest in Kenya.