Nipate
Forum => Controversial => Topic started by: Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants on April 24, 2015, 12:47:46 AM
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An Italian nun, to be beatified in Nyeri. If my understanding is correct, no local native, with full melanin component, could be found within the area worthy of the honor.
Venerable Irene Stefani (22 August 1891 - 31 October 1930), born Aurelia Mercede Stefani, was a Roman Catholic Italian nun and a member of the Consolata Missionary Sisters. She assumed the name "Irene" upon entrance into that order. Stefani was cleared for beatification in 2014 after a miracle found to have been attributed to her intercession was ratified, and she will be beatified on 23 May 2015 in Nyeri.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irene_Stefani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irene_Stefani)
http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/thecounties/article/2000159561/church-ready-for-sister-nyaatha-beatification-but-can-state-county-say-the-same
http://www.irenestefani.altervista.org/inglese/biografia_en.html (http://www.irenestefani.altervista.org/inglese/biografia_en.html)
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Well, natives have been catholic less than a century. And the nun is from a time when there were probably no native sisters at all. This is par for the course. Cardinal Otunga should be on his way very soon, only died about 10 years ago, so there's your native. :zen: Saints are not exactly common, Terminator, there are very few canonized saints outside Europe, including even bazungu countries like the USA et al, that have had catholics far longer than Kenya, but have very few "locally-produced" canonized saints. Uganda has several....all native. :D One of my favorite saints is a black Sudanese, St. Josephine Bakhita. Her story is very sad, a victim of slavery, you should read about her.
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTbpp6NxjUupU0qazRHatcA16Flb8r_yqgQMONlVijAP7PK-TS4kA)
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So this will make Nyaatha a saint? How is a saint made? At best I would call this a beautification ceremony. As in attempting to make a dead woman more beautiful by adding a pile of religious make-up. Luckily it will revamp tourism.
An Italian nun, to be beatified in Nyeri. If my understanding is correct, no local native, with full melanin component, could be found within the area worthy of the honor.
Venerable Irene Stefani (22 August 1891 - 31 October 1930), born Aurelia Mercede Stefani, was a Roman Catholic Italian nun and a member of the Consolata Missionary Sisters. She assumed the name "Irene" upon entrance into that order. Stefani was cleared for beatification in 2014 after a miracle found to have been attributed to her intercession was ratified, and she will be beatified on 23 May 2015 in Nyeri.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irene_Stefani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irene_Stefani)
http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/thecounties/article/2000159561/church-ready-for-sister-nyaatha-beatification-but-can-state-county-say-the-same
http://www.irenestefani.altervista.org/inglese/biografia_en.html (http://www.irenestefani.altervista.org/inglese/biografia_en.html)
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So this will make Nyaatha a saint? How is a saint made? At best I would call this a beautification ceremony. As in attempting to make a dead woman more beautiful by adding a pile of religious make-up. Luckily it will revamp tourism.
An Italian nun, to be beatified in Nyeri. If my understanding is correct, no local native, with full melanin component, could be found within the area worthy of the honor.
Venerable Irene Stefani (22 August 1891 - 31 October 1930), born Aurelia Mercede Stefani, was a Roman Catholic Italian nun and a member of the Consolata Missionary Sisters. She assumed the name "Irene" upon entrance into that order. Stefani was cleared for beatification in 2014 after a miracle found to have been attributed to her intercession was ratified, and she will be beatified on 23 May 2015 in Nyeri.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irene_Stefani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irene_Stefani)
http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/thecounties/article/2000159561/church-ready-for-sister-nyaatha-beatification-but-can-state-county-say-the-same (http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/thecounties/article/2000159561/church-ready-for-sister-nyaatha-beatification-but-can-state-county-say-the-same)
http://www.irenestefani.altervista.org/inglese/biografia_en.html (http://www.irenestefani.altervista.org/inglese/biografia_en.html)
I believe the logic is that she is already one. That this is merely a formality. Veneration of saints is a big deal in the Catholic church.
@Bella,
I just thought it would have been nice to the sensibilities of the locals. To not beatify a muzungu in their backyard. Not even a token local of the Kalulu variety to escort her.
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So this will make Nyaatha a saint? How is a saint made? At best I would call this a beautification ceremony. As in attempting to make a dead woman more beautiful by adding a pile of religious make-up. Luckily it will revamp tourism.
An Italian nun, to be beatified in Nyeri. If my understanding is correct, no local native, with full melanin component, could be found within the area worthy of the honor.
Venerable Irene Stefani (22 August 1891 - 31 October 1930), born Aurelia Mercede Stefani, was a Roman Catholic Italian nun and a member of the Consolata Missionary Sisters. She assumed the name "Irene" upon entrance into that order. Stefani was cleared for beatification in 2014 after a miracle found to have been attributed to her intercession was ratified, and she will be beatified on 23 May 2015 in Nyeri.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irene_Stefani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irene_Stefani)
http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/thecounties/article/2000159561/church-ready-for-sister-nyaatha-beatification-but-can-state-county-say-the-same
http://www.irenestefani.altervista.org/inglese/biografia_en.html (http://www.irenestefani.altervista.org/inglese/biografia_en.html)
Saints are made by the Holy Spirit starting the moment the person turns his life over to God, culminating when they enter heaven at death. When the church canonizes someone, what she is saying is that she believes that this person is in heaven and their lives can serve as examples of Christian living to those on earth. Heroic virtue.
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Bella thanks for the response and good to see you post.
Saints are made by the Holy Spirit starting the moment the person turns his life over to God, culminating when they enter heaven at death.
Really? Do you have any examples where the Holy Spirit made someone a saint in this manner? Is there a biblical example of such a person entering heaven at death?
When the church canonizes someone, what she is saying is that she believes that this person is in heaven and their lives can serve as examples of Christian living to those on earth. Heroic virtue.
Is there a biblical basis for canonizing people? Why should the church rather than God decide who is in heaven or who goes to heaven? What about those who are dead but not canonized by the church - where are they from what the Bible says? Why is their destiny decided differently and by whom? An good people who die and are not canonized serve as examples too?
Christians follow the Bible. Should anybody be found follow to anything else, should such a person be known as Christian?
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Bella thanks for the response and good to see you post.
Saints are made by the Holy Spirit starting the moment the person turns his life over to God, culminating when they enter heaven at death.
Really? Do you have any examples where the Holy Spirit made someone a saint in this manner? Is there a biblical example of such a person entering heaven at death?
Sure. All the apostles and martyrs are saints and are in heaven. :D
Christians follow the Bible. Should anybody be found follow to anything else, should such a person be known as Christian?
Do you consider Ellen G White's visions part of "anything else"? :) Do you think those who follow them ought to be called Christians, lol! Daily Bread, I honestly don't care one whit what you think a Christian is since I don't think you or your church own a copyright of the Christian faith. :) Peace!
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Bella,
I think what DB is saying is that beatification is not Biblical. It is a Catholic tradition, not a biblical concept.
Whoever accepts Jesus, becomes a Saint. It is the only way to get to heaven, since Jesus carried with all the sins of the world to make us worthy. Only Jesus can save no other person can be prayed to for to intercede for them.
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Bella,
I think what DB is saying is that beatification is not Biblical. It is a Catholic tradition, not a biblical concept.
Whoever accepts Jesus, becomes a Saint. It is the only way to get to heaven, since Jesus carried with all the sins of the world to make us worthy. Only Jesus can save no other person can be prayed to for to intercede for them.
Bittertruth, respectfully, I know what Daily Bread is saying. I just don't agree! Though I don't how salvation is equated with intercession... I'm sure when you pray for your friends you don't consider yourself their personal savior. Yes, recognizing saints and invoking their help/prayers is a catholic tradition, no problem there. :D
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Bella,
I think what DB is saying is that beatification is not Biblical. It is a Catholic tradition, not a biblical concept.
Whoever accepts Jesus, becomes a Saint. It is the only way to get to heaven, since Jesus carried with all the sins of the world to make us worthy. Only Jesus can save no other person can be prayed to for to intercede for them.
I know what Daily Bread is saying and I just don't agree, simple! Though I don't how salvation is equated with intercession... I'm sure when you pray for your friends you don't consider yourself their personal savior. Yes, recognizing saints and invoking their help/prayers is a catholic tradition, no problem there. :D
What I'm asking is whether there is any biblical basis for canonization. Anything the Bible tells us to do we should do and encourage each other to do it. Since we find no biblical basis for canonization, we judge (as it to choose between right and wrong) it unbiblical.
About intercession, does God ask us to pray for others? There are numerous examples of intercession by living believers, not dead ones, in the Bible.
Luke 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
2 Corinthians 1:11 Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf
2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
1 Thessalonians 5:25 Brethren, pray for us.
2 Thessalonians 3:1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
Let me ask again, how do living believers on earth know that Nyaatha is in heaven?
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Bella,
I think what DB is saying is that beatification is not Biblical. It is a Catholic tradition, not a biblical concept.
Whoever accepts Jesus, becomes a Saint. It is the only way to get to heaven, since Jesus carried with all the sins of the world to make us worthy. Only Jesus can save no other person can be prayed to for to intercede for them.
Thanks Bittertruth. Precise and to the point. If good dead people go to heaven when they die (or when canonized in this case), Christ does not need to come again as He promised in John 14. All he needs to do is to read a list of good saints and arrange for a papal nuncio to canonize them.
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Bella,
I think what DB is saying is that beatification is not Biblical. It is a Catholic tradition, not a biblical concept.
Whoever accepts Jesus, becomes a Saint. It is the only way to get to heaven, since Jesus carried with all the sins of the world to make us worthy. Only Jesus can save no other person can be prayed to for to intercede for them.
I know what Daily Bread is saying and I just don't agree, simple! Though I don't how salvation is equated with intercession... I'm sure when you pray for your friends you don't consider yourself their personal savior. Yes, recognizing saints and invoking their help/prayers is a catholic tradition, no problem there. :D
What I'm asking is whether there is any biblical basis for canonization. Anything the Bible tells us to do we should do and encourage each other to do it. Since we find no biblical basis for canonization, we judge (as it to choose between right and wrong) it unbiblical.
About intercession, does God ask us to pray for others? There are numerous examples of intercession by living believers, not dead ones, in the Bible.
Luke 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
2 Corinthians 1:11 Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf
2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
1 Thessalonians 5:25 Brethren, pray for us.
2 Thessalonians 3:1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
Let me ask again, how do living believers on earth know that Nyaatha is in heaven?
Daily Bread, you see, I could annoy you by asking you where it says to follow Ellen G white in the Bible, but I am not doing this with you-- that's what I'm saying. Just pack this under the catholic file of horrors, convince yourself about owning the "Christian" label that pre-exists you by nearly 2 millennia, and be happy. :)
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Thanks once again. As you know from Voke's nightmares on this website already, I'm not easily scared off by questions on Ellen G. White. Whether the questions annoy or not does not matter. Maybe you should ask that question separately rather than use it to deflect the question on whether canonization is biblical or not.
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Thanks once again. As you know from Voke's nightmares on this website already, I'm not easily scared off by questions on Ellen G. White. Whether the questions annoy or not does not matter. Maybe you should ask that question separately rather than use it to deflect the question on whether canonization is biblical or not.
I am not interested in the question of Ellen G White or whatever, that's just the point I made, strange you keep missing it. I brought her up because you claimed that those who follow "anything else" ought not be called Christians, ironically ;) You want to find answers about canonization, how about you grab a book and read? It's the 21st century and I'm not your research assistant.
But If you are interested in a genuine convo, though, I will participate.
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Bella,
I think what DB is saying is that beatification is not Biblical. It is a Catholic tradition, not a biblical concept.
Whoever accepts Jesus, becomes a Saint. It is the only way to get to heaven, since Jesus carried with all the sins of the world to make us worthy. Only Jesus can save no other person can be prayed to for to intercede for them.
Bittertruth, respectfully, I know what Daily Bread is saying. I just don't agree! Though I don't how salvation is equated with intercession... I'm sure when you pray for your friends you don't consider yourself their personal savior. Yes, recognizing saints and invoking their help/prayers is a catholic tradition, no problem there. :D
Bella, All believers are equally precious in the sight of God and there is none who can boast of any special place before Him. Developing a cultus around a deceased person to whom we offer prayers and petitions borders on necromancy. Consulting the dead is strictly forbidden in Scripture (Deut 18:11).
In RC practice, the saints are revered, prayed to, and in some instances even worshipped. But nowhere does the Bible encourage seeking the attention or favour of those who have died, and praying to the dead is strictly forbidden.
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Bella,
I think what DB is saying is that beatification is not Biblical. It is a Catholic tradition, not a biblical concept.
Whoever accepts Jesus, becomes a Saint. It is the only way to get to heaven, since Jesus carried with all the sins of the world to make us worthy. Only Jesus can save no other person can be prayed to for to intercede for them.
Bittertruth, respectfully, I know what Daily Bread is saying. I just don't agree! Though I don't how salvation is equated with intercession... I'm sure when you pray for your friends you don't consider yourself their personal savior. Yes, recognizing saints and invoking their help/prayers is a catholic tradition, no problem there. :D
Bella, All believers are equally precious in the sight of God and there is none who can boast of any special place before Him. Developing a cultus around a deceased person to whom we offer prayers and petitions borders on necromancy. Consulting the dead is strictly forbidden in Scripture (Deut 18:11).
In RC practice, the saints are revered, prayed to, and in some instances even worshipped. But nowhere does the Bible encourage seeking the attention or favour of those who have died, and praying to the dead is strictly forbidden.
Saints are not worshipped in the catholic church, they are very much revered and asked for intercession. Scripture forbids summoning and consulting the dead to receive communication beyond the grave, which is what necromancy is, Catholics don't do that, in fact it is forbidden. Intercession involves a one way street where you say a prayer, not engaging in a chat with a ghost from the grave. Just to clarify. :)
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Ok, today is clearly not a good morning for me. I can tell when I start being deliberately unkind and refuse to engage. I am just not interested in another useless debate that will leave us all exactly where we started in our beliefs, just seems pointless more and more, these days. I am sorry about the snarkiness in my posts. I really should take a time out. Enjoy your nipate convos, don't let Bella ruin it for y'all.
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Saints are not worshipped in the catholic church, they are very much revered and asked for intercession.
Really? So the church opposes necromancy but reveres the dead and asks them for intercession. What's the difference? How about:
“By the end of the eighth century the idea of the exalted dignity of Mary had reached such a height that it was thought strange to dedicate a day of the week to the honor of the Lord (besides many other feasts), and to dedicate but a few days to his mother,” .... On the Sabbath after the death of Christ all faith was centered in Mary. Saturday is, as it were, the door to Sunday, which signifies eternal life. Thus Mary received a day in her honor, as well as God, and the measure rapidly found advocates and extensive circulation.
The long and short of the justification for beatification/canonization is that small saints are canonized to legitimize the worship of Mary (who is also dead). There is no biblical basis for either.
Scripture forbids summoning and consulting the dead to receive communication beyond the grave, which is what necromancy is, Catholics don't do that, in fact it is forbidden. Intercession involves a one way street where you say a prayer, not engaging in a chat with a ghost from the grave. Just to clarify. :)
There is no difference between necromancy and asking dead people to intercede for you. Dead people including Mary know nothing and have no capacity to intercede for living saints. In any case, living saints can pray for themselves since believers all have access to Christ.
John 16:25-27King James Version (KJV)
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Hebrews 4:15-16King James Version (KJV)
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
When you pray to dead people to intercede for you, demons can take advantage and may even answer your prayers to entrench your worship of them in rebellion to God.
A quote from The Great Controversy:
http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc34.html
When they have been led to believe that the dead actually return to communicate with them, Satan causes those to appear who went into the grave unprepared. They claim to be happy in heaven and even to occupy exalted positions there, and thus the error is widely taught that no difference is made between the righteous and the wicked. The pretended visitants from the world of spirits sometimes utter cautions and warnings which prove to be correct. Then, as confidence is gained, they present doctrines that directly undermine faith in the Scriptures. With an appearance of deep interest in the well-being of their friends on earth, they insinuate the most dangerous errors. The fact that they state some truths, and are able at times to foretell future events, gives to their statements an appearance of reliability; and their false teachings are accepted by the multitudes as readily, and believed as implicitly, as if they were the most sacred truths of the Bible. The law of God is set aside, the Spirit of grace despised, the blood of the covenant counted an unholy thing. The spirits deny the deity of Christ and place even the Creator on a level with themselves. Thus under a new disguise the great rebel
553
still carries on his warfare against God, begun in heaven and for nearly six thousand years continued upon the earth.
This is how pata-potea works. I'll not forget how many times women, men and children cried in the market when the Pata-Potea man finished his work. He began with some guests who appeared to invest 100 kwacha to identify a woozy card being shuffled all over the deck. They always won and walked away smiling. Seeing the winner, women, men and children also approached the table and invested. At first, they won a couple of shillings, then when the game got really interesting, they put in a huge amount hoping for huge benefits. This is how Satan and his demons work through necromancy and prayers to the dead. First, you pray for success in the exam, then for a car, then for a promotion, then for a relative's health. Soon enough you are praying to the demons and Satan himself and getting answers. You can tell the devil and his demons won't be telling you Jesus wants you to repent, keep God's law and read His word to prepare for His soon return.
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This is how pata-potea works. I'll not forget how many times women, men and children cried in the market when the Pata-Potea man finished his work. He began with some guests who appeared to invest 100 kwacha to identify a woozy card being shuffled all over the deck. They always won and walked away smiling. Seeing the winner, women, men and children also approached the table and invested. At first, they won a couple of shillings, then when the game got really interesting, they put in a huge amount hoping for huge benefits. This is how Satan and his demons work through necromancy and prayers to the dead. First, you pray for success in the exam, then for a car, then for a promotion, then for a relative's health. Soon enough you are praying to the demons and Satan himself and getting answers. You can tell the devil and his demons won't be telling you Jesus wants you to repent, keep God's law and read His word to prepare for His soon return.
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Now that you got that load of conspiracy off your chest, I hope you feel better. :)
Pray for us, Most Holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ our Lord, and especially for Daily Bread, who believes that demons have power to hijack and answer petitions directed heavenward for intercession with the Most Blessed Trinity, this I ask you and the rest of "the spirits of the just made perfect" and the heavenly cloud of witnesses that by divine providence mercifully surrounds us at all times on our earthly sourjourn, Amen.
Saints are not worshipped in the catholic church, they are very much revered and asked for intercession.
Really? So the church opposes necromancy but reveres the dead and asks them for intercession. What's the difference? How about:
“By the end of the eighth century the idea of the exalted dignity of Mary had reached such a height that it was thought strange to dedicate a day of the week to the honor of the Lord (besides many other feasts), and to dedicate but a few days to his mother,” .... On the Sabbath after the death of Christ all faith was centered in Mary. Saturday is, as it were, the door to Sunday, which signifies eternal life. Thus Mary received a day in her honor, as well as God, and the measure rapidly found advocates and extensive circulation.
The long and short of the justification for beatification/canonization is that small saints are canonized to legitimize the worship of Mary (who is also dead). There is no biblical basis for either.
Scripture forbids summoning and consulting the dead to receive communication beyond the grave, which is what necromancy is, Catholics don't do that, in fact it is forbidden. Intercession involves a one way street where you say a prayer, not engaging in a chat with a ghost from the grave. Just to clarify. :)
There is no difference between necromancy and asking dead people to intercede for you. Dead people including Mary know nothing and have no capacity to intercede for living saints. In any case, living saints can pray for themselves since believers all have access to Christ.
John 16:25-27King James Version (KJV)
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Hebrews 4:15-16King James Version (KJV)
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
When you pray to dead people to intercede for you, demons can take advantage and may even answer your prayers to entrench your worship of them in rebellion to God.
A quote from The Great Controversy:
http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc34.html
When they have been led to believe that the dead actually return to communicate with them, Satan causes those to appear who went into the grave unprepared. They claim to be happy in heaven and even to occupy exalted positions there, and thus the error is widely taught that no difference is made between the righteous and the wicked. The pretended visitants from the world of spirits sometimes utter cautions and warnings which prove to be correct. Then, as confidence is gained, they present doctrines that directly undermine faith in the Scriptures. With an appearance of deep interest in the well-being of their friends on earth, they insinuate the most dangerous errors. The fact that they state some truths, and are able at times to foretell future events, gives to their statements an appearance of reliability; and their false teachings are accepted by the multitudes as readily, and believed as implicitly, as if they were the most sacred truths of the Bible. The law of God is set aside, the Spirit of grace despised, the blood of the covenant counted an unholy thing. The spirits deny the deity of Christ and place even the Creator on a level with themselves. Thus under a new disguise the great rebel
553
still carries on his warfare against God, begun in heaven and for nearly six thousand years continued upon the earth.
This is how pata-potea works. I'll not forget how many times women, men and children cried in the market when the Pata-Potea man finished his work. He began with some guests who appeared to invest 100 kwacha to identify a woozy card being shuffled all over the deck. They always won and walked away smiling. Seeing the winner, women, men and children also approached the table and invested. At first, they won a couple of shillings, then when the game got really interesting, they put in a huge amount hoping for huge benefits. This is how Satan and his demons work through necromancy and prayers to the dead. First, you pray for success in the exam, then for a car, then for a promotion, then for a relative's health. Soon enough you are praying to the demons and Satan himself and getting answers. You can tell the devil and his demons won't be telling you Jesus wants you to repent, keep God's law and read His word to prepare for His soon return.
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SAINT
Supreme Pontiff: Canonization
By the Rite of Canonization the Supreme Pontiff, by an act which is protected from error by the Holy Spirit, elevates a person to the universal veneration of the Church. By canonization the Pope does not make the person a saint. Rather, he declares that the person is with God and is an example of following Christ worthy of imitation by the faithful. A Mass, Divine Office and other acts of veneration, may now be offered throughout the universal Church.
If the saint has some universal appeal he may be added to the general calendar of the Church as a Memorial or Optional Memorial. If the appeal is localized to a region of the world, a particular nation, or a particular religious institute, the saint may be added to the particular calendars of those nations or institutes, or celebrated by the clergy and faithful with a devotion to the saint with a votive Mass or Office.
From the little I gathered about this canonization, it seems to me like just another catholic tradition. Many denominations follow some sort of traditions, so I am not even sure what the argument is all about. At the end of the day, whether the person is a saint or not, is between her and her God. Not sure about the intercession part, or even why the pope has to declare anything
And as to Daily bread, can you quote the scriptures to back up the stament you made up there instead of the White series?
When you pray to dead people to intercede for you, demons can take advantage and may even answer your prayers to entrench your worship of them in rebellion to God.
A quote from The Great Controversy:
http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc34.html
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The whole idea of "intercession" is a peculiar one. Why not just direct prayers?
Is the idea that some people are so bad that God will pay attention only if a better person (a.k.a saint) hands over the prayer? Or is it that God is so busy that prayers need to be "streamlined" by reliable gate-keepers, in the manner of old-fashioned "batch data processing"? Or does the better person act like a probation officer at the sentencing of a petty criminal: "yes, his is not a brilliant record; but, on the other hand, he's done this and that good thing; all things considered, room for redemption ..."? Or maybe saints, unlike many today, speak Latin, the "preferred" language?
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The whole idea of "intercession" is a peculiar one. Why not just direct prayers?
Is the idea that some people are so bad that God will pay attention only if a better person (a.k.a saint) hands over the prayer? Or is it that God is so busy that prayers need to be "streamlined" by reliable gate-keepers, in the manner of old-fashioned "batch data processing"? Or does the better person act like a probation officer at the sentencing of a petty criminal: "yes, his is not a brilliant record; but, on the other hand, he's done this and that good thing; all things considered, room for redemption ..."? Or maybe saints, unlike many today, speak Latin, the "preferred" language?
Hehehe...
If I may answer from previous personal experience. An intercession is exactly that type of thing you mention. Someone putting in a nice word on your behalf.
I think technology has borrowed quite a bit from this relationship. Intercession promotes looser coupling between God and adherent. If God is busy processing a resource intensive prayer, the saint can hang onto your prayer until God comes online. In this scenario the adherent can fire and forget a prayer secure in the knowledge of guaranteed delivery and acknowledment. Prayers sent this way do not get lost in the event of downtime or a blackout.
When vooke prays, he requires an open and direct connection to God. This approach scales poorly. Since resources are scarce, some of his prayers go unacknowledged, let alone unanswered.
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The whole idea of "intercession" is a peculiar one. Why not just direct prayers?
Is the idea that some people are so bad that God will pay attention only if a better person (a.k.a saint) hands over the prayer? Or is it that God is so busy that prayers need to be "streamlined" by reliable gate-keepers, in the manner of old-fashioned "batch data processing"? Or does the better person act like a probation officer at the sentencing of a petty criminal: "yes, his is not a brilliant record; but, on the other hand, he's done this and that good thing; all things considered, room for redemption ..."? Or maybe saints, unlike many today, speak Latin, the "preferred" language?
Well, let me explain: We believe in something called the communion of saints. If the small toe is hurting, the whole body can partake in the suffering. In other words, the oneness of the body of believers (church) with each other and with Christ is believed to be absolutely real by Catholics and Orthodox and Assyrians. We don't believe that once a Christian dies, he is kicked out of Christ's body by death. If anything, their position in the body is far more secured than we on earth who can still decide tomorrow to opt out of that body. That is all there is to the belief in saints, really. Nothing too grand about it.The saints pray for us the same way we pray for each other here on earth, our problems are each others. It really is that simple. We don't pray for them (those in heaven) because they are already in heaven and are not exactly lacking in anything. But we do pray for those dead who we believe are still going through some suffering in purgatory, and we believe they suffering also pray for us.
So the big difference between us (including orthodox and all apostolic/historic churches) and protestants is not really about the value or the point or the purpose of intercession; Christians know they always have to pray for each other and help each other carry the crosses of life. No, the real difference, is that we believe that Christians who die as Christians are not just very much alive but an integral part of the body of Christ and thus are still VERY MUCH connected to all Christians who are also part of that same body, we believe that death has no power whatsoever over this union, while protestants do not believe that once Christians have died they are still connected to Christians who are living on earth. That really is the big difference.
The issue about God not having time/being busy makes very little sense to me, in fact I'm convinced the notion could only come from a non-believer. We do not and have never believed for even one moment that God is anything but absolutely and fully present to everything that exists at all times. In fact, we believe that if God were ever too busy even for the tiniest moment to be fully aware of any single thing, that thing would simply vanish from existence since it is only by God knowing it and deliberately willing it, that anything exists at all or continues to exist at any moment. So, absolutely not, it has nothing to do with God allegedly having little time, what a strange notion. God is omnipresent, omnipotent, nothing escapes his attention, not even the flap of the wings of a fly. It is impossible that anyone can say anything and God not be anything but FULLY aware of it, much less that anyone can say anything to God himself and he be unaware of it. Like I said, ideas like this come from unbelievers in my view, for I cannot imagine a Christian or even a Jew or a Muslim who entertains the notion that God is pressed for time or power to do anything at all.
The issue about people being too bad to pray is another one that makes little sense. Asking for intercession does not prevent one from talking to God himself. In fact, no one would ask for intercession if they were not talking to God themselves. I have NEVER asked for intercession--whether from my friends at the parish on Sunday or the priest or even from the saints in heaven--for something of which I wasn't asking God myself directly. I don't know anybody who does that, actually. Every time someone says, pray for me over this or that issue, it is because they are already themselves praying over the same issue. I think some of these suggestions come from people who just don't practice prayer themselves and are speaking about an alien, coz if you pray, you know the way some things happen as a matter of course.
Protestants are afraid that speaking to saints in heaven somehow interferes with the place of Christ in their lives, and this is a concern we fully appreciate and understand, its actually the main bone of contention they have with this practice. But we look at it as exactly the same way as when speaking to God for each other here on earth. It never interferes with our beliefs in God or the place he occupies, and just because these people happen to have passed, their souls separated from their bodies, doesn't change who they are in the church, in our view. :D We believe we are joined to Christ and participate in his mission, co-priests and intercessors, with others, not because we ourselves do anything of our own power but because we are literally joined to Christ and participate in his divine sonship by the gift of grace. In fact, this participation, power to be sons of God in Christ, is what we Catholics call grace or sanctifying grace. The saints suffered with and in Christ on earth, and they are now reigning in Christ at the right hand of the father, as we all shall, God willing, at the end of time. :)
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The whole idea of "intercession" is a peculiar one. Why not just direct prayers?
Is the idea that some people are so bad that God will pay attention only if a better person (a.k.a saint) hands over the prayer? Or is it that God is so busy that prayers need to be "streamlined" by reliable gate-keepers, in the manner of old-fashioned "batch data processing"? Or does the better person act like a probation officer at the sentencing of a petty criminal: "yes, his is not a brilliant record; but, on the other hand, he's done this and that good thing; all things considered, room for redemption ..."? Or maybe saints, unlike many today, speak Latin, the "preferred" language?
Well, let me explain: We believe in something called the communion of saints. If the small toe is hurting, the whole body can partake in the suffering. In other words, the oneness of the body of believers (church) with each other and with Christ is believed to be absolutely real by Catholics and Orthodox and Assyrians. We don't believe that once a Christian dies, he is kicked out of Christ's body by death. If anything, their position in the body is far more secured than we on earth who can still decide tomorrow to opt out of that body. That is all there is to the belief in saints, really. Nothing too grand about it.The saints pray for us the same way we pray for each other here on earth, our problems are each others. It really is that simple. We don't pray for them (those in heaven) because they are already in heaven and are not exactly lacking in anything. But we do pray for those dead who we believe are still going through some suffering in purgatory, and we believe they suffering also pray for us.
So the big difference between us (including orthodox and all apostolic/historic churches) and protestants is not really about the value or the point or the purpose of intercession; Christians know they always have to pray for each other and help each other carry the crosses of life. No, the real difference, is that we believe that Christians who die as Christians are not just very much alive but an integral part of the body of Christ and thus are still VERY MUCH connected to all Christians who are also part of that same body, we believe that death has no power whatsoever over this union, while protestants do not believe that once Christians have died they are still connected to Christians who are living on earth. That really is the big difference.
The issue about God not having time/being busy makes very little sense to me, in fact I'm convinced the notion could only come from a non-believer. We do not and have never believed for even one moment that God is anything but absolutely and fully present to everything that exists at all times. In fact, we believe that if God were ever too busy even for the tiniest moment to be fully aware of any single thing, that thing would simply vanish from existence since it is only by God knowing it and deliberately willing it, that anything exists at all or continues to exist at any moment. So, absolutely not, it has nothing to do with God allegedly having little time, what a strange notion. God is omnipresent, omnipotent, nothing escapes his attention, not even the flap of the wings of a fly. It is impossible that anyone can say anything and God not be anything but FULLY aware of it, much less that anyone can say anything to God himself and he be unaware of it. Like I said, ideas like this come from unbelievers in my view, for I cannot imagine a Christian or even a Jew or a Muslim who entertains the notion that God is pressed for time or power to do anything at all.
The issue about people being too bad to pray is another one that makes little sense. Asking for intercession does not prevent one from talking to God himself. In fact, no one would ask for intercession if they were not talking to God themselves. I have NEVER asked for intercession--whether from my friends at the parish on Sunday or the priest or even from the saints in heaven--for something of which I wasn't asking God myself directly. I don't know anybody who does that, actually. Every time someone says, pray for me over this or that issue, it is because they are already themselves praying over the same issue. I think some of these suggestions come from people who just don't practice prayer themselves and are speaking about an alien, coz if you pray, you know the way some things happen as a matter of course.
Protestants are afraid that speaking to saints in heaven somehow interferes with the place of Christ in their lives, and this is a concern we fully appreciate and understand, its actually the main bone of contention they have with this practice. But we look at it as exactly the same way as when speaking to God for each other here on earth. It never interferes with our beliefs in God or the place he occupies, and just because these people happen to have passed, their souls separated from their bodies, doesn't change who they are in the church, in our view. :D We believe we are joined to Christ and participate in his mission, co-priests and intercessors, with others, not because we ourselves do anything of our own power but because we are literally joined to Christ and participate in his divine sonship by the gift of grace. In fact, this participation, power to be sons of God in Christ, is what we Catholics call grace or sanctifying grace. The saints suffered with and in Christ on earth, and they are now reigning in Christ at the right hand of the father, as we all shall, God willing, at the end of time. :)
While you may eloquently speak for Catholicism, you greatly err when you attempt to do the same for Protestanism.
Talking to the dead is necromancy expressly forbidden in the OT. Whether they talk back is splitting hairs. Necromancy is not EXPECTING the dead to reply nor the dead replying, it is ALL attempts to contact the dead. There really is no difference between camping at a grave talking to your relation for closure and addressing those you believe are in heaven
Praying to the dead is an invention, late aberration of the Christian Faith and that's why reformers were so quick to dump it. So it is the fear of God that makes me steer clear of necromancy and not fear of spirits
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While you may eloquently speak for Catholicism, you greatly err when you attempt to do the same for Protestanism.
Talking to the dead is necromancy expressly forbidden in the OT. Whether they talk back is splitting hairs. Necromancy is not EXPECTING the dead to reply nor the dead replying, it is ALL attempts to contact the dead. There really is no difference between camping at a grave talking to your relation for closure and addressing those you believe are in heaven
Praying to the dead is an invention, late aberration of the Christian Faith and that's why reformers were so quick to dump it. So it is the fear of God that makes me steer clear of necromancy and not fear of spirits
vooke, with respect, you are one among 700 million protestants who are as divided on just about any issue you can imagine. You have no more right to claim you speak for "Protestantism" than the next person I meet on the street. As for me, this is an issue I have debated/spoken about/ read debates on between protestants-Catholicism a gazillion times. They ALWAYS go back to "Christ is the sole-mediator" etc etc, believing catholics have added to Christ, (has happened twice already in this very thread, actually!) so I'm sorry but you don't get to tell me nothing about what protestants believe on this issue. I know about it just as well, if not better, than you--seeing as you haven't spent a quarter of the time I have been involved in these exchanges as have many many catholics spend about every other day of the week with protestants!
The issue about necromancy being equivalent with asking intercession is frankly, your own, nowhere in the Bible. That person speaking to relatives is not engaged in necromancy. The person summoning a spirit is engaged in necromancy. Necromancy is not vague or ambiguous, its meaning is well-established. So as soon as you find intercession denounced in the Bible, speak to me about it, I'm all ears. In the mean time, what you are doing is asking me to take your word for it and I'm sorry but I simply don't take your private word as being equivalent to a command of God, that's no insult, but plain-speak.
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While you may eloquently speak for Catholicism, you greatly err when you attempt to do the same for Protestanism.
Talking to the dead is necromancy expressly forbidden in the OT. Whether they talk back is splitting hairs. Necromancy is not EXPECTING the dead to reply nor the dead replying, it is ALL attempts to contact the dead. There really is no difference between camping at a grave talking to your relation for closure and addressing those you believe are in heaven
Praying to the dead is an invention, late aberration of the Christian Faith and that's why reformers were so quick to dump it. So it is the fear of God that makes me steer clear of necromancy and not fear of spirits
vooke, with respect, you are one among 700 million protestants who are as divided on just about any issue you can imagine. You have no more right to claim you speak for "Protestantism" than the next person I meet on the street. As for me, this is an issue I have debated/spoken about/ read debates on between protestants-Catholicism a gazillion times. They ALWAYS go back to "Christ is the sole-mediator" etc etc, believing catholics have added to Christ, (has happened twice already in this very thread, actually!) so I'm sorry but you don't get to tell me nothing about what protestants believe on this issue. I know about it just as well, if not better, than you--seeing as you haven't spent a quarter of the time I have been involved in these exchanges as have many many catholics spend about every other day of the week with protestants!
The issue about necromancy being equivalent with asking intercession is frankly, your own, nowhere in the Bible. That person speaking to relatives is not engaged in necromancy. The person summoning a spirit is engaged in necromancy. Necromancy is not vague or ambiguous, its meaning is well-established. So as soon as you find intercession denounced in the Bible, speak to me about it, I'm all ears. In the mean time, what you are doing is asking me to take your word for it and I'm sorry but I simply don't take your private word as being equivalent to a command of God, that's no insult, but plain-speak.
You are forbidden from contacting the dead for whatever reasons. If you have been given the wrong reasons for not contacting the dead in the gazillion debates, that don't nullify this fact; leave the dead alone. That's scripture. It has no scriptural precedence anyway; the innumerable instances of intercession we have from Genesis to Revelation is BY the living and FOR the living
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You are forbidden from contacting the dead for whatever reasons. If you have been given the wrong reasons for not contacting the dead in the gazillion debates, that don't nullify this fact; leave the dead alone. That's scripture. It has no scriptural precedence anyway; the innumerable instances of intercession we have from Genesis to Revelation is BY the living and FOR the living
Quote the Bible please, Bella is all eyes. :)
The saints in heaven are more ALIVE than you, unless you believe in soul sleep.
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Bella thanks for your continued interest in this thread. Moonki's suggestion that intercession is about Christians putting to God a good word on behalf of others is worthy of comment. First, God does not play favorites (all believers are equal in His sight as far as prayer is concerned -Acts 12:5 Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him; Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers).
It is possible that Moonki's observation arises from the practice of briefcase preachers and fake pastors who claim they can pray for somebody and get results, as if they own prayer stores in heaven and that the person in need cannot pray for themselves. Intercession is a recognition by other believers that a fellow believer needs God's intervention and by praying for them, we acknowledge dependence on God. When God answers intercessory prayer, no believer will then take credit (we prayed for you, so yo got an answer) but glory returns to God. The result is that faith in God by all believers, including those whose intercessory prayers were answered, is deepened.
Bella's response creates serious theological problems. First, it suggests that the dead are not really dead (so why are they dead then, like the Bible says in Genesis 3?)
Gen 3:
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.)?
The Bible is clear that communication with the dead is forbidden, a detestable abomination (Deut 18:10-12). God cannot forbid communication with the dead and say sin causes death on one hand and send them to believers at the same time. Catholic practices like canonization are attempts to entrench the unbiblical doctrines of Marian worship, purgatory, indulgences and so on. Mary, just like other believers, is dead and cannot communicate anything to anybody.
Ellen G. White gives very insightful views on the state of the dead and why it is a particularly dangerous thing to engage in communication with the dead. For the sake of the anti-EGW crusaders, she amply quotes Bible verses in the passage. She says just what the Bible says.
See: http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc34.html
Furthermore, God has expressly forbidden all pretended communication with departed spirits. In the days of the Hebrews there was a class of people who claimed, as do the spiritualists of today, to hold communication with the dead. But the "familiar spirits," as these visitants from other worlds were called, are declared by the Bible to be "the spirits of devils." (Compare Numbers 25:1-3; Psalm 106:28; I Corinthians 10:20; Revelation 16:14.) The work of dealing with familiar spirits was pronounced an abomination to the Lord, and was solemnly forbidden under penalty of death. Leviticus 19:31; 20:27. The very name of witchcraft is now held in contempt. The claim that men can hold intercourse with evil spirits is regarded as a fable of the Dark Ages. But spiritualism, which numbers its converts by hundreds of thousands, yea, by millions, which has made its way into scientific circles, which has invaded churches, and has found favor in legislative bodies, and even in the courts of kings-- this mammoth deception is but a revival, in a new disguise, of the witchcraft condemned and prohibited of old.
Marvelous beyond expression is the blindness of the people of this generation. Thousands reject the word of God as unworthy of belief and with eager confidence receive the deceptions of Satan. Skeptics and scoffers denounce the bigotry of those who contend for the faith of prophets and apostles, and they divert themselves by holding up to ridicule the solemn declarations of the Scriptures concerning Christ and the plan of salvation, and the retribution to be visited upon the rejecters of the truth. They affect great pity for minds so narrow, weak, and superstitious as to acknowledge the claims of God and obey the requirements of His law. They manifest as much assurance as if, indeed, they had made a covenant with death and an agreement with hell-- as if they had erected an impassable, impenetrable barrier between themselves and the vengeance of God. Nothing can arouse their fears. So fully have they yielded to the tempter, so closely are they united with him, and so thoroughly imbued with his spirit, that they have no power and no inclination to break away from his snare.
Satan has long been preparing for his final effort to deceive the world. The foundation of his work was laid by the assurance given to Eve in Eden: "Ye shall not surely die." "In the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:4, 5. Little by little he has prepared the way for his masterpiece of deception in the development of spiritualism. He has not yet reached the full accomplishment of his designs; but it will be reached in the last remnant of time. Says the prophet: "I saw three unclean spirits like frogs; . . . they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth
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unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty." Revelation 16:13, 14. Except those who are kept by the power of God, through faith in His word, the whole world will be swept into the ranks of this delusion. The people are fast being lulled to a fatal security, to be awakened only by the outpouring of the wrath of God.
If people die and automatically go to heaven as canonization attempts to do, everybody including Hitler are there (Nazis most probably canonized him and hail the Fuhrer as their patron saint). Worse, what is the plan of salvation about if people automatically go to heaven when they die? Why should God have let His precious Son to die then?
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Bella thanks for your continued interest in this thread. Moonki's suggestion that intercession is about Christians putting to God a good word on behalf of others is worthy of comment. First, God does not play favorites (all believers are equal in His sight as far as prayer is concerned -Acts 12:5 Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him; Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers).
It is possible that Moonki's observation arises from the practice of briefcase preachers and fake pastors who claim they can pray for somebody and get results, as if they own prayer stores in heaven and that the person in need cannot pray for themselves. Intercession is a recognition by other believers that a fellow believer needs God's intervention and by praying for them, we acknowledge dependence on God. When God answers intercessory prayer, no believer will then take credit (we prayed for you, so yo got an answer) but glory returns to God. The result is that faith in God by all believers, including those whose intercessory prayers were answered, is deepened.
Bella's response creates serious theological problems. First, it suggests that the dead are not really dead (so why are they dead then, like the Bible says in Genesis 3:4-5 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.)?
The Bible is clear that communication with the dead is forbidden, a detestable abomination (Deut 18:10-12). God cannot forbid communication with the dead on one hand and send them to believers at the same time. Catholic practices like canonization are attempts to entrench the unbiblical doctrines of Marian worship, purgatory, indulgences and so on. Mary, just like other believers, is dead and cannot communicate anything to anybody.
Ellen G. White gives very insightful views on the state of the dead and why it is a particularly dangerous thing to engage in communication with the dead. For the sake of the anti-EGW crusaders, she amply quotes Bible verses in the passage. She says just what the Bible says.
See: http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc34.html
Marvelous beyond expression is the blindness of the people of this generation. Thousands reject the word of God as unworthy of belief and with eager confidence receive the deceptions of Satan. Skeptics and scoffers denounce the bigotry of those who contend for the faith of prophets and apostles, and they divert themselves by holding up to ridicule the solemn declarations of the Scriptures concerning Christ and the plan of salvation, and the retribution to be visited upon the rejecters of the truth. They affect great pity for minds so narrow, weak, and superstitious as to acknowledge the claims of God and obey the requirements of His law. They manifest as much assurance as if, indeed, they had made a covenant with death and an agreement with hell-- as if they had erected an impassable, impenetrable barrier between themselves and the vengeance of God. Nothing can arouse their fears. So fully have they yielded to the tempter, so closely are they united with him, and so thoroughly imbued with his spirit, that they have no power and no inclination to break away from his snare.
Satan has long been preparing for his final effort to deceive the world. The foundation of his work was laid by the assurance given to Eve in Eden: "Ye shall not surely die." "In the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:4, 5. Little by little he has prepared the way for his masterpiece of deception in the development of spiritualism. He has not yet reached the full accomplishment of his designs; but it will be reached in the last remnant of time. Says the prophet: "I saw three unclean spirits like frogs; . . . they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth
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unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty." Revelation 16:13, 14. Except those who are kept by the power of God, through faith in His word, the whole world will be swept into the ranks of this delusion. The people are fast being lulled to a fatal security, to be awakened only by the outpouring of the wrath of God.
If people die and automatically go to heaven as canonization attempts to do, everybody including Hitler are there (Nazis most probably canonized him and hail the Fuhrer as their patron saint). Worse, what is the plan of salvation about if people automatically go to heaven when they die? Why should God have let His precious Son to die then?
Daily Bread, your objections are based on the belief that Christians do not go to heaven upon death but cease to exist until the resurrection. Thus, there is no one to hear our requests for intercessions or even to intercede except those on earth. I don't believe Christians are dead. They, like angels, see all that goes on, on earth, and are able to pray to God about it. I agree with you that intercession per se, does not mean God is limited in any way.
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You are forbidden from contacting the dead for whatever reasons. If you have been given the wrong reasons for not contacting the dead in the gazillion debates, that don't nullify this fact; leave the dead alone. That's scripture. It has no scriptural precedence anyway; the innumerable instances of intercession we have from Genesis to Revelation is BY the living and FOR the living
Quote the Bible please, Bella is all eyes. :)
The saints in heaven are more ALIVE than you, unless you believe in soul sleep.
They may be alive no doubt but prayer is BY the living and FOR the Living. Has been like this from Genesis to Revelation. And there has been saints from Genesis to Revelation. You should start by sharing examples for anything else.
Deuteronomy 18:10-12 (KJV)
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
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You are forbidden from contacting the dead for whatever reasons. If you have been given the wrong reasons for not contacting the dead in the gazillion debates, that don't nullify this fact; leave the dead alone. That's scripture. It has no scriptural precedence anyway; the innumerable instances of intercession we have from Genesis to Revelation is BY the living and FOR the living
Quote the Bible please, Bella is all eyes. :)
The saints in heaven are more ALIVE than you, unless you believe in soul sleep.
They may be alive no doubt but prayer is BY the living and FOR the Living. Has been like this from Genesis to Revelation. And there has been saints from Genesis to Revelation. You should start by sharing examples for anything else.
Why should I quote anything? You are the one claiming a COMMAND, not me. Please show me the command I am violating, per your claim.
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You are forbidden from contacting the dead for whatever reasons. If you have been given the wrong reasons for not contacting the dead in the gazillion debates, that don't nullify this fact; leave the dead alone. That's scripture. It has no scriptural precedence anyway; the innumerable instances of intercession we have from Genesis to Revelation is BY the living and FOR the living
Quote the Bible please, Bella is all eyes. :)
The saints in heaven are more ALIVE than you, unless you believe in soul sleep.
They may be alive no doubt but prayer is BY the living and FOR the Living. Has been like this from Genesis to Revelation. And there has been saints from Genesis to Revelation. You should start by sharing examples for anything else.
Why should I quote anything? You are the one claiming a COMMAND, not me. Please show me the command I am violating, per your claim.
Sorry I added the verse after you responded.
Look at that verse closely. Why shouldn't you contact those with familiar spirits. Is it because they stink or is it not because of what they do, which is communicating with the dead?
Again there is no record nor instruction of praying to the dead saints and we have a good record of prayers from Genesis to Revelation. That's over 4,000 years of God's relationship with man and no hint of praying to dead spirits to pray for you.
Praying to dead men and women is an invention, it is spiritism
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Mya wanted Bible verses connecting necromancy with devils. Satan has counterfeited all of God's blessings to man, including a fake Sabbath (Sunday worship); a fake marriage (homosexuality and lesbianism), fake answers to prayer (necromancy, prayers to dead saints). He also has a fake return to paradise (secret rapture). Even false Christs shall arise in the last days (Matt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.).
Apart from Satan's answer to Pharaoh's magicians, see below.
Exodus 7
10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the Lord had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
Numbers 25 King James Version (KJV)
1 And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab.
2 And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.
3 And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel.
4 And the Lord said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun, that the fierce anger of the Lord may be turned away from Israel.
5 And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor.
Ps 106
28 They joined themselves also unto Baalpeor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead.
29 Thus they provoked him to anger with their inventions: and the plague brake in upon them.
I Cor 10
19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
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Sorry I added the verse after you responded.
Look at that verse closely.
I have: Here goes: Deuteronomy 18:10-12 (KJV)
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
Nothing there about intercession, plenty about consulting spirits.
Why shouldn't you contact those with familiar spirits. Is it because they stink or is it not because of what they do, which is communicating with the dead?
False. They don't just "communicate with the dead". They CONSULT the dead, for information about the future and other inaccessible (to humans) information to use in controlloing the course of life on earth. Which psychic have you EVER heard asking for intercession? Especially intercession with God? Never. They contact spirits to gain access to power and knowledge they otherwise cannot get. It is precisely for this reason that people pay them/go to them, not to ask for prayers to God. This is why God forbids all this, and this is what divination is, not simply "so-and-so, please pray for me to God".
Again there is no record of praying to the dead saints and we have a good record of prayers from Genesis to Revelation. That's over 4,000 years of God's relationship with man and no hint of praying to dead spirits to pray for you.
Those who lived before Christ never went to heaven, anyway, but that is a by-the-way. I'm not sure your claims about there being no evidence of intercession among Jews and Christians in 4,000 years is true, since you start by limiting what counts as "evidence". Jews had an oral Torah along with the pentateuch, they have never been sola-scripturaists, you see. See what this wiki says, for example,:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercession_of_saints#Judaism
Judaism
There is some evidence of a Jewish belief in intercession, both in the form of the paternal blessings passed down from Abraham to his children, and 2 Maccabees, where Judas Maccabaeus sees the dead Onias and Jeremiah giving blessing to the Jewish army. In ancient Judaism, it was also popular to pray for intercession from Michael in spite of the rabbinical prohibition against appealing to angels as intermediaries between God and his people. There were two prayers written beseeching him as the prince of mercy to intercede in favor of Israel: one composed by Eliezer ha-Kalir, and the other by Judah ben Samuel he-Hasid.[15] Those who oppose this practice feel that to God alone may prayers be offered.
In modern times one of the greatest divisions in Jewish theology (hashkafa) is over the issue of whether one can beseech the help of a tzadik – an extremely righteous individual. The main conflict is over a practice of beseeching a tzadik who has already died to make intercession before the Almighty. This practice is common mainly among Chasidic Jews,[16] but also found in varying degrees among other usually Chareidi communities. It strongest opposition is found largely among sectors of Modern Orthodox Judaism, Dor Daim and Talmide haRambam, and among aspects of the Litvish Chareidi community. Those who oppose this practice usually do so over the problem of idolatry, as Jewish Law strictly prohibits making use of a mediator (melitz) or agent (sarsur) between oneself and the Almighty.
The perspectives of those Jewish groups opposed to the use of intercessors is usually softer in regard to beseeching the Almighty alone merely in the "merit" (tzechut) of a tzadik.
Those Jews who support the use of intercessors claim that their beseeching of the tzadik is not prayer or worship. The conflict between the groups is essentially over what constitutes prayer, worship, a mediator (melitz), and an agent (sarsur).
Interesting they dont think intercession violates the command about necromancy/divination in deuteromony, they are only concerned about placing mediators between God and men, (and they think this pertains to intercessors on earth too, not just those in heaven!) which is what almost all protestants I have ever spoken to on this are also concerned about, unlike the claim you made.
Praying to dead men and women is an invention, it is spiritism
This is just false. Arbitrarily asserted, arbitrarily denied. 8)
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You are forbidden from contacting the dead for whatever reasons. If you have been given the wrong reasons for not contacting the dead in the gazillion debates, that don't nullify this fact; leave the dead alone. That's scripture. It has no scriptural precedence anyway; the innumerable instances of intercession we have from Genesis to Revelation is BY the living and FOR the living
Quote the Bible please, Bella is all eyes. :)
The saints in heaven are more ALIVE than you, unless you believe in soul sleep.
They may be alive no doubt but prayer is BY the living and FOR the Living. Has been like this from Genesis to Revelation. And there has been saints from Genesis to Revelation. You should start by sharing examples for anything else.
Why should I quote anything? You are the one claiming a COMMAND, not me. Please show me the command I am violating, per your claim.
Bella here lies the problem. That the Bible does not forbid anything does not make it legit (biblical).
http://text.egwwritings.org/publication.php?pubtype=Book&bookCode=GC&lang=en&pagenumber=289
The very beginning of the great apostasy was in seeking to supplement the authority of God by that of the church. Rome began by enjoining what God had not forbidden, and she ended by forbidding what He had explicitly enjoined.
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Sorry I added the verse after you responded.
Look at that verse closely.
I have: Here goes: Deuteronomy 18:10-12 (KJV)
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
Nothing there about intercession, plenty about consulting spirits.
Why shouldn't you contact those with familiar spirits. Is it because they stink or is it not because of what they do, which is communicating with the dead?
False. They don't just "communicate with the dead". They CONSULT the dead, for information about the future and other inaccessible (to humans) information to use in controlloing the course of life on earth. Which psychic have you EVER heard asking for intercession? Especially intercession with God? Never. They contact spirits to gain access to power and knowledge they otherwise cannot get. It is precisely for this reason that people pay them/go to them, not to ask for prayers to God. This is why God forbids all this, and this is what divination is, not simply "so-and-so, please pray for me to God".
Again there is no record of praying to the dead saints and we have a good record of prayers from Genesis to Revelation. That's over 4,000 years of God's relationship with man and no hint of praying to dead spirits to pray for you.
Those who lived before Christ never went to heaven, anyway, but that is a by-the-way. I'm not sure your claims about there being no evidence of intercession among Jews and Christians in 4,000 years is true, since you start by limiting what counts as "evidence". Jews had an oral Torah along with the pentateuch, they have never been sola-scripturaists, you see. See what this wiki says, for example,:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercession_of_saints#Judaism
Judaism
There is some evidence of a Jewish belief in intercession, both in the form of the paternal blessings passed down from Abraham to his children, and 2 Maccabees, where Judas Maccabaeus sees the dead Onias and Jeremiah giving blessing to the Jewish army. In ancient Judaism, it was also popular to pray for intercession from Michael in spite of the rabbinical prohibition against appealing to angels as intermediaries between God and his people. There were two prayers written beseeching him as the prince of mercy to intercede in favor of Israel: one composed by Eliezer ha-Kalir, and the other by Judah ben Samuel he-Hasid.[15] Those who oppose this practice feel that to God alone may prayers be offered.
In modern times one of the greatest divisions in Jewish theology (hashkafa) is over the issue of whether one can beseech the help of a tzadik – an extremely righteous individual. The main conflict is over a practice of beseeching a tzadik who has already died to make intercession before the Almighty. This practice is common mainly among Chasidic Jews,[16] but also found in varying degrees among other usually Chareidi communities. It strongest opposition is found largely among sectors of Modern Orthodox Judaism, Dor Daim and Talmide haRambam, and among aspects of the Litvish Chareidi community. Those who oppose this practice usually do so over the problem of idolatry, as Jewish Law strictly prohibits making use of a mediator (melitz) or agent (sarsur) between oneself and the Almighty.
The perspectives of those Jewish groups opposed to the use of intercessors is usually softer in regard to beseeching the Almighty alone merely in the "merit" (tzechut) of a tzadik.
Those Jews who support the use of intercessors claim that their beseeching of the tzadik is not prayer or worship. The conflict between the groups is essentially over what constitutes prayer, worship, a mediator (melitz), and an agent (sarsur).
Interesting they dont think intercession violates the command about necromancy/divination in deuteromony, they are concerned about placing mediators between God and men, which is what almost all protestants I have ever spoken to on this are also concerned about, unlike the claim you made.
Praying to dead men and women is an invention, it is spiritism
This is just false. Arbitrarily asserted, arbitrarily denied. 8)
It's no surprise all the quotations you can come up with are from the intertesamental period, after Malachi and before Matthew. Apocrypha, summarily dismissed by Jesus himself.
Those 'oral' traditions EVOLVED from Babylon that's why there is zero trace of them before captivity
And Jesus had some nasty words for 'traditions' of Jews
Matthew 15:2-3 (KJV)
Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
'Traditions' are not necessarily right just because they are old. While God did everything to prevent Israel from contacting the dead, their neighbors did just that. Praying to dead people predate Christianity by thousands of years. I find it decidedly curious that even NT is totally silent on that, only for it to be suddenly 'discovered' hundreds of years after Pentecost
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Bella here lies the problem. That the Bible does not forbid anything does not make it legit (biblical).
http://text.egwwritings.org/publication.php?pubtype=Book&bookCode=GC&lang=en&pagenumber=289
The very beginning of the great apostasy was in seeking to supplement the authority of God by that of the church. Rome began by enjoining what God had not forbidden, and she ended by forbidding what He had explicitly enjoined.
It is you doing the supplementing (and self-contradiction on top) if you insist something is commanded by God and then can't cite it in the Bible, all the while claiming the Bible is your sole authority. If it is, then you have no basis in forbidding anything not forbidden there, otherwise you are using yourself as the secondary authority others should listen to. We catholics obey both the Bible and the church tradition, we have never pretended to be sola-scripturaists, another doctrine nowhere found in the Bible itself and thus self-refuting. 8)
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It's no surprise all the quotations you can come up with are from the intertesamental period, after Malachi and before Matthew.
So you admit your "4,000" year claim was bunk. Apocrypha, summarily dismissed by Jesus himself.
Chapter and verse, please. I would like to see Jesus "summarily" dismissing the books of the Septuagint read all over Palestinian synanogues in Jesus' day. I must have missed that verse in over 10 years of reading the Gospels.
Those 'oral' traditions EVOLVED from Babylon that's why there is zero trace of them before captivity
Another arbitrary claim, arbitrarily denied.
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Bella, I've cited four Bible passages (and there are more). I'll repeat myself for emphasis.
Exodus 7
10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the Lord had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
Numbers 25 King James Version (KJV)
1 And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab.
2 And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.
3 And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel.
4 And the Lord said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun, that the fierce anger of the Lord may be turned away from Israel.
5 And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor.
Deuteronomy 18:10-12King James Version (KJV)
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
Lev 19
26 Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times.
27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.
28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the Lord.
29 Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.
30 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord.
31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.
Lev 20
4 And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not:
5 Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people.
6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.
.....
26 And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the Lord am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.
27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
Ps 106
28 They joined themselves also unto Baalpeor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead.
29 Thus they provoked him to anger with their inventions: and the plague brake in upon them.
I Cor 10
19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
Now quote one Bible verse showing dead saints are in heaven and living believers should ask them to pray for them.
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Daily Bread: Maybe when you find the verse forbidding intercession, I will respond to the verses. I just dont see the point of responding to irrelevant verses to this discussion, though. :)
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It's no surprise all the quotations you can come up with are from the intertesamental period, after Malachi and before Matthew.
So you admit your "4,000" year claim was bunk. Apocrypha, summarily dismissed by Jesus himself.
Chapter and verse, please. I would like to see Jesus "summarily" dismissing the books of the Septuagint read all over Palestinian synanogues in Jesus' day. I must have missed that verse in over 10 years of reading the Gospels.
Those 'oral' traditions EVOLVED from Babylon that's why there is zero trace of them before captivity
Another arbitrary claim, arbitrarily denied.
Am saying we have 4,000 years of God's relationship with man documented in the scriptures and ZERO prayers to the dead yet prayer is a central theme.
If you are intellectually honest, dig about Judaism history With careful attention to Captivity. There was no prayer to dead men before captivity
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Am saying we have 4,000 years of God's relationship with man documented in the scriptures and ZERO prayers to the dead yet prayer is a central theme.
In other words, you are saying I have FIRST to reject books you have rejected on your own authority and cut off from scripture, and THEN consider those you have kept, and THEN I'll be able to see your point about "4,000 years of scripture"!?!?!?! I mean, how about first you just accept there's more books than you like, and then see MY point? See how esay it is to pretend to make points without establishing the premises? And by the way, you claimed Jesus dismissed them summarily: IF anything is DISHONEST, that certainly is dishonest, otherwise, find the chapter/verse, s'il vous plait!
If you are intellectually honest, dig about Judaism history With careful attention to Captivity. There was no prayer to dead men before captivity
If you are intellectually honest, first establish WHY you have put a cut off point at which ancient Jewish practices, beliefs and books become irrelevant?
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Luke 11:50-51 (ESV)
50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation.
Pay attention to this verse;
1. The blood of ALL the prophets
2. From Abel in Genesis to Zechariah-2 Chronicles 24:20
Where is your beloved apocrypha?
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Luke 11:50-51 (ESV)
50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation.
Pay attention to this verse;
1. The blood of ALL the prophets
2. From Abel in Genesis to Zechariah-2 Chronicles 24:20
Where is your beloved apocrypha?
1) Which prophet do you think is missing there?
2) Are you saying that you know the exact arrangement of books used in that particular canon he cited?
3) Jews had NO SETTLED canon when Jesus walked the earth. Jesus when condemning the Sadduccees only cited the 5 books of the Torah because the Sadduccess rejected the other books, and when he condemned the Pharisees, he cited the books that the Pharisees accepted. I don't see a condemnation there, only much "reading-into" the bible to support a position already believed.
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Luke 11:50-51 (ESV)
50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation.
Pay attention to this verse;
1. The blood of ALL the prophets
2. From Abel in Genesis to Zechariah-2 Chronicles 24:20
Where is your beloved apocrypha?
Which prophet do you think is missing there?
Jewish Hebrew canon my sista, that's how they arranged it, unlike us who terminate at Malachi. Now, from history (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/3259-bible-canon), we can easily CONFIRM Jesus' words. All God's prophets slain by the Jews are contained here.
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Luke 11:50-51 (ESV)
50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation.
Pay attention to this verse;
1. The blood of ALL the prophets
2. From Abel in Genesis to Zechariah-2 Chronicles 24:20
Where is your beloved apocrypha?
Which prophet do you think is missing there?
Jewish Hebrew canon my sista, that's how they arranged it, unlike us who terminate at Malachi. Now, from history (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/3259-bible-canon), we can easily CONFIRM Jesus' words. All God's prophets slain by the Jews are contained here.
Jews had nothing close to a closed canon in Jesus' day, much less a canon accepted by all. It was Christians who first closed the Canon, and they did this simply by accepting all the books used by Jews in the septuagint and not playing God. Jews had no reason to expect that God would not be sending prophets any more. And Jesus cited books to groups according to the books those groups accepted. Thus, he never cited prophets to Sadduccees, because they only recognized the 5 Torah books, only to Pharisees. There's no "summary dismissal" there, only you are reading things into that verse. Jesus would have to have been stupid to quote prophets to Sadduccees or to quote to Pharisees books they didnt already accept while debating them. If he had said that to his own disciples, you'd have a point.
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Jews had nothing close to a closed canon in Jesus' day, much less a canon accepted by all. It was Christians who first closed the Canon, and they did this simply by accepting all the books used by Jews in the septuagint and not playing God. Jews had no reason to expect that God would not be sending prophets any more. And Jesus cited books to groups according to the books those groups accepted. Thus, he never cited prophets to Sadduccees, because they only recognized the 5 Torah books, only to Pharisees. There's no "summary dismissal" there, only you are reading things into that verse. Jesus would have to have been stupid to quote prophets to Sadduccees or to quote to Pharisees books they didnt already accept while debating them. If he had said that to his own disciples, you'd have a point.
ALL Prophets are those found in whatever Jesus said. Am going with Jesus on this one
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Luke 11:50-51 (ESV)
50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation.
Pay attention to this verse;
1. The blood of ALL the prophets
2. From Abel in Genesis to Zechariah-2 Chronicles 24:20
Where is your beloved apocrypha?
Which prophet do you think is missing there?
Jewish Hebrew canon my sista, that's how they arranged it, unlike us who terminate at Malachi. Now, from history (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/3259-bible-canon), we can easily CONFIRM Jesus' words. All God's prophets slain by the Jews are contained here.
Also, quote just what you mean, that page is far too large.
Jews had nothing close to a closed canon in Jesus' day, much less a canon accepted by all. It was Christians who first closed the Canon, and they did this simply by accepting all the books used by Jews in the septuagint and not playing God. Jews had no reason to expect that God would not be sending prophets any more. And Jesus cited books to groups according to the books those groups accepted. Thus, he never cited prophets to Sadduccees, because they only recognized the 5 Torah books, only to Pharisees. There's no "summary dismissal" there, only you are reading things into that verse. Jesus would have to have been stupid to quote prophets to Sadduccees or to quote to Pharisees books they didnt already accept while debating them. If he had said that to his own disciples, you'd have a point.
ALL Prophets are those found in whatever Jesus said. Am going with Jesus on this one
Are you sure Jesus quoted ALL prophets, even all those in the books you accept? And if Jesus did not quote them, or certain books, will you reject them?
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Daily Bread: Maybe when you find the verse forbidding intercession, I will respond to the verses. I just dont see the point of responding to irrelevant verses to this discussion, though. :)
Daily Bread: Maybe when you find the verse forbidding intercession, I will respond to the verses. I just dont see the point of responding to irrelevant verses to this discussion, though. :)
I'm making the same point as Voke though from a slightly different angle. I'll let him proceed lest you feel you are under attack. Suffice it to say that most of the apocryphal writings rejected by the protestant reformation and accepted by the Catholic church tend to dwell on the theme of dead people communicating messages of dubious origin to the living.
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Daily Bread: Maybe when you find the verse forbidding intercession, I will respond to the verses. I just dont see the point of responding to irrelevant verses to this discussion, though. :)
Daily Bread: Maybe when you find the verse forbidding intercession, I will respond to the verses. I just dont see the point of responding to irrelevant verses to this discussion, though. :)
I'm making the same point as Voke though from a slightly different angle. I'll let him proceed lest you feel you are under attack. Suffice it to say that most of the apocryphal writings rejected by the protestant reformation and accepted by the Catholic church tend to dwell on the theme of dead people communicating messages of dubious origin to the living.
You have clearly never read those books, dead people are in perhaps 2 verses only. You are also wrong in that Protestants follow the canon of the pharisees rather than that followed by the earliest christians (septuagint) who were Jews themselves and were simply following the jewish practice they found. The pharisees rejected that larger Jewish canon precisely because CHRISTIANS were using those books to claim that Jesus was the Jewish messiah because the prophecies there were so accurate. Ironic that christians then come along 1500 years later and support those same pharisees! :)
Septuagint, abbreviation Lxx, the earliest extant Greek translation of the Old Testament from the original Hebrew, presumably made for the use of the Jewish community in Egypt when Greek was the lingua franca throughout the region. Analysis of the language has established that the Torah, or Pentateuch (the first five books of the Old Testament), was translated near the middle of the 3rd century bc and that the rest of the Old Testament was translated in the 2nd century bc.
The name Septuagint (from the Latin septuaginta, “70”) was derived later from the legend that there were 72 translators, 6 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, who worked in separate cells, translating the whole, and in the end all their versions were identical. In fact there are large differences in style and usage between the Septuagint’s translation of the Torah and its translations of the later books in the Old Testament. A tradition that translators were sent to Alexandria by Eleazar, the chief priest at Jerusalem, at the request of Ptolemy II Philadelphus (285–246 bc), a patron of literature, first appeared in the Letter of Aristeas, an unreliable source.
The language of much of the early Christian church was Greek, and it was in the Septuagint text that many early Christians located the prophecies they claimed were fulfilled by Christ. Jews considered this a misuse of Holy Scripture, and they stopped using the Septuagint. Its subsequent history lies within the Christian church.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/535154/Septuagint
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Bella, one need not read Playboy to know it contains porn.
Catholic doctrines based on conscious dead people communicating with the living are borrowed directly from Gnosticism that began to creep into the early church but which the apostles rejected offhand.
From Gnostics website:
http://gnosis.org/gnintro.htm
Humankind contains a perishable physical and psychic component, as well as a spiritual component which is a fragment of the divine essence. This latter part is often symbolically referred to as the “divine spark”. The recognition of this dual nature of the world and of the human being has earned the Gnostic tradition the epithet of “dualist”......
In the course of history, humans progress from materialistic sensate slavery, by way of ethical religiosity, to spiritual freedom and liberating Gnosis. As the scholar G. Quispel wrote: “The world-spirit in exile must go through the Inferno of matter and the Purgatory of morals to arrive at the spiritual Paradise.” This kind of evolution of consciousness was envisioned by the Gnostics, long before the concept of evolution was known.
One particular passage from Maccabbees supporting prayers to the dead and which Catholicism uses.
And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchers of their fathers. And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain. Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden. And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain. And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. (2 Maccabees 12:39-46)
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Bella, one need not read Playboy to know it contains porn.
Catholic doctrines based on conscious dead people communicating with the living are borrowed directly from Gnosticism that began to creep into the early church but which the apostles rejected offhand.
From Gnostics website:
http://gnosis.org/gnintro.htm
Humankind contains a perishable physical and psychic component, as well as a spiritual component which is a fragment of the divine essence. This latter part is often symbolically referred to as the “divine spark”. The recognition of this dual nature of the world and of the human being has earned the Gnostic tradition the epithet of “dualist”......
In the course of history, humans progress from materialistic sensate slavery, by way of ethical religiosity, to spiritual freedom and liberating Gnosis. As the scholar G. Quispel wrote: “The world-spirit in exile must go through the Inferno of matter and the Purgatory of morals to arrive at the spiritual Paradise.” This kind of evolution of consciousness was envisioned by the Gnostics, long before the concept of evolution was known.
I assure you the catholic church did not author the encyclopedia Britannica. I have read those books, not websites, and they are all TYPICAL Old Testament Jewish books urging Jews not to abandon their covenant or the Torah and hoping in the coming of the Messiah. You are relying on rumours, my sister. In the 21st century of free information, there is no excuse for such ignorance.
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Are you saying the Jews used the apocrypha/Septuagint as the word of God before and during Jesus' time in Palestine? The Bible of old and in the 21st century shows the dead know not anything and that God explicitly condemns prayers to dead people. You asked for verses and I gave you some.
There is no biblical basis for canonization or prayers to the dead by living saints. If you have such a verse (outside the apocrypha of course), post it.
Bella, one need not read Playboy to know it contains porn.
Catholic doctrines based on conscious dead people communicating with the living are borrowed directly from Gnosticism that began to creep into the early church but which the apostles rejected offhand.
From Gnostics website:
http://gnosis.org/gnintro.htm
Humankind contains a perishable physical and psychic component, as well as a spiritual component which is a fragment of the divine essence. This latter part is often symbolically referred to as the “divine spark”. The recognition of this dual nature of the world and of the human being has earned the Gnostic tradition the epithet of “dualist”......
In the course of history, humans progress from materialistic sensate slavery, by way of ethical religiosity, to spiritual freedom and liberating Gnosis. As the scholar G. Quispel wrote: “The world-spirit in exile must go through the Inferno of matter and the Purgatory of morals to arrive at the spiritual Paradise.” This kind of evolution of consciousness was envisioned by the Gnostics, long before the concept of evolution was known.
I assure you the catholic church did not author the encyclopedia Britannica. I have read those books, not websites, and they are all TYPICAL Old Testament Jewish books urging Jews not to abandon their covenant or the Torah and hoping in the coming of the Messiah. You are relying on rumours, my sister. In the 21st century of free information, there is no excuse for such ignorance.
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Luke 11:50-51 (ESV)
50 so that thee blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation.
Pay attention to this verse;
1. The blood of ALL the prophets
2. From Abel in Genesis to Zechariah-2 Chronicles 24:20
Where is your beloved apocrypha?
Which prophet do you think is missing there?
Jewish Hebrew canon my sista, that's how they arranged it, unlike us who terminate at Malachi. Now, from history (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/3259-bible-canon), we can easily CONFIRM Jesus' words. All God's prophets slain by the Jews are contained here.
Also, quote just what you mean, that page is far too large.
Jews had nothing close to a closed canon in Jesus' day, much less a canon accepted by all. It was Christians who first closed the Canon, and they did this simply by accepting all the books used by Jews in the septuagint and not playing God. Jews had no reason to expect that God would not be sending prophets any more. And Jesus cited books to groups according to the books those groups accepted. Thus, he never cited prophets to Sadduccees, because they only recognized the 5 Torah books, only to Pharisees. There's no "summary dismissal" there, only you are reading things into that verse. Jesus would have to have been stupid to quote prophets to Sadduccees or to quote to Pharisees books they didnt already accept while debating them. If he had said that to his own disciples, you'd have a point.
ALL Prophets are those found in whatever Jesus said. Am going with Jesus on this one
Are you sure Jesus quoted ALL prophets, even all those in the books you accept? And if Jesus did not quote them, or certain books, will you reject them?
Kadame,
Can't put it better than Jesus
'the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah,'
Blood of ALL prophets shed from the foundation of the world FROM Abel TO Zechariah. The two are reference points; them and all between them. It would have been absurd/illogical if outside the ALL from Abel to Zechariah you had others
Point remains,
Jesus defined ALL, am with Jesus on this one
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Luke 11:50-51 (ESV)
50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation.
Pay attention to this verse;
1. The blood of ALL the prophets
2. From Abel in Genesis to Zechariah-2 Chronicles 24:20
Where is your beloved apocrypha?
Jesus knew what the prophets had said. If Maccabbees was right that the dead are conscious, Jesus would have been freely roaming Jerusalem for three days and three nights before the resurrection and assuring the distraught disciples that He wasn't really dead.
Luke 24
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
[/b]
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Jesus knew what the prophets had said. If Maccabbees was right that the dead are conscious, Jesus would have been freely roaming Jerusalem for three days and three nights before the resurrection and assuring the distraught disciples that He wasn't really dead.
Nonsensical reasoning. Consciousness beyond death is not derived from apocrypha. It is in the 66 books. Maccabaeus among other apocrypha Catholicism cling to them becausethey teaches praying FOR the the dead,stuff you NEVER find in scriptures. This later evolved to praying TO the dead, some christianized necromancy
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Kadame,
Can't put it better than Jesus
'the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah,'
Blood of ALL prophets shed from the foundation of the world FROM Abel TO Zechariah. The two are reference points; them and all between them. It would have been absurd/illogical if outside the ALL from Abel to Zechariah you had others
Point remains,
Jesus defined ALL, am with Jesus on this one
I don't think Jesus is with you, though. If he was defining ALL the prophets, where would you place St. John the Baptist, the greatest of them all, according to Jesus? :D
The problem is you are trying to force Jesus to say things he never did, so you are making Jesus contradict Jesus in order to help vooke make a point. That whole verse in context:
Woe to you! You build the memorials of the prophets whom your ancestors killed. 48 Consequently, you bear witness and give consent to the deeds of your ancestors, for they killed them and you do the building. 49 Therefore, the wisdom of God said, 'I will send to them prophets and apostles; some of them they will kill and persecute' 50 in order that this generation might be charged with the blood of all the prophets shed since the foundation of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who died between the altar and the temple building. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be charged with their blood!
Jesus condemning Pharisees for pretending to honour prophets whose example they did not follow, it is to these prophets honoured by pharisees that "ALL" refers to. :)
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Jesus knew what the prophets had said. If Maccabbees was right that the dead are conscious, Jesus would have been freely roaming Jerusalem for three days and three nights before the resurrection and assuring the distraught disciples that He wasn't really dead.
Nonsensical reasoning. Consciousness beyond death is not derived from apocrypha. It is in the 66 books. Maccabaeus among other apocrypha Catholicism cling to them becausethey teaches praying FOR the the dead,stuff you NEVER find in scriptures. This later evolved to praying TO the dead, some christianized necromancy
I thought you had been delivered of the demon of ad hominem. You're splitting dead hairs here. Praying for and to mean one recognizes that the dead are not dead, and if they are not dead, they are conscious, and if conscious they can hear prayers for and to them. You cannot argue for prayers FOR the dead without accepting the Catholic position of prayers TO the dead because they are two sides of the same coin.
What does "pray" mean? It means to implore, ask. When people ask Mary to pray for them, they are praying to her first, just like Mozambicans are reported to have prayed to Nyaatha for water to last them their period of suffering. "She" answered the prayer (asking) hence the canonization. Please post any of the 66 books which show consciousness in death and support your previous arguments against Bella's beliefs.
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Kadame,
Can't put it better than Jesus
'the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah,'
Blood of ALL prophets shed from the foundation of the world FROM Abel TO Zechariah. The two are reference points; them and all between them. It would have been absurd/illogical if outside the ALL from Abel to Zechariah you had others
Point remains,
Jesus defined ALL, am with Jesus on this one
I don't think Jesus is with you, though. If he was defining ALL the prophets, where would you place St. John the Baptist, the greatest of them all, according to Jesus? :D
The problem is you are trying to force Jesus to say things he never did, so you are making Jesus contradict Jesus in order to help vooke make a point. That whole verse in context:
Woe to you! You build the memorials of the prophets whom your ancestors killed. 48 Consequently, you bear witness and give consent to the deeds of your ancestors, for they killed them and you do the building. 49 Therefore, the wisdom of God said, 'I will send to them prophets and apostles; some of them they will kill and persecute' 50 in order that this generation might be charged with the blood of all the prophets shed since the foundation of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who died between the altar and the temple building. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be charged with their blood!
Jesus condemning Pharisees for pretending to honour prophets whose example they did not follow, it is to these prophets honoured by pharisees that "ALL" refers to. :)
kadame,
John had just been slain and there was no record of John in the Hebrew canon. Jesus himself excluded himself from that. On the other hand, the apocrypha had existed for hundreds of years before he said this word. This verse clearly shows what Jesus deemed as prophets and who he didn't.
Apocrypha are good for historical value but zero doctrine. Deriving a doctrine from there at the expense of the scriptures is desperation incarnate.
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Jesus knew what the prophets had said. If Maccabbees was right that the dead are conscious, Jesus would have been freely roaming Jerusalem for three days and three nights before the resurrection and assuring the distraught disciples that He wasn't really dead.
Nonsensical reasoning. Consciousness beyond death is not derived from apocrypha. It is in the 66 books. Maccabaeus among other apocrypha Catholicism cling to them becausethey teaches praying FOR the the dead,stuff you NEVER find in scriptures. This later evolved to praying TO the dead, some christianized necromancy
I thought you had been delivered of the demon of ad hominem. You're splitting dead hairs here. What does "pray" mean? It means to implore, ask. When people ask Mary to pray for them, they are praying to her first, just like Mozambicans are reported to have prayed to Nyaatha for water to last them their period of suffering. "She" answered the prayer (asking) hence the canonization. Please post any of the 66 books which show consciousness in death and support your previous arguments against Bella's beliefs.
We have had this discussion before and if you haven't learnt anything, maybe you will never learn at all. Stick to what you know best; quoting Ellen White and peeing in your pants against your name coming up in the ongoing Investigative Judgement.
In case you never knew, Investigative Judgement inconsistencies with spirit consciousness forced your pioneers to drop one to retain the other. Which is quite unfortunate seeing IJ itself was invent d and developed to cover up a failed prophecy instead of admitting errors. Talk of removing a hole by cutting it off
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We have had this discussion before and if you haven't learnt anything, maybe you will never learn at all. Stick to what you know best; quoting Ellen White and peeing in your pants against your name coming up in the ongoing Investigative Judgement.
In case you never knew, Investigative Judgement inconsistencies with spirit consciousness forced your pioneers to drop one to retain the other. Which is quite unfortunate seeing IJ itself was invent d and developed to cover up a failed prophecy instead of admitting errors. Talk of removing a hole by cutting it off
You need to accept deliverance from the demon of ad hominem (or seven worse ones recently just moved in?). Before moving off tangent to investigative judgment, please post the 66 verses showing the dead should be prayed FOR. If you accept the dead are prayed for what is your problem with Bella's position of praying TO them?
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Kadame,
Can't put it better than Jesus
'the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah,'
Blood of ALL prophets shed from the foundation of the world FROM Abel TO Zechariah. The two are reference points; them and all between them. It would have been absurd/illogical if outside the ALL from Abel to Zechariah you had others
Point remains,
Jesus defined ALL, am with Jesus on this one
I don't think Jesus is with you, though. If he was defining ALL the prophets, where would you place St. John the Baptist, the greatest of them all, according to Jesus? :D
The problem is you are trying to force Jesus to say things he never did, so you are making Jesus contradict Jesus in order to help vooke make a point. That whole verse in context:
Woe to you! You build the memorials of the prophets whom your ancestors killed. 48 Consequently, you bear witness and give consent to the deeds of your ancestors, for they killed them and you do the building. 49 Therefore, the wisdom of God said, 'I will send to them prophets and apostles; some of them they will kill and persecute' 50 in order that this generation might be charged with the blood of all the prophets shed since the foundation of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who died between the altar and the temple building. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be charged with their blood!
Jesus condemning Pharisees for pretending to honour prophets whose example they did not follow, it is to these prophets honoured by pharisees that "ALL" refers to. :)
kadame,
John had just been slain and there was no record of John in the Hebrew canon. Jesus himself excluded himself from that. On the other hand, the apocrypha had existed for hundreds of years before he said this word. This verse clearly shows what Jesus deemed as prophets and who he didn't.
Apocrypha are good for historical value but zero doctrine. Deriving a doctrine from there at the expense of the scriptures is desperation incarnate.
vooke, those reasons you've cited are good reasons why your interpretation is false. Jesus was not even talking about a canon of scripture. He simply referred to prophets whom the Pharisees honoured. It was YOU who claimed that Jesus' use of ALL amounts to an exhaustive list of prophets. Its clearly not. Therefore the whole point is moot. Jesus was talking to people who recognized certain people as "all" the prophets, clearly not recognizing either him or John, he was not binding himself to their beliefs but rather debating them on their own terms, exactly as he did with sadduccees. :)
You have no basis to say what is scripture. Jesus lived in a time in which the Septuagint was read in virtually all synagogues on Saturdays, assuming he saw that and never condemned it, IS what is desperation, something yo can only assume if you already accept the later canon of Pharisees done to counter Christian claims about Jesus being the Messiah.
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We have had this discussion before and if you haven't learnt anything, maybe you will never learn at all. Stick to what you know best; quoting Ellen White and peeing in your pants against your name coming up in the ongoing Investigative Judgement.
In case you never knew, Investigative Judgement inconsistencies with spirit consciousness forced your pioneers to drop one to retain the other. Which is quite unfortunate seeing IJ itself was invent d and developed to cover up a failed prophecy instead of admitting errors. Talk of removing a hole by cutting it off
You need to accept deliverance from the demon of ad hominem (or seven worse ones recently just moved in?). Before moving off tangent to investigative judgment, please post the 66 verses showing the dead should be prayed FOR. If you accept the dead are prayed for what is your problem with Bella's position of praying TO them?
The only sin greater than worshipping a dead mad woman is bankruptcy of comprehension.
Who said the dead should be prayed for?
I said the only reason apocrypha are beloved by Catholicism is because they are the source of some catholic doctrines not found in other scriptures including praying to saints.
Praying to saints first started with praying FOR the dead. This mutated to praying TO the dead. Both are unscriptural
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Kadame,
Can't put it better than Jesus
'the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah,'
Blood of ALL prophets shed from the foundation of the world FROM Abel TO Zechariah. The two are reference points; them and all between them. It would have been absurd/illogical if outside the ALL from Abel to Zechariah you had others
Point remains,
Jesus defined ALL, am with Jesus on this one
I don't think Jesus is with you, though. If he was defining ALL the prophets, where would you place St. John the Baptist, the greatest of them all, according to Jesus? :D
The problem is you are trying to force Jesus to say things he never did, so you are making Jesus contradict Jesus in order to help vooke make a point. That whole verse in context:
Woe to you! You build the memorials of the prophets whom your ancestors killed. 48 Consequently, you bear witness and give consent to the deeds of your ancestors, for they killed them and you do the building. 49 Therefore, the wisdom of God said, 'I will send to them prophets and apostles; some of them they will kill and persecute' 50 in order that this generation might be charged with the blood of all the prophets shed since the foundation of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who died between the altar and the temple building. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be charged with their blood!
Jesus condemning Pharisees for pretending to honour prophets whose example they did not follow, it is to these prophets honoured by pharisees that "ALL" refers to. :)
kadame,
John had just been slain and there was no record of John in the Hebrew canon. Jesus himself excluded himself from that. On the other hand, the apocrypha had existed for hundreds of years before he said this word. This verse clearly shows what Jesus deemed as prophets and who he didn't.
Apocrypha are good for historical value but zero doctrine. Deriving a doctrine from there at the expense of the scriptures is desperation incarnate.
vooke, those reasons you've cited are good reasons why your interpretation is false. Jesus was not even talking about a canon of scripture. He simply referred to prophets whom the Pharisees honoured. It was YOU who claimed that Jesus' use of ALL amounts to an exhaustive list of prophets. Its clearly not. Therefore the whole point is moot. Jesus was talking to people who recognized certain people as "all" the prophets, clearly not recognizing either him or John, he was not binding himself to their beliefs but rather debating them on their own terms, exactly as he did with sadduccees. :)
You have no basis to say what is scripture. Jesus lived in a time in which the Septuagint was read in virtually all synagogues on Saturdays, assuming he saw that and never condemned it, IS what is desperation, something yo can only assume if you already accept the later canon of Pharisees done to counter Christian claims about Jesus being the Messiah.
nice try.
If they never honored the intertesamental prophets, then that's more a reason to include them here if they were really sent of God! the point was these guys were resisting God's message by killing the messengers.
The apocrypha were for good reasons kept by themselves outside the Hebrew canon. Jesus lambasting the Jews for killing prophets just mentions prophets in the Hebrew canon. Tells me all I need to know about apocrypha; whatever they be, they are no scriptures.
PS: do you think they were killing prophets in apocrypha? It's quite possible they stopped killing them right after captivity....just giving a reason why apocrypha prophets were duly ignored; they was not slain 8)