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Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: Nowayhaha on September 13, 2021, 12:45:00 PM

Title: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Nowayhaha on September 13, 2021, 12:45:00 PM
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: RV Kirgit on September 13, 2021, 01:03:41 PM
Who sold a whole county to colonialist white supremacy?

They all moved out of Karen and environs and settled in one county.

I saw matiangi sent military to protect them from natives
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Nowayhaha on September 13, 2021, 04:04:11 PM
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Kadudu on September 13, 2021, 04:18:29 PM
Good to know you do not only specialise in covid-19 myths.
Btw, whom are you labeling natives?

Who sold a whole county to colonialist white supremacy?

They all moved out of Karen and environs and settled in one county.

I saw matiangi sent military to protect them from natives
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: RV Pundit on September 13, 2021, 04:37:40 PM
Solution is simple.
Give Maasai that land.
And they will sell it mostly to Kikuyu in 10yrs top.
Kikuyu will move in their number - and fence it off.
Maasai pastoralism will end
And problem solved.

Gov should compulsory acquire most of these ranches - pay off the British.
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Kadudu on September 13, 2021, 04:49:56 PM
Which Maasai should get it? anybody with Maasai blood can make a claim?

Solution is simple.
Give Maasai that land.
And they will sell it mostly to Kikuyu in 10yrs top.
Kikuyu will move in their number - and fence it off.
Maasai pastoralism will end
And problem solved.

Gov should compulsory acquire most of these ranches - pay off the British.
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: RV Pundit on September 13, 2021, 05:28:51 PM
Local maasai already squatting there...should be registered and given free land
Which Maasai should get it? anybody with Maasai blood can make a claim?
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Nowayhaha on September 14, 2021, 12:48:10 PM
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Nowayhaha on September 14, 2021, 12:49:31 PM
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: RV Pundit on September 14, 2021, 01:33:57 PM
Agree - relocate that Nairobi National Park - and take it to Turkana. This congame need to be called out.
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Nowayhaha on September 14, 2021, 02:21:40 PM
or the better option or relocating Capital City to Isiolo.
But the Oligarchs who own buildings will never accept this option.

Agree - relocate that Nairobi National Park - and take it to Turkana. This congame need to be called out.
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Kadudu on September 14, 2021, 03:09:11 PM
Better relocate all Nairobians back to where they originate from and leave the Maasai and the animals to reclaim back their land.

Agree - relocate that Nairobi National Park - and take it to Turkana. This congame need to be called out.
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: RV Pundit on September 14, 2021, 05:48:49 PM
Bottom of you are wrong.
Nairobi has by happenstance become important city.
It has economies of LOCATION  - this is NOT EASY TO CREATE.
Nairobi should be expanded...it the cows that gives the milk.
Not reduced.
Nairobi National Park - the land itself is worth serious money
Imagine 30,000 acres where land is about 1Million dollars - at very least.
That is clean 30B dollars.
Give it to Chinese to build us a new city
And send the animals to Siberia....they can go join Amboselli.
We can have a few in the orphanage and zoo.

Then move the people living in slums, eastland and rest to the new city of Nairobi National Park.

That will inject economy with maybe 100B dollars.

As for animals - surely who keep wild animals in the middle of the city in 30,000 acres of land??????????? Even richest countries CANNOT JUSTIFY SUCH NOENSE FROM CONgame conservatist..

We are wasting a lot of money - to keep a few miserable animal in a city of noise and pollution.
Move the animals

If I am Ruto in my second term - I will degazatte Nairobi National Park - Give KWS alternative land of 200,000 acres in ISIOLO. Let it become the resort city of kenya. CONservation Protesters should face slum dwellers of Kibra living worse than animals. They already made kibra people part of Nairobi National Park - with slum tourism.

Nairobi is business and industrial city - Amboselli is few kilometers away - go there and see animals.

Better relocate all Nairobians back to where they originate from and leave the Maasai and the animals to reclaim back their land.
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: vooke on September 14, 2021, 09:09:54 PM
How will a new city generate revenue?
What will slumdogs do at national park they can’t do in Kibra valley?

Nairobi is bulging on Kiambu and Kajiado front. That’s exactly what would happen over the park were it so suddenly vanish.

Buildings don’t magically generate income

Bottom of you are wrong.
Nairobi has by happenstance become important city.
It has economies of LOCATION  - this is NOT EASY TO CREATE.
Nairobi should be expanded...it the cows that gives the milk.
Not reduced.
Nairobi National Park - the land itself is worth serious money
Imagine 30,000 acres where land is about 1Million dollars - at very least.
That is clean 30B dollars.
Give it to Chinese to build us a new city
And send the animals to Siberia....they can go join Amboselli.
We can have a few in the orphanage and zoo.

Then move the people living in slums, eastland and rest to the new city of Nairobi National Park.

That will inject economy with maybe 100B dollars.

As for animals - surely who keep wild animals in the middle of the city in 30,000 acres of land??????????? Even richest countries CANNOT JUSTIFY SUCH NOENSE FROM CONgame conservatist..

We are wasting a lot of money - to keep a few miserable animal in a city of noise and pollution.
Move the animals

If I am Ruto in my second term - I will degazatte Nairobi National Park - Give KWS alternative land of 200,000 acres in ISIOLO. Let it become the resort city of kenya. CONservation Protesters should face slum dwellers of Kibra living worse than animals. They already made kibra people part of Nairobi National Park - with slum tourism.

Nairobi is business and industrial city - Amboselli is few kilometers away - go there and see animals.

Better relocate all Nairobians back to where they originate from and leave the Maasai and the animals to reclaim back their land.
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: RV Pundit on September 14, 2021, 09:40:13 PM
The poor need to live walking distance to industrial area, rich neighborhood and offices where they work as cleaners, factory workers, and the likes...unless you invest free mass transport.

Transport from Kiambu or Kitengela to Nairobi and back - alone is 200shs - for people who at best earn 400shs - on a good day - they will be working for transport.

Suburbs worlwide are for the rich - not the poor. The poor need to stay in the inner ci.

So move the animals to Kajiado - and let mass affordable housing be enacted to give our poor decent affordable living.

Otherwise it's CONservancy; it useless feel good animal park of 30,000 with a smattering of animals - of doubtful ecological benefit.

Meanwhile half of Nairobi live in slums; cram like sardines; while a few lions roam 30,000 acres.

And yet we have Tsavo and entire north kenya for those animals.

Ohoo we got the only national park in the city :) :) who cares? It earns nothing; Meanwhile we have worst slums in Africa.

Give chinese those 30K acres - and ask them to put two million residential units,

All the white conservancies bla de bla should be deported - if they cannot value human life - but prefer animal life. If animals are so important - let them pay enough money for it.

How will a new city generate revenue?
What will slumdogs do at national park they can’t do in Kibra valley?

Nairobi is bulging on Kiambu and Kajiado front. That’s exactly what would happen over the park were it so suddenly vanish.

Buildings don’t magically generate income
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: vooke on September 14, 2021, 09:59:49 PM
They use trains which are e cheaper while the dirt poor walk to work

Seems like your only argument is they will save a few coins in transport. Is that how to generate hundreds of billions?

The poor need to live walking distance to industrial area, rich neighborhood and offices where they work as cleaners, factory workers, and the likes...unless you invest free mass transport.

Transport from Kiambu or Kitengela to Nairobi and back - alone is 200shs - for people who at best earn 400shs - on a good day - they will be working for transport.

Suburbs worlwide are for the rich - not the poor. The poor need to stay in the inner ci.

So move the animals to Kajiado - and let mass affordable housing be enacted to give our poor decent affordable living.

Otherwise it's CONservancy; it useless feel good animal park of 30,000 with a smattering of animals - of doubtful ecological benefit.

Meanwhile half of Nairobi live in slums; cram like sardines; while a few lions roam 30,000 acres.

And yet we have Tsavo and entire north kenya for those animals.

Ohoo we got the only national park in the city :) :) who cares? It earns nothing; Meanwhile we have worst slums in Africa.

Give chinese those 30K acres - and ask them to put two million residential units,

All the white conservancies bla de bla should be deported - if they cannot value human life - but prefer animal life. If animals are so important - let them pay enough money for it.

How will a new city generate revenue?
What will slumdogs do at national park they can’t do in Kibra valley?

Nairobi is bulging on Kiambu and Kajiado front. That’s exactly what would happen over the park were it so suddenly vanish.

Buildings don’t magically generate income
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: RV Pundit on September 14, 2021, 10:22:05 PM
My argument is 30B dollars worth of prime real estate in the middle of a city like Nairobi should not be wasted on some few lions.
We can use part of it to settle slum dwellers, part of it to do so much.
30,000 acres is a lot.
NNP is about 1/5 of Nairobi landmass.
They use trains which are e cheaper while the dirt poor walk to work
Seems like your only argument is they will save a few coins in transport. Is that how to generate hundreds of billions?
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Arcadian_Dreamer on September 15, 2021, 12:47:47 AM
Agree - relocate that Nairobi National Park - and take it to Turkana. This congame need to be called out.

Why bring up Nairobi National Park? Who is agitating for that land?

Has Ruto not stolen enough land already?

You are a funny incoherent mosquito aki

Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: RV Pundit on September 15, 2021, 12:55:03 AM
If Luo did not have low self esteem they wont be happy to live in slums - and for animals to live like kings.
When Ruto will become PORK.
Hio NNP tutakawa
Hio Gigiri sijui Ngong forest we will half it.
Which city allows prime land to be wasted when people are living in deplorable poverty?

Humans first. People have immediate needs. And you're telling us sijui climate change. No poverty is killing people NOW

Peleka climate change out of a city to turkana where land per acre is 10k.

But we rather 2m people live in the most deplorable slums worldwide - I have yet to see another kibra or mukuru in my travels -and sing about climate change.

Classic case of low self esteem - please have some self respect and refuse to be comfortable living on top of sewer line like a sewer rat...we deserve better than few lions roaming 30,000 of prime land.


Why bring up Nairobi National Park? Who is agitating for that land?

Has Ruto not stolen enough land already?

You are a funny incoherent mosquito aki


Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Arcadian_Dreamer on September 15, 2021, 01:12:42 AM
If Luo did not have low self esteem they wont be happy to live in slums - and for animals to live like kings.
When Ruto will become PORK.
Hio NNP tutakawa
Hio Gigiri sijui Ngong forest we will half it.
Which city allows prime land to be wasted when people are living in deplorable poverty?

Humans first. People have immediate needs. And you're telling us sijui climate change. No poverty is killing people NOW

Peleka climate change out of a city to turkana where land per acre is 10k.

I'm beginning to suspect your Gema drinking buddy occasionally logs in under you handle  :D

Jaluo this and that...wacha ukabila na concentrate on the matter at hand.

Why are you endlessly calling for de-gazettement of Nairobi National Park?

Kuna nini hapo? Kwani looter alimbiwa kuna madini hapo?


As for the rest of your anti environmental diatribes, pure diarrhea.

Even Luto can't dare touch those resources. The days of Moi are over.

We have restored Mau forest, deal with it.
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: RV Pundit on September 15, 2021, 01:18:45 AM
We have to tell ourselves the truth.
We cannot be happy when 50 percent of Nairobeans are living in such deplorable condition.
It goes against my upbringing as Kalenjin - we are very communal just people.
I cannot be happy when Kibra is staring at me - in fact - if Ruto become president - we need to plant trees around kibra.
It really pricks my conscience and I would never live in langata.

And just opposite of Langata - lies 30B dollars resources.

Ruto wont go for this in 1st term - but 2nd term - hapo Ruto will start with NNP - by then Ruto will have incited Slum dwellers and they will invade it.

Beside Ruto has Phd in Plant ecology and all things enviroment - so he will be the enviromental expert.

People DO NOT DESTROY environment for fun.

Maasai do not overgraze and overstock for fun.

It's because of poverty. Kipsigis invading Mau are not rich - they are poor - cutting trees to grow food. Not to keep few lions

As we work on family planning - there has to be flexibility - in using our resources better including forests and animal parks.

We have to constantly do the maths. We cannot AFFORD to buy DEVELOPED world luxuries. Even Trump said NOPE to climate change.

Is NNP giving us anything apart from bragging rights? Ecologically? Economically.

Natural resources are NOT GOD - to be left virgin - they are to be used - we just have to study the ecological and economic - opportunity cost - and see. Maybe if we delete NNP - and give KWS money to buy land in Turkana and keep many animals - it will be better.

of course rich white people from developed world will cause chaos but this is 2020 - not 1990s when Moi depended on donor aid.

Some of these racist people will donate billion of dollars if they heard animals were dying - but donate zero - if they heard African were dying - for them black people are worse than their dogs - their dogs live pampered life - more than a kibera kid will ever dream of.

I'm beginning to suspect your Gema drinking buddy occasionally logs in under you handle  :D

Jaluo this and that...wacha ukabila na concentrate on the matter at hand.

Why are you endlessly calling for de-gazettement of Nairobi National Park?

Kuna nini hapo? Kwani looter alimbiwa kuna madini hapo?


As for the rest of your anti environmental diatribes, pure diarrhea.

Even Luto can't dare touch those resources. The days of Moi are over.

We have restored Mau forest, deal with it.
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Arcadian_Dreamer on September 15, 2021, 02:15:21 AM
We have to tell ourselves the truth.
We cannot be happy when 50 percent of Nairobeans are living in such deplorable condition.
It goes against my upbringing as Kalenjin - we are very communal just people.
I cannot be happy when Kibra is staring at me - in fact - if Ruto become president - we need to plant trees around kibra.
It really pricks my conscience and I would never live in langata.

And just opposite of Langata - lies 30B dollars resources.

Ruto wont go for this in 1st term - but 2nd term - hapo Ruto will start with NNP - by then Ruto will have incited Slum dwellers and they will invade it.

Beside Ruto has Phd in Plant ecology and all things enviroment - so he will be the enviromental expert.

People DO NOT DESTROY environment for fun.

Maasai do not overgraze and overstock for fun.

It's because of poverty. Kipsigis invading Mau are not rich - they are poor - cutting trees to grow food. Not to keep few lions

As we work on family planning - there has to be flexibility - in using our resources better including forests and animal parks.

We have to constantly do the maths. We cannot AFFORD to buy DEVELOPED world luxuries. Even Trump said NOPE to climate change.

Is NNP giving us anything apart from bragging rights? Ecologically? Economically.

Natural resources are NOT GOD - to be left virgin - they are to be used - we just have to study the ecological and economic - opportunity cost - and see. Maybe if we delete NNP - and give KWS money to buy land in Turkana and keep many animals - it will be better.

of course rich white people from developed world will cause chaos but this is 2020 - not 1990s when Moi depended on donor aid.

Some of these racist people will donate billion of dollars if they heard animals were dying - but donate zero - if they heard African were dying - for them black people are worse than their dogs - their dogs live pampered life - more than a kibera kid will ever dream of.

Without even going to the environmental demerits of degazetting NNP, it won't benefit the small guy the land will be snapped up by a coalition of rich foreigners and Mt Kenya elites. Not smart.

2nd objection: We are mismanaging the land we already have access to, having access to more land won't make us better stewards.

Contraception is free stop having kids ovyo ovyo and life will be good.


Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: RV Pundit on September 15, 2021, 08:14:47 AM
I doubt NNP is of any ecological significance - that reducing it to a respectable zoo - would impact anyone. Already with closure of the corridor to Amboselli - it's dead - and is more a glorified zoo.

Yes a few fat cats will benefit more but generally humans will benefit.

Contraception is for the future - unless you want us to kill those already born and living in deep poverty.

Without even going to the environmental demerits of degazetting NNP, it won't benefit the small guy the land will be snapped up by a coalition of rich foreigners and Mt Kenya elites. Not smart.

2nd objection: We are mismanaging the land we already have access to, having access to more land won't make us better stewards.

Contraception is free stop having kids ovyo ovyo and life will be good.



Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: vooke on September 15, 2021, 09:09:48 AM
Zero sum

Whoever buys 30,000 acres has enough options as we speak to burn cash.

So disposing it adds NOTHING to the economy

My argument is 30B dollars worth of prime real estate in the middle of a city like Nairobi should not be wasted on some few lions.
We can use part of it to settle slum dwellers, part of it to do so much.
30,000 acres is a lot.
NNP is about 1/5 of Nairobi landmass.
They use trains which are e cheaper while the dirt poor walk to work
Seems like your only argument is they will save a few coins in transport. Is that how to generate hundreds of billions?
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Arcadian_Dreamer on September 15, 2021, 09:12:31 AM
I doubt NNP is of any ecological significance - that reducing it to a respectable zoo - would impact anyone. Already with closure of the corridor to Amboselli - it's dead - and is more a glorified zoo.

Yes a few fat cats will benefit more but generally humans will benefit.

Contraception is for the future - unless you want us to kill those already born and living in deep poverty.

What is it about NNP that has you salivating bana ?  :D :D

Hakuna kale hapo, Mt Kenya elites and foreigners stand to profit as I said, the average Nairobi dweller will not see any benefit instead they will lose green lung  sorely needed in densely populated toxic urban concrete jungle.

Even more puzzling you don't want to touch mzungu ranches in Laikipia but you would have us knock down a national park?

Make me understand you logic.

Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: RV Pundit on September 15, 2021, 09:32:38 AM
It's public land for public good. Gov will be one selling or using it for public good projects. This will unlock 30B dollars to Nairobi economy compared to maybe 1M dollars we now get. Econ 101. You should go back to Common Sense 101.
Zero sum

Whoever buys 30,000 acres has enough options as we speak to burn cash.

So disposing it adds NOTHING to the economy
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: RV Pundit on September 15, 2021, 09:35:12 AM
It's prime land - 5kms from Nairobi city. Show me a city with national park - in the world - it doesnt exist.  It doesnt make economic sense.

As for Laikipia - the land is private - and gov will have to spend our tax money to buy it for pastoralism. There is no other way to resolve that - grabbing their land will crush FDI and will send wrong signal on private property.

As for Kericho or Kakuzi - the land is own by county govs - it's a community land - and that should be easy problem to sort.


What is it about NNP that has you salivating bana ?  :D :D

Hakuna kale hapo, Mt Kenya elites and foreigners stand to profit as I said, the average Nairobi dweller will not see any benefit instead they will lose green lung  sorely needed in densely populated toxic urban concrete jungle.

Even more puzzling you don't want to touch mzungu ranches in Laikipia but you would have us knock down a national park?

Make me understand you logic.


Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: vooke on September 15, 2021, 10:03:50 AM
They could start by disposing shares in Safcon and thousands of other parcels if it was all about raising cash.

Only crooks benefit from public-private transfers.

It's prime land - 5kms from Nairobi city. Show me a city with national park - in the world - it doesnt exist.  It doesnt make economic sense.

As for Laikipia - the land is private - and gov will have to spend our tax money to buy it for pastoralism. There is no other way to resolve that - grabbing their land will crush FDI and will send wrong signal on private property.

As for Kericho or Kakuzi - the land is own by county govs - it's a community land - and that should be easy problem to sort.


What is it about NNP that has you salivating bana ?  :D :D

Hakuna kale hapo, Mt Kenya elites and foreigners stand to profit as I said, the average Nairobi dweller will not see any benefit instead they will lose green lung  sorely needed in densely populated toxic urban concrete jungle.

Even more puzzling you don't want to touch mzungu ranches in Laikipia but you would have us knock down a national park?

Make me understand you logic.


It's public land for public good. Gov will be one selling or using it for public good projects. This will unlock 30B dollars to Nairobi economy compared to maybe 1M dollars we now get. Econ 101. You should go back to Common Sense 101.
Zero sum

Whoever buys 30,000 acres has enough options as we speak to burn cash.

So disposing it adds NOTHING to the economy
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Arcadian_Dreamer on September 15, 2021, 10:04:10 AM
It's prime land - 5kms from Nairobi city. Show me a city with national park - in the world - it doesnt exist.  It doesnt make economic sense.

All National Parks are prime land, what is your argument?

Mau is prime land too  8)

Should we degazette it?

As for Laikipia - the land is private - and gov will have to spend our tax money to buy it for pastoralism. There is no other way to resolve that - grabbing their land will crush FDI and will send wrong signal on private property.

As for Kericho or Kakuzi - the land is own by county govs - it's a community land - and that should be easy problem to sort.

Mogotio goat  :D :D

Not all the land is owned by White ranchers, the largest is held by the government. There is a conspiracy by the government, black settlers and white ranchers to push out the pastoralist natives. Kenya ina wenyewe, there are second class citizens in this country whose life and land are very cheap.
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Kadudu on September 15, 2021, 11:36:51 AM
Nairobi.
You are contradicting yourself. Leave NNP alone and concentrate on Laikipia and Mau. NNP is not for Kales to discuss about.

It's prime land - 5kms from Nairobi city. Show me a city with national park - in the world - it doesnt exist. It doesnt make economic sense.

As for Laikipia - the land is private - and gov will have to spend our tax money to buy it for pastoralism. There is no other way to resolve that - grabbing their land will crush FDI and will send wrong signal on private property.

As for Kericho or Kakuzi - the land is own by county govs - it's a community land - and that should be easy problem to sort.
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: RV Pundit on September 15, 2021, 01:05:43 PM
We cannot leave 30B dollars staring at us. Stop dreaming. Kales must also own Nairobi. Mau pia is own by Kales and Maasai- it's a community land - for our use when we want. Laikipia pia - pokot need a share. Kericho hiyo ni yetu - we are taking it - for Mzungu mistreated Talais.
Nairobi.
You are contradicting yourself. Leave NNP alone and concentrate on Laikipia and Mau. NNP is not for Kales to discuss about.
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Kadudu on September 15, 2021, 01:23:03 PM
Can you explain why a city state like Singapore has achieved so much despite not having massive land? Land availability is not the issue here, but what you do with the land you have.
I know you want to make another Pipeline out of NNP.
Why have you not called for the scrapping of Uhuru Park and City Park? These are right in the middle of the city. Prime land as you would call them. :D

We cannot leave 30B dollars staring at us. Stop dreaming. Kales must also own Nairobi. Mau pia is own by Kales and Maasai- it's a community land - for our use when we want. Laikipia pia - pokot need a share. Kericho hiyo ni yetu - we are taking it - for Mzungu mistreated Talais.
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: RV Pundit on September 15, 2021, 02:11:20 PM
Singapore is nothing without the straits - the natural suez canal or panama canal that force all asian ships to pass there.
We need more parks like Uhuru parks;
But not NNP or big Karua or Ngong forest
Just 10 percent forest cover in Nairobi.
Nairobi has 45 percent green cover I think
And more than half resident are crammed in slums

Can you explain why a city state like Singapore has achieved so much despite not having massive land? Land availability is not the issue here, but what you do with the land you have.
I know you want to make another Pipeline out of NNP.
Why have you not called for the scrapping of Uhuru Park and City Park? These are right in the middle of the city. Prime land as you would call them. :D

We cannot leave 30B dollars staring at us. Stop dreaming. Kales must also own Nairobi. Mau pia is own by Kales and Maasai- it's a community land - for our use when we want. Laikipia pia - pokot need a share. Kericho hiyo ni yetu - we are taking it - for Mzungu mistreated Talais.[/quote
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Kadudu on September 15, 2021, 03:01:23 PM
Nairobi has a lot of apartments standing empty. Why not start there and move people living in Mathare to these emtpty apartments? Charity stands at home.

Singapore is nothing without the straits - the natural suez canal or panama canal that force all asian ships to pass there.
We need more parks like Uhuru parks;
But not NNP or big Karua or Ngong forest
Just 10 percent forest cover in Nairobi.
Nairobi has 45 percent green cover I think
And more than half resident are crammed in slums
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Arcadian_Dreamer on September 15, 2021, 04:31:35 PM
Nairobi has a lot of apartments standing empty. Why not start there and move people living in Mathare to these emtpty apartments? Charity stands at home.

Start with Weston  :D
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Kadudu on September 15, 2021, 04:37:20 PM
You want Kibera residents to aquire kipindupindu? :D :D :D

Start with Weston  :D
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: RV Pundit on September 15, 2021, 05:08:01 PM
It was a mistake to leave housing entirely to private sector.
When you grew up in Ololo - you lived in cheap public sector housing.
We need the same...British were able to build those house..but we cannot????????
It can only be cheap because gov owns the land.
But if I buy an acre for 1m dollars..
Then housing is already too expensive for Kibera and Mathare slum dwellers.
If a housing developer start with free land, free basic infrastructure,zero rated building materials, then they can build colonial type mass cheap housing schemes for the poor.

We need real cheap public housing where poor can pay 1,000ksh max per month - or they will create more slums.

But if you advocate for doing nothing - then millions of Nairobi will continue living in slums - where 3million people live in slums - occupying about 12 percent of Nairobi land mass - and these are mostly horiffic slums nobody should be allowed to live in. Not even animals.
(https://scontent-mrs2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/240928935_142682944698820_5481960996807875646_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=zD-lQzybbdcAX_uFn-x&_nc_ht=scontent-mrs2-1.xx&oh=d7424246887b1736bbf307e90b8c5fb9&oe=61477B47)

Nairobi has a lot of apartments standing empty. Why not start there and move people living in Mathare to these emtpty apartments? Charity stands at home.
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Kadudu on September 15, 2021, 05:31:35 PM
Is the housing problem in Kenya due to shortage of land or due to people with few resources?
Govt has a lot of land in Kenya and also in Nairobi. It is the resources that a lacking and not the availability of land.
One thing I know for sure, Nairobi went to the dogs the minute like minded people like you from ocha came to Nairobi in their late teens and started having a say on the way the city is run.
Stop also believing you can build houses for all the resident of Nairobi with gov funds. Give the people means of earning decent money and they will find a way of living decently.

It was a mistake to leave housing entirely to private sector.
When you grew up in Ololo - you lived in cheap public sector housing.
We need the same...British were able to build those house..but we cannot????????
It can only be cheap because gov owns the land.
But if I buy an acre for 1m dollars..
Then housing is already too expensive for Kibera and Mathare slum dwellers.
If a housing developer start with free land, free basic infrastructure,zero rated building materials, then they can build colonial type mass cheap housing schemes for the poor.
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: RV Pundit on September 15, 2021, 05:47:42 PM
Kwani your parents were born in Nairobi?
They came from Vihiga, found decent cheap colonial housing.
Why cant somebody from Vihiga or Kakamega arrive from Ocha today, find cheap affordable mass housing?
It simple - we stopped building them housing.
The last major one was Umoja.
Then Moi tried in 90s with NHC - and the likes.
An average Kalenjin would land in Nairobi and find himself living in one of those Nyayo house, pay rent of 1,000 that was also mortage
Tenant purchase programme.


So yes 1) It's an income problem 2) It's location problem. All the slums are located near prime areas and rent is about 10 dollars.

We need land near these poor people places of work - I mean industrial area, Business districts and richer neigherhood.
How do we build cheap houses that rent out like Ololo - for 500-1000shs?

Simple - retraced our steps to 1990s - when we dropped the ball - and gov got out public housing.

Kamau arrived from Kiambu - bought plots - and started building ugly rental flats.
Onyango arrived from Kisumu - found himself in slum - and build an extensions.

Kadudu of now - will arrive from Kakamega - to land in a slum.

We need cheap mass housing funded by gov.

one of least cost solution...as identified already by gov...gov provide free land.

The problem the land they found is mostly in Kitengela and athi river..for example 15,000 acres disused  quarry in Portland cement....but will poor go and live that far????? They left free housing in Ocha to come and hustle in urban areas...

The public land in Nairobi identified - can only house 67,000 units. That can max hold about 300,000 people - 10 percent of the current slums and near slum dwellers.

So we end up in Nairobi National Park - we find 30,000 acres of land - some lonely lions - and problem solved - given chinese 15,000 acres to build upper and middle class estates - and 15,000 to build mass cheap housing.

And send the LIONS to OCHA.

We dont need lions in Nairobi - they should be in OCHA...to occupy space created by humans as they migrate to urban areas...our urbanization rate is 4 percent meaning problem will continue to compound.

Is the housing problem in Kenya due to shortage of land or due to people with few resources?
Govt has a lot of land in Kenya and also in Nairobi. It is the resources that a lacking and not the availability of land.
One thing I know for sure, Nairobi went to the dogs the minute like minded people like you from ocha came to Nairobi in their late teens and started having a say on the way the city is run.
Stop also believing you can build houses for all the resident of Nairobi with gov funds. Give the people means of earning decent money and they will find a way of living decently.
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Georgesoros on September 16, 2021, 01:06:07 AM
Mara Kericho tea, mara Nrb national park, Mara conservationists, Mara hii, there, where, everywhere.
Same crap like 2007.
I hope Ndii stats are not Trumpian??
If locals generate billions, where did it go? Into the dust?
All I know, Mugabe gave land to thousands - then Zim started importing food  after that.
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Georgesoros on September 16, 2021, 01:14:19 AM
Is the housing problem in Kenya due to shortage of land or due to people with few resources?
Govt has a lot of land in Kenya and also in Nairobi. It is the resources that a lacking and not the availability of land.
One thing I know for sure, Nairobi went to the dogs the minute like minded people like you from ocha came to Nairobi in their late teens and started having a say on the way the city is run.
Stop also believing you can build houses for all the resident of Nairobi with gov funds. Give the people means of earning decent money and they will find a way of living decently.

It was a mistake to leave housing entirely to private sector.
When you grew up in Ololo - you lived in cheap public sector housing.
We need the same...British were able to build those house..but we cannot????????
It can only be cheap because gov owns the land.
But if I buy an acre for 1m dollars..
Then housing is already too expensive for Kibera and Mathare slum dwellers.
If a housing developer start with free land, free basic infrastructure,zero rated building materials, then they can build colonial type mass cheap housing schemes for the poor.

Housing is expensive in Kenya is due to people hoarding land. I buy 50 acres and wait to flip. I add no value to it, but this land keeps rising in value due to FOMO . No costs incurred while holding these land and I flip at 100%. Tax every inch of land and youll see  inflation in land pricing disappear.
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Arcadian_Dreamer on September 16, 2021, 01:34:05 AM
Housing is expensive in Kenya is due to people hoarding land. I buy 50 acres and wait to flip. I add no value to it, but this land keeps rising in value due to FOMO . No costs incurred while holding these land and I flip at 100%. Tax every inch of land and youll see  inflation in land pricing disappear.


Absolutely. Idle land should be heavily taxed. The current tenant of state stands to lose massive if that happens. Land should be communal, who gave private individuals the right to fence off huge sections of this country. Land is not created by anyone, it should not be hoarded, shouldn't be a vehicle for speculation.
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: RV Pundit on September 16, 2021, 01:34:41 AM
I invite you to critically look at issues.
Only very old wazee and few rich barons can afford to hoard land. Very small percentages.
Majority of kenyans - will sell - as soon as their old wazee dies.
or as soon as they get titledeed.

This is a very poor country - so land hoarding doesnt exist.

Now why is some land expensive - for me - it's down infrastructure.

There is very little in quality land - out of nearly 250,000kms of road network - only 25,000kms are paved - that is 10 percent livable decent land.

Piped water and sewage is even worse.
At least electricity is getting better.

So you got few quality land - service land - that appreciates - as everyone rushes to buy land with piped water, electricity and paved roads.
Move deeper - and you will get land for even 100 dollars per acre.

The people speculating land - go to those areas - like in Kajaido - buy huge land from Maasai cheaply - and wait for roads, water and electricity to arrive. And then cut the land into plots. Get huge profit - and move deeper.

The other aspect is in the few cities we have like Nairobi or Mombasa - there is no proper mass transport - that would allow you to live 100kms or even 150kms from Nairobi - and be able to commute - through expressways/ proper roads or train.

So you find land in few hotspots selling for serious money - few hotspots are in nairobi.

To lower land prices -  equally develop the country - invest in basic infrastructure.

And people wont spend a fortunes to find land with paved road, piped water and electricity.

Move out of Nairobi and small corridor around old railway line...and you will be offered land for even 10 dollars an acre. I have gone to see land being sold for 120 dollars in border of Kericho and Kisumu. This where land speculators - buy - wait for tarmac or electricity - and then sell at a profit.

And now imagine how much cheaply you can buy land in 2/3 of Kenya that is essentially a wilderness - go deeper into coast - and you can buy as much land as you want - cheaply.

Problem is the effective demand versus supply.

Supply of quality land is lacking. - This is livable serviced land - land with paved road, piped water and electricity - at the minimum.

Check any land advert - the biggest selling point is not the land - it's the utilities - it's near paved road, there is water, there is SGR that will pass there in 10yrs, there is a proposed project xyz.

If it was in US or Europe - it would be about the land. NOT utilities. It almost given that every inch of land will have utilities - and even if offgrid - at least some decent utilities.

Housing is expensive in Kenya is due to people hoarding land. I buy 50 acres and wait to flip. I add no value to it, but this land keeps rising in value due to FOMO . No costs incurred while holding these land and I flip at 100%. Tax every inch of land and youll see  inflation in land pricing disappear.
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Arcadian_Dreamer on September 16, 2021, 01:46:32 AM
Mara Kericho tea, mara Nrb national park, Mara conservationists, Mara hii, there, where, everywhere.
Same crap like 2007.
I hope Ndii stats are not Trumpian??
If locals generate billions, where did it go? Into the dust?
All I know, Mugabe gave land to thousands - then Zim started importing food  after that.

Yeah I have a feeling we are putting our hearts ahead of our brains on this matter. This aliens really turned around that province. The locals are very happy with NRT's especially the women. Opportunities galore.

I don't know, sometimes I'm resentful like akina Ndii  but then I have doubts. You just know those pastoralists are going to graze every blade of grass to dust if they are given the whole province.

They have no clue. We need a solution.

Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: RV Pundit on September 16, 2021, 01:56:49 AM
Why did the Alien move enmasse from England to US, Australia, Africa, Newlands, New Englands, New Manchesters and many colonies.
Population explosion.
The pastoralist when British arrived were very few.
Kenya population at 1900 is estimated at 1million. Kenyans have been around for centuries..but population was mere 1m.
Bring in better medicine, nutrition and all that...and you have new dynamics.
My great grandparents were dying in their 30s and 40s...and theirs was healthy system of mortality...if you are sadist.
People lived short brutish live - if we go by Alien literature.
Nearly every family had 2-3 kids - not by choice - but due to very high mortality.
My grandmother told me it was almost a miracle to have 4 surviving kids - it took a lot of witchcraft and wading of witchraft to see such miracle.
In come the Mzungu - with his medicine for both human and cattle - and now from 1M - by the time he left - it was 8M.
From 1962 - it's now 50M.
Meanwhile England which was 50m is probaly 55m.
Kenya population in 50yrs - has increased 8 folds! And that with serious family planning. Uganda is even crazy!

Now that you understand the problem.

Let go to solutions.

The 50m poor kenyans do not have any sophistication to do anything apart from farm, herd and fish.

If they were Alien Bazungu - they would have gone to abroad, cut forests, colonize others, name it.

This will get worse before it get better.

It never going to be acceptable to have one man with 100,000 acres while 100,000 people have nothing.

The big land owners had better find some other asset classes to hold.

There is no India for Africans. there is no US to invade. Maybe someone find us a new earth.

In the meantime 50m poor kenyans need food, their cows need water and pasture, and that is minimum for them to eke a very basic life.

Yeah I have a feeling we are putting our hearts ahead of our brains on this matter. This aliens really turned around that province. The locals are very happy with NRT's especially the women. Opportunities galore.

I don't know, sometimes I'm resentful like akina Ndii  but then I have doubts. You just know those pastoralists are going to graze every blade of grass to dust if they are given the whole province.

They have no clue. We need a solution.


Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: RV Pundit on September 16, 2021, 02:08:38 AM
I also invite you to study how your Luo tribesmen have overfished Lake victoria - even the fingerlings - omenas are now depleted. Museveni is trying so much jailing kenyans - and trying to save lake victoria - from over-fishing.

As you enjoy eating millions of omenas - remember lake victoria is dying - and now fish is imported from china.

Museveni in Uganda has tried to put serious controls in licensing of fishing but it going to be a lost war....as millions of uganda are born every day.

After we are done eating the fingerlings - what will eat next?

. You just know those pastoralists are going to graze every blade of grass to dust if they are given the whole province.

Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Arcadian_Dreamer on September 16, 2021, 05:01:23 AM
I also invite you to study how your Luo tribesmen have overfished Lake victoria - even the fingerlings - omenas are now depleted. Museveni is trying so much jailing kenyans - and trying to save lake victoria - from over-fishing.

As you enjoy eating millions of omenas - remember lake victoria is dying - and now fish is imported from china.

Museveni in Uganda has tried to put serious controls in licensing of fishing but it going to be a lost war....as millions of uganda are born every day.

After we are done eating the fingerlings - what will eat next?

It ain't news we are seriously degrading our resource base on land and on water in this country.

Solution: Community wide meetings to first of all lay out the problems, then come up with holistic solution - not just one that satisfies our tumbo today but leaves us hungry tomorrow.

Example: Problem is overfishing, we set aside areas where fish can recover. North sea fish stocks have recovered as a result of agreement between countries bordering the sea.

Example: Raw human effluent flowing into waterways. Teach, sensitize community to use compost toilet instead.



Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: RV Pundit on September 16, 2021, 07:40:40 AM
Holistic is luxury we cannot afford. We need grow our fish. We need to grow animal feeds using GMOs and chemical fertilizers.
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Arcadian_Dreamer on September 16, 2021, 04:52:34 PM
Holistic is luxury we cannot afford. We need grow our fish. We need to grow animal feeds using GMOs and chemical fertilizers.

Actually GMO's are luxury we can't afford - after all they are proprietary technologies owned by large western chemical companies that we would be forced to pay for heftily, fertilizers vile vile, imported fossil fuels - again we can ill afford. Holistic - is free and harmless. Pick your choice.

RV Kirgit needs to educate you on the dangers of GMO's. It is criminal anyone even advocate for it.

Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: RV Pundit on September 16, 2021, 05:09:13 PM
Leave us with conspiracy theories. GMO and Monsantos.
GMO is open field...you cannot patent it forever...there are generics and all the work.

Lake victoria natural fish cannot sustain a population of 200M that we are approaching in East Africa. It simply cannot. So holistic approach of giving fish a break to breed is not working. Uganda is trying - but poor fishermen are pulling all stops to beat it.

We need SCIENTIFIC driven process to feed our large population. GMOS/Artificial fertilizers/Aquaculture. All these ARE PROVEN MODELS feeding 1.5B chinese - and 7B people worldwide

The natural way of things cannot feed and clothe 7-10B people.

Our biggest natural resource is OUR BRAINS - and as human we need to make it work. We are not animals in earth. WE ARE GODS. We are special. We cannot live organic natural life like other animals.

Actually GMO's are luxury we can't afford - after all they are proprietary technologies owned by large western chemical companies that we would be forced to pay for heftily, fertilizers vile vile, imported fossil fuels - again we can ill afford. Holistic - is free and harmless. Pick your choice.

RV Kirgit needs to educate you on the dangers of GMO's. It is criminal anyone even advocate for it.


Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Arcadian_Dreamer on September 16, 2021, 07:11:36 PM
Leave us with conspiracy theories. GMO and Monsantos.
GMO is open field...you cannot patent it forever...there are generics and all the work.

Farmers who buy seed protected by some types of patent must sign an agreement not to sell or save seed from these crops – so they are  obliged to buy fresh seeds every year. It is happened in India with Bt Cotton, leading to impoverished and indebted farmers, mass suicides. Large Agrochemicals still own the patents for 2/3rds of GMO crops.

Lake Victoria natural fish cannot sustain a population of 200M that we are approaching in East Africa. It simply cannot. So holistic approach of giving fish a break to breed is not working. Uganda is trying - but poor fishermen are pulling all stops to beat it.

Fish farming is not economical. Quality wise they are poor imitations of the real thing. Farmed fish is not efficient use of resources, it is akin to holding cattle in pens feeding them hay instead of letting them graze naturally which produces superior product. Fish farming is capital intensive - you need feed, drugs to treat the diseases caused by fish being in close proximity, land, etc It doesn't beat nature on volume either

as you are trying to insinuate.

We need SCIENTIFIC driven process to feed our large population. GMOS/Artificial fertilizers/Aquaculture. All these ARE PROVEN MODELS feeding 1.5B chinese - and 7B people worldwide

The natural way of things cannot feed and clothe 7-10B people.

Our biggest natural resource is OUR BRAINS - and as human we need to make it work. We are not animals in earth. WE ARE GODS. We are special. We cannot live organic natural life like other animals.

Oh my word! I was like you when I was a teen.

The religious belief in the scientific method, check

We are Gods who have dominion over nature, check

Technology is the solution for all our woes, check

You don't know it but you are a neo-environmentalist.

Quote
Kareiva’s ideas are a good place to start in understanding the neo-environmentalists. He is an outspoken former conservationist who now believes that most of what the greens think they know is wrong. Nature, he says, is more resilient than fragile; science proves it. “Humans degrade and destroy and crucify the natural environment,” he says, “and 80 percent of the time it recovers pretty well.” Wilderness does not exist; all of it has been influenced by humans at some time. Trying to protect large functioning ecosystems from human development is mostly futile; humans like development, and you can’t stop them from having it. Nature is tough and will adapt to this: “Today, coyotes roam downtown Chicago, and peregrine falcons astonish San Franciscans as they sweep down skyscraper canyons. . . . As we destroy habitats, we create new ones.” Now that “science” has shown us that nothing is “pristine” and nature “adapts,” there’s no reason to worry about many traditional green goals such as, for example, protecting rainforest habitats. “Is halting deforestation in the Amazon . . . feasible?” he asks. “Is it even necessary?” Somehow, you know what the answer is going to be before he gives it to you.

Quote
Beyond the field of conservation, the neo-environmentalists are distinguished by their attitude toward new technologies, which they almost uniformly see as positive. Civilization, nature, and people can only be “saved” by enthusiastically embracing biotechnology, synthetic biology, nuclear power, geoengineering, and anything else with the prefix “new” that annoys Greenpeace. The traditional green focus on “limits” is dismissed as naïve. We are now, in Brand’s words, “as gods,” and we have to step up and accept our responsibility to manage the planet rationally through the use of new technology guided by enlightened science.

Quote
Neo-environmentalists also tend to exhibit an excitable enthusiasm for markets. They like to put a price on things like trees, lakes, mist, crocodiles, rainforests, and watersheds, all of which can deliver “ecosystem services,” which can be bought and sold, measured and totted up. Tied in with this is an almost religious attitude toward the scientific method. Everything that matters can be measured by science and priced by markets, and any claims without numbers attached can be easily dismissed. This is presented as “pragmatism” but is actually something rather different: an attempt to exclude from the green debate any interventions based on morality, emotion, intuition, spiritual connection, or simple human feeling.

Quote
Some of this might be shocking to some old-guard greens—which is the point—but it is hardly a new message. In fact, it is a very old one; it is simply a variant on the old Wellsian techno-optimism that has been promising us cornucopia for over a century. It’s an old-fashioned Big Science, Big Tech, and Big Money narrative filtered through the lens of the internet and garlanded with holier-than-thou talk about saving the poor and feeding the world.

https://orionmagazine.org/article/dark-ecology/

^^ This article is one of my favorites of all time.
 
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: RV Pundit on September 16, 2021, 07:42:07 PM
You believe in two things that do not go hand in hand.

Sustainable FAST GROWING Development

It not possible.

You develop - like US or Europe - then you afford sustainable high quality natural organic lifestyle...maisha kwa kipole with your pet :)- you start hugging trees - visiting nature parks - and your life highlighte is to see animals in their natural fauna and flora - and all the nice little things...and you start seeing people eking their life by cutting trees or torturing animals as cruel primitives.

When you're developing - you need to do a lot of nasty things and cause a lot of damage to yourself, to the enviroment and name it. Without it you remain poor or even die. The choice is not the best fish - it's ANY FISH

But once you develop - then everything is great - your population stabilize and even reduce - many things we only do it once - like railways we only build them once in every 200yrs - same with most houses - and name it.

Now you can afford all the nice things you see ABROAD. And their economy doesnt grow  - it just usual 1 or 2 percent.

Africa and developing world simply cannot afford SUSTAINABLE FAST GROWTH. IT NOT POSSIBLE.

All the ideas you've been indoctrinated in the west is SIMPLY WESTERN DEVELOPED COUNTRIES ATTEMPT TO THROW DOWN THE LADDER after reaching the apex.


You're telling us to just climb to the top using our bare limbs when you took a ladder to the top and threw it away.

Leave us with conspiracy theories. GMO and Monsantos.
GMO is open field...you cannot patent it forever...there are generics and all the work.

Farmers who buy seed protected by some types of patent must sign an agreement not to sell or save seed from these crops – so they are  obliged to buy fresh seeds every year. It is happened in India with Bt Cotton, leading to impoverished and indebted farmers, mass suicides. Large Agrochemicals still own the patents for 2/3rds of GMO crops.

Lake Victoria natural fish cannot sustain a population of 200M that we are approaching in East Africa. It simply cannot. So holistic approach of giving fish a break to breed is not working. Uganda is trying - but poor fishermen are pulling all stops to beat it.

Fish farming is not economical. Quality wise they are poor imitations of the real thing. Farmed fish is not efficient use of resources, it is akin to holding cattle in pens feeding them hay instead of letting them graze naturally which produces superior product. Fish farming is capital intensive - you need feed, drugs to treat the diseases caused by fish being in close proximity, land, etc It doesn't beat nature on volume either

as you are trying to insinuate.

We need SCIENTIFIC driven process to feed our large population. GMOS/Artificial fertilizers/Aquaculture. All these ARE PROVEN MODELS feeding 1.5B chinese - and 7B people worldwide

The natural way of things cannot feed and clothe 7-10B people.

Our biggest natural resource is OUR BRAINS - and as human we need to make it work. We are not animals in earth. WE ARE GODS. We are special. We cannot live organic natural life like other animals.

Oh my word! I was like you when I was a teen.

The religious belief in the scientific method, check

We are Gods who have dominion over nature, check

Technology is the solution for all our woes, check

You don't know it but you are a neo-environmentalist.

Quote
Kareiva’s ideas are a good place to start in understanding the neo-environmentalists. He is an outspoken former conservationist who now believes that most of what the greens think they know is wrong. Nature, he says, is more resilient than fragile; science proves it. “Humans degrade and destroy and crucify the natural environment,” he says, “and 80 percent of the time it recovers pretty well.” Wilderness does not exist; all of it has been influenced by humans at some time. Trying to protect large functioning ecosystems from human development is mostly futile; humans like development, and you can’t stop them from having it. Nature is tough and will adapt to this: “Today, coyotes roam downtown Chicago, and peregrine falcons astonish San Franciscans as they sweep down skyscraper canyons. . . . As we destroy habitats, we create new ones.” Now that “science” has shown us that nothing is “pristine” and nature “adapts,” there’s no reason to worry about many traditional green goals such as, for example, protecting rainforest habitats. “Is halting deforestation in the Amazon . . . feasible?” he asks. “Is it even necessary?” Somehow, you know what the answer is going to be before he gives it to you.

Quote
Beyond the field of conservation, the neo-environmentalists are distinguished by their attitude toward new technologies, which they almost uniformly see as positive. Civilization, nature, and people can only be “saved” by enthusiastically embracing biotechnology, synthetic biology, nuclear power, geoengineering, and anything else with the prefix “new” that annoys Greenpeace. The traditional green focus on “limits” is dismissed as naïve. We are now, in Brand’s words, “as gods,” and we have to step up and accept our responsibility to manage the planet rationally through the use of new technology guided by enlightened science.

Quote
Neo-environmentalists also tend to exhibit an excitable enthusiasm for markets. They like to put a price on things like trees, lakes, mist, crocodiles, rainforests, and watersheds, all of which can deliver “ecosystem services,” which can be bought and sold, measured and totted up. Tied in with this is an almost religious attitude toward the scientific method. Everything that matters can be measured by science and priced by markets, and any claims without numbers attached can be easily dismissed. This is presented as “pragmatism” but is actually something rather different: an attempt to exclude from the green debate any interventions based on morality, emotion, intuition, spiritual connection, or simple human feeling.

Quote
Some of this might be shocking to some old-guard greens—which is the point—but it is hardly a new message. In fact, it is a very old one; it is simply a variant on the old Wellsian techno-optimism that has been promising us cornucopia for over a century. It’s an old-fashioned Big Science, Big Tech, and Big Money narrative filtered through the lens of the internet and garlanded with holier-than-thou talk about saving the poor and feeding the world.

https://orionmagazine.org/article/dark-ecology/

^^ This article is one of my favorites of all time.
 
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: RV Pundit on September 16, 2021, 08:22:35 PM
You cannot have both - you have to choose zero economic growth - and sustainability. The moment you want to accelerate development or economic growth - then you must accelerate the extraction of natural or earth resources - at the rate - it cannot sustainably replenish itself.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/02/is-sustainable-growth-possible/
‘Sustainable Economic Growth’ is an Oxymoron

Senior Economist at the World Bank, Herman E. Daly and Dr. Kenneth N. Townsend have proven that we can’t grow our way out of poverty and environmental degradation. Sustainable economic growth is impossible, since the economy is an open subsystem of the Earth’s ecosystem, which is finite, non-growing, and materially closed. As the economic subsystem grows, it engulfs more and more of the ecosystem in which it exists and is bound to reach a limit when it ‘incorporates’ (their word) 100 percent of the ecosystem, if not before. Thus, the economy’s infinite growth is by Nature not sustainable.
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Arcadian_Dreamer on September 16, 2021, 08:45:58 PM
You believe in two things that do not go hand in hand.

Sustainable FAST GROWING Development

It not possible.

You develop - like US or Europe - then you afford sustainable high quality natural organic lifestyle...maisha kwa kipole with your pet :)- you start hugging trees - visiting nature parks - and your life highlighte is to see animals in their natural fauna and flora - and all the nice little things...and you start seeing people eking their life by cutting trees or torturing animals as cruel primitives.

When you're developing - you need to do a lot of nasty things and cause a lot of damage to yourself, to the enviroment and name it. Without it you remain poor or even die. The choice is not the best fish - it's ANY FISH

But once you develop - then everything is great - your population stabilize and even reduce - many things we only do it once - like railways we only build them once in every 200yrs - same with most houses - and name it.

Now you can afford all the nice things you see ABROAD. And their economy doesnt grow  - it just usual 1 or 2 percent.

Africa and developing world simply cannot afford SUSTAINABLE FAST GROWTH. IT NOT POSSIBLE.

All the ideas you've been indoctrinated in the west is SIMPLY WESTERN DEVELOPED COUNTRIES ATTEMPT TO THROW DOWN THE LADDER after reaching the apex.


You're telling us to just climb to the top using our bare limbs when you took a ladder to the top and threw it away.

What is development? We need to define that first.

Go first
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: RV Pundit on September 16, 2021, 09:03:29 PM
Development - is to grow! it's to add something;
And as we all you know - our resources are finite; when you add something; you subtract something elsewhere.
Sustainable development - is grow without hurting mother nature  - by extracting resources at the rate that it will replenish or renew itself.
Therefore I believe and research has shown.
Sustainable development is an oxymoron - it's only possible with zero growth (meaning no development) - it only possible as maintenance mode.
So basically you need to grow first (and fast).
Then aim for sustainability - to maintain development.
Now Africa or Kenya we have problem where we need to grow  - very fast!
Europe have already grown to a DEVELOPED state - and are basically able to sustainably develop or maintain - no pressure - they are just about maintaining their current lifestyle.
Heck they can even afford to reduce some of their luxuries - like big fuel guzzler's for bicycles
But in Africa - we are dealing with serious under development issues  - from basic needs.

So sustainable development in Africa or Kenya is only possible if western developed world are willing to pay us - the opportunity cost of foregoing using our resources - for example in carbon credit.

The opportunity cost of NNP is 30B dollars - that is average per acre land in Nairobi National Park - 1 million dollars times 30,000 acres.

Are western developed world ready to pay us 30B dollar - by visiting these animals - and paying say 1000 dollars?

And then we can use that money to build high speed rail so hustlers in Isinya - can arrive for their mjengo or industrial area job?

if they cannot - then it's CONservancy.

If they cannot - they should SHUT UP - and let us use NNP more ECONOMICALLY. Resources are finite and very precious things to be wasted.

What is development? We need to define that first.

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Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Georgesoros on September 16, 2021, 09:47:48 PM
in 1970 there were a few thousands in rural areas. Now its millions. With all the poop they produce that goes into ground water, mixed with gmos, fertilizers, etc
All this does not need attention?
People have been hoarding land, raising inflation astronomically, which a regular guy cant afford to feed family. And this is not a problem? food is land dependent. business is land dependent. shelter is land dependent. If this basic input is astronomical, how can you expect someone to start a business to grow food, own a restaurant, etc.
Poverty breeds more poverty, so there neeeds to be better policies than we currently have. Kibaki was a policy driven guy, and that is how a few pple got into the middle class.
Title: Re: Laikipia and CONservationists
Post by: Kadudu on September 17, 2021, 10:58:24 AM
A very fundamental question.

What is development? We need to define that first.

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