Infrastructure nonsense

[KenyanPlato]

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https://nation.africa/kenya/blogs-opinion/opinion/why-you-re-struggling-to-make-ends-meet-933798?view=htmlamp&__twitter_impression=true

[Arcadian_Dreamer]

Date of publication: Friday January 03 2014

 

Boss punguza drinks.

[RV Pundit]

Now look at how stupid that man sounds for attacking Thika road.

https://nation.africa/kenya/blogs-opinion/opinion/why-you-re-struggling-to-make-ends-meet-933798?view=htmlamp&__twitter_impression=true

[KenyanPlato]

What economic value has thika added? Same problems thika road was trying to escape just got moved around. The point is that infrastructure won't end chronic poverty in kenya but agricultural id where the value is

As matter of fact trafficking congestion can't be solved by highway alone. They just get switched around

[RV Pundit]

Really. Maybe you need pictures.

What economic value has thika added? Same problems thika road was trying to escape just got moved around. The point is that infrastructure won't end chronic poverty in kenya but agricultural id where the value is

As matter of fact trafficking congestion can't be solved by highway alone. They just get switched around

[gout]

Comprehension challenge. Ndii was/is not arguing against Thika, he just arguing for need for similar mega investment in irrigation; aquaculture; drugs supplies, local sewers, water piping and such projects which the elite do not like because they are hectic to get kickbacks and are not good optics for Eurocentric technocrats.

[RV Pundit]

But utaskia sijui post-harvest loses are 30%. To be fair Jubilee imported lots of fertilizers and rain helped. You can say our agriculture has had good 5 yrs.

Thika road is a solid investment - and SGR naysayers came from there. They keep jumping from one project to another.

Personally I rather we build something that we can see - and it can stay for many years.  Long term investment don't bring quick returns like Ndii wants - but they gov is not in for quick returns - like private sector.

Ndii is guilty of predicting doom - and Equity were fortnunate to fire him.

Comprehension challenge. Ndii was/is not arguing against Thika, he just arguing for need for similar mega investment in irrigation; aquaculture; drugs supplies, local sewers, water piping and such projects which the elite do not like because they are hectic to get kickbacks and are not good optics for Eurocentric technocrats.

[gout]

Post harvest losses requires simple driers and storage Gunias for storage but these are not good optics for megastructure proponents.

Jubilee tenderpreneurs have messed fertilizer importation which is easily managed by KTDa which sickly they are running after its head. Jubilee had the KENREN II in Baraka fertilizer plant which has faded last time I heard of it were farmers complaining the fertilizer is more expensive than imported.

But utaskia sijui post-harvest loses are 30%. To be fair Jubilee imported lots of fertilizers and rain helped. You can say our agriculture has had good 5 yrs.

Thika road is a solid investment - and SGR naysayers came from there. They keep jumping from one project to another.

Personally I rather we build something that we can see - and it can stay for many years.  Long term investment don't bring quick returns like Ndii wants - but they gov is not in for quick returns - like private sector.

Ndii is guilty of predicting doom - and Equity were fortnunate to fire him.

Comprehension challenge. Ndii was/is not arguing against Thika, he just arguing for need for similar mega investment in irrigation; aquaculture; drugs supplies, local sewers, water piping and such projects which the elite do not like because they are hectic to get kickbacks and are not good optics for Eurocentric technocrats.

[KenyanPlato]

Comprehension challenge. Ndii was/is not arguing against Thika, he just arguing for need for similar mega investment in irrigation; aquaculture; drugs supplies, local sewers, water piping and such projects which the elite do not like because they are hectic to get kickbacks and are not good optics for Eurocentric technocrats.

No he is arguing you need to increase productivity and generate more income to be able to finance these infrastructure projects. He is asking we prioritize agriculture

[KenyanPlato]

But utaskia sijui post-harvest loses are 30%. To be fair Jubilee imported lots of fertilizers and rain helped. You can say our agriculture has had good 5 yrs.

Thika road is a solid investment - and SGR naysayers came from there. They keep jumping from one project to another.

Personally I rather we build something that we can see - and it can stay for many years.  Long term investment don't bring quick returns like Ndii wants - but they gov is not in for quick returns - like private sector.

Ndii is guilty of predicting doom - and Equity were fortnunate to fire him.

Comprehension challenge. Ndii was/is not arguing against Thika, he just arguing for need for similar mega investment in irrigation; aquaculture; drugs supplies, local sewers, water piping and such projects which the elite do not like because they are hectic to get kickbacks and are not good optics for Eurocentric technocrats.

Are investments by gok in cash crops from 1970s not visible?

[Arcadian_Dreamer]

What have been the cons of Thika highway?

 - Induced demand: the phenomenon whereby if you build highway lanes, more drivers will come, we clearly see that with Thika Highway. It is
   biggest selling point has been debunked - that of reducing traffic.

 - Land Speculation and urban sprawl in in and around it - this is a real crime because some of the best agricultural land is being paved over and
   turned into ugly concrete slum-scrapers in a shortsighted push for profits.

 - Massive importation of cars that further depletes foreign exchange reserves thus pushing dollar down and

 - Crime has increased in that area massively, not to mention accidents and the pollution of automobiles.

[RV Pundit]

You're messed up liberal.

What have been the cons of Thika highway?

 - Induced demand: the phenomenon whereby if you build highway lanes, more drivers will come, we clearly see that with Thika Highway. It is
   biggest selling point has been debunked - that of reducing traffic.

 - Land Speculation and urban sprawl in in and around it - this is a real crime because some of the best agricultural land is being paved over and
   turned into ugly concrete slum-scrapers in a shortsighted push for profits.

 - Massive importation of cars that further depletes foreign exchange reserves thus pushing dollar down and

 - Crime has increased in that area massively, not to mention accidents and the pollution of automobiles.

[RV Pundit]

 You  guys need basic economics - economies of scale/consolidation/location - Nairobi has it - and it's difficult to create it. Nairobi from it's tiny space generate maybe 50% of kenya GDP. All that agriclutural land in kenya cannot beat that. We need MASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSive investment in Nairobi. It's the cow that we need to take care and milk.

Otherwise try creating another Nairobi where all those economies of scale don;t exist - and see far how you go.

Worlwide - you'll find such cities - Joburg account for 1/3 of south africa - lagos - nairobi - kampala- new york - name them.

We need massive investment in Nairobi to solve traffic jam, water problem and whatever will atrract more companies, investment and etc.

[Arcadian_Dreamer]

You're messed up liberal.

I'm far from liberal. I would describe myself as heterdox. My views don't fall into one category.

You are for big government, big taxes though, why are using liberal as a pejorative term?

[KenyanPlato]

Boss you need basic economics - economies of scale/consolidation/location - Nairobi has it - and it's difficult to create it. Nairobi from it's tiny space generate maybe 50% of kenya GDP. All that agriclutural land in kenya cannot beat that. We need MASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSive investment in Nairobi. It's the cow that we need to take care and milk.

Otherwise try creating another Nairobi where all those economies of scale don;t exist - and see far how you go.

Worlwide - you'll find such cities - Joburg account for 1/3 of south africa - lagos - nairobi - kampala- new york - name them.

We need massive investment in Nairobi to solve traffic jam, water problem and whatever will atrract more companies, investment and etc.

Post harvest losses requires simple driers and storage Gunias for storage but these are not good optics for megastructure proponents.

Jubilee tenderpreneurs have messed fertilizer importation which is easily managed by KTDa which sickly they are running after its head. Jubilee had the KENREN II in Baraka fertilizer plant which has faded last time I heard of it were farmers complaining the fertilizer is more expensive than imported.

Nairobi doesn't produce 50% 0f gdp..May 25%

[RV Pundit]

Agricluture is just 25% - maybe add agro-processing - and otherwise Nairobi Metro including Kiambu  maybe generate 50%. Nairobi is kila kitu. Mombasa is 2nd. And the rest of counties generate anything 1-2%.

If we were to think in private sector (evil thoughts like Ndii) and invest in profitable sectors - Nairobi would be where to throw the entire budget.

And it would pay. Nairobi has economies of location/scale/consolidation - working for it. Gov need to invest in it by building better infrastructure - roads, rails, pipe water, sewage and security.

Nairobi doesn't produce 50% 0f gdp..May 25%

[Arcadian_Dreamer]

Agricluture is just 25% - maybe add agro-processing - and otherwise Nairobi Metro including Kiambu  maybe generate 50%. Nairobi is kila kitu. Mombasa is 2nd. And the rest of counties generate anything 1-2%.

If we were to think in private sector (evil thoughts like Ndii) and invest in profitable sectors - Nairobi would be where to throw the entire budget.

And it would pay. Nairobi has economies of location/scale/consolidation - working for it. Gov need to invest in it by building better infrastructure - roads, rails, pipe water, sewage and security.

You are so misguided it is not funny. Eti throw all the money at Nairobi. Does America have one center of industry or capital or banking? No, it is dispersed, so you have a more balanced growth and even spread of prosperity. You can certainly invest all your baskets in one bag but it will bite you in back - traffic gridlock, overpopulation, urban sprawl, pollution, etc. It is better to spread the wealth around the country, a rising tide lifts all boats. Counties have been a tremendous boon in that regard.

[RV Pundit]

We are actually on the same page but if it's was a private company - they will not rush to go to Turkana. Do you know nearly 2/3 of kenya have patch cellular network - and gov has to step in to finance them - coz it doesn't make business sense for safaricom.

Public sector therefore cannot be looked from narrow prisms of profit.

Otherwise I repeat Nairobi would be where we throw most of our money. We would get more returns - than building a road in Baringo where car ownership is less than donkey ownership - but we know Baringo need roads for police to deal with say cattle rustlers -

In short - when it come to public sector - we cannot think like private sector - we have to think like NGO or UN throwing billion of dollars annually in Turkana with nothing to show. Or Bill gates massively throwing his money away to worthy social causes.

So anybody who come with long theories about maximum returns in public sector projects is crazy. Roads, Railways and name them are not suppose to bring any returns.

You are so misguided it is not funny. Eti throw all the money at Nairobi. Does America have one center of industry or capital or banking? No, it is dispersed, so you have a more balanced growth and even spread of prosperity. You can certainly invest all your baskets in one bag but it will bite you in back - traffic gridlock, overpopulation, urban sprawl, pollution, etc. It is better to spread the wealth around the country, a rising tide lifts all boats. Counties have been a tremendous boon in that regard.

[Arcadian_Dreamer]

We are actually on the same page but if it's was a private company - they will not rush to go to Turkana. Do you know nearly 2/3 of kenya have patch cellular network - and gov has to step in to finance them - coz it doesn't make business sense for safaricom.

Public sector therefore cannot be looked from narrow prisms of profit.

Otherwise I repeat Nairobi would be where we throw most of our money. We would get more returns - than building a road in Baringo where car ownership is less than donkey ownership - but we know Baringo need roads for police to deal with say cattle rustlers -

In short - when it come to public sector - we cannot think like private sector - we have to think like NGO or UN throwing billion of dollars annually in Turkana with nothing to show. Or Bill gates massively throwing his money away to worthy social causes.

So anybody who come with long theories about maximum returns in public sector projects is crazy. Roads, Railways and name them are not suppose to bring any returns.

What made those hinterlands undesirable for private sector was sessional paper 10 which stressed investment in high potential areas - i.e Central province and Nairobi. It led to No infrastructure, migration of skilled workforce to favored areas, lack government services and facilities - you had to come to Nairobi for every little document meant those areas stayed back waters. Mandera county only had its first ever tarmacked road I believe in 2014 thanks to devolution. Nairobi in a few years will be deserted as counties' build up and they repatriate more money from the center.

It doesn't make sense to throw money at Nairobi because it is saturated, why not build 10 more Nairobi's around the country. Imagine the economic growth if we have booming regions all around the country instead of over investing in the center. It can be done, you are stuck in Nyayo era.

"...Public sector therefore cannot be looked from narrow prisms of profit."

That is you favorite strawman. Public projects have to be financially viable in the long run otherwise they can bankrupt the whole country. Government financing is not limited to the construction face remember, government can not indefinitely subsidize a loss making operation after it is built. You haven't grasped there hard limits to public borrowing. There are fiscal penalties for profligacy. America has a huge infrastructure deficit, old infrastructure is crumbling but they in no rush because it is expensive, lots of handwringing. Big government Keynesians advocate for stimuluses and bonds but cooler heads call for prudence.

I would argue Baringo is the better choice to invest money in than Nairobi. The returns would be greater, more bang for the buck. We are an agrarian nation, our real wealth lies in the rural areas, Nairobi doesn't produce true wealth.