kenyaPlato - Koitalel was no joke

[RV Pundit]

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Sorry it exclusive in Nandi. But this man truly knows history.

[RV Pundit]

Jesse Maiz was Eldoret South Mp - and he understand Nandi/Kalenjin history.

He start the history of Nandi pre Laibon (arrival) and post.

I think for me the most surprising is how Mwafrika was not a fool - the Laibon were strategist per excellence.

They had arrived in Nandi from Maasai - and because Nandis were not used to such kind hereditary leadership - they were treated with great suspicion.

He says because this - the consequence of a wrong call was death - the Laibon had to get it absolutely right. That meant studying the victim or enemy for months -  they would basically study everything - meticulously planning raids. The nandi scouting (intelligence) was per excellence.

The Laibon became the greatest strategist in kenya - by the time Mzungu arrived in 1850 - the Nandis were basically undefeatable in kenya.When Nandis decided to attack the British - Peter West - the Laibon Koitalel had studied them for months - and he advised the nandi to attack the camp around midnight - when they had just fallen on sleep. They were to crawl for long to avoid the any detection and at once rain spears. The Briton and his camp woke up to more than 50 spears raining on them. They never managed to fire one bullet.

[RV Pundit]

The average Laibons spend their time either researching war or raid or disease. They spend all their time strategizing - sending scouts - and name it - but Koitatel Samoei became noted for his meticulously planning and strategy. Those cattle raids would be so meticulously planned - rarely anything went wrong - they knew the minutest details of the enemy.

By the time Mzungu came - he wasn't prepared for an enemy as intelligent as Samoei - and they had to fight 15yrs - and only ending it in cold blood murder when british had lied they were coming to sign a peace pact to leave Nandi independent.

Anyway it long interview - one consequence of Nandi verocity - is unlike rest of kalenjin who have had generation hand over - the Nandis were banned from doing that - the Luos and Luhyas would be overruned immediately a new warrior ageset was handed -over.


Bla bla bla.

[Arcadian_Dreamer]

Koitalel was a great warrior no doubt, but why are fixated on the past? I hate this we wuz kingz and shit narrative!

Those elders were patriots who did their duty, and passed on gracefully, but our generation, we are regressing, poverty is universal, no innovation, just siasa and political sycophancy and waiting for a chance to loot public money.

 There is a deep malaise. Our small mindedness will be our downfall. We need a renewal as a people.

[RV Pundit]

Samoei was not a warrior. Their clan do not go to war.They are tactician and strategist who advised the warriors

[KenyanPlato]

Nandi resistance needs to be documented properly. Maasais laibons were no joke. In Nyeri they gave kikuyu immigrants there such trouble that kikuyus started raising boys to warrior. Kikuyus had no warriors but Maa attacks made ey them start raising a class of warriors. These boys would be born raised on milk, honey and meat. They would be serrated from general population. In kiambuu kikuyus just cut and run when faced by maasai. Even today in Ndeiya if maasai decide to run over kikuyu settlements it take police and paramilitary protection to stop them. I would love if Nandi scholars could put a book together on this period. The problem in kenya is that mainly only kikuyu scholars dedicated time in the 70s to document mau mau war

[Arcadian_Dreamer]

Nandi resistance needs to be documented properly. Maasais laibons were no joke. In Nyeri they gave kikuyu immigrants there such trouble that kikuyus started raising boys to warrior. Kikuyus had no warriors but Maa attacks made ey them start raising a class of warriors. These boys would be born raised on milk, honey and meat. They would be serrated from general population. In kiambuu kikuyus just cut and run when faced by maasai. Even today in Ndeiya if maasai decide to run over kikuyu settlements it take police and paramilitary protection to stop them. I would love if Nandi scholars could put a book together on this period. The problem in kenya is that mainly only kikuyu scholars dedicated time in the 70s to document mau mau war

Karma is a bitch, the people they used to terrorize are taking over their lands.

[Njuri Ncheke]

Nandi resistance needs to be documented properly. Maasais laibons were no joke. In Nyeri they gave kikuyu immigrants there such trouble that kikuyus started raising boys to warrior. Kikuyus had no warriors but Maa attacks made ey them start raising a class of warriors. These boys would be born raised on milk, honey and meat. They would be serrated from general population. In kiambuu kikuyus just cut and run when faced by maasai. Even today in Ndeiya if maasai decide to run over kikuyu settlements it take police and paramilitary protection to stop them. I would love if Nandi scholars could put a book together on this period. The problem in kenya is that mainly only kikuyu scholars dedicated time in the 70s to document mau mau war

Karma is a bitch, the people they used to terrorize are taking over their lands.

Kalenjin have failed miserably they have blown up 2 main legacy. Koitalel and Moi. Its sad Kalenjin are landless to be honest it pains me a great community like this is going to waste most Kalenjin now are hopeless and perversion has entered the community, . At least athletics is their main hope. We will give them another opportunity through mzito Ruto 2022 lets see if they can redeem themselves and Not by plundering the country.

[gout]

What mzungu and mwafrika revisionist call 'savage' 'guerrilla' in mwafrika land is what they term as meticulous and strategic planning and execution.

Reading the Mau Mau memoirs; you find genius strategists- food/fund raising in the dark; makeshift spears, arrows & gun factories against bombers and all brutal government and traitor machinery.

[RV Pundit]

Precisely -to be able to hold on the mighty Brits - for such a time - was no joke.

What mzungu and mwafrika revisionist call 'savage' 'guerrilla' in mwafrika land is what they term as meticulous and strategic planning and execution.

Reading the Mau Mau memoirs; you find genius strategists- food/fund raising in the dark; makeshift spears, arrows & gun factories against bombers and all brutal government and traitor machinery.

[KenyanPlato]

Yes reading mau mau memiors you see a lot of strategic planning and running on the go. The generals and the community was very good in planning. Guerrilla  warfare took root then. I think a buddy in the military told me that these tactics were being taught. This is the same thing that humbled Americans on Vietnam

[RV Pundit]

Njuri, we would be like fellow pastoralist, or kaput like Maasai, but generally we have done well, even in the agricluture that your people have practised for centuries. You may be suprised that in Africa we have only 50M farmers.

Kalenjin have failed miserably they have blown up 2 main legacy. Koitalel and Moi. Its sad Kalenjin are landless to be honest it pains me a great community like this is going to waste most Kalenjin now are hopeless and perversion has entered the community, . At least athletics is their main hope. We will give them another opportunity through mzito Ruto 2022 lets see if they can redeem themselves and Not by plundering the country.

[RV Pundit]

People mistake Koitalel for warrior. Koitalel was not a warrior. He was intellect of those days. He was short man about 5 feet and half. Before the arrival of British - the Laibons  - acted as war/raiding strategistics, medicinemen, foresee, even witches and religious leaders. They never went to war or raids but they organized and plotted for many. After a succesfully raid - they would have a first pick of the spoil of war - and they became very rich. But if they made a wrong call too many times - the warriors or their relatives if they had been killed - would spear them to death. Their family would be told to place a leaf on them (to say Bye Bye) - and they would be executed. So most Laibons did meticously planning before authorizing any raid.They would refuse to give the go-ahead until they were pretty sure the success of those raids was pretty high. The recoincissance and intelligence for some raids would last months -  until everything had been hushed out - to exact time when the first attack would be launched.

Before their arrival - Kalenjin had raided in small bands - with raiding party doing everything. Now the Maasai imports (Laibon remnant of Maasai civil war of Uasin Ngishu-Sigilia Maasai) had brought the Maasai culture - of large raids  meticously planned.

Some were average - a few were extradionary in their intelligence, tact and authority - and one such was Koitalel Samoei.

By the time the British came - Koitatel was rich man commanding authority over Nandis - he had 3 wives, owned a large herd of cattle and had about 2,000 acres of land  - his brother Koilegen - was commandeering Kipsigis. Before then nobody had managed to gain authority over the entire Nandi tribe..the Kipsigis treated his brother and their laibon as unwelcomed witches.

But despite koitalel wealth and fame, he wasn't the proud kind of guy - he was reclusive - lived almost like an hermit - spending most of his time planning and strategizing.

The British were least prepared for a savage like him. Koitael was no mean feat - he had swahili slaves  (POW) who acted as his interpreters - and basically run a gov - with "ministers".

Whatever the British threw for 15yrs - including some largest military expedition ever seen in the region - Koitatel was more prepared - he knew when to run - he knew when to fight - the Nandis believed in him - for he had never been wrong.

Just when Koitatel thought he had prevailed - the British had agreed to have Nandi independent - he fell to cold blood murder on a peace conference. The British had shot at him and massacred 100 laibons. The Laibons having studied the British had probably thought they had honour.

[RV Pundit]

Cont...most people think PEV was planned because it appeared meticolous...some of the elements of the yore are retained. Most of what we learned at MTC is oathed to secrecy but I can tell you - there is a lot of raiding other MTCs - it takes a lot of planning and execution to pull it. During PEV - kalenjin warriors at day time - sleep - as the laibons strategize - they will want to know everything - who has guns - the police - and all that - and at midnight - is when most attacks are preffered - for element of suprise is the advantage the invader needs - every second count. If there the enemy has watchers or scouts - the attack are launched at 3am when they would have fallen a sleep - if they are not - at 11-12am. In the cattle raids - tribes targetted would keep their cattle in deep gorges fenced with intricate details - and yet the warriors had to bring home the cows. The Luos and Luhyas lived in villages that were like towns  = huge villages - with cattle in the middle - some dug the a dungeon - and hid the ladder -  some attacks are decoy -  the fastet of warrior would poke the enemy - and run as fast as they can - with enemy following.

[Arcadian_Dreamer]

Nandi resistance needs to be documented properly. Maasais laibons were no joke. In Nyeri they gave kikuyu immigrants there such trouble that kikuyus started raising boys to warrior. Kikuyus had no warriors but Maa attacks made ey them start raising a class of warriors. These boys would be born raised on milk, honey and meat. They would be serrated from general population. In kiambuu kikuyus just cut and run when faced by maasai. Even today in Ndeiya if maasai decide to run over kikuyu settlements it take police and paramilitary protection to stop them. I would love if Nandi scholars could put a book together on this period. The problem in kenya is that mainly only kikuyu scholars dedicated time in the 70s to document mau mau war

Karma is a bitch, the people they used to terrorize are taking over their lands.

Kalenjin have failed miserably they have blown up 2 main legacy. Koitalel and Moi. Its sad Kalenjin are landless to be honest it pains me a great community like this is going to waste most Kalenjin now are hopeless and perversion has entered the community, . At least athletics is their main hope. We will give them another opportunity through mzito Ruto 2022 lets see if they can redeem themselves and Not by plundering the country.

Kales still have the largest arable land in Kenya, I wouldn't call them landless. They lost a few bits of land to settlers but nothing catastrophic. The whole of RV is theirs, a fertile, well watered and verdant land full of potential. Total fertility rate ( TFR) has to be brought down for the Kalenjin nation to realize its full potential. They are a generation behind Kikuyus and other progressive tribes in mindset, education and exposure. Many are still stuck in the past, read Pundit's threads: he espouses very old fashioned, statist, central planning, 20th century esque emphasis on heavy industry and infrastructure buidling on credit. But the smart current consensus is investments in small holders to increase their productivity is
 what gets you the most bang for your shilling in pursuit of development. Ruto is a non starter.

[Njuri Ncheke]

Nandi resistance needs to be documented properly. Maasais laibons were no joke. In Nyeri they gave kikuyu immigrants there such trouble that kikuyus started raising boys to warrior. Kikuyus had no warriors but Maa attacks made ey them start raising a class of warriors. These boys would be born raised on milk, honey and meat. They would be serrated from general population. In kiambuu kikuyus just cut and run when faced by maasai. Even today in Ndeiya if maasai decide to run over kikuyu settlements it take police and paramilitary protection to stop them. I would love if Nandi scholars could put a book together on this period. The problem in kenya is that mainly only kikuyu scholars dedicated time in the 70s to document mau mau war

Karma is a bitch, the people they used to terrorize are taking over their lands.

Kalenjin have failed miserably they have blown up 2 main legacy. Koitalel and Moi. Its sad Kalenjin are landless to be honest it pains me a great community like this is going to waste most Kalenjin now are hopeless and perversion has entered the community, . At least athletics is their main hope. We will give them another opportunity through mzito Ruto 2022 lets see if they can redeem themselves and Not by plundering the country.

Kales still have the largest arable land in Kenya, I wouldn't call them landless. They lost a few bits of land to settlers but nothing catastrophic. The whole of RV is theirs, a fertile, well watered and verdant land full of potential. Total fertility rate ( TFR) has to be brought down for the Kalenjin nation to realize its full potential. They are a generation behind Kikuyus and other progressive tribes in mindset, education and exposure. Many are still stuck in the past, read Pundit's threads: he espouses very old fashioned, statist, central planning, 20th century esque emphasis on heavy industry and infrastructure buidling on credit. But the smart current consensus is investments in small holders to increase their productivity is
 what gets you the most bang for your shilling in pursuit of development. Ruto is a non starter.

Perfectly put. The Problem I see with Pundit and most graduates from Kenyan universities is their old school class of thinking. Pundit you can tell is an academically intelligent guy but lacks wisdom and modern thinking that are critical in Todays world. He would be knocked down easily if he engaged those arguments to proper millennials, at times i see them argue endlessly with Robina who I think is only interested in driving pundit crazy and our dear pundit always takes the bait.
For comparison Kalenjin are stuck with Pundit classical thinking while Kikuyus have long emancipated from this they have moved from land as basic unit of production to other areas. Another important factor for creation of wealth is population control, kipsigis and kisiis have multiplied like lice and now face economic consequences. For instance Kisii and Meru were equivalent in population in the 1990s at 1.3M each but you can see clearly 30 years kisii have added  a gap of 700K over the Ameru not forgetting Kisii county plus Nyamira are only about 2,000sqkm compared to Meru and Tharaka nithi land about 10,000sqm.
Ameru manage to hold to their favorable economic status because they perfectly balance land, population and economic activity that rules out need for mass migration to slums of Nairobi like Kisii, Luhya, Luos, Kikuyus and kalenjin do.
RV is very fertile where kalenjins live but population explosion render it useless unless immediate intervention is done, again Kalenjin need to diversify into other farming not just wheat and maize, they need go into dairy and horticultural but with old school thinking that will not change I project kalenjin reaching the current levels of Mt. Kenya societies c. 2040 AD

[RV Pundit]

Yes, I believe real development, will only happen if we go mega projects, china like. Otherwise there is so much you can get from productivity and efficiency gains from agrarian economy. This is where we differ with HK. kibakisque trickle down economic - is shortermism - we need to think big - see the British build a railway in 1890 - and see what it's done.

Most of you apply developed world economics on undeveloped world.

What developing countries need before anything else is to bridge the huge infrastracture deficit. That mean mega investment in roads, railways, housing, water, sewage, power and etc.

This is what Ethiopia is doing.

Once you have nailed infrastructure - then we should go for manufacturing.

Kales still have the largest arable land in Kenya, I wouldn't call them landless. They lost a few bits of land to settlers but nothing catastrophic. The whole of RV is theirs, a fertile, well watered and verdant land full of potential. Total fertility rate ( TFR) has to be brought down for the Kalenjin nation to realize its full potential. They are a generation behind Kikuyus and other progressive tribes in mindset, education and exposure. Many are still stuck in the past, read Pundit's threads: he espouses very old fashioned, statist, central planning, 20th century esque emphasis on heavy industry and infrastructure buidling on credit. But the smart current consensus is investments in small holders to increase their productivity is
 what gets you the most bang for your shilling in pursuit of development. Ruto is a non starter.

[RV Pundit]

When will you realize that Merus will be and have always been small potatos. You want to compare the majestic kalenjin people with Meroe or Mt warriors .

Which farming are you talking about - start with Tea - the amount of tea produced in Kericho, Nakuru,bomet, transzoia and nandi county  - by Kalenjin- would drown Meru and entire gema land.

The amount of Maize produced in Kericho, Bomet, Nandi, Narok, Nakuru, Uasin Gishu and Tranzoia would drown Meru and entire kenya - heck who feed Kenya with Ugali - if not Kalenjin.

The same with wheat and barley.  Even I bet in potatos and name all the tubers - Kalenjin would drown you.

The same with milk, beef, sheep and goats.  Baringo has more sheeps and goats than all GEMA combined.
Talk of horticulture - the amount of flowers produced by Kalenjin elite would drown anything you have in Meru.

You guys have little milk, little bananas, little mangoes and miraa. End of story.

Kalenjin are the breadbasket of kenya - we do things in large scale - and you're babies who sell bananas.

You need to take a tour of Kalenjin land so you can see FARMING!! Per capita maybe you're slighly well off - but in terms of scale - you're not there.

Kalenjin still have the best of kenya lands - in large size.

You're doing 1/4 acre farming reserved for kids in Kalenjin land. Check the tractor ownership in Kenya - and tell me if it's not almost exclusively Kalenjin.

Perfectly put. The Problem I see with Pundit and most graduates from Kenyan universities is their old school class of thinking. Pundit you can tell is an academically intelligent guy but lacks wisdom and modern thinking that are critical in Todays world. He would be knocked down easily if he engaged those arguments to proper millennials, at times i see them argue endlessly with Robina who I think is only interested in driving pundit crazy and our dear pundit always takes the bait.
For comparison Kalenjin are stuck with Pundit classical thinking while Kikuyus have long emancipated from this they have moved from land as basic unit of production to other areas. Another important factor for creation of wealth is population control, kipsigis and kisiis have multiplied like lice and now face economic consequences. For instance Kisii and Meru were equivalent in population in the 1990s at 1.3M each but you can see clearly 30 years kisii have added  a gap of 700K over the Ameru not forgetting Kisii county plus Nyamira are only about 2,000sqkm compared to Meru and Tharaka nithi land about 10,000sqm.
Ameru manage to hold to their favorable economic status because they perfectly balance land, population and economic activity that rules out need for mass migration to slums of Nairobi like Kisii, Luhya, Luos, Kikuyus and kalenjin do.
RV is very fertile where kalenjins live but population explosion render it useless unless immediate intervention is done, again Kalenjin need to diversify into other farming not just wheat and maize, they need go into dairy and horticultural but with old school thinking that will not change I project kalenjin reaching the current levels of Mt. Kenya societies c. 2040 AD

[Arcadian_Dreamer]

Yes, I believe real development, will only happen if we go mega projects, china like. Otherwise there is so much you can get from productivity and efficiency gains from agrarian economy. This is where we differ with HK. kibakisque trickle down economic - is shortermism - we need to think big - see the British build a railway in 1890 - and see what it's done.

Most of you apply developed world economics on undeveloped world.

What developing countries need before anything else is to bridge the huge infrastracture deficit. That mean mega investment in roads, railways, housing, water, sewage, power and etc.

This is what Ethiopia is doing.

Once you have nailed infrastructure - then we should go for manufacturing.

  I told you, you never change your mind despite the evidence.

I believe real development will only happen when you invest in the people, it makes absolutely no sense to invest billions of dollars on vast white elephants while your citizens literally starving. That is lunacy. I believe in small evolutionary gains in infrastructure self paid instead of huge foreign mega projects paid on credit that lines the pockets of foreigner governments. You are not even aware of the geopolitical traps being laid for developing countries. Who is pushing those huge infrastructure projects? African elites are just roped in, hoi polloi like you dance to the tune of your tribal chiefs and parrot nonsensical slogans like we need infrastructure without even deeply thinking about it. It the reason African governments continually fall into financial troubles time and time again, thoughtless, mindless and brain dead.

You think Ethiopia is doing so well? What planet are you on? Do you even read Pundit?


 

[Njuri Ncheke]

Pundit let me summarize
 you/nkalenjini=Quantity mass production china style
Me/ Ameru= Quality, niche markets Denmark style.
And you wonder why Meru tea fetchea 3 times price of Kericho nkalenjini tea?? Pundit you are stubbornly big and thick headed you must have been a bully and rebel in your youth.