Child support is 50-50 rules high court

[Nefertiti]

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Bad news for freeloaders mostly women - good for most men.

Judge declares responsibilities equal after divorce
https://www.nation.co.ke/kenya/news/judge-declares-responsibilities-equal-after-divorce-796978

[gout]

Very sensible common sense approach. The High Court is making very progressive judgements on family matters.

[RV Pundit]

I don't think there can be hard rules here; it depend on the circumstances of the cases; 50-50 like in this case makes sense because both parties earn about equal pay. In other cases, one of the spouses, has to shoulder more responsibilities.

[audacityofhope]

I don't think there can be hard rules here; it depend on the circumstances of the cases; 50-50 like in this case makes sense because both parties earn about equal pay. In other cases, one of the spouses, has to shoulder more responsibilities.

IMHO, a good number of women unfortunately remain fast rooted in the days they were being tuned, where a man even when having smaller means has to project his love for the woman by picking the tab at the coffee table. This no longer applies when married or more so, when the couple is divorced. Raising children is a joint responsibility not a punitive measure for any of the parties. Nkt. One owes what they can provide to their child without looking at what the other is providing. 

[RV Pundit]

It non-issue for me. I don't go out there siring kids. I am happy to take 100% responsibilities of my kids. Now generally our women (your sister, aunt, name it) have the odds stack against them. So I am pro-woman personally. They also do a lot of job taking care of the kids - changing diapers and all that cooking is not easy.If Kenyan men were told to be cooking, cleaning and doing all that women 50-50; they will prefer to pay 80% of the upkeep.

IMHO, a good number of women unfortunately remain fast rooted in the days they were being tuned, where a man even when having smaller means has to project his love for the woman by picking the tab at the coffee table. This no longer applies when married or more so, when the couple is divorced. Raising children is a joint responsibility not a punitive measure for any of the parties. Nkt. One owes what they can provide to their child without looking at what the other is providing. 

[Dear Mami]

Thank you, Pundit. And you're right. You csn't create hard and fast rules about this. If one parent has a very humble job, will the child suffer to maintain a 50-50 deal? No. This is not alimony. It's about the child, not the parents. In Kenya, the fundamental rule about children is their best interests trump all else in family law. And yes, men almost never do the actual child care and yet they are eager to say "50-50". I haven't read this case but if the parents are equally moneyed, of course they should both contribute to their child's upkeep. That won't always be the case, however. If a woman is a millionair, for example, and the father if her child a jua kali, it'd be ridiculous to demand 50-50 contribution. Same goes for when the situation is flipped.

[RV Pundit]

Exactly. If developed world are yet to untangle all the patriarchy in their society; we should be careful about doing that in kenya; women still get a bad deal generally. Yes, there are few gold diggers, but majority of women are suffering with kids, while kenyan men, are out there siring more kids to unsuspecting women.

Thank you, Pundit. And you're right. You csn't create hard and fast rules about this. If one parent has a very humble job, will the child suffer to maintain a 50-50 deal? No. This is not alimony. It's about the child, not the parents. In Kenya, the fundamental rule about children is their best interests trump all else in family law. And yes, men almost never do the actual child care and yet they are eager to say "50-50". I haven't read this case but if the parents are equally moneyed, of course they should both contribute to their child's upkeep. That won't always be the case, however. If a woman is a millionair, for example, and the father if her child a jua kali, it'd be ridiculous to demand 50-50 contribution. Same goes for when the situation is flipped.

[Nefertiti]

After divorce - the "taking care of child" doesn't make any sense since having primary custody is a privilege usually fought for. Often custody fight is brutal. The financial needs of the child should be split based on income - but women and in fact most (old) laws discriminate men on this. In any case we women have pushed for the equality not the men - we can't have our cake and eat it too. "Provider" is as backward as FGM.

[RV Pundit]

You're confusing California with Kenya. Most kenyans are like black men - in the US - deadbeat fathers. They will never sue for child custody. They get dragged to court for child support. We are not dealing with white responsible men.

After divorce - the "taking care of child" doesn't make any sense since having primary custody is a privilege usually fought for. Often custody fight is brutal. The financial needs of the child should be split based on income - but women and in fact most (old) laws discriminate men on this. In any case we women have pushed for the equality not the men - we can't have our cake and eat it too. "Provider" is as backward as FGM.

[GeeMail]

Exactly. If developed world are yet to untangle all the patriarchy in their society; we should be careful about doing that in kenya; women still get a bad deal generally. Yes, there are few gold diggers, but majority of women are suffering with kids, while kenyan men, are out there siring more kids to unsuspecting women.

Thank you, Pundit. And you're right. You csn't create hard and fast rules about this. If one parent has a very humble job, will the child suffer to maintain a 50-50 deal? No. This is not alimony. It's about the child, not the parents. In Kenya, the fundamental rule about children is their best interests trump all else in family law. And yes, men almost never do the actual child care and yet they are eager to say "50-50". I haven't read this case but if the parents are equally moneyed, of course they should both contribute to their child's upkeep. That won't always be the case, however. If a woman is a millionair, for example, and the father if her child a jua kali, it'd be ridiculous to demand 50-50 contribution. Same goes for when the situation is flipped.

Pundit you've spoken with wisdom. I agree with you entirely which is rare.

[RV Pundit]

I always speak with wisdom - even when we don't agree politically.

Pundit you've spoken with wisdom. I agree with you entirely which is rare.

[audacityofhope]

I always speak with wisdom - even when we don't agree politically.

Pundit you've spoken with wisdom. I agree with you entirely which is rare.

Pundit's lack of wisdom on matters political is seasonal and self-inflicted. Around about 2011/12 his current season of being a political pinhead begun. This season will come to an end when either of the two happens, whichever comes first; he puts aside his tribal political loyalties or he stops sticking his cranium in a leader(s)' place where the sun don't shine ... hiyo tu

[RV Pundit]

We don't have to agree politically. You're in ODM and I am in Ruto camp. Nobody is right or wrong.

Pundit's lack of wisdom on matters political is seasonal and self-inflicted. His season of being a political pinhead will come to an end when either of the two happens, whichever comes first; he puts aside his tribal political loyalties or he stops sticking his cranium in a leader(s)' place where the sun don't shine ... hiyo tu
[/quote

[Nefertiti]

And you are conflating yourself with the Talai elders - thought you are from the digital Silicon Savannah.

This is about the law - not your personal preferences. I don't protest romantic Pundit from pampering his woman/family - or Robina from cooking special recipes for her family, mopping floors and nursing the kids. That is a personal choice and/or driven by circumstance. The katiba 2010 and law says we are equal - the case should start with 50-50 - then use scenario facts and arguments of income, child care, etc circumstances. Equality is commonsense and math; it actually corrects patriarchy or tradition and this cannot be selective. Equal opportunity and privilege means equal responsibility and duties - no ifs or buts. You could argue for shared child care - chores - not fumble the math with discriminatory default man pays. But you cannot enforce paying of family bills or chores in marriage - so you determine it at divorce or conflict point. Custody for one is a privilege - I don't get per diem for it like the nanny. Unless one couple is irresponsible say alcoholic - or logistics like school - or the kids refuse - custody should be equal as well and needs to be corrected. Kids need their dads and that is a well known social problem - parental alienation. I should not be paid to keep the kids after fighting tooth and nail for the privilege.

Bottomline - start at 50-50 as default - cause equality - and argue subjectives from there.

You're confusing California with Kenya. Most kenyans are like black men - in the US - deadbeat fathers. They will never sue for child custody. They get dragged to court for child support. We are not dealing with white responsible men.

[RV Pundit]

If issues were black - and- white like that we won't need judiciary. We would just codify everything into law and apply it. The police would enforce the law. But as you realize the magistrate and judges after doing a quick job on the law; will focus on the facts of the case; every case is different;

As a principle - everyone is agreed that child is 50-50 responsibility btw two people. We are agreed that women and men are equal. This does happen - say if you marry your work colleague of the same rank . But in reality there are difference in income - men by default marry down - women by default marry up, etc. So what happens - if a woman is richer than man - he cannot ask for 50-50 - otherwise the child will suffer if the man 50% is 2,000 Kshs. Will a child survive on 4,000 shs?.

The default (90%) of the cases...men (who proposes) to marry anyway - marry down..so they can become real men...they marry women of lower social status...and cannot complain when things don't work out.

If you want 50-50 - marry a women of your equal status.

And you are conflating yourself with the Talai elders - thought you are from the digital Silicon Savannah.

This is about the law - not your personal preferences. I don't protest romantic Pundit from pampering his woman/family - or Robina from cooking special recipes for her family, mopping floors and nursing the kids. That is a personal choice and/or driven by circumstance. The katiba 2010 and law says we are equal - the case should start with 50-50 - then use scenario facts and arguments of income, child care, etc circumstances. Equality is commonsense and math; it actually corrects patriarchy or tradition and this cannot be selective. Equal opportunity and privilege means equal responsibility and duties - no ifs or buts. You could argue for shared child care - chores - not fumble the math with discriminatory default man pays. But you cannot enforce paying of family bills or chores in marriage - so you determine it at divorce or conflict point. Custody for one is a privilege - I don't get per diem for it like the nanny. Unless one couple is irresponsible say alcoholic - or logistics like school - or the kids refuse - custody should be equal as well and needs to be corrected. Kids need their dads and that is a well known social problem - parental alienation. I should not be paid to keep the kids after fighting tooth and nail for the privilege.

Bottomline - start at 50-50 as default - cause equality - and argue subjectives from there.

You're confusing California with Kenya. Most kenyans are like black men - in the US - deadbeat fathers. They will never sue for child custody. They get dragged to court for child support. We are not dealing with white responsible men.

[Nefertiti]

I guess we are saying the same thing. But in the same reality - most magistrates and society are stuck in stone age - when the woman was property. Case in point the magistrate who imposed the fees and upkeep disproportionately on the man here.

If issues were black - and- white like that we won't need judiciary. We would just codify everything into law and apply it. The police would enforce the law. But as you realize the magistrate and judges after doing a quick job on the law; will focus on the facts of the case; every case is different;

As a principle - everyone is agreed that child is 50-50 responsibility btw two people. We are agreed that women and men are equal. This does happen - say if you marry your work colleague of the same rank . But in reality there are difference in income - men by default marry down - women by default marry up, etc. So what happens - if a woman is richer than man - he cannot ask for 50-50 - otherwise the child will suffer if the man 50% is 2,000 Kshs. Will a child survive on 4,000 shs?.

The default (90%) of the cases...men (who proposes) to marry anyway - marry down..so they can become real men...they marry women of lower social status...and cannot complain when things don't work out.

If you want 50-50 - marry a women of your equal status.

[Kichwa]

Why is this ruling ground breaking. This is just where the analysis should begin everything being equal.  However, all is never equal in that most men earn more than women and most women are better suited to be primary custodial parent even in joint custody jurisdictions.  Since the payment of child support is dependent on income and child custody arrangements,  men will disproportionally continue to pay child support and women will disproportionally end up being the custodial parents.

Bad news for freeloaders mostly women - good for most men.

Judge declares responsibilities equal after divorce
https://www.nation.co.ke/kenya/news/judge-declares-responsibilities-equal-after-divorce-796978

[RV Pundit]

Well summarized Justice Kichwa Mbaya. You should join one of Kenya courts as long as it not political.

Why is this ruling ground breaking. This is just where the analysis should begin everything being equal.  However, all is never equal in that most men earn more than women and most women are better suited to be primary custodial parent even in joint custody jurisdictions.  Since the payment of child support is dependent on income and child custody arrangements,  men will disproportionally continue to pay child support and women will disproportionally end up being the custodial parents.