Re: vooke, kadame: Is it wrong for a christian to be rich?

[bittertruth]

my broda,
China is fast rising in the world scene and it is almost 100% non-Christian. I was expecting the 'most Christian' nation to rise. BTW, in your opinion, what country has the highest population of evangelicals like you? How has its circumstances changed over the years?

This is non sequitur.  We are not competing how many evangelical or Taoist we have on our camp. And by the way which is your camp?

Please quit lying, believers don't live longer and are not necessarily healthier. If they are happier, it is because of having eternity in mind not because their present circumstances are better.

could there be any other reason to make believer healthier and happier?
Its actually YOU who is lying. Read Proverbs 3:1-2
1My son, do not forget my teaching,
    but keep my commands in your heart,
2 for they will prolong your life many years
    and bring you peace and prosperity.[color]

Substance abuse and other risky behaviors will shorten lifespan but they are not exclusively non-Christians. I know many teetotalers who are non-believers for instance

What do you insinuate by non exclusively non-Christians. As far as I am concerned, drunkards belong to Hell. and if there is, not in evangelical doctrine of Faith.

[vooke]

bittertruth,
there was poverty in the first century church. If poverty was a demon, wasn't Paul out of his mind in collecting an offering for the same instead of exorcising it? Charity was a KEY aspect of Primitive Christianity. I hope you revere the Word of God above the junk they feed you every Sunday

Romans 15:26 New King James Version (NKJV)
26 For it pleased those from Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are in Jerusalem.

1 Corinthians 16:1New King James Version (NKJV)
16 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also:

Galatians 2:10New King James Version (NKJV)
10 They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do.

Why charity instead of exorcism?
Poverty like disease,pain  and death is a consequence of the fall of man. These are here with us until this world and earth is done away with. I find it deeply condescending to tell those people who can't afford a decent meal per day that they are cursed and lazy

[vooke]

I used China because they are prospering greatly and are non-Christian to show you the contradiction of your stance. If prosperity is a benefit of Christianity, non-CHristians would be far much miserable. They are not. I can't believe that an intelligent coder can fail to see these. You have taken up Obtuseness mantle from Nuff Sed

Did First Century Christians miss Proverbs 3 by any chance because many were poor? And what would have been a better remedy for their wealth apart from telling them to obey God's Word?  Do you know of ANY poor Christians in your circles or family? is this what you prescribe to them? Reciting Joyce Meyer mantras?

About substance abuse, I mean an irresponsible drunk who reforms outside CHristianity is equally likely to prosper as a Christian. So is a hardworking,focussed atheist. Success principles in the Bible are universal; they work on everyone. This means they are NO PROOF that Christians fare better than non-Christians

my broda,
China is fast rising in the world scene and it is almost 100% non-Christian. I was expecting the 'most Christian' nation to rise. BTW, in your opinion, what country has the highest population of evangelicals like you? How has its circumstances changed over the years?

This is non sequitur.  We are not competing how many evangelical or Taoist we have on our camp. And by the way which is your camp?

Please quit lying, believers don't live longer and are not necessarily healthier. If they are happier, it is because of having eternity in mind not because their present circumstances are better.

could there be any other reason to make believer healthier and happier?
Its actually YOU who is lying. Read Proverbs 3:1-2
1My son, do not forget my teaching,
    but keep my commands in your heart,
2 for they will prolong your life many years
    and bring you peace and prosperity.[color]

Substance abuse and other risky behaviors will shorten lifespan but they are not exclusively non-Christians. I know many teetotalers who are non-believers for instance

What do you insinuate by non exclusively non-Christians. As far as I am concerned, drunkards belong to Hell. and if there is, not in evangelical doctrine of Faith.

[bittertruth]

vooke, my question is this, if poverty is Godliness as you insinuate, then why did Jesus or Paul advocate for charity to support the poor?
The purpose to help  the poor is to uplift their standards. God desire is for all humanity to prosper.  Proverbs 3:1-2

bittertruth,
there was poverty in the first century church. If poverty was a demon, wasn't Paul out of his mind in collecting an offering for the same instead of exorcising it? Charity was a KEY aspect of Primitive Christianity. I hope you revere the Word of God above the junk they feed you every Sunday

Romans 15:26 New King James Version (NKJV)
26 For it pleased those from Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are in Jerusalem.

1 Corinthians 16:1New King James Version (NKJV)
16 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also:

Galatians 2:10New King James Version (NKJV)
10 They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do.

Why charity instead of exorcism?
Poverty like disease,pain  and death is a consequence of the fall of man. These are here with us until this world and earth is done away with. I find it deeply condescending to tell those people who can't afford a decent meal per day that they are cursed and lazy

[vooke]

bittertruth,

The Old Testament /Torah had provisions for the poor because God knew poverty even in obedience would be inevitable. That's why CHARITY was incorporated into the Law of Moses. Tithes was supposed to help the poor besides the Levites
You shall leave them for the poor and for the stranger that the poor of your people may eatAnd if one of your brethren who dwells by you becomes poor
Let me school you in Economics 101. Demand and Supply. Supposing everybody had 1 million salary in Kenia, would there be poverty?

[vooke]

bittertruth,
Please you can insult me all you want but don't misrepresent my post and proceed to attack them. You are a good student of Nuff Sed
I never said nor insinuated that poverty or disease is godliness.
I said POVERTY IS INEVITABLE in and out of Christianity because it is a consequence of the fall of man

You are characterizing poverty as a curse or demon (that's Pentecostal BS that's totally unscriptural. Am sure they feed you this every Sunday to make you part with your hard earned mullah).

Paul practiced and prescribed Charity instead of exorcism because those Christians had done NOTHING to deserve poverty. If they were possessed, charity was in vain. Same case if they was cursed. He did discourage some from laziness though

vooke, my question is this, if poverty is Godliness as you insinuate, then why did Jesus or Paul advocate for charity to support the poor?
The purpose to help  the poor is to uplift their standards. God desire is for all humanity to prosper.  Proverbs 3:1-2

[bittertruth]

I used China because they are prospering greatly and are non-Christian to show you the contradiction of your stance. If prosperity is a benefit of Christianity, non-CHristians would be far much miserable. They are not. I can't believe that an intelligent coder can fail to see these. You have taken up Obtuseness mantle from Nuff Sed

vooke,
Do you mean that your life is more miserable now than was without Christ?

Did First Century Christians miss Proverbs 3 by any chance because many were poor? And what would have been a better remedy for their wealth apart from telling them to obey God's Word?  Do you know of ANY poor Christians in your circles or family? is this what you prescribe to them? Reciting Joyce Meyer mantras?

I agree that many were poor, But many were also prosperous, and were generous enough to give sufficiently to those who were poor. For Gods desire is for all humanity to prosper.
When I identify a needy soul, I pray with them, and I empower them be it capital, job, counselling  etc.
Why would someone remain a beggar in the streets when they can hawk and become independent citizens?

About substance abuse, I mean an irresponsible drunk who reforms outside CHristianity is equally likely to prosper as a Christian. So is a hardworking,focussed atheist. Success principles in the Bible are universal; they work on everyone. This means they are NO PROOF that Christians fare better than non-Christians

Psalm 73:12 in the Amplified Bible says:
Behold, these are the ungodly, who always prosper and are at ease in the world; they increase in riches.
We should never spend even one second ..not one, being envious, jealous or upset when the ungodly prosper or get recognition we don't.

[vooke]

Bittertruth,
My present state is really no different from my non-believer classmates I left behind as I gave my life to Christ in Form 1. Some are doing exceptionally well, legally and are far ahead of me, others are my equals while others are behind me.

I think you are deliberately ignoring obvious facts that contradict the junk that you subscribe to. vooke is not saying Christians are more miserable than non-Christians, just that there is abundance/ lack across humanity regardless of their relationship with Christ

Now that you agree with me about poverty and abundance in the early church, do you deem their poverty a contradiction of their faith that could have been remedied by casting out poverty demons and breaking generational curses?

Whatever you are doing to help the less fortunate,don't spread your arrogance of poverty-is-a-curse/demon/consequence-of-sin because there are MANY Christians who have none of these and like the first century Christians are still dirt poor.  Where I fellowship, there are many genuine and more committed negro Christians than me who rake in a fraction of what I do. I don't look down on them

Psalms 73 talks about unrighteous/wicked wealth/prosperity. It is not applicable to the many hardworking non-believers who make honest millions out of their own sweat. It is a no brainer that Christians don't call the shots in ANY profession or industry except prosperity Fraud

I used China because they are prospering greatly and are non-Christian to show you the contradiction of your stance. If prosperity is a benefit of Christianity, non-CHristians would be far much miserable. They are not. I can't believe that an intelligent coder can fail to see these. You have taken up Obtuseness mantle from Nuff Sed

vooke,
Do you mean that your life is more miserable now than was without Christ?

Did First Century Christians miss Proverbs 3 by any chance because many were poor? And what would have been a better remedy for their wealth apart from telling them to obey God's Word?  Do you know of ANY poor Christians in your circles or family? is this what you prescribe to them? Reciting Joyce Meyer mantras?

I agree that many were poor, But many were also prosperous, and were generous enough to give sufficiently to those who were poor. For Gods desire is for all humanity to prosper.
When I identify a needy soul, I pray with them, and I empower them be it capital, job, counselling  etc.
Why would someone remain a beggar in the streets when they can hawk and become independent citizens?

About substance abuse, I mean an irresponsible drunk who reforms outside CHristianity is equally likely to prosper as a Christian. So is a hardworking,focussed atheist. Success principles in the Bible are universal; they work on everyone. This means they are NO PROOF that Christians fare better than non-Christians

Psalm 73:12 in the Amplified Bible says:
Behold, these are the ungodly, who always prosper and are at ease in the world; they increase in riches.
We should never spend even one second ..not one, being envious, jealous or upset when the ungodly prosper or get recognition we don't.

[kadame]

Bittertruth, How come this prosperity falls short of guaranteeing believers an immortal earthly life? Why do Christians still die like other people?

No one is denying God blesses Christians. He also blesses non-Christians. No body would have a meal today if God did not provide for them. Poverty and suffering is not good in itself, but it can be used to trust God where you have no choice. Where you have choices and are poor out of sheer laziness obviously there is a fault there. But not all poverty is chosen. Those children in famines never chose poverty and you cant tell me entire tribes and cultures are suffering from generational curses when they are hit with famine or even disease. Should we say our Africa is bearing a demon that makes us as a people so poor?

Look, white people have completely thrown away their Christianity. Europe cannot be considered a Christian continent any more, in all honesty. Yet they are the richest. The Scandinavians have the best lifestyles on earth. They are almost all atheist/agnostic when polled. Christianity in some European countries is in the single digits, believe me. Yet they used to be all Christians, just few decades ago. What's happening there? The only Western country that still retains its faith somewhat though it is also loosing it, is the USA. Germany, Britain, France, Spain, Italy are now virtually non-Christian countries, only cultural connections make them identify as Christian but zero belief. Jesus is more likely to be insulted and blasphemed in these countries than in a Muslim nation or even in poor Africa.  If someone looked at this with the mind that material wealth was a sign of faith, he would be forced to conclude that God has lost the plot completely.

[vooke]

kadame,
I was following this debate on nairaland and one negro, a sworn Oyakhilome fanatic audaciously declared that since he is Born again and full of the Holy Spirit just like Jesus, he can and he does the same miracles and he can NEVER be sick nor poor seeing these are consequences of sin and Christ did away with sin.

Somebody aksd him whether Christians fall sick and he said that like we occasionally fall into sin, a beliEver may fall sick. Unperturbed, he aksd why Christians still die yet death came as a result of the Fall/Sin. The answer was almost comical.

He said that death is regarded as an enemy bla bla bla and that Jesus has the keys of death and Hades and as such only He can call us home BUT HE IS SO 'KIND' HE NEVER DOES IT WITHOUT OUR CONSENT!

I joined in and aksd him if he had plans of preaching the gospel for 300 years by simply not consenting to his 'going home' seeing technically a Christian can live for as long as they want. I also wondered why believers like him conveniently consent to 'going home' at between 70 and 90 years

This is the conundrum you find yourself in for adopting a stupid and unbiblical stance.

Bittertruth, How come this prosperity falls short of guaranteeing believers an immortal earthly life? Why do Christians still die like other people?

[kadame]

Ha ha! Ati consent? The way some of these negroes love this life, I bet God would get mteja permanently if he kept calling on the business of dying.

kadame,
I was following this debate on nairaland and one negro, a sworn Oyakhilome fanatic audaciously declared that since he is Born again and full of the Holy Spirit just like Jesus, he can and he does the same miracles and he can NEVER be sick nor poor seeing these are consequences of sin and Christ did away with sin.

Somebody aksd him whether Christians fall sick and he said that like we occasionally fall into sin, a beliEver may fall sick. Unperturbed, he aksd why Christians still die yet death came as a result of the Fall/Sin. The answer was almost comical.

He said that death is regarded as an enemy bla bla bla and that Jesus has the keys of death and Hades and as such only He can call us home BUT HE IS SO 'KIND' HE NEVER DOES IT WITHOUT OUR CONSENT!

I joined in and aksd him if he had plans of preaching the gospel for 300 years by simply not consenting to his 'going home' seeing technically a Christian can live for as long as they want. I also wondered why believers like him conveniently consent to 'going home' at between 70 and 90 years

This is the conundrum you find yourself in for adopting a stupid and unbiblical stance.

Bittertruth, How come this prosperity falls short of guaranteeing believers an immortal earthly life? Why do Christians still die like other people?

[kadame]

To Bittertruth, St. Paul's advice to Christians on financial matters. 

Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have

Hebrews 13:5New International Version (NIV)

[vooke]

kadame,
that was funny
NASIKITIKA......
Anyway the bigger problem is clinging to illogical man-made doctrines at ALL costs

Ha ha! Ati consent? The way some of these negroes love this life, I bet God would get mteja permanently if he kept calling on the business of dying.

[bittertruth]

Bittertruth, How come this prosperity falls short of guaranteeing believers an immortal earthly life? Why do Christians still die like other people?

Christians have immortal life sister. We don't believe in the soul sleep heresy. Jesus overcame death, and so we are.

No one is denying God blesses Christians. He also blesses non-Christians. No body would have a meal today if God did not provide for them. Poverty and suffering is not good in itself, but it can be used to trust God where you have no choice.Where you have choices and are poor out of sheer laziness obviously there is a fault there. But not all poverty is chosen. Those children in famines never chose poverty and you cant tell me entire tribes and cultures are suffering from generational curses when they are hit with famine or even disease. Should we say our Africa is bearing a demon that makes us as a people so poor?

Its disheartening to see how you continually demonstrate Gods as incapable. Where did you get this notion of having not CHOICE. This demonstrates  your unadulterated ignorance and  lack of faith thereof.

Look, white people have completely thrown away their Christianity. Europe cannot be considered a Christian continent any more, in all honesty. Yet they are the richest. The Scandinavians have the best lifestyles on earth. They are almost all atheist/agnostic when polled. Christianity in some European countries is in the single digits, believe me. Yet they used to be all Christians, just few decades ago. What's happening there? The only Western country that still retains its faith somewhat though it is also loosing it, is the USA. Germany, Britain, France, Spain, Italy are now virtually non-Christian countries, only cultural connections make them identify as Christian but zero belief. Jesus is more likely to be insulted and blasphemed in these countries than in a Muslim nation or even in poor Africa.  If someone looked at this with the mind that material wealth was a sign of faith, he would be forced to conclude that God has lost the plot completely.

This just demonstrates how you Doubt God. That's foolish.
Psalm 73:1-8 "Surely God is good to Israel, to those who are pure in heart. But as for me, my feet had almost slipped. I had nearly lost my foothold. For I envied the arrogant when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. They have no struggles; their bodies are healthy and strong. They are free from the burdens common to man; they are not plagued by human ills. Therefore pride is their necklace; they clothe themselves with violence. From their callous hearts comes iniquity the evil conceits of their minds know no limits. They scoff and speak with malice; in their arrogance they threaten oppression. They mouths lay claim to heaven, and their tongues take possession of the earth".
It seemed to Asaph that the wicked enjoyed lives of ease and plenty, and then died peacefully without suffering. Yet their lives had been characterized by pride, cruelty, greed, trickery, scorn, oppression and boasting. Some of the godly were tempted to follow their example, for it seemed that God did not interfere with the wicked in their comfort. Even Asaph himself felt at times that there was so no purpose in suffering for God's sake.
Looking back, Asaph now sees how foolish he has been to doubt God. Although he had acted like an ignorant animal, the everlasting God has not left him. Asaph sees now that in God he has riches and pleasures that are permanent and beyond value.

[bittertruth]

Kadame, we all agreed that money in itself is not evil. But the love for money. All comments in this thread underpin this.
Now in all wisdom in you, do you believe that this was only addressed to the poor? certainly not. This addressed the rich and poor in equal measure.
Greed is not limited to the poor nor is contentment limited to the rich.

"A greedy man brings trouble to his own house." Proverbs 15:27 Here's another one: "They are like greedy dogs...everyone is for his own gain." Isaiah 56:11

To Bittertruth, St. Paul's advice to Christians on financial matters. 

Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have

Hebrews 13:5New International Version (NIV)

[kadame]

Bittertruth, the way you keep relying on misrepresentations and distortions shows you have no genuine response to any of the points raised.

Tell me what choice children in famines or AIDS hospices have. Tell me what choice a child abandoned in the streets has. I don't know about you but I know whenever I am sick or grieving someone's death, I did not choose to be in those situations. If I had a choice I would never deliberately get sick or get myself in an accident or allow anyone I loved to die or experience any misfortune. I know when relatives have fallen ill and needed huge amounts for insane hospital bills, they never chose not to have fat wallets in those moments. So I really don't know what you are talking about. Really. ??

You know I talked about an immortal EARTHLY life. Introducing soul sleep here is plain pretense.

No one said that Paul was talking only to the poor, that is another distortion. I clearly said it was his advice to CHRISTIANS. That means everyone, not just rich, poor, or middle-class. Yes, its a caution against greed. Greed is exactly what drives the prosperity gospel.

[bittertruth]

Does prosperity equate to immortality?  You should stick to facts . Using what we don't practise to prove your point is sheer nonsense.

You know I talked about an immortal EARTHLY life. Introducing soul sleep here is plain pretense.

[vooke]

thank you kadame for pointing this out
Why would a negro cling to doctrines they can't substantiate scripturally nor empirically?

Bittertruth, the way you keep relying on misrepresentations and distortions shows you have no genuine response to any of the points raised.

[bittertruth]

Its you who is trying to distort the infallible word of God.  When the bible says be content with what you have it doesn't mean that you should be content in your poverty as you blindly attempted to insinuate.
There are no circumstances in life when a believer should have no choice.  "NO CHOICE" is a state of despair/No hope.
This is the false gospel that the devil is propagating by making Christians begin doubting Gods faithfulness.

thank you kadame for pointing this out
Why would a negro cling to doctrines they can't substantiate scripturally nor empirically?

Bittertruth, the way you keep relying on misrepresentations and distortions shows you have no genuine response to any of the points raised.

[kadame]

There is an old prayer that recovering alcoholics at AA say, the serenity prayer. It goes

Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
the courage to change the things I can change;
And the wisdom to know the difference.

It is simply an acknowledgment that there are things we have control over and there are things we have no control over. Sometimes we don't realize which is which. If a Christian is in a position to improve his present circumstances, by all means, do your best.

It is true that a Christian always has a choice in any condition, but which choice? Those who have prayed for God to cure a loved one of terminal illness and did not receive the response they expected and lost their loved one anyway, yes they have a choice: They can choose the mindset that looks at such things as evidence of a curse or lack of faith/faithfulness and then despair or abandon their faith, or they can surrender their suffering, confusion and pain to God, believing that "All things work together for the good of them that love the Lord". ALL things means all things. Even when we can't see how something so horrible could possibly be used for good, we believe God is working in ways we cant see for our own good and the good of others. That is what faith is to me. It is surrendering control over our lives to God even when we don't like how things are steering. But if faith means insisting on being in control over things you are not in control over, to each his own.