Re: vooke, kadame: Is it wrong for a christian to be rich?

[vooke]

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The primary emphasis of the cross is it save man from sin and reconcile him back to God.
Christians are not richer nor healthier than pagans nowhere in the world. Atheist Chinese and Japanese are the healthiest.

Giving to God as an investment vehicle is pure scam. It is unbiblical. Tithers are just as broke as non-tithers.TBN is a scam.

Read this verse;
1 Cor 15:19 (HCSB)
 19 If we have put our hope in Christ for this life only, we should be pitied more than anyone.

'We' here refers to Christians. It underpins how a believer is almost always worse off in this world. Surely my hope in Christ is not the ticket out of misery

vooke, Kadame
The bible says seek ye first His kingdom and Righteousness and all these things will be given to you as well. God is the giver of all these material things. What's wrong in  believing that, kwani are we meant to be beggars or something. We have Christian dollar billionares, how's that wicked?. If I give a thousand dollars to support family tv, I am serving God simply to keep God on the airwaves.

[vooke]

They are similar but Catholicism were more spiritual in that they was buying spiritual stuff

WHat is the difference between WOF and the Catholicism error of hawking sins? Apart from being hundreds of years apart, at least Catholics was spiritual, buying eternity, shorter stay in purgatory and so forth. WOF is selling pure carnality; mo money, promotion, business, better health

They are both wrong. What was your point? That Catholics are sinners too? You did not need to travel centuries for that. The difference, the church put a stop to it by condemning it. Have no idea how this new theology of evangelicals is going to be stopped, though. Maybe divine intervention.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

WHat is the difference between WOF and the Catholicism error of hawking sins? Apart from being hundreds of years apart, at least Catholics was spiritual, buying eternity, shorter stay in purgatory and so forth. WOF is selling pure carnality; mo money, promotion, business, better health

If you are talking indulgences.  I think those were individuals selling them.  It was not church policy.

[kadame]

vooke, why you talking to yourself in the headline?? That's weird....

[kadame]

As for the topic "Is it wrong for Christians to be rich"? No one has claimed that the world, richness, or anything good is bad for Christians to have. It is the weird focuss on it by the prosperity crowd that is worrying. God is a father. Even the hair that is pulled off by my comb is a gift. I never paid him for it. Heck, I didnt even ask. He just gave it to me bila consulting me. I just don't see where we should associate giving away money to preachers with worldly prosperity? Even when we perform acts of charity for heavenly riches, it must be true love, which is selfless, or it is of little value. That's what Paul said. And he should know! What didnt he give up for love of Christ? His beloved religion, career, community, reputation, possession, and finally his own head. Yet he says even a love-less martyrdom (giving away my body to be burned) with the wrong intention is meaningless.

[mya88]

Read this verse;
1 Cor 15:19 (HCSB)
 19 If we have put our hope in Christ for this life only, we should be pitied more than anyone

.

@vooke
You are misintepreting that verse.....I think where it says "for this life only"...it means if we base our hope in the current physical world only, then we should be pitied, because in christ we believe in the afterlife, or is it resurrection.......nothing about riches here.

And on what proof are you basing the claims that TBN is a scam? Are you then saying all those preachers who come there to spread the gospel are cons? It seems to me you have taken a stand on something and are looking for scriptures to support it however vague, ignoring all those that may be contary to your theory.......speaking as though you have some authority on the matter. Respect those who have gone before you. There is nothing wrong with giving especially if its for the purposes of spreading the gospel. TBN is the most worldwide reaching gopsel network and its costs money to run such a network. hiyo tuu.

@Kababe

When the bible says "give and it shall be given unto you", what does that mean? What are we giving, unto who?

[kadame]

Mya,

What are we giving? Everything. Our time, our talents, our possessions, the works, our joy, our kindness etc etc. To whom? To our neighbour. That means those God has put in our lives. Our immediate families, friends, neighbours, enemies etc etc. Funny thing, the "panda mbegu" crowd will never tell you to panda in the Hospital, the streets, the old people and childrens homes. Seems God only recognizes the seed that goes to that preacher who is promising you the cars/houses etc. Nor is the mbegu ever acts of kindness, always the pretty coin...

What I don't agree with is that God pangas his gifts to us according to the money we give. Who said we shall receive in kind, anyway? Jesus said not to place our treasures on this earth but in heaven where no thieves break in and steal. The point? When we only give to get, we are not giving out of love of another but out of love of ourselves. Give because Christ commands it, and you love Christ, want to please him. Give because it is good for the person you give. Just don't be giving as a way to regift yourself. The reason we get even more when we give is because God is goodness and goodness shares itself. You cant compete with goodness in being good, it will always beat you. But let that be God's gift, not our payment. When we are giving just to get, in a way we are treating it like some form of payment. God's generosity does not give us a licence to start issuing commands to him in the name of "faith". Shouldn't our faith be filial, like a child and his dad? Imagine a child who can't take a "No" from his father, isn't it a brat? That's how the prosperity folk sound to me. They believe they are entitled to God's gifts.

[kadame]

Mya, let us use Muslims because it always easy to see other people's specs than our own beam, that's just how we are, what can we do?   Now, imagine a jihadist who blows himself up in order to get 72 fine virgins in heaven. What do you think motivates this individual? Is it love of God or love of the 72 virgins, or better yet, love of the little fella between his legs? Prosperity guys replace the muslim martrydom with the pretty coin/mbegu, and promise the carnal heaven here on earth. Yet the same mind set is at work.

[mya88]

@Kababe

Again it says "give and it shall be given unto you" I want to stress the last part "given unto you". That scripture tells us somewthing will be given back to you, it can be anything, Gods love , mercey, money et cetera. When it says "it shall be given unto you", mans inclination is then to expect something back.....notice that nowhere do I say in kind, but the bible teaches us to expect, infact there is a verse where God says "test me....." cant remember which one. Point is I have no problem with prosperity gospel if it accomplishes Gods work. Infact I think Africa as whole need more of that prosperity gospel and maybe we may just get out of the poverty cycle that plagues that continent. Faith after all comes from hearing....If you hear it long enough, believe in it, then you can be it, you can achieve it... These preachers arent forcing anyone to give, they are asking and are talking about tried and tested methods for them, you may not fully agree with them, but I wont dismiss them at face value. I am not talking about those cons in Kenya who are asking people to pay for miracles. I am talking about  the Joel Osteen type of preachers, the Bishop jakes kind of preachers.....they know something we dont know, and its up to us to decide what we want to hear and want we dont want to hear.

[kadame]

@Kababe

Again it says "give and it shall be given unto you" I want to stress the last part "given unto you". That scripture tells us somewthing will be given back to you, it can be anything, Gods love , mercey, money et cetera. When it says "it shall be given unto you", mans inclination is then to expect something back.....notice that nowhere do I say in kind, but the bible teaches us to expect, infact there is a verse where God says "test me....." cant remember which one. Point is I have no problem with prosperity gospel if it accomplishes Gods work. Infact I think Africa as whole need more of that prosperity gospel and maybe we may just get out of the poverty cycle that plagues that continent. Faith after all comes from hearing....If you hear it long enough, believe in it, then you can be it, you can achieve it... These preachers arent forcing anyone to give, they are asking and are talking about tried and tested methods for them, you may not fully agree with them, but I wont dismiss them at face value. I am not talking about those cons in Kenya who are asking people to pay for miracles. I am talking about  the Joel Osteen type of preachers, the Bishop jakes kind of preachers.....they know something we dont know, and its up to us to decide what we want to hear and want we dont want to hear.

If it does not say in "in kind", as you admit, then what gives these preachers the gall to tell people to expect a car, or a house, or money? I do like Joel Osteen and I've never heard him tell anybody that if he plants a seed aka money, a car and a house are on the way. In fact, the "seeds" he talks about are always acts of kindness to others, forgiveness, letting go of stuff we lose, trust in God etc etc. I have NEVER heard him ask for money from anyone. Not even once. And then promise that if you give him the money, your wildest dreams will come true. Joyce Meyer too. Never heard her dedicate even one single sermon to "planting a seed" in her church, She's always teaching about how to live your life as a Christian in every day life, the proper attitude to have, trust in God, not being focused on yourself but those around you etc etc I don't like African american preachers coz of all their dramatics/threatics so dont listen much to Bishop TD Jakes, but my mother does and I don't recall hearing him dedicate sermons to "planting a seed". But on TBN, they have this week for raising money, where all manner of preachers come on, kina Rod parsley and Jessee Duplantis and sijui who and they start seeing "messages" from Psalms about how people should send a certain sum of money (right now!) the Spirit says, and to claim your miracle. It is from this program and those preachers that Kenyans have learned and perfected the deal. Now those folk who used to go to mganga can do so in the comfort of the church.

[vooke]

Let me apologize. I think I hit split topic or someone else did. I don't like that function. I woke up convinced I had posted some reply only to miss them. I concluded I never posted the threads, sometimes I leave replies hanging...multitasking is not my forte

[vooke]

mya,
Paul was comparing a Christian vs a non-believer state in 'this world'. The non believer beats the believer hands down. It's that simple. Paul from this FACT, argues that there must be something more to Christianity than 'this world' otherwise it don't make sense being a Christian.

Remember the whole 15th chapter of First Corinthians is dedicated to resurrection. Paul was correcting a fatally erroneous notion that there is no resurrection. He is essentially asking, ' what's the purpose of Christianity if all we have is 'this world'[GIVEN YOU CLAIM THERE IS NO RESURRECTION, 'THIS WORLD' IS ALL WE HAVE] seeing we are actually worse off than than anybody else?'

Empirically, do Believers fare better health/wealth-wise? Look around you. If God meant Christians to be healthier and wealthier, it clearly is not working

As a preacher of the gospel, if I dangle this health &/ wealth carrot to non-believers,how do I retain them once these expectations are not met? They will be disillusioned and turn back. Note, I have nothing against health/wealth but I know too well this is not the primary nor secondary purpose for Christ dying for us. To suggest that they are is diluting the significance of the cross

TBN has done the most in propagating the Prosperity Myth. Ever watched their funds drive marathon?

Read this verse;
1 Cor 15:19 (HCSB)
 19 If we have put our hope in Christ for this life only, we should be pitied more than anyone

.

@vooke
You are misintepreting that verse.....I think where it says "for this life only"...it means if we base our hope in the current physical world only, then we should be pitied, because in christ we believe in the afterlife, or is it resurrection.......nothing about riches here.

And on what proof are you basing the claims that TBN is a scam? Are you then saying all those preachers who come there to spread the gospel are cons? It seems to me you have taken a stand on something and are looking for scriptures to support it however vague, ignoring all those that may be contary to your theory.......speaking as though you have some authority on the matter. Respect those who have gone before you. There is nothing wrong with giving especially if its for the purposes of spreading the gospel. TBN is the most worldwide reaching gopsel network and its costs money to run such a network. hiyo tuu.

@Kababe

When the bible says "give and it shall be given unto you", what does that mean? What are we giving, unto who?

[bittertruth]

mya,
Paul was comparing a Christian vs a non-believer state in 'this world'. The non believer beats the believer hands down. It's that simple. Paul from this FACT, argues that there must be something more to Christianity than 'this world' otherwise it don't make sense being a Christian.

Remember the whole 15th chapter of First Corinthians is dedicated to resurrection. Paul was correcting a fatally erroneous notion that there is no resurrection. He is essentially asking, ' what's the purpose of Christianity if all we have is 'this world'[GIVEN YOU CLAIM THERE IS NO RESURRECTION, 'THIS WORLD' IS ALL WE HAVE] seeing we are actually worse off than than anybody else?'

Empirically, do Believers fare better health/wealth-wise? Look around you. If God meant Christians to be healthier and wealthier, it clearly is not working

As a preacher of the gospel, if I dangle this health &/ wealth carrot to non-believers,how do I retain them once these expectations are not met? They will be disillusioned and turn back. Note, I have nothing against health/wealth but I know too well this is not the primary nor secondary purpose for Christ dying for us. To suggest that they are is diluting the significance of the cross

TBN has done the most in propagating the Prosperity Myth. Ever watched their funds drive marathon?

Read this verse;
1 Cor 15:19 (HCSB)
 19 If we have put our hope in Christ for this life only, we should be pitied more than anyone

.

@vooke
You are misintepreting that verse.....I think where it says "for this life only"...it means if we base our hope in the current physical world only, then we should be pitied, because in christ we believe in the afterlife, or is it resurrection.......nothing about riches here.

And on what proof are you basing the claims that TBN is a scam? Are you then saying all those preachers who come there to spread the gospel are cons? It seems to me you have taken a stand on something and are looking for scriptures to support it however vague, ignoring all those that may be contary to your theory.......speaking as though you have some authority on the matter. Respect those who have gone before you. There is nothing wrong with giving especially if its for the purposes of spreading the gospel. TBN is the most worldwide reaching gopsel network and its costs money to run such a network. hiyo tuu.

@Kababe

When the bible says "give and it shall be given unto you", what does that mean? What are we giving, unto who?

[bittertruth]

Kadame, vooke
Below are confessions by Joyce Meyer. I pray and hope that this is going to be an eye opener for you.

Joyce shares a list of confessions that remind herself of God's love and power. This have downloaded from link http://www.joycemeyer.org/articles/ea.aspx?article=list_of_confessions_by_joyce_meyer
 
I love all people, and I am loved by all people.

the working of miracles, discerning of spirits, the word of faithI am a giver. It is more blessed to give than to receive. I love to give! I have plenty of money to give away all the time.Pain cannot successfully come against my body because Jesus bore all my pain.As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he; therefore, all of my thoughts are positive.

I do not allow the devil to use my spirit as a garbage dump by meditating on negative things that he offers me.

I am a believer not a doubter.

No weapon that is formed against me shall prosper, but every tongue that rises against me in judgment, I shall show to be in the wrong.

I am slow to speak, quick to hear, and slow to anger.

I cast out devils and demons; nothing deadly can hurt me.

I never bind a sister or brother with the words of my mouth.

I am always a positive encouragement. I edify and build up; I never tear down or destroy.

I will cry to God Most High Who performs on my behalf and rewards me.

My son has a sweet personality, and he is not rebellious.



My children love to pray and study the Word. They openly and boldly praise God.

My children make right choices according to the Word of God.

I am an obedient wife, and no rebellion operates in me.

My husband is wise. He is the king and priest of our home. He makes Godly decisions.

I use my time wisely. All of my prayer and study time is wisely spent.

I walk in the spirit all of the time.

All that I own is paid for. I owe no man anything except to love him in Christ.

I love to bless people and spread the Gospel.

I am an intercessor.

I receive speaking engagements in person, by phone, and/or by mail every day.

My daughter operates in Godly wisdom and discipline, and she is full of energy.

I never get tired or grow weary when I study the Word, pray, minister, or praise God; but I am alert and full of energy. And as I study, I become more alert and more energized.

I will study the Word of God. I will pray.

I do not hate or walk in unforgiveness.

I do not fear. I am not guilty.

@Kababe

Again it says "give and it shall be given unto you" I want to stress the last part "given unto you". That scripture tells us somewthing will be given back to you, it can be anything, Gods love , mercey, money et cetera. When it says "it shall be given unto you", mans inclination is then to expect something back.....notice that nowhere do I say in kind, but the bible teaches us to expect, infact there is a verse where God says "test me....." cant remember which one. Point is I have no problem with prosperity gospel if it accomplishes Gods work. Infact I think Africa as whole need more of that prosperity gospel and maybe we may just get out of the poverty cycle that plagues that continent. Faith after all comes from hearing....If you hear it long enough, believe in it, then you can be it, you can achieve it... These preachers arent forcing anyone to give, they are asking and are talking about tried and tested methods for them, you may not fully agree with them, but I wont dismiss them at face value. I am not talking about those cons in Kenya who are asking people to pay for miracles. I am talking about  the Joel Osteen type of preachers, the Bishop jakes kind of preachers.....they know something we dont know, and its up to us to decide what we want to hear and want we dont want to hear.

If it does not say in "in kind", as you admit, then what gives these preachers the gall to tell people to expect a car, or a house, or money? I do like Joel Osteen and I've never heard him tell anybody that if he plants a seed aka money, a car and a house are on the way. In fact, the "seeds" he talks about are always acts of kindness to others, forgiveness, letting go of stuff we lose, trust in God etc etc. I have NEVER heard him ask for money from anyone. Not even once. And then promise that if you give him the money, your wildest dreams will come true. Joyce Meyer too. Never heard her dedicate even one single sermon to "planting a seed" in her church, She's always teaching about how to live your life as a Christian in every day life, the proper attitude to have, trust in God, not being focused on yourself but those around you etc etc I don't like African american preachers coz of all their dramatics/threatics so dont listen much to Bishop TD Jakes, but my mother does and I don't recall hearing him dedicate sermons to "planting a seed". But on TBN, they have this week for raising money, where all manner of preachers come on, kina Rod parsley and Jessee Duplantis and sijui who and they start seeing "messages" from Psalms about how people should send a certain sum of money (right now!) the Spirit says, and to claim your miracle. It is from this program and those preachers that Kenyans have learned and perfected the deal. Now those folk who used to go to mganga can do so in the comfort of the church.

[vooke]

bittertruth,
Do you know Jesus resurrected a 4 days dead Lazarus in the midst of doubt from the relatives,neighbors and even disciples?

Where did you get the idea that you armed with scriptures and faith are a demigod?
God works,heals and blesses whoever, whenever and wherever He wills.

Is there health and wealth outside Christianity?

Matthew 5:45 King James Version (KJV)
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

[bittertruth]

vooke,
Having health and wealth or lack thereof depends on size of your faith.
The question should rather be "Is there wealth and health in Christianity" and the answer would be Yes, because everyone receives based on their faith.

I believe that what I confess, I possess

I confess, my God shall supply all my need Phil. 4: 19; I possess the supply of every need.

I confess, by His stripes I am healed Is. 53:5; I possess healing.

bittertruth,
Do you know Jesus resurrected a 4 days dead Lazarus in the midst of doubt from the relatives,neighbors and even disciples?

Where did you get the idea that you armed with scriptures and faith are a demigod?
God works,heals and blesses whoever, whenever and wherever He wills.

Is there health and wealth outside Christianity?

Matthew 5:45 King James Version (KJV)
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

[vooke]

bittertruth,
The primitive Christians suffered immense poverty and as a result, Paul collected offerings for the saints in Jerusalem virtually from all the places he toured. You are implying
1. That they had less faith than say yourself
2.That Paul correctly diagnosed their problem; poverty but prescribed charity INSTEAD of faith

Negro you are either ignorant or full of yourself by insinuating that poor & sickly Christians are faithless

vooke,
Having health and wealth or lack thereof depends on size of your faith.
The question should rather be "Is there wealth and health in Christianity" and the answer would be Yes, because everyone receives based on their faith.

I believe that what I confess, I possess

I confess, my God shall supply all my need Phil. 4: 19; I possess the supply of every need.

I confess, by His stripes I am healed Is. 53:5; I possess healing.

[mya88]

As a preacher of the gospel, if I dangle this health &/ wealth carrot to non-believers,how do I retain them once these expectations are not met? They will be disillusioned and turn back.

@vooke

Bitter Truth has already addressed this bit and true to form you try to flip it around referring him to a demigod. As a preacher your first priority shouldnt be dangling health/wealth carrot to your congregation....but if you do and it backfires, you only have yourself to blame. And who told you that you were the keeper of Gods children...all you have to do is spread the gospel, and let God do his job.

That verse "seek you first the kingdom of God, and his rightouseness and ALL THESE THINGS shall be addedd unto you." What exactly does ALL THESE THINGS"  include pastor? Propserity and gospel are not mutually exclusive..... encouraging believers to have faith that the desires of ther hearts will be fullfilled. Why are you so doubtful. I have been around church my whole life, and growing up I always wondered why the believers...at least most of them where wallowing in poverty? Its like most had accepted that that was how their fate in this life was supposed to be....well, now I know the devil is a liar......you can be a christian and have health, wealth and "ALL THESE THINGS."

As for TBN, fund driving is not all they do, they also have reached a lot of people world wide who would otherwise not have any access to the gospel, so you can choose to just look at the negative.

[GeeMail]

By rich I suppose you mean worldly riches (financial wealth and property). Obviously its not a sin. However, Jesus was not a rich man. Worldly riches if not ill-gotten can facilitate ministry. However it may be as difficult as a camel going through the eye of the needle.
I'm personally opposed to the prosperity gospel. It nullifies the spiritual education believers get from suffering. In my short life so far, I can testify that poorer people listen to God more than the rich.

I Tim6
6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9 Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
11 But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

17 Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.

[vooke]

mya88,
Looks like the Primitive/Early  church missed this memo on 'ALL THESE THINGS', they were mighty poor.


Romans 15:26 (ESV)
am going to Jerusalem bringing aid to the saints. 26 For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make some contribution for the poor among the saints at Jerusalem.

Galatians 2:10 (ESV)
10 Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.
Nobody said wealth and gospel are mutually exclusive, I just don't or can't see promotion of health/wealth as a primary,secondary or even tertiary consequence of the gospel of our Lord Jesus. What we have on these topics are common sense principles such as hardwork, creativity, education,honesty and so forth

What is undeniable is,Christians at no point in time have NEVER fared better than non-Christians anywhere exclusively as a result of their faith. They fall sick even today, they are equally likely to be broke