kamwana's Presence Is Required

[MOON Ki]

Is that so, Omollo?   As long as people want to advise the ICC on what works and what doesn't let us consider this one, in the Bemba matters.

In November 2013, the court issued arrest warrants for four people (and Bemba) for Article 70 offences, same thing Barasa is charged with.   All 4 were arrested within a few weeks.   One of them decided to take the Barasa path and make appeals to his country's (France's) legal system that he not be handed over.  Within 3 or so months, he has gone as far as he could and the courts order that he be handed over.    As I write this, all four are playing ping-pong in the Hague Detention Centre, and their confirmation hearings will be starting soon.

http://www.icc-cpi.int/en_menus/icc/situations%20and%20cases/situations/situation%20icc%200105/related%20cases/ICC-0105-0113/Pages/default.aspx

There seems to be the mistaken (in my view) belief that the point of the warrant was merely so that he could "spill the beans".   There also seems to be the equally mistaken (in my view) belief that Barasa's troubles end when Ruto's case ends.   Far from it.   Take a look at the history of such offences, that in the past the court let people get away with them, the various discussions on such ... it was coming.    Barasa is the "prototype", and I doubt that the OTP will not let him the hook; my guess is that they will simply wait for as long as it takes the Kenyan courts to make a decision.   Barasa should just have surrendered and cooperated.   

[vooke]

Do you think he is being 'protected' from appearance by the powers that be?

Is that so, Omollo?   As long as people want to advise the ICC on what works and what doesn't let us consider this one, in the Bemba matters.

In November 2013, the court issued arrest warrants for four people (and Bemba) for Article 70 offences, same thing Barasa is charged with.   All 4 were arrested within a few weeks.   One of them decided to take the Barasa path and make appeals to his country's (France's) legal system that he not be handed over.  Within 3 or so months, he has gone as far as he could and the courts order that he be handed over.    As I write this, all four are playing ping-pong in the Hague Detention Centre, and their confirmation hearings will be starting soon.

http://www.icc-cpi.int/en_menus/icc/situations%20and%20cases/situations/situation%20icc%200105/related%20cases/ICC-0105-0113/Pages/default.aspx

There seems to be the mistaken (in my view) belief that the point of the warrant was merely so that he could "spill the beans".   There also seems to be the equally mistaken (in my view) belief that Barasa's troubles end when Ruto's case ends.   Far from it.   Take a look at the history of such offences, that in the past the court let people get away with them, the various discussions on such ... it was coming.    Barasa is the "prototype", and I doubt that the OTP will not let him the hook; my guess is that they will simply wait for as long as it takes the Kenyan courts to make a decision.   Barasa should just have surrendered and cooperated.   

[RV Pundit]

They've already failed in 2 of the 3 stated objective of warrants. They wanted Baraza arrested quickly so he can stop meddling with witness. That has not happened. Secondly they wanted the arrest to include any seizure of computers/telephones/evidence/etc from Baraza over witness tampering. That too has failed. What is remaining is pre-trial of Baraza once he is finally arrested and handed over to ICC.

I think the idea was to get him out of kenya.....say in UG or Rwanda..where he wouldn't enjoy constitutional rights to challenge his arrest...like he is doing now. That didn't work out.

There is huge difference btw countries..ICC can do all it want in bush country like Congo or dictatorship like UG or Rwanda..but in kenya they've to go thro the motions. Baraza might even eventually disappear to thin air or a country without any extradition deal with ICC...which is about half the countries in the world..including US of A.

Is that so, Omollo?   As long as people want to advise the ICC on what works and what doesn't let us consider this one, in the Bemba matters.

In November 2013, the court issued arrest warrants for four people (and Bemba) for Article 70 offences, same thing Barasa is charged with.   All 4 were arrested within a few weeks.   One of them decided to take the Barasa path and make appeals to his country's (France's) legal system that he not be handed over.  Within 3 or so months, he has gone as far as he could and the courts order that he be handed over.    As I write this, all four are playing ping-pong in the Hague Detention Centre, and their confirmation hearings will be starting soon.

http://www.icc-cpi.int/en_menus/icc/situations%20and%20cases/situations/situation%20icc%200105/related%20cases/ICC-0105-0113/Pages/default.aspx

There seems to be the mistaken (in my view) belief that the point of the warrant was merely so that he could "spill the beans".   There also seems to be the equally mistaken (in my view) belief that Barasa's troubles end when Ruto's case ends.   Far from it.   Take a look at the history of such offences, that in the past the court let people get away with them, the various discussions on such ... it was coming.    Barasa is the "prototype", and I doubt that the OTP will not let him the hook; my guess is that they will simply wait for as long as it takes the Kenyan courts to make a decision.   Barasa should just have surrendered and cooperated.   

[MOON Ki]

RV Pundit wrote:

"I think the idea was to get him out of kenya.....say in UG or Rwanda..where he wouldn't enjoy constitutional rights to challenge his arrest...like he is doing now. That didn't work out.  There is huge difference btw countries..ICC can do all it want in bush country like Congo or dictatorship like UG or Rwanda..but in kenya"

Bush countries, eh?  That's an interesting theory when put against the fact that the four in the Bemba case were arrested in European countries in which they enjoy plenty of legal rights and in fact are right trying to get the ICC to conditionally release them to the supervision of those countries. 

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

They've already failed in 2 of the 3 stated objective of warrants. They wanted Baraza arrested quickly so he can stop meddling with witness. That has not happened. Secondly they wanted the arrest to include any seizure of computers/telephones/evidence/etc from Baraza over witness tampering. That too has failed. What is remaining is pre-trial of Baraza once he is finally arrested and handed over to ICC.

I think the idea was to get him out of kenya.....say in UG or Rwanda..where he wouldn't enjoy constitutional rights to challenge his arrest...like he is doing now. That didn't work out.

There is huge difference btw countries..ICC can do all it want in bush country like Congo or dictatorship like UG or Rwanda..but in kenya they've to go thro the motions. Baraza might even eventually disappear to thin air or a country without any extradition deal with ICC...which is about half the countries in the world..including US of A.

Is that so, Omollo?   As long as people want to advise the ICC on what works and what doesn't let us consider this one, in the Bemba matters.

In November 2013, the court issued arrest warrants for four people (and Bemba) for Article 70 offences, same thing Barasa is charged with.   All 4 were arrested within a few weeks.   One of them decided to take the Barasa path and make appeals to his country's (France's) legal system that he not be handed over.  Within 3 or so months, he has gone as far as he could and the courts order that he be handed over.    As I write this, all four are playing ping-pong in the Hague Detention Centre, and their confirmation hearings will be starting soon.

http://www.icc-cpi.int/en_menus/icc/situations%20and%20cases/situations/situation%20icc%200105/related%20cases/ICC-0105-0113/Pages/default.aspx

There seems to be the mistaken (in my view) belief that the point of the warrant was merely so that he could "spill the beans".   There also seems to be the equally mistaken (in my view) belief that Barasa's troubles end when Ruto's case ends.   Far from it.   Take a look at the history of such offences, that in the past the court let people get away with them, the various discussions on such ... it was coming.    Barasa is the "prototype", and I doubt that the OTP will not let him the hook; my guess is that they will simply wait for as long as it takes the Kenyan courts to make a decision.   Barasa should just have surrendered and cooperated.   

This is a fallacy repeated over without much thought.  The only reason ICC is having issues in Kenya is that it's the only country where they happen to have a government opposed to them. 

This would have probably turned out different had kamwana and Muthaura not been on the list of the accused.  If they were to target Kagame's son, chances are they would have go to through the same hoops.

It just comes down to government obstructionism. 

[RV Pundit]

Kenya is middle of bush country and europe. Europe and countries with working judicial system would have long dismissed Baraza case on lack of juridisction. In Congo[am assuming it worse than kenya] a gov appointed judge would have rule for the rebel to send on the next flight to ICC. Kenya is queer country where judiciary is seemingly independent but it dogged by huge backlog..and lots of loopholes...that Baraza will exploit fully.

Bush countries, eh?  That's an interesting theory when put against the fact that the four in the Bemba case were arrested in European countries in which they enjoy plenty of legal rights and in fact are right trying to get the ICC to conditionally release them to the supervision of those countries. 

[RV Pundit]

That would mean Moi or Kibaki era. I think our judiciary is fairly independent now; albeit still corrupt; the problem really is the backlog; if you go to court now; the case dates for 2016 are filled up;

Gov has not obstructed on Baraza case. The warrants were relayed without delay from AG to Kimaiyo. Kimaiyo followed ICC act and went to High court to have them issue court order for enforce warrants. And Baraza went to court.

Baraza lost in high court and appealed. He will lose in court of appeal. And supreme court. He lacks the locus standi...he need to argue his case before ICC judges. What he will do is to buy time. He might decide to start another case in high court...before a stupid or corrupt judge..who will entertain it..enter stay order and have the case mentioned in 2018...adjourned as the guy is transferred in 2019..and finally the case will be heard and determined in 2022..and that is kenya for you.

There is nothing gov could have done except to illegally spirit Baraza away without following the procedure set by ICC act of 2008.

This is a fallacy repeated over without much thought.  The only reason ICC is having issues in Kenya is that it's the only country where they happen to have a government opposed to them. 

This would have probably turned out different had kamwana and Muthaura not been on the list of the accused.  If they were to target Kagame's son, chances are they would have go to through the same hoops.

It just comes down to government obstructionism. 

[MOON Ki]

RV Pundit wrote:

"Europe and countries with working judicial system would have long dismissed Baraza case on lack of juridisction."

How so?   Please explain that one to me.   I'll then put your explanation against the situation w.r.t. countries where the Bemba four were arrested.    (I assume we can consider the judicial systems of France, Belgium, and the Netherlands as "working" ones.)

[RV Pundit]

Well our high courts have wide jurisdiction over any issue concerning the human rights of any citizen...so on that basis they entertained Baraza case...

It on that basis that Baraza has gone there...he think he will not get fair trial in ICC but on substantial issues..member state's domestic courts have no jurisdiction over ICC..

He is asking what judges cannot grant.

Part of his evidence details OTP misdeeds. But ICC is more than OTP...there are judges. There is really no way our courts can declare Baraza will not get fair trial...until he has gone through trial...which by then would again be too late..given Baraza might not be coming back.

RV Pundit wrote:

"Europe and countries with working judicial system would have long dismissed Baraza case on lack of juridisction."

How so?   Please explain that one to me.   I'll then put your explanation against the situation w.r.t. countries where the Bemba four were arrested.    (I assume we can consider the judicial systems of France, Belgium, and the Netherlands as "working" ones.)

[MOON Ki]

Pundit:

I initially misunderstood; I get you now.  Yes, you are right that serious courts would not even think of looking into Barasa's alleged tales of OTP misdeeds; that is not their place.   That is why the French court did not take long with that guy, and he too had good stories. 

[Omollo]

The one weakness that the Kenyan judiciary has yet to fix is willful laziness, dilly-dallying, pussy footing or procrastination... all within a degree and a half of perverseness. In other words it is so well done that you really have no one person or group you can blame or hold to account. Whether a delay or some other act, the events appear natural enough to be dismissed or blamed on something mundane like "backlog" etc. Yet you know there is a force at work.

Barasa is clearly playing ping ping in the Kenyan judiciary. I don't know how to treat it.... The mark of a good judiciary or proof of a rotten one.

One can say there is no possibility of such games in a controlled judiciary.... But then again we know of show trials and display suits as when Moi "allowed" Former Special Branch Deputy Boss Muriithi to file case after case before giving up and detaining him and putting an end to the "activism".

One can sue to kingdom come in the US - win some and lose some. But ultimately there is an end in sight when the road hits the wall.

[RV Pundit]

I call it kenya ujanja.Tying up straightforward issues in a legal maze.

The one weakness that the Kenyan judiciary has yet to fix is willful laziness, dilly-dallying, pussy footing or procrastination... all within a degree and a half of perverseness. In other words it is so well done that you really have no one person or group you can blame or hold to account. Whether a delay or some other act, the events appear natural enough to be dismissed or blamed on something mundane like "backlog" etc. Yet you know there is a force at work.

Barasa is clearly playing ping ping in the Kenyan judiciary. I don't know how to treat it.... The mark of a good judiciary or proof of a rotten one.

One can say there is no possibility of such games in a controlled judiciary.... But then again we know of show trials and display suits as when Moi "allowed" Former Special Branch Deputy Boss Muriithi to file case after case before giving up and detaining him and putting an end to the "activism".

One can sue to kingdom come in the US - win some and lose some. But ultimately there is an end in sight when the road hits the wall.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

The general understanding is that kamwana is required to attend the court session.  They want to smell his sweat, breath and flatulence in the courtroom.  His lawyers would already have figured out the right thing to do.  I have no doubt that kamwana will do as instructed by the court.

Leaders of the flock are waking up to the same fact.

http://www.nation.co.ke/news/politics/Face-judges-in-ICC-allies-advise-Uhuru/-/1064/2472092/-/e7y4t6/-/index.html