Sudan's ex-president Omar al-Bashir headed for the Hague

[Kadudu]

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Our warlords be warned. A new regime might just resurrect old cases. Best cling to power till your last breath.

https://www.nation.co.ke/news/africa/Sudan-to-hand-Omar-al-Bashir-over-to-ICC-/1066-5451924-f01iiw/index.html

[Garliv]

This is the worst decision ever. Once you start handling over or charging your leaders once they leave power, then it will never stop. Better behave and do like Kibaki did. Let the dethroned leader retire in peace. Focus on developing and reforming the country but correcting mistakes.
This cycle will never end in Sudan once it starts.

Also i researched quite a bit about Omar Bashir alleged crimes at the ICC. They based on purely exaggerated and made up stories about what happened in Darfur Region. Actors such as Clooney had their minute of sounding intelligent.

This is wrong. And it will not end. So why should the next leader or the current retire?

Our warlords be warned. A new regime might just resurrect old cases. Best cling to power till your last breath.

https://www.nation.co.ke/news/africa/Sudan-to-hand-Omar-al-Bashir-over-to-ICC-/1066-5451924-f01iiw/index.html

[Nefertiti]

Darfur was a Wagalla scenario much worse than Kenya PEV. Those Janjaweed were state militia. If he didn't eliminate witnesses he is cooked. Not sure how it is wrong to surrender killers to ICC. That is the right thing to do. Persecuting innocent folks for power is unforgivable.

[patel]

Precisely. Africans are tired of turning the other cheek. Just because moi got away with murder should not be a template of how to deal with crimes against humanity. Let Bashir has his day in court if he is not guilty he will be acquitted. I doubt Clooney will be a state witness.

Darfur was a Wagalla scenario much worse than Kenya PEV. Those Janjaweed were state militia. If he didn't eliminate witnesses he is cooked. Not sure how it is wrong to surrender killers to ICC. That is the right thing to do. Persecuting innocent folks for power is unforgivable.

[Garliv]

No it wasn't. And whether you prosecute Bashir or not Sudan still has a lots of issue. Pray that another section of Sudan doesn't get embittered by his perceived persecution. The current military leaders want to endear themselves to the West. Hoping to get aid and whatever. They won't. Just like Gaddafi wrongly thought cooperating with duplicitous, greedy and unprincipled West they would leave him alone and let Libya be, these Sudanese Junta will soon find how wrong they are.

It's very wrong to always think that African or Arab leaders wake up one day and decide to kill and maim as blood thirsty vampires. There is always a context why things are the way they are.
The same standards (generalisations) aren't used when US/Nato gang decide to rain bombs and invade countries.

There are people and some countries who wanted, and still want, Darfur secede from Sudan. Others have their motives. Even those handing over Bashir hawana bahati. Soon or later things will get worse.

Darfur was a Wagalla scenario much worse than Kenya PEV. Those Janjaweed were state militia. If he didn't eliminate witnesses he is cooked. Not sure how it is wrong to surrender killers to ICC. That is the right thing to do. Persecuting innocent folks for power is unforgivable.

[Garliv]

ICC is not a genuine court. It's a kangaroo court. The worst ever one can imagine. Even US doesn't recognise it and have threatened countries reluctant to sign bilateral agreements that they won't ever hand over Americans to the ICC. They actually sanctioned Bensouda (ICC Prosecutor) when she claimed to launch investigation into American crimes. Israel too. And others.

So it's impossible to prove yourself innocent or guilty: its a fix!

Precisely. Africans are tired of turning the other cheek. Just because moi got away with murder should not be a template of how to deal with crimes against humanity. Let Bashir has his day in court if he is not guilty he will be acquitted. I doubt Clooney will be a state witness.

Darfur was a Wagalla scenario much worse than Kenya PEV. Those Janjaweed were state militia. If he didn't eliminate witnesses he is cooked. Not sure how it is wrong to surrender killers to ICC. That is the right thing to do. Persecuting innocent folks for power is unforgivable.

[Nefertiti]

I can think of a few reasons ICC is great, off the top of my head: Bosco Ntaganda, Charles Taylor, Laurent Gbagbo, Slobodan Milosevic. Jean-Pierre Bemba untangled himself in a couple of years. Uhuru and Ruto had a few sleepless nights but got off with a warning. Now they will think long and hard before hedging Wanjiku's life on their bloody ambitions.

Who cares if Obama and Blair have immunity? At least they don't butcher their own citizens.

ICC is not a genuine court. It's a kangaroo court. The worst ever one can imagine. Even US doesn't recognise it and have threatened countries reluctant to sign bilateral agreements that they won't ever hand over Americans to the ICC. They actually sanctioned Bensouda (ICC Prosecutor) when she claimed to launch investigation into American crimes. Israel too. And others.

So it's impossible to prove yourself innocent or guilty: its a fix!

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Darfur was a Wagalla scenario much worse than Kenya PEV. Those Janjaweed were state militia. If he didn't eliminate witnesses he is cooked. Not sure how it is wrong to surrender killers to ICC. That is the right thing to do. Persecuting innocent folks for power is unforgivable.

Actually Wagalla was a picnic.  Darfur was a mini-Rwanda.  I can’t bring myself to feel sorry for people like Barshir.  The world is a better place without them.  Even if they are being fixed.

[RV Pundit]

That how it works..ICC can now have Bashir.

[Arcadian_Dreamer]

No it wasn't. And whether you prosecute Bashir or not Sudan still has a lots of issue. Pray that another section of Sudan doesn't get embittered by his perceived persecution. The current military leaders want to endear themselves to the West. Hoping to get aid and whatever. They won't. Just like Gaddafi wrongly thought cooperating with duplicitous, greedy and unprincipled West they would leave him alone and let Libya be, these Sudanese Junta will soon find how wrong they are.

It's very wrong to always think that African or Arab leaders wake up one day and decide to kill and maim as blood thirsty vampires. There is always a context why things are the way they are.
The same standards (generalisations) aren't used when US/Nato gang decide to rain bombs and invade countries.

There are people and some countries who wanted, and still want, Darfur secede from Sudan. Others have their motives. Even those handing over Bashir hawana bahati. Soon or later things will get worse.

Darfur was a Wagalla scenario much worse than Kenya PEV. Those Janjaweed were state militia. If he didn't eliminate witnesses he is cooked. Not sure how it is wrong to surrender killers to ICC. That is the right thing to do. Persecuting innocent folks for power is unforgivable.

You hit the nail on the head. If they hand over Bashir it will open a can of worms. I pray they don't hand him over to that western kangaroo court.

[Kadudu]

Why did you not defend Akashas as they were handed over illegally by Kenya govt to another "western kangaroo court" in NYC?
Let Bashir go rot in Europe. I can assure you he prefers that than his current residential address.

You hit the nail on the head. If they hand over Bashir it will open a can of worms. I pray they don't hand him over to that western kangaroo court.

[Nefertiti]

Even for impoverishing the Sudan alone Bashir deserves to be locked up.

[Garliv]

1. You should care whether Blair, Obama Bush or whoever have immunity from ICC harassment. Because it's supposed to be an international court and if it excuses the powerful then it becomes nothing more but a colonial outfit to punish the dark skinned idiots. Everyone should care unless their interests are just "victor's justice..
" Or the Might makes it Right.

2. Of all those you mention i can pinpoint which geopolitics were at work. But am sure you aint interested in such details. For example Bgabo was championing for eradication of French Central Bank control of its colonies finances. Quarttara disputed election results like Raila and in the resulting prearranged uprising the French Army directly intervened. And Milosevic was tried by another Kangaroo court ICTY- International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia. Which was set out to selectively punish Serbs by US/Nato especially when they were full of themselves that Russians couldn't challenge them.

3. What do you mean "they don't butcher their own citizens?" So one is free to butcher on a large scale in some foreign country without consequences? You have believed mainstream buzzwords and slogans without critical analysis.

4. You lie to yourself if you think by charging Ruto and Uhuru such a thing cannot happen again in Kenya. If conditions dictates then nothing like ICC intervening would matter. That's a fact. Just look they turned whole thing into political alliance which shaped Kenyan politics. Now if Uhuru/Raila scheme for Ruto to be charged at the Hague as Ruto himself revealed then even the ground will be worse. A grudge that would last generations would be created. What kind of justice would that be?

5. I have attached some links which should give you an overview of the other side of Darfur narrative.
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2009/04/the-false-darfur-genocide-numbers.html

http://www.allthingspass.com/uploads/html-264THE%20WINTER%20OF%20BASHIRS%20DISCONTENT.htm

https://dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/the-us%e2%80%99s-war-in-darfur/

I can think of a few reasons ICC is great, off the top of my head: Bosco Ntaganda, Charles Taylor, Laurent Gbagbo, Slobodan Milosevic. Jean-Pierre Bemba untangled himself in a couple of years. Uhuru and Ruto had a few sleepless nights but got off with a warning. Now they will think long and hard before hedging Wanjiku's life on their bloody ambitions.

Who cares if Obama and Blair have immunity? At least they don't butcher their own citizens.

[Garliv]

I did. And believe that to be the most idiotic thing Uhuru could ever sanction. He himself was taken to some foreign court, and he dares extradite Akashas to the US without procedures or anything. Just handing them over like some cabbages. This was wrong. It's wrong. Idiotic. Unthinking!
What kind of a president brags that he handed over his citizens to face trial in some foreign country!? He himself may find himself facing that fate. His case at ICC was put on hold as Kangaroo court wait for further evidence.

Why did you not defend Akashas as they were handed over illegally by Kenya govt to another "western kangaroo court" in NYC?
Let Bashir go rot in Europe. I can assure you he prefers that than his current residential address.

You hit the nail on the head. If they hand over Bashir it will open a can of worms. I pray they don't hand him over to that western kangaroo court.

[Kadudu]

It seems you have fallen for Ruto's theatrics. Ruto is not an angel and he knows what he did in 2007 and thereafter. Ruto was covered by the state machinery just as it did the same for his former pal Uhuru. Nobody needs to take Ruto to the ICC as his actions will betray him. Looting from public coffers as if there is no tomorrow will not bring him happiness in life. He is a young man and may have many years here on earth. He should tread very carefully.

4. You lie to yourself if you think by charging Ruto and Uhuru such a thing cannot happen again in Kenya. If conditions dictates then nothing like ICC intervening would matter. That's a fact. Just look they turned whole thing into political alliance which shaped Kenyan politics. Now if Uhuru/Raila scheme for Ruto to be charged at the Hague as Ruto himself revealed then even the ground will be worse. A grudge that would last generations would be created. What kind of justice would that be?

[KenyanPlato]

Ruto is being shipped. Uhuru made a deal with americans

[Arcadian_Dreamer]

Why did you not defend Akashas as they were handed over illegally by Kenya govt to another "western kangaroo court" in NYC?
Let Bashir go rot in Europe. I can assure you he prefers that than his current residential address.

You hit the nail on the head. If they hand over Bashir it will open a can of worms. I pray they don't hand him over to that western kangaroo court.

I'm against sending people to western kangaroo courts as a principal. They have no right to judge us. Bashir should be quartered and hanged as far as I'm concerned but a Sudanese or an african court should try him.

[Nefertiti]

All those are ok points. The big distinction between western and African leaders - is the westerners act in the national interest. Africans act in the personal interest. As you can see Gbagbo was already out of power by the time they handed him over for trial same as Taylor - the French don't need the ICC to impose their will. But the deterrent effect of justice is very significant .- you are wrong there. Most strongmen enjoy impunity in their own countries so there is a good reason to celebrate a court outside their control and with a track record of long incarcerations. Better, none of the killers like Kagame or Kabila can dream of retiring to the west. Their refuge is reduced to Africa and parts of Asia. You get to put up with the outcome of your actions.

1. You should care whether Blair, Obama Bush or whoever have immunity from ICC harassment. Because it's supposed to be an international court and if it excuses the powerful then it becomes nothing more but a colonial outfit to punish the dark skinned idiots. Everyone should care unless their interests are just "victor's justice..
" Or the Might makes it Right.

2. Of all those you mention i can pinpoint which geopolitics were at work. But am sure you aint interested in such details. For example Bgabo was championing for eradication of French Central Bank control of its colonies finances. Quarttara disputed election results like Raila and in the resulting prearranged uprising the French Army directly intervened. And Milosevic was tried by another Kangaroo court ICTY- International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia. Which was set out to selectively punish Serbs by US/Nato especially when they were full of themselves that Russians couldn't challenge them.

3. What do you mean "they don't butcher their own citizens?" So one is free to butcher on a large scale in some foreign country without consequences? You have believed mainstream buzzwords and slogans without critical analysis.

4. You lie to yourself if you think by charging Ruto and Uhuru such a thing cannot happen again in Kenya. If conditions dictates then nothing like ICC intervening would matter. That's a fact. Just look they turned whole thing into political alliance which shaped Kenyan politics. Now if Uhuru/Raila scheme for Ruto to be charged at the Hague as Ruto himself revealed then even the ground will be worse. A grudge that would last generations would be created. What kind of justice would that be?

5. I have attached some links which should give you an overview of the other side of Darfur narrative.
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2009/04/the-false-darfur-genocide-numbers.html

http://www.allthingspass.com/uploads/html-264THE%20WINTER%20OF%20BASHIRS%20DISCONTENT.htm

https://dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/the-us%e2%80%99s-war-in-darfur/

[Garliv]

Ruto ain't an angel. No one is. His role in PEV is a matter of public records, speculation, rumours and what have you. And so is Uhuru role too. Plus RAO too. No one is an angel.

But this is where you have Africans going to all extremes to get power or eliminate their political opponents. That's what happening. That now Kenya "will cooperate with ICC and provide further evidence that only seem to implicate Ruto." That's what "taking Ruto to the Hague" is all about.
And no, am not falling for Ruto's theatrics. Kimani Ngunjiri was angry with Uhuru for "allegedly mistreating Ruto" and he said that ICC Investigators are here (Kenya) and that he's talking to them. He has had his licensed guns taken away from him. Plus his security. And he cried on Kikuyu Radio that his life is in danger then he was just given blackout. You know Fixing can be both ways!!
My point, ICC agents are around. Have been around the country. And some idiots think they can "assist them" to nail someone. This ain't a conspiracy theory. Its seriously on the agenda.

And if you catch my drift I keep saying ICC is a political court not a court of justice. They don't even have to be around the country for someone to "fix and handover someone..."

Expect tumultuous year.

It seems you have fallen for Ruto's theatrics. Ruto is not an angel and he knows what he did in 2007 and thereafter. Ruto was covered by the state machinery just as it did the same for his former pal Uhuru. Nobody needs to take Ruto to the ICC as his actions will betray him. Looting from public coffers as if there is no tomorrow will not bring him happiness in life. He is a young man and may have many years here on earth. He should tread very carefully.

[Garliv]

Your worldview is so Anglo (western) centric. For example Western leaders act in whose National Interests? Do you believe they act in African interests and not their own? You think they care ao much about African lives than African themselves?

Taylor VOLUNTARILY gave up power and voluntarily went into exile in Nigeria. This was after negotiations that ended Liberia/Sierra Leone conflict. George Bush wanted revenge on Taylor. He threatened Nigerian President (Obasanjo) that he would turn Nigeria into stone age if it didn't surrender Taylor. Obasanjo's VP (if my memory is right) was present when threat was issued. Is that what you call justice?

Gbagbo won election. His competitor protested the results and was helped by French and other to launch a rebel army to eject Gbagbo. And French Army was part of that rebel army. Once they bombed Gbagbo seat of power (like State House) they beat him up and his wife was raped and he was handed over to ICC.

You really don't appreciate how brutal these Wazungus are. And then you think ICC is fair?

NB: Taylor and Gbagbo are punished to be a lesson for any independent minded African leader.

NB: For Gbagbo even ICC Kangaroo Court couldn't find him guilty. But they kept him in custody nevertheless. Then he was "released" under certain conditions and he stays in Belgium. They don't want him back to Ivory Coast for he's still popular.

All those are ok points. The big distinction between western and African leaders - is the westerners act in the national interest. Africans act in the personal interest. As you can see Gbagbo was already out of power by the time they handed him over for trial same as Taylor - the French don't need the ICC to impose their will. But the deterrent effect of justice is very significant .- you are wrong there. Most strongmen enjoy impunity in their own countries so there is a good reason to celebrate a court outside their control and with a track record of long incarcerations. Better, none of the killers like Kagame or Kabila can dream of retiring to the west. Their refuge is reduced to Africa and parts of Asia. You get to put up with the outcome of your actions.