Author Topic: Jomo Kenyatta statue on new currency - what's nipate's take?  (Read 12509 times)

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Jomo Kenyatta statue on new currency - what's nipate's take?
« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2019, 10:54:19 PM »
This an open n shut case that will be overthrown by higher courts.Kenya do not want any image or likiness of anyone in their currency worst former presidents.What stop CBK looking for Ruto stone carving in 2022 and print that.No hero worship.These kind of symbolism matters.

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: Jomo Kenyatta statue on new currency - what's nipate's take?
« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2019, 11:28:32 PM »
Does the Jomo statue pass the bar of national symbol? that's the question.
♫♫ They say all good boys go to heaven... but bad boys bring heaven to you ~ song by Julia Michaels

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: Jomo Kenyatta statue on new currency - what's nipate's take?
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2019, 11:30:26 PM »
This an open n shut case that will be overthrown by higher courts.Kenya do not want any image or likiness of anyone in their currency worst former presidents.What stop CBK looking for Ruto stone carving in 2022 and print that.No hero worship.These kind of symbolism matters.

Ruto will never be president. We will have Jaramogi statue in 2023.
♫♫ They say all good boys go to heaven... but bad boys bring heaven to you ~ song by Julia Michaels

Offline vooke

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Re: Jomo Kenyatta statue on new currency - what's nipate's take?
« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2019, 06:29:14 PM »
Does the Jomo statue pass the bar of national symbol? that's the question.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: Jomo Kenyatta statue on new currency - what's nipate's take?
« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2019, 10:11:20 PM »
Does the Jomo statue pass the bar of national symbol? that's the question.

It was 2-3 pastor... the learned justices disagreed with you. They said Jomo statue is gazetted as part of KICC which is a national monument. I saw you claim they were intimidated :)
♫♫ They say all good boys go to heaven... but bad boys bring heaven to you ~ song by Julia Michaels

Offline vooke

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Re: Jomo Kenyatta statue on new currency - what's nipate's take?
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2019, 10:21:41 PM »
Does the Jomo statue pass the bar of national symbol? that's the question.

It was 2-3 pastor... the learned justices disagreed with you. They said Jomo statue is gazetted as part of KICC which is a national monument. I saw you claim they were intimidated :)

I don't know whether that decision is final and I'd need to go through their arguments but I'm saying when we said no portraits we meant no portraits whether they are on national monuments or not.

It's a terrible decision and they will pay for it in their careers
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: Jomo Kenyatta statue on new currency - what's nipate's take?
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2019, 10:36:21 PM »
Once you gazette a statue as a national symbol - does it violate the clause on no image of any individual? You can't read one clause to the exclusion of others.

And why will the judges pay with their careers? - because they disagreed with Omtata? :o
♫♫ They say all good boys go to heaven... but bad boys bring heaven to you ~ song by Julia Michaels

Offline Kadudu

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Re: Jomo Kenyatta statue on new currency - what's nipate's take?
« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2019, 12:22:16 PM »
Jomo will be very far from the 1000 notes come 2025. even Moi lived to see his potrait being removed from the Kenyan currency. Jomo will follow his path sooner than we think.

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Jomo Kenyatta statue on new currency - what's nipate's take?
« Reply #48 on: September 30, 2019, 12:29:10 PM »
The constitution is clear. Images or portrait of anyone in our currency is disallowed. Two judges basically refused to hear the case - terming it frivolous. That is strange. 1 judge disagreed that CBK had violated the law.

Once you gazette a statue as a national symbol - does it violate the clause on no image of any individual? You can't read one clause to the exclusion of others.

And why will the judges pay with their careers? - because they disagreed with Omtata? :o

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: Jomo Kenyatta statue on new currency - what's nipate's take?
« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2019, 01:45:59 PM »
The constitution is clear. Images or portrait of anyone in our currency is disallowed. Two judges basically refused to hear the case - terming it frivolous. That is strange. 1 judge disagreed that CBK had violated the law.

Once you gazette a statue as a national symbol - does it violate the clause on no image of any individual? You can't read one clause to the exclusion of others.

And why will the judges pay with their careers? - because they disagreed with Omtata? :o
We're back to Moi era judiciary of technicality rulings and screw substance.

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: Jomo Kenyatta statue on new currency - what's nipate's take?
« Reply #50 on: September 30, 2019, 05:24:54 PM »
Sorry guys I don't get it: wasn't the substanive case heard and determined? As in lawyers filed evidence, argued in court and the judges toured KICC. Then took a month to rule.  Where's the technicality?
♫♫ They say all good boys go to heaven... but bad boys bring heaven to you ~ song by Julia Michaels

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Jomo Kenyatta statue on new currency - what's nipate's take?
« Reply #51 on: September 30, 2019, 05:27:36 PM »
This is beyond your paygrade. Grab yourself Law 101 course near you. The are many stages in a court case. The first is called jurisdiction. The court while hearing the case..have to determine if they should be hearing it in the first place. Out of the 5 - I think 2 - said - this is the frivolous case we shouldn't hear - that is already 2-NIl (This is what Dear Mama is calling a technicality - the same way OKOA is being dealt that card in County Assembly - you don't actually debate but coz it's time-barred - it's mean it was rejected). The remaining 3 proceeded to hear the case. I think 2 rightly read the constitution and found CBK had violated it. One agreed with CBK that potrait was part of KICC landmark.
Sorry guys I don't get it: wasn't the substanive case heard and determined? As in lawyers filed evidence, argued in court and the judges toured KICC. Then took a month to rule.  Where's the technicality?

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: Jomo Kenyatta statue on new currency - what's nipate's take?
« Reply #52 on: September 30, 2019, 05:47:52 PM »
Sorry guys I don't get it: wasn't the substanive case heard and determined? As in lawyers filed evidence, argued in court and the judges toured KICC. Then took a month to rule.  Where's the technicality?
So you think if lawyers argue and evidence is tabled, somehow that magically prevents judges from disposing of cases from technical over substantive considerations? Do you think in Moi's days, those pro-gova rulings were made because lawyers failed to argue or evidence was somehow not tabled? You can easily discover for yourself what the distinction is. Right now, you seem to think ignoring substance means not following basic procedure or sthing.

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: Jomo Kenyatta statue on new currency - what's nipate's take?
« Reply #53 on: September 30, 2019, 07:34:19 PM »
I almost get it Kadame. Some cases are dismissed before any hearing - something about merit. Such cases don't get a 3-judge bench and take a very short time. Is this a literal dismissal? Please avoid the conjecture about intimidation for a moment. I want to understand what legally happened.
♫♫ They say all good boys go to heaven... but bad boys bring heaven to you ~ song by Julia Michaels

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: Jomo Kenyatta statue on new currency - what's nipate's take?
« Reply #54 on: September 30, 2019, 07:39:55 PM »
Pundit i didn't catch that. So out of initial 5 judges - 2 pulled out. Then 1 out the rest 3 ruled against Omtatata. The remainder 2 backed Omtata.

It says none of that in the news. Just that 2 of 3 judges dismissed the case. Feel free to school me.
♫♫ They say all good boys go to heaven... but bad boys bring heaven to you ~ song by Julia Michaels

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: Jomo Kenyatta statue on new currency - what's nipate's take?
« Reply #55 on: September 30, 2019, 09:32:44 PM »
I almost get it Kadame. Some cases are dismissed before any hearing - something about merit. Such cases don't get a 3-judge bench and take a very short time. Is this a literal dismissal? Please avoid the conjecture about intimidation for a moment. I want to understand what legally happened.
Robina, you're still making it about 'not following basic procedure'. It's just how when a judge wants to rule a certain way apriori, he can do it by emphasizing a minor issue over a more important one, like a game of ducking. In this case, using the minor issue (a mere technicality) of the gazettement of an image as a national symbol to skirt around a substantive constitutional prohibition of such images. Playing redefinition games about what a 'portrait' is. It's nothing fancy. People do it all the time in support of their favourite ideologies. For some reason, lots of lay people assume judges are somehow immune to these human biases and games. Yet we have entire academic traditions studying precisely how judges find a way to justify decisions they already committed to.

The intimidation is not silly conjecture: it comes from how plainly obvious it is what these judges do, and I knew it the moment i heard about this case. That's not a very comfortable position to be in and I'm sure the moment Uhuru is gone, these very same courts will completely rubbish any idea that you can get away from constitutional requirements by gazetting the prohibited stuff (and thereby simply declaring them constitutional by that mere act). In other words, it's doing the law by exploiting any and all loopholes rather than committing to its substantive aims: Our courts were masters of this in Moi's era and so we put it in the constitution that it's illegal to ignore substance in favour of technicalities. Yet, here we are.