I don't think corruption can stop a leader from delivering.

[RV Pundit]

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[Nefertiti]

You can find merits and demerits in anyone or anything. Even the local drunkard is otherwise always very friendly & social. As seen severally elsewhere on this blog - the empirical evidence does not agree with your position on corruption, borrow & build or "China model"; - Any number of things you quote as William Ruto's strengths are undermined by bigger, vicious vices or weaknesses he indulges. We can redux if you are in the mood.

No Pundit, corruption can and has stopped many leaders from delivering. Like the clannism-tribalism you noted on the Bashir thread, graft is a key reason for failed and stalled states.

[RV Pundit]

There are ways to measure for effectiveness - or say project output - or outcomes - we shouldn't debate the activities or the internals - unless we had bad output or outcomes. If a corrupt country was growing at 7% and non-corrupt at 7% - we can conclude corruption is no issue - ceteris peribus In short - we should always focus on the outcomes. What has somebody achieved. You can have non-corrupt lazy leader who doesn't do anything.

If we focus on the output - we stop endless debate about style or way of delivery - we focus on the deliverables.

You can find merits and demerits in anyone or anything. Even the local drunkard is otherwise always very friendly & social. As seen severally elsewhere on this blog - the empirical evidence does not agree with your position on corruption, borrow & build or "China model"; - Any number of things you quote as William Ruto's strengths are undermined by bigger, vicious vices or weaknesses he indulges. We can redux if you are in the mood.

No Pundit, corruption can and has stopped many leaders from delivering. Like the clannism-tribalism you noted on the Bashir thread, graft is a key reason for failed and stalled states.

[Kadudu]

 
Anyway at this rate we will place Uhuru as one leader who failed miserably when it comes to corruption. Even the prestige objects like SGR will not be marketable to the residents of Gatundu.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

If we restrict corruption to things like nepotism, conflict of interest, emoluments etc, then that might not have much of an effect, even though it still would by distorting the market.

What happens in Kenya is crude looting of public funds.  You have funds for a dam and someone moves it into his account.  In what universe does that not have a negative effect?  And this is actually the shit the hustler is defending.   In the middle of "the fight against corruption".

[Nefertiti]

There are ways to measure for effectiveness - or say project output - or outcomes - we shouldn't debate the activities or the internals - unless we had bad output or outcomes. If a corrupt country was growing at 7% and non-corrupt at 7% - we can conclude corruption is no issue - ceteris peribus In short - we should always focus on the outcomes. What has somebody achieved. You can have non-corrupt lazy leader who doesn't do anything.

If we focus on the output - we stop endless debate about style or way of delivery - we focus on the deliverables.

I am sure you would want to solely define the objects or outcomes. To be GDP or such. Well, here's a few things I said about corruption - the most malignant cancer - and its high priest.

UhuRuto have "leapfrogged" Kenya - from 6th to 2nd on Africa corrupt index. You see all kinds of growth metrics & parameters tossed about - no mention of the big param - called graft sector. Road accidents, dead patients, depleted env & drought, hunger. Even Westgate,Garissa Uni, Dussit attacks - were played by the insidious hand of corruption - as border post folks sell out their souls. Si hata wakubwa wanakula? The malignancy of corruption can be computed as exponential cost - to life, health, wealth, cohesion, peace, - ad nauseum. An open and shamelessly corrupt person has no place in leadership.

Yes glad you know this mashinani or "small-time" corruption is bad. I say it's dangerous and fatal. Now think of how we got there? - to insidious graft that every cop or borderman partakes? Of course it starts with the symbolic - when PORK like Moi carries cash in sacks - and dish out to school children to dance for him - that's where it leaked to the small man. TKK was Moi's greatest achievement. I posited earlier about the Kalenjin problem - of the raid culture - that makes them overtly corrupt. Ruto is baffled we don't want him to invest in heaven  - in church, funeral, harambee - what does that do to the ubiquitous or structural corruption that lets in al Shaabab? Or the traffic cop who lets through the wornout gas truck? Or the forest officer who allows wanton logging? Or the electoral officer who stokes PEV? Or the judge who jails the innocent "rapist"? Or the baron who imports cancer as sugar? Or the brewer who sells poison as liquor? Or you and I? Who has the moral authority to call them out - a modest or moneybag leader?

I am sure Kenyans want all those evils - that is why they want the rich politician. Let us know when you get it.

[Nefertiti]

Pundit might argue too if say road accidents or rape don't affect GDP significantly - we don't need to fight them. It's all about the outputs.

[Nefertiti]

This must be the Pundit Law of Zero-Sum Graft What about say folks who get cancer - after drinking mercury in their tea - am sure they don't mind graft so long as GDP is on the up-&-up.

[RV Pundit]

When corruption becames negative influence - it shows in the output. I am not saying we should encourage or abet corruption - but we should be wary of leaders like Raila who shout corruption and other ABSTRACT issues - and avoid tangible measurable (so-called SMART) outputs - for example tell us how many kilometers of tarmac you've put. Jubilee claim to be constructing more roads than all gov previous combined - they cannot do that with run-away corruption. They are connecting more people than - all 3 previous gov did. That cannot happen with run-away corruption.

In short the conversation need to change from abstract - hard to pin down issues (impunity, corruption, change,) into tangible outputs -

NASA and Raila avoid such structured conservations - because it their weakness. They should be arguing with Jubilee figures - whether the number of kms under construction are really that many - power connection - dams (Ruto claimed they've build 6,000 pans!!)

If we restrict corruption to things like nepotism, conflict of interest, emoluments etc, then that might not have much of an effect, even though it still would by distorting the market.

What happens in Kenya is crude looting of public funds.  You have funds for a dam and someone moves it into his account.  In what universe does that not have a negative effect?  And this is actually the shit the hustler is defending.   In the middle of "the fight against corruption".

[RV Pundit]

We elect leaders to fix real issues. Nobody is elected to go fight corruption. They are elected to provide jobs, economic opportunities, to fix infrastructures and to provide gov services. How that is done is details. Many countries including kenya have figured out how to strive with rampant corruption. China figured out how to thrive with dictatorship.

This must be the Pundit Law of Zero-Sum Graft What about say folks who get cancer - after drinking mercury in their tea - am sure they don't mind graft so long as GDP is on the up-&-up.

[Nefertiti]

William Ruto encourages and abets corruption - by serving as negative role model. The other thieves at least are mean or modest. Do you see our big bone with him?

When corruption becames negative influence - it shows in the output. I am not saying we should encourage or abet corruption - but we should be wary of leaders like Raila who shout corruption and other ABSTRACT issues - and avoid tangible measurable (so-called SMART) outputs - for example tell us how many kilometers of tarmac you've put. Jubilee claim to be constructing more roads than all gov previous combined - they cannot do that with run-away corruption. They are connecting more people than - all 3 previous gov did. That cannot happen with run-away corruption.

In short the conversation need to change from abstract - hard to pin down issues (impunity, corruption, change,) into tangible outputs -

NASA and Raila avoid such structured conservations - because it their weakness. They should be arguing with Jubilee figures - whether the number of kms under construction are really that many - power connection - dams (Ruto claimed they've build 6,000 pans!!)

If we restrict corruption to things like nepotism, conflict of interest, emoluments etc, then that might not have much of an effect, even though it still would by distorting the market.

What happens in Kenya is crude looting of public funds.  You have funds for a dam and someone moves it into his account.  In what universe does that not have a negative effect?  And this is actually the shit the hustler is defending.   In the middle of "the fight against corruption".

[RV Pundit]

So charity and fundraising - one of KEY REASON together with cooperative mvt why kenya is one of biggest non-mineral economy should be frawn upon and discouraged. Kenyans everyday are fundraising.

The Kenyattas are very rich and corrupt - but because they don't contribute money - they are clean or discourage corruption. Very rich.

Being mean or modest is anti-kenyan. It shows you've lost touch with reality. It why hustler nation is resonating. People like Raila, Uhuru or Gideon do not really know what it mean to be poor - most kenyans are fundraising daily - I can tell you I spend maybe 10% of my salary supporting all impossible to ignore charities.

Why don't these rich dynastic politicians contribute money anonymously - but we know most of them are so tight-fisted - they cannot even pay for lunch for someone else. It either upbringing in elite schools or something close to that.

I mean Gideon Moi lost RV MPS for FAILING TO FOOT LUNCH BILL in 2003. You father has stolen money lasting many generations - and you cannot even buy lunch. And you want people to support you because you have got a great name - a D- minus failure or drunkard.

Ruto and Sonko - are out there - helping - adopting kids - and footing bills - and spending their meagre money compared to Uhurus and Mois - and kenyans are saying these people we want - they've got the right "heart".

At least Mama Ngina is willing to cut a big check - for his sons  - once convinced - Moi could do the same - but Gideon would probably bank the money or play polo or casino with it.

Raila still blames Jaramogi generosity for the family poverty - so he swore never to be generous. Mps and leaders who follow Raila - have to fundraise to foot Odinga food and beer bills. He never buys anything. Mombasa arabs and johos long figured this - so they bought Raila's slaves (poor mombasa luos & luhyas) - by keeping tabs of all Raila expenses.

William Ruto encourages and abets corruption - by serving as negative role model. The other thieves at least are mean or modest. Do you see our big bone with him?

[Nefertiti]

The impact and cost of corruption is ABSOLUTE & EXPONENTIAL. Not abstract. In fact graft can be measured by SMARTER metrics. Ask Uhuru the PORK - his nephew & in-law died at Westgate - slaughtered like dogs - after corrupt bordermen let in al Shaabab - for 30 pieces of silver.

When corruption becames negative influence - it shows in the output. I am not saying we should encourage or abet corruption - but we should be wary of leaders like Raila who shout corruption and other ABSTRACT issues - and avoid tangible measurable (so-called SMART) outputs - for example tell us how many kilometers of tarmac you've put. Jubilee claim to be constructing more roads than all gov previous combined - they cannot do that with run-away corruption. They are connecting more people than - all 3 previous gov did. That cannot happen with run-away corruption.

In short the conversation need to change from abstract - hard to pin down issues (impunity, corruption, change,) into tangible outputs -

NASA and Raila avoid such structured conservations - because it their weakness. They should be arguing with Jubilee figures - whether the number of kms under construction are really that many - power connection - dams (Ruto claimed they've build 6,000 pans!!)

[RV Pundit]

That is stretching it. US and UK and France with zero corruption do get hit - right. A determined terrorist willing to die - will get past all security.

The impact and cost of corruption is ABSOLUTE & EXPONENTIAL. Not abstract. In fact graft can be measured by SMARTER metrics. Ask Uhuru the PORK - his nephew & in-law died at Westgate - slaughtered like dogs - after corrupt bordermen let in al Shaabab - for 30 pieces of silver.

[Nefertiti]

It baffles me when you say "Kenyans in their wisdom want corrupt politician". My obese niece wants a drum of candy - since when was Wanjiku the best arbitor of her own interest? I think we don't even agree on the meaning of leadership?

Nothing wrong with giving per se, but so long as the giver cannot account for the money, which is the case here. To me Kenyatta or Odinga or Moi are better role models - because they don't encourage & abet corruption - which is what Ruto's "generosity" does. Maajabu - that I have lost touch with reality - when your man says he's investing in heaven - as he donates loot in churches. You are actually sanctifying graft as Kenyan or African culture.

Not everything can be measured in "outcomes" - because that word itself is debatable. Say you have an AI - you can say the "outcome" is how powerful/intelligent it is - and forget the nuances of safety, etc. That's what Ruto's efficiency is - an unchecked power that build & destroy with no sense of sanity.

So charity and fundraising - one of KEY REASON together with cooperative mvt why kenya is one of biggest non-mineral economy should be frawn upon and discouraged. Kenyans everyday are fundraising.

The Kenyattas are very rich and corrupt - but because they don't contribute money - they are clean or encourage cleanest.

Being mean or modest is anti-kenyan. It shows you've lost touch with reality. It why hustler nation is resonating. People like Raila, Uhuru or Gideon do not really know what it mean to be poor - most kenyans are fundraising daily - I can tell you I spend maybe 10% of my salary supporting all impossible to ignore charities.

Why don't these rich dynastic politicians contribute money anonymously - but we know most of them are so tight-fisted - they cannot even pay for lunch for someone else. It either upbringing in elite schools or something close to that.

I mean Gideon Moi lost RV MPS for FAILING TO FOOT LUNCH BILLS in 2003. You father has stolen money lasting many generations - and you cannot even buy lunch.

Ruto and Sonko - are out there - helping - adopting kids - and footing bills - and spending their meagre money compared to Uhurus and Mois.

[RV Pundit]

You think by Ruto donating - he saying go steal money? How does that logic works? Everyone knows Kenyattas are dollar billionaires - and so are the Mois.Sonko get his criminal money - and donate. Ruto steals and donates. Uhuru steals and invest - and only spend during campaign. GM and Raila steal - and never invest in politics.

Everyone in Kenya knows all politicians are corrupt. That is why they elect Sonkos.

Tells us what you'll do for us....we know you're corrupt...steal but build us a road or church or a school...and we will reciprocate. That has been a message since 1960s.

Smart brilliant politicians like Ruto or Moi Snr or Sonkos - get the messages - and spend 10% of their loot - to reap even more. Their money is being re-invested smartly.

And idiot like Raila or GM - steal and become so tight-fisted - you'd think he is Bill Gates or Bezo - who worked for his money - and when politicians abandoned them - followed by the people - they shout Ruto is CORRUPT. REALLY NIGGER Ruto is Mashamba - for stealng 0.7 acre - while your fathers have 10,000 acres in Nairobi really Nigger.

Wait for hustle nation revolution. Hio Ujinga watu hawapendi. This is akin to ICC - Kibaki and Raila fight - share the spoils - and blame Uhuru & Ruto - and people could see the great injustice.  Despite ICC indictment - Kenyans shocked the world - and elected not 1 but a pair of ICC indicted people. The egg in ICC is yet to be wipped.

Now BIGGEST GENERATIONAL THIEVES are blaming Ruto for all Kenya corruptions -  and you think poor kenyans are also stupid.

It baffles me when you say "Kenyans in their wisdom want corrupt politician". My obese niece wants a drum of candy - since when was Wanjiku the best arbitor of her own interest? I think we don't even agree on the meaning of leadership?

Nothing wrong with giving per se, so long as the giver cannot account for the money, which is the case here. To me Kenyatta or Odinga or Moi are better role models - because they don't encourage & abet corruption - which is what Ruto's "generosity" does. Maajabu - that I have lost touch with reality - when your man says he's investing in heaven - as he donates loot in churches. You are actually sanctifying graft as Kenyan or African culture.

Not everything can be measured in "outcomes" - because that word itself is debatable. Say you have an AI - you can say the "outcome" is how powerful/intelligent it is - and forget the nuances of safety, etc. That's what Ruto's efficiency is - an unchecked power that build & destroy with no sense of sanity.

So charity and fundraising - one of KEY REASON together with cooperative mvt why kenya is one of biggest non-mineral economy should be frawn upon and discouraged. Kenyans everyday are fundraising.

The Kenyattas are very rich and corrupt - but because they don't contribute money - they are clean or encourage cleanest.

Being mean or modest is anti-kenyan. It shows you've lost touch with reality. It why hustler nation is resonating. People like Raila, Uhuru or Gideon do not really know what it mean to be poor - most kenyans are fundraising daily - I can tell you I spend maybe 10% of my salary supporting all impossible to ignore charities.

Why don't these rich dynastic politicians contribute money anonymously - but we know most of them are so tight-fisted - they cannot even pay for lunch for someone else. It either upbringing in elite schools or something close to that.

I mean Gideon Moi lost RV MPS for FAILING TO FOOT LUNCH BILLS in 2003. You father has stolen money lasting many generations - and you cannot even buy lunch.

Ruto and Sonko - are out there - helping - adopting kids - and footing bills - and spending their meagre money compared to Uhurus and Mois.

[Nefertiti]

Yes but not the Kenyan variety - starved goons with akala - who walk free in Nairobi with some spare change. That mashinani graft where you can smuggle anything, get IDs, access cards, etc, - rent apartment - with minimal effort is caused by entrenched graft where nobody cares but for their pocket. Imagine you are poor cop - 50K - you see top politician DPORK Ruto donating 20M each weekend - pap! just like that. Unless you are retarded you know he is a big thief. Would you care about people's lives or security - when Somali dude with heavy accent offer you 10K - to let thro the tinted van?

There have been geniuses the world over - you don't give one and take two - by infesting us with your cancer.

That is stretching it. US and UK and France with zero corruption do get hit - right. A determined terrorist willing to die - will get past all security.

The impact and cost of corruption is ABSOLUTE & EXPONENTIAL. Not abstract. In fact graft can be measured by SMARTER metrics. Ask Uhuru the PORK - his nephew & in-law died at Westgate - slaughtered like dogs - after corrupt bordermen let in al Shaabab - for 30 pieces of silver.

[RV Pundit]

Jubilee fixed terror - it did that by focusing on intelligence and all the cameras - agains OUTPUT matters. After 2013 - the next major attack was this year - and the response was world-class.

People can let terrorist pass - because they are either lazy to do their job or compromised. So corruption maybe nil - but terrorist will walk past a police officer talking to his girlfriend on the phone.

Yes but not the Kenyan variety - starved goons with akala - who walk free in Nairobi with some spare change. That mashinani graft where you can smuggle anything, get IDs, access cards, etc, - rent apartment - with minimal effort is caused by entrenched graft where nobody cares but for their pocket. Imagine you are poor cop - 50K - you see top politician DPORK Ruto donating 20M each weekend - pap! just like that - would you care about people's lives or security - when Somali dude with heavy accent offer you 10K - to let thro the tinted van?

There have been geniuses the world over - you don't give one and take two - by infesting us with your cancer.

That is stretching it. US and UK and France with zero corruption do get hit - right. A determined terrorist willing to die - will get past all security.

The impact and cost of corruption is ABSOLUTE & EXPONENTIAL. Not abstract. In fact graft can be measured by SMARTER metrics. Ask Uhuru the PORK - his nephew & in-law died at Westgate - slaughtered like dogs - after corrupt bordermen let in al Shaabab - for 30 pieces of silver.

[RV Pundit]

Robina my last - I need to play pool. Ruto and possibly Waiguru as DPORK will shock the world as the "Most" corrupt pair to win PORk. Watu hawapendi Ujinga. The same way UhuRuto indicted for the most egregious crimes in the world (with Ocampo argentinan accent) won.

[Nefertiti]

Jomo and Moi were equally negative role models - as far as graft goes - noone is defending them. Moi was worse for dishing money fwaa - Jomo kept it elite. Now to the present: few like you know Uhuru stole 30B - or Odinga got 2B handcheck - cause it just rumor few in the connected circle know. Wanjiku - the impressionable youth - are excited by the VISIBLE. I said the 1 coin or 100B Ruto has stashed is not the bone - rather the shameless trolleying of cash. 5M at goat auction, 2M at funeral, 50M for kogalo. So the voters want him because he is generous - to their peril - and here your notion of "outcome" is shortsighted. Because the youth, school kids & sundry are now infected with the malady.

You think by Ruto donating - he saying go steal money? How does that logic works? Everyone knows Kenyattas are dollar billionaires - and so are the Mois.Sonko get his criminal money - and donate. Ruto steals and donates. Uhuru steals and invest - and only spend during campaign. GM and Raila steal - and never invest in politics.

Everyone in Kenya knows all politicians are corrupt. That is why they elect Sonkos.

Tells us what you'll do for us....we know you're corrupt...steal but build us a road or church or a school...and we will reciprocate. That has been a message since 1960s.

Smart brilliant politicians like Ruto or Moi Snr or Sonkos - get the messages - and spend 10% of their loot - to reap even more. Their money is being re-invested smartly.

And idiot like Raila or GM - steal and become so tight-fisted - you'd think he is Bill Gates or Bezo - who worked for his money - and when politicians abandoned them - followed by the people - they shout Ruto is CORRUPT. REALLY NIGGER Ruto is Mashamba - for stealng 0.7 acre - while your fathers have 10,000 acres in Nairobi really Nigger.

Wait for hustle nation revolution. Hio Ujinga watu hawapendi. This is akin to ICC - Kibaki and Raila fight - share the spoils - and blame Uhuru & Ruto - and people could see the great injustice.  Despite ICC indictment - Kenyans shocked the world - and elected not 1 but a pair of ICC indicted people. The egg in ICC is yet to be wipped.

Now BIGGEST GENERATIONAL THIEVES are blaming Ruto for all Kenya corruptions -  and you think poor kenyans are also stupid.