Kadame,bittertruth, on the Word of Faith (WOF) movement

[vooke]

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There are some Naija brothers who have compiled a comprehensive thread on this. Please go through it
www.nairaland.com/1790500/word-faith-movements-doctrine-proponents

[kadame]

It's too long, that thread, but the posts I've read so far are spot on. This is the same disease that has conmen telling Kenyans "panda mbegu" 247 these days. Question is, why is it so successful? Because Kenyans and other people are greedy themselves. Honest people are usually able to tell that something stinks from these prosperity guys, even non-Christians like Muslims and non-religious people....

[veritas]

Nice 

[bittertruth]

vooke,
Thanks for bringing forth this insightful topic. I would differ with the Naija brothers in the context of Faith.

People like Napoleon Hill have impacted many lives in the most positive way. Pay close attention to his books and philosophies and you will see they are nothing different from the message that the Bible and other religious texts give you. Maybe they should do some research before they classify greatness as wicked

He executed the writing of the philosophy so well, even the close minded, "non religious" person can benefit from it in some way. He's writing on a level that todays society can understand, and he translates the true meaning from the metaphorical aspect with detail, and clarity.

Kadame,  I think We need to stop viewing this world and our fellow people as evil, and nothing but bad intentions.

[vooke]

bittertruth,
Whatever he taught was not the gospel regardless of how well it was received. It is purely man-centric instead of God's. If God's Word is not sufficient to convert a soul, nothing is

I took almost a week poring through the thread. It is rich. The negroes have done a superb job of demonstrating the connections between these teachings. The worst poison is one laced with food.

[kadame]

Kadame,  I think We need to stop viewing this world and our fellow people as evil, and nothing but bad intentions.

Bittertruth, my view of the world is that it is "good". That's what God said of creation in Genesis. That's not the issue.

When I read the New Testament, I don't see this obsession with worldly possessions. I never used to see it from Christians when I was growing up. It's come like a wave, sweeping all over. Why is it Christians went to church to focuss on something other than worldly desires back in the day? Don't you think something sinister is going on here?

By the way, I am not into poverty. I like me some money, and I always ask God for worldly provisions that I need. But I don't think that he gives me based on the money my priest receives as if I buy God or something. In fact, if I can tell you from real, genuine, personal experience, the prayers that have been answered fastest, most clearly and in unmistakably miraculous fashion, their defining characteristic had zilch to do with how much money I had given nowhere. I can say without fear of contradiction that they were based in HUMILITY. That's it. Those prayers where I know my own weakness and consequently turn to God as a person who has nothing of their own but depends on him for everything--those prayers are so EFFECTIVE that I have to kick myself in the foot just thinking about it, coz Why can't I be permanently humble? 

Humility is something I never hear in these people's so called prayers. They go to God believing they DESERVE his gifts, that they can "claim" them, that God is somehow bound to give them what they want because they have given some "mbegu". They forget how much emphasis Christ put on interior dispositions. If you are only giving "to get", then are you realy giving? You are not loving God at all, but yourself. If I can paraphrase Christ, "What reward have you? Do not even the pagans do as much?" You must strive for genuine selflessness in your relationship with God. It is hard, veeerry hard. And anybody who claims it is not hard and that they are not constantly fumbling is lying. But at least, we should try. Not throw that away and head straight for the opposite approach where we are constantly and deliberately self-seeking, which is what happens on TV these days, all the time.

[vooke]

WHat is the difference between WOF and the Catholicism error of hawking sins? Apart from being hundreds of years apart, at least Catholics was spiritual, buying eternity, shorter stay in purgatory and so forth. WOF is selling pure carnality; mo money, promotion, business, better health

[kadame]

WHat is the difference between WOF and the Catholicism error of hawking sins? Apart from being hundreds of years apart, at least Catholics was spiritual, buying eternity, shorter stay in purgatory and so forth. WOF is selling pure carnality; mo money, promotion, business, better health

They are both wrong. What was your point? That Catholics are sinners too? You did not need to travel centuries for that. The difference, the church put a stop to it by condemning it. Have no idea how this new theology of evangelicals is going to be stopped, though. Maybe divine intervention.

[bittertruth]

vooke, Kadame
The bible says seek ye first His kingdom and Righteousness and all these things will be given to you as well. God is the giver of all these material things. What's wrong in  believing that, kwani are we meant to be beggars or something. We have Christian dollar billionares, how's that wicked?. If I give a thousand dollars to support family tv, I am serving God simply to keep God on the airwaves.

WHat is the difference between WOF and the Catholicism error of hawking sins? Apart from being hundreds of years apart, at least Catholics was spiritual, buying eternity, shorter stay in purgatory and so forth. WOF is selling pure carnality; mo money, promotion, business, better health

They are both wrong. What was your point? That Catholics are sinners too? You did not need to travel centuries for that. The difference, the church put a stop to it by condemning it. Have no idea how this new theology of evangelicals is going to be stopped, though. Maybe divine intervention.

[bittertruth]

[vooke]

Bittertruth,
You should see me grinning when my wallet is packing some Jomos. I love mullah,I work so hard getting it. I never said money is evil so please spare me.

I also love good health and sickness is depressing be it a mere headache or a terminal illness.

So again careful with preaching to the choir. But fact is if Christianity is all about good health and wealth, we are doing badly. Because Christians are neither richer nor wealthier. The reason is simple. Health and/wealth are not the point. Focus is on eternity where none of that matters. My job under the sun is win as many souls as possible, not be the filthy richest or clock 150 years.

Somewhat this idea of health and wealth must have escaped the apostles and the primitive church. They was dirt poor. Timothy had ulcers, Epaphroditus nearly died

[bittertruth]

Kadame,
A catholic must believe all the teachings of Roman Catholic Church that he can be a Catholic. If inside of RCC is a person who sets the salvation alone by faith in the Lord Jesus, he can't be anymore a Catholic, because if he would want to be a Catholic he must set beside Jesus all Catholic ways of salvation.
RCC doesn't recognize such person as Catholic who don't believe in all official teachings of RCC including many ways of salvation.

If you are inside of RCC and believe that Jesus is only way of salvation, better escape and leave and pray that God may lead you to a Church that walk in the truth by the power of the Holy Spirit and loves God.

Please also read this: http://www.kotipetripaavola.com/catholicchurchbabylonianpaganroots.html

WHat is the difference between WOF and the Catholicism error of hawking sins?

They are both wrong. What was your point? That Catholics are sinners too? You did not need to travel centuries for that. The difference, the church put a stop to it by condemning it. Have no idea how this new theology of evangelicals is going to be stopped, though. Maybe divine intervention.

[GeeMail]

Amen Kairetu. Serving God's professed self-appointed servants is not the same as serving God. Planting seeds with these false prophets of prosperity will not reap a harvest from the Source of all blessings, who gave His all in order to save us all.

Kadame,  I think We need to stop viewing this world and our fellow people as evil, and nothing but bad intentions.

Bittertruth, my view of the world is that it is "good". That's what God said of creation in Genesis. That's not the issue.

When I read the New Testament, I don't see this obsession with worldly possessions. I never used to see it from Christians when I was growing up. It's come like a wave, sweeping all over. Why is it Christians went to church to focuss on something other than worldly desires back in the day? Don't you think something sinister is going on here?

By the way, I am not into poverty. I like me some money, and I always ask God for worldly provisions that I need. But I don't think that he gives me based on the money my priest receives as if I buy God or something. In fact, if I can tell you from real, genuine, personal experience, the prayers that have been answered fastest, most clearly and in unmistakably miraculous fashion, their defining characteristic had zilch to do with how much money I had given nowhere. I can say without fear of contradiction that they were based in HUMILITY. That's it. Those prayers where I know my own weakness and consequently turn to God as a person who has nothing of their own but depends on him for everything--those prayers are so EFFECTIVE that I have to kick myself in the foot just thinking about it, coz Why can't I be permanently humble? 

Humility is something I never hear in these people's so called prayers. They go to God believing they DESERVE his gifts, that they can "claim" them, that God is somehow bound to give them what they want because they have given some "mbegu". They forget how much emphasis Christ put on interior dispositions. If you are only giving "to get", then are you realy giving? You are not loving God at all, but yourself. If I can paraphrase Christ, "What reward have you? Do not even the pagans do as much?" You must strive for genuine selflessness in your relationship with God. It is hard, veeerry hard. And anybody who claims it is not hard and that they are not constantly fumbling is lying. But at least, we should try. Not throw that away and head straight for the opposite approach where we are constantly and deliberately self-seeking, which is what happens on TV these days, all the time.

[kadame]

Bittertruth, I like you. You are a good man who loves Jesus. I may even get into it with vooke all the time, but that's just coz we are both extremely argumentative people (my assessment), but believe me when I say, besides all this, I still admire the man because at the end of the day, he loves the same person I have been taught to love- Jesus. So while I will fight for my catholicism, him for his nondenominationalism, dailybread for his/her Adventism, Saltylight/kadude for his tithes, lady nuff sed for her soul-sleep and you for your prosperity beliefs, it is still a precious thing to me that what we all have in common is that we believe something the world thinks is completely stupid or plain nuts, that the poor Rabbi from Nazareth was actually the living God in flesh who saves us. Why do I go into this long story? You are completely ignorant of catholic teaching on Jesus and salvation. I know it is not intended as malicious, too many centuries of catholic-Protestant propaganda villainizing each other back&forth, with very little truth has been going on. Yet I really am in no mood to engage you.  Now, the next time you are interested in learning WHAT Catholics teach and believe, and not what Protestants-believe-catholics-teach-and-believe", do yourself a favor and consult the horse's mouth.

This is Catholic belief and teaching on Jesus Christ: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c2a2.htm

Information is so easy to get these days, there's really little excuse to rely on conspiracism.

Kadame,
A catholic must believe all the teachings of Roman Catholic Church that he can be a Catholic. If inside of RCC is a person who sets the salvation alone by faith in the Lord Jesus, he can't be anymore a Catholic, because if he would want to be a Catholic he must set beside Jesus all Catholic ways of salvation.
RCC doesn't recognize such person as Catholic who don't believe in all official teachings of RCC including many ways of salvation.

If you are inside of RCC and believe that Jesus is only way of salvation, better escape and leave and pray that God may lead you to a Church that walk in the truth by the power of the Holy Spirit and loves God.

Please also read this: http://www.kotipetripaavola.com/catholicchurchbabylonianpaganroots.html

They are both wrong. What was your point? That Catholics are sinners too? You did not need to travel centuries for that. The difference, the church put a stop to it by condemning it. Have no idea how this new theology of evangelicals is going to be stopped, though. Maybe divine intervention.

[bittertruth]

DailyBread, I don't know what's your SDA definition of prosperity? If u believe that prosperity is all about money, then that's too myopic.

Amen Kairetu. Serving God's professed self-appointed servants is not the same as serving God. Planting seeds with these false prophets of prosperity will not reap a harvest from the Source of all blessings, who gave His all in order to save us all.

Kadame,  I think We need to stop viewing this world and our fellow people as evil, and nothing but bad intentions.

Bittertruth, my view of the world is that it is "good". That's what God said of creation in Genesis. That's not the issue.

When I read the New Testament, I don't see this obsession with worldly possessions. I never used to see it from Christians when I was growing up. It's come like a wave, sweeping all over. Why is it Christians went to church to focuss on something other than worldly desires back in the day? Don't you think something sinister is going on here?

By the way, I am not into poverty. I like me some money, and I always ask God for worldly provisions that I need. But I don't think that he gives me based on the money my priest receives as if I buy God or something. In fact, if I can tell you from real, genuine, personal experience, the prayers that have been answered fastest, most clearly and in unmistakably miraculous fashion, their defining characteristic had zilch to do with how much money I had given nowhere. I can say without fear of contradiction that they were based in HUMILITY. That's it. Those prayers where I know my own weakness and consequently turn to God as a person who has nothing of their own but depends on him for everything--those prayers are so EFFECTIVE that I have to kick myself in the foot just thinking about it, coz Why can't I be permanently humble? 

Humility is something I never hear in these people's so called prayers. They go to God believing they DESERVE his gifts, that they can "claim" them, that God is somehow bound to give them what they want because they have given some "mbegu". They forget how much emphasis Christ put on interior dispositions. If you are only giving "to get", then are you realy giving? You are not loving God at all, but yourself. If I can paraphrase Christ, "What reward have you? Do not even the pagans do as much?" You must strive for genuine selflessness in your relationship with God. It is hard, veeerry hard. And anybody who claims it is not hard and that they are not constantly fumbling is lying. But at least, we should try. Not throw that away and head straight for the opposite approach where we are constantly and deliberately self-seeking, which is what happens on TV these days, all the time.