vooke, hebu njoo hapa (about China)

[Dear Mami]

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I noticed sometime back that you enjoy quora like me so I got this comment below for you. I did not like your implying that China runs on a dictator's model of governance. They are a combined political meritocracy + grassroots democracy. Soma hii hapa chini, I like how this guy explains the way people like Rutolings who salivate over the "Chinese model" are the last people who would ever actually implement the actual Chinese model. Here is the link if you want to read other answers but this one below ni tamu kama asali, tafadhali soma kisha uniambie, is this not something we as Africans should have implemented kitaaaambo tungelijua tu? https://www.quora.com/Why-is-China-s-model-of-governance-meritocracy-superior-to-western-democracy

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

I agree that China is not run on the individual whims of some kleptocrat.  But Robin Daverman makes some shockingly lazy arguments about absence of dynasties in a country whose history is almost synonymous with them.

[vooke]

[Dear Mami]

Termi, don't be so quick to dismiss a system that has pulled off the biggest economic miracle in a long stretch of history. In fact, vooke, Termi, listen to this dude. He has actually studied the Chinese governance structure/model up close. According to him, among the politburo's 25 members, only 5 are princelings, and the two powerful heads are not princelings (this was in 2013, Idk if things are different now) and the second most powerful body of 300 has an even smaller percentage of princelings. China is far more biased towards the ordinary/common man rising through the ranks through sheer talent and hard work than it is towards dynasticism. Enjoy this Ted! It's true that results speak for themselves. You don't pull 800 million people out of poverty in three short decades unless you are doing something very, very right. The West has never done anything nearly so transformative on such a scale and within such a frame of time as China has pulled off within my lifetime. It's truly impressive. Tell me what you guys think, I really enjoyed this talk.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

[RV Pundit]

We can argue about the cost of corruption to the economy but we know for sure that our political bikering has a definite cost..every election year we lose abt half the gdp growth..which is equivalent of new SGR or maybe 300billion.If we factor the constant bdaily political tribal energy invested in our politics it even get worse.I am mean from 90s till now we been in constant unending tribal wars fought on the media or bars or sometime even physically.This is cost China doesnt incurr.There is peaceful transfer of power under one party system.This true in orher countries too that have stable political system.Jubilee the last 5yrs have been far more stable regime bar the supreme court induced nonsense of Raila the last yr.I think the more jubilee become stronger the more stable and predictable our politics will be..10yrs under Uhuru..10yrs under Ruto..then 10yrs under someone else should get us china model.

[Dear Mami]

So^^ the Chinese model came from 30 years of dictatorship? Pray tell, why did it not magically occur during Jomo's or Moi's eras or in the myriad of dictatorships we've had on this continent since independence? Heck, if this is what it took, Africa should be teeming with Chinese models by now.

Termi, I think you may have misunderstood him a bit. He was not referring to the emperors but to the administrators/the old "civil service". You can see he refers specifically to ministers in Chinese history. It's only this part of the old Chinese governance structure that has been replicated/continued in modern China. The emperors were replaced by the CCP's highest bodies, I guess.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

So^^ the Chinese model came from 30 years of dictatorship? Pray tell, why did it not magically occur during Jomo's or Moi's eras or in the myriad of dictatorships we've had on this continent since independence? Heck, if this is what it took, Africa should be teeming with Chinese models by now.

Termi, I think you may have misunderstood him a bit. He was not referring to the emperors but to the administrators/the old "civil service". You can see he refers specifically to ministers in Chinese history. It's only this part of the old Chinese governance structure that has been replicated/continued in modern China. The emperors were replaced by the CCP's highest bodies, I guess.

I agree with your observation on Africa.  The comparison with China is shallow.  The Kenyan wish for authoritarian rule is informed by the desire to continue stealing and protecting ill gotten wealth. 

China is similar to the other East Asian countries, just much larger and poorer.  Many of these countries are not dictatorships.  Some may have been under some form of authoritarian rule during their rise.  But it is not the common thread.  The common thread is manufacturing their way out of poverty regardless of the type of government - so something else is at play.

About the author.  He does talk cabinet ministers and prime ministers.  Granted I don't know the fine details.  But in terms hereditary leadership, it's fair to not ignore or downplay the fact that China had dynasties.  I think by doing this, he does not do justice to his case.  It makes him appear too invested in his argument to care about other facts.

Suppose he is right.  There is still the fact that the modern history of China, bar its recent emergence, has not been particularly inspiring, despite this vaunted thousand year system of meritocracy.  We gloss over that and we miss important insights.  We therefore pretend that China was doing just as well during the Mao years as it is doing today.  But that is obviously not true, despite this long tradition.

What changed between the Mao years and now?  I think that is more relevant to understand what's happening there.  And it may turn out that meritocracy suffered under Mao.

[Dear Mami]

Termi what I find most puzzling is how this dictatorship "idea" is being touted as if it's a brilliant new experiment over here. I'm here thinking, really? Is there an older, better tested "governance model" than dictatorship on this continent including most of Kenya's history? Indeed any improvement in Africa over the last few decades has occurred in tandem with the expansion of democracy on the Continent. Now *there's* something to wrap your mind around.

You're right. Mao's years were horrendous. And they were actually the closest to the dictator's model that China has ever gotten since they dispatched the Emperors to Taiwan. Indeed, the Emperors were dictators. It's only after the ouster of that model that China's dramatic improvement occurred. Also, their great reformer, Mao's successor simply sobered up and saw what was not working, hence the move away from total communism. I guess like other places, China was lucky in its leaders at a certain crucial time (Mao's death) and certain good changes were made and institutionalized so that they outlived their good leaders.

Personally, I think we should be wise as foxes, shrewed as serpents. Take from BaChina what is good and from Bazungu what is good. Adapt, like them. Dictatorships in tribal societies are recipies for war. Africa is the World's lab in that respect. Now talk about "costs".

What we need from the Chinaman is the competence model. Blend it with our system. Make the president have to go through 30 years of proven governance before handing the fate of the country to him and even then, dont make him that important. Give him a Politburo. Force him to convince everyone of changes he wants to introduce by giving the entire Politburo both independence from him and right of veto. Let these changes once accepted, be implementable in 5 year plans, not immediately. Make politicians go through a more rigorous ethics and competence test than even our Chapter Six could ever dream about. Then keep making them go through those tests at every higher step they advance to. Take regular public surveys of those served by these folk to gauge their competence alongside other objective mesurements....now THAT is democracy on steriods if you ask me! Etc etc. THAT'S the kinda stuff we should be borrowing from BaChina, not using them to impose Mobutu 2.0 on Kenyans and Africans.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Termi what I find most puzzling is how this dictatorship "idea" is being touted as if it's a brilliant new experiment over here. I'm here thinking, really? Is there an older, better tested "governance model" than dictatorship on this continent including most of Kenya's history? Indeed any improvement in Africa over the last few decades has occurred in tandem with the expansion of democracy on the Continent. Now *there's* something to wrap your mind around.

You're right. Mao's years were horrendous. And they were actually the closest to the dictator's model that China has ever gotten since they dispatched the Emperors to Taiwan. Indeed, the Emperors were dictators. It's only after the ouster of that model that China's dramatic improvement occurred. Also, their great reformer, Mao's successor simply sobered up and saw what was not working, hence the move away from total communism. I guess like other places, China was lucky in its leaders at a certain crucial time (Mao's death) and certain good changes were made and institutionalized so that they outlived their good leaders.

Personally, I think we should be wise as foxes, shrewed as serpents. Take from BaChina what is good and from Bazungu what is good. Adapt, like them. Dictatorships in tribal societies are recipies for war. Africa is the World's lab in that respect. Now talk about "costs".

What we need from the Chinaman is the competence model. Blend it with our system. Make the president have to go through 30 years of proven governance before handing the fate of the country to him and even then, dont make him that important. Give him a Politburo. Force him to convince everyone of changes he wants to introduce by giving the entire Politburo both independence from him and right of veto. Let these changes once accepted, be implementable in 5 year plans, not immediately. Make politicians go through a more rigorous ethics and competence test than even our Chapter Six could ever dream about. Then keep making them go through those tests at every higher step they advance to. Take regular public surveys of those served by these folk to gauge their competence alongside other objective mesurements....now THAT is democracy on steriods if you ask me! Etc etc. THAT'S the kinda stuff we should be borrowing from BaChina, not using them to impose Mobutu 2.0 on Kenyans and Africans.

Yep.  Their policies are different from Mao days.   Then there is the discipline that goes beyond gaudy shows and presentations.  I think the relative homogeneity of East Asian countries allows them to potentially thrive in any number of different political systems.  And this includes strongmen.  Something that is an automatic fail for any diverse country.

[Nefertiti]

Yep.  Their policies are different from Mao days.   Then there is the discipline that goes beyond gaudy shows and presentations.  I think the relative homogeneity of East Asian countries allows them to potentially thrive in any number of different political systems.  And this includes strongmen.  Something that is an automatic fail for any diverse country.

This is an unproven hypothesis. Correlation is not causation. What stops homegeneous Nordics from discarding democracy? Most of the West is homegeneous yet abhors autocracy.

[RV Pundit]

I see we are now going into race and eugenics - that Asians are somehow more disciplined bla bla. Let's not conflate the miracles or economies of location/geography as far as industrialization goes with eugenics. Asia have had it's fair share of all the shenagians we've hard - politically speaking - dictatorship, military rules, juntas, democracy, autocracy and name it.

Ultimately for me whatever political systems can guarantee political stability with peaceful exchange of power over the long term works!

Kenya in this regard has been doing relatively well - 55 yrs later - we have had relative peaceful hand overs and stable gok. We just need to deal with election year anxiety and trouble. This been going on since the re-introduction of multi-party systems. Every election year we seem to tither on the brink. I think the solution ultimately is one strong political party that can dominate the rest and make election a rather forgone conclusion - if we cannot have two parties like US that can compete and  have the discipline to accept to win or lose. One or two strong parties in a multiparty doesn't equate to dictatorship.

We just need to avoid elections which are won on 50-50 and go for decisive wins! KANU did this until the 90s. NARC and the tribal opposition parties that followed never lasted a day. ODM had a big promise but Raila mismanaged it. Now I see Jubilee slowly and surely re-establishing the KANU machinery of the yore - which will replicate CCM of TZ or ANC of RSA or Communist Party of China or the Ethiopia rulling coalition party - and ultimately set us on path of less tribalism and more stable gov - that allows us to now focus on other things - rather that endless tribal political wars.

NASA refused to gell into one party & offers us a US like dual party system and it's very gratifying to see it dying a slow painful death.

[Dear Mami]

No, I don't think it's necessarily hard work on the part of the population (though they certainly are!) as the same population was very poor not too long ago, or even homogeneity which is a Western assumption but is not exactly true. China is SUPER diverse actually. They have however had the advantage of 2,000 years of conquering, unifying etc so that they have an overarching Chinese identity that mediates all that diversity. Our problem in Africa is we have not yet successfully achieved that so our diversity is always like a ticking bomb. We must think of how to achieve unity as well as prosperity. I wish we could have a do-over and the chance to implement something like this, to be honest. The Western model isn't that good for us, we need to take from it some and then modify it to our own circumstances and problems.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Yep.  Their policies are different from Mao days.   Then there is the discipline that goes beyond gaudy shows and presentations.  I think the relative homogeneity of East Asian countries allows them to potentially thrive in any number of different political systems.  And this includes strongmen.  Something that is an automatic fail for any diverse country.

This is an unproven hypothesis. Correlation is not causation. What stops homegeneous Nordics from discarding democracy? Most of the West is homegeneous yet abhors autocracy.

You are responding as if I said that homogeneity leads to autocracy.  That's putting words into my mouth.  I said that autocracy is less of a destabilizing factor if a society is homogeneous.

That means if the Nordics find themselves under an autocracy, they are likely to fair better than a more diverse country in the same conditions, all else being even.

That said, I will point out that it's not a cut and dried argument.  Somalia is homogeneous, maybe the most ethnically homogeneous country in Africa.  Yet they have found a way to accentuate whatever small divisions they have.  But by your own admission, Africa is a special case(and I agree, but not with your underlying reason  ).

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

No, I don't think it's necessarily hard work on the part of the population (though they certainly are!) as the same population was very poor not too long ago, or even homogeneity which is a Western assumption but is not exactly true. China is SUPER diverse actually. They have however had the advantage of 2,000 years of conquering, unifying etc so that they have an overarching Chinese identity that mediates all that diversity. Our problem in Africa is we have not yet successfully achieved that so our diversity is always like a ticking bomb. We must think of how to achieve unity as well as prosperity. I wish we could have a do-over and the chance to implement something like this, to be honest. The Western model isn't that good for us, we need to take from it some and then modify it to our own circumstances and problems.

As you mention, the identity is more important than other factors.  What people think they are, they become.  That is why Igbos who had no idea what that even meant barely 70 years ago, quickly morphed into one the largest ethnic groups in Africa.  That is why Tanzanians next door cannot comprehend the ethnic animus that dominates Kenya.  In that sense, China is homogeneous.

[RV Pundit]

Behind all the stable political systems lies a deep federalism or devolution..this is true for usa or china or etc..the more people have power real issues that affect..the they dont care about the big jobs for whoever.That seem the trick.The nonsense that some people are more hardworking or discipline or whatever is the purest form of stupidity in 21st century.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Behind all the stable political systems lies a deep federalism or devolution..this is true for usa or china or etc..the more people have power real issues that affect..the they dont care about the big jobs for whoever.That seem the trick.The nonsense that some people are more hardworking or discipline or whatever is the purest form of stupidity in 21st century.

I agree, especially the last part.  Africans are pretty hardworking.  If you ask them to get up at 2 am in the morning to go to work, they will do it.  They are like mules.  What is not happening is the proper organization of that effort to benefit the society at large.

[Nefertiti]

I agree, especially the last part.  Africans are pretty hardworking.  If you ask them to get up at 2 am in the morning to go to work, they will do it.  They are like mules.  What is not happening is the proper organization of that effort to benefit the society at large.

All humans are equal? I will let you and Pundit to explain why the African is yet to figure out a fitting model centuries behind the rest of humanity.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

I agree, especially the last part.  Africans are pretty hardworking.  If you ask them to get up at 2 am in the morning to go to work, they will do it.  They are like mules.  What is not happening is the proper organization of that effort to benefit the society at large.

All humans are equal? I will let you and Pundit to explain why the African is yet to figure out a fitting model centuries behind the rest of humanity.

[Nefertiti]

Mr bitmask, Glad you inch towards reality. I don't buy the Kadame line that civilization or development is cyclical and the ancient African was a global leader at some point. I have not seen technology or inventions beyond the Pyramid and the Scroll to impress the ancient African's industry upon my pessimism.

This is important because if the African's diagnosis was a concensus, perhaps a solution would be in sight. The American taps global manpower elaborately via the Green Card. The South African is busy evicting remnant white capital... upon which I'm vehement.