Secession Bill

[vooke]

Robina, why is it so hard for you to understand that the these are not just cyclical elections but an electoral authoritarianism that is designed to keep on churning pre-determined dictators.

What's a solid RVGEMA coalition? Why not a Kenya coalition? So far we only see theft and police violence.

Moi predicted that multipartysm would divide us along tribes and it came to pass in 1992. 1997 the opposition realized thst nothing short of tribal coalitions would dislodge Nyaoism. So 2002 we had some solid tribal bloc excluding Kalenjins. 2007 Kibaki made a tragic mistake of disenfranchising a good component of the tribal coalition that saw him through 5yrs before....Uhuruto cobbled another in 2013, maintained it in 2017

Point is whatever Jubilee did is not novel nor illegal. It was successfully used to dislodge Moi and everyone cheered, not it is being used to maintain status quo. Why is it currently being vilified? Would NASWA be whining about tribal coalitions had theirs swept Jubilee into oblivion?

You are comparing apples and oranges in a strange a very strenuous attempt to justify the electoral authoritarianism that we are fighting.  This is very different from the multi-party liberation which dislodged Kanu/Moi.  I am really not interested in persuading you to join us if you are happy where you are, just stop lecturing us on what is good for us as if we are your children.

[hk]

If the proposals were about federalism that would make sense to me. Several major units that are formed not on ethnicity but on economic viability. Every federal unit to be self sustaining keeping bulk of taxes derived from that unit.

Sorry there are no such units. The counties are miniscule enough - and some can't even feed themselves. We need more EAC - and COMESA and AU - not more subdivision. Trade blocks implies unity and synergy not division. Divisions are always to assuage entitled ethnic or racist feelings - not about the economy. Even in a place like Sweden - where poor Africans die in the sea to reach - there are folks who cry federalism or secession - the "alt right" - because they have been screwed by the system. This is politics not economy.

Counties can be combined to form economic viable federal units. This is to make counties viable and not dependent on National government. Federalism doesn't necessarily lead to autonomy.We need federal units like germany or america that are viable not districts. The clamor for sharing the pie would shift to baking(hopefully).

[Nefertiti]

If the proposals were about federalism that would make sense to me. Several major units that are formed not on ethnicity but on economic viability. Every federal unit to be self sustaining keeping bulk of taxes derived from that unit.

Sorry there are no such units. The counties are miniscule enough - and some can't even feed themselves. We need more EAC - and COMESA and AU - not more subdivision. Trade blocks implies unity and synergy not division. Divisions are always to assuage entitled ethnic or racist feelings - not about the economy. Even in a place like Sweden - where poor Africans die in the sea to reach - there are folks who cry federalism or secession - the "alt right" - because they have been screwed by the system. This is politics not economy.

Counties can be combined to form economic viable federal units. This is to make counties viable and not dependent on National government. Federalism doesn't necessarily lead to autonomy.We need federal units like germany or america that are viable not districts. The clamor for sharing the pie would shift to baking(hopefully).

The 8 provinces we had for 50 years - were they great? The reason the 16 regions were tossed in Naivasha were 1)fear of tribalism or secession. Imagine a Nyanza region. Nothing stops the current counties from caucusing or cooperating. Mt Kenya governors are presently partnering over some issue or other. 2)National + regional + county is too much government. The town councils and mayors were scrapped for this reason. I think we should scrap some of the commissions to save taxes for development. Like the toothless CRA and Budget Office which do the Treasury's job. Further devolution should be directed to the counties once they prove they can do the job better than the national government. They actually collect rates like the old councils without accounting to the Treasury.

[hk]

The 8 provinces we had for 50 years - were they great? The reason the 16 regions were tossed in Naivasha were 1)fear of tribalism or secession. Imagine a Nyanza region. Nothing stops the current counties from caucusing or cooperating. Mt Kenya governors are presently partnering over some issue or other. 2)National + regional + county is too much government. The town councils and mayors were scrapped for this reason. I think we should scrap some of the commissions to save taxes for development. Like the toothless CRA and Budget Office which do the Treasury's job. Further devolution should be directed to the counties once they prove they can do the job better than the national government. They actually collect rates like the old councils without accounting to the Treasury.

I am not suggesting another layer of government but amalgamation of existing counties. Bottomline whether counties or federal units, funds allocation or retention should be determined by where those funds emanate from. So that counties can concentrating on economic development instead of waiting for funds from national government like manna. Yes we need to scrap alot of commissions and parastatals .

[RV Pundit]

I don't understand why we need big multi-ethnic counties when we know the clamour for devolution & federalism is ethnic. The 47 counties for me are fine - we just need to redraw the boundaries in next review - no point keeping Kurias in Migori for example - they should join Kisii county - part of Kisii should be hived off to Nyamira. The same case with Mt Elgon in Bungoma - they should be part of Tranzoia. Basically our counties should be single ethnic or at worst -related tribes - say Mbeere & Embu - and Keiyo-Marakwet - those can live together - but Kuria & Luos - Teso & Luhyas - Sabaot & Bukusu - is tough mix. Then you have tiny counties like Lamu - part of Kilifi ought to be hived off to Lamu.

The next battle is 2020 when the boundaries will be reviewed by IEBC. IEBC hopefully will be driven by public participation and perhaps some referendum.

The genesis of provinces and district - which are ethnic - is 1962 survey by British - where kenyans just wanted their own or related tribe enclaves. This feeling has not changed.

This 47 counties in a country where population is increasing - is good start to go federal - in the future - each of this counties will have 2m plus people - enough capacity to collect taxes and manage their own issues.

 

The 8 provinces we had for 50 years - were they great? The reason the 16 regions were tossed in Naivasha were 1)fear of tribalism or secession. Imagine a Nyanza region. Nothing stops the current counties from caucusing or cooperating. Mt Kenya governors are presently partnering over some issue or other. 2)National + regional + county is too much government. The town councils and mayors were scrapped for this reason. I think we should scrap some of the commissions to save taxes for development. Like the toothless CRA and Budget Office which do the Treasury's job. Further devolution should be directed to the counties once they prove they can do the job better than the national government. They actually collect rates like the old councils without accounting to the Treasury.

[RV Pundit]

I don't get the scale issue with bigger counties? Why can't current counties do all that on a small scale? We have tiny well ran counties - Namibia is mere 2m people - Kiambu is more popolous than that - the Botswana - the same - Cape Verde - name - most of well ran countries in Africa are 10m and less.

If the idea is to satisfy the big ego politicians by giving them landing space in more powerful counties then that makes some sense - say Kalonzo won't mind running all 3 counties of Ukambani - but find the current ones too small?

In my view this problem - of big principals will disappear in generation - the next crop of politician will start bottom-up - from MCA to MP to Governor to PORK. Right now you've all top dogs in Moi and Kibaki regime who have been everything but cannot imagine being governors - too small for them - that crop are retiring -

I am not suggesting another layer of government but amalgamation of existing counties. Bottomline whether counties or federal units, funds allocation or retention should be determined by where those funds emanate from. So that counties can concentrating on economic development instead of waiting for funds from national government like manna. Yes we need to scrap alot of commissions and parastatals .

[Dear Mami]

The secession counties in the Bill actually include jubilant strongholds of Kalenjin RV.  An odd inclusion if you ask me.

What I don't get is why there's a bill at all. Do we genuinely expect the houses to pass anything? I hope NASA is not placing even one egg in this particular basket. The Makodinga bill is also stupid. The Boer once tried to "give away" the Zulu to the King of Swaziland to save himself the headache of dealing with them. You can't just rob people of their citizenship, even by a referendum, if the people in those places don't themselves vote to secede. Another thing, this narrative that the Luo are isolated, they are the 'problem' for which a solution must be found is not only sick, it's a plain lie that no one outside Jubilant stronghold believes. It's not just the Luo. We all know it.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

The secession counties in the Bill actually include jubilant strongholds of Kalenjin RV.  An odd inclusion if you ask me.

What I don't get is why there's a bill at all. Do we genuinely expect the houses to pass anything? I hope NASA is not placing even one egg in this particular basket. The Makodinga bill is also stupid. The Boer once tried to "give away" the Zulu to the King of Swaziland to save himself the headache of dealing with them. You can't just rob people of their citizenship, even by a referendum, if the people in those places don't themselves vote to secede. Another thing, this narrative that the Luo are isolated, they are the 'problem' for which a solution must be found is not only sick, it's a plain lie that no one outside Jubilant stronghold believes. It's not just the Luo. We all know it.

I think the thing can bypass the house, but after going through some hoops.  I agree there is a narrative to portray the whole thing as a Luo affair.  That somehow if the Luo are pushed out, everybody else will be okay with having their heads shitted on.  Probably leaning on the fact that the most vocal proponents of change in Kenya have been Luo. 

[Empedocles]

There's one major move the secessionists could do to force Uhuruto to the negotiating table; resign en masse, all of them from MCA to governor. Every single one.

But they wouldn't.

[GeeMail]

In March, 2008, his ZANU-PF party was defeated by Morgan Tsvangirai's Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) in parliamentary polls. Tsvangirai won the first-round presidential vote, but withdrew from the second round, citing violence against his supporters. Mugabe was inaugurated for a new term.
In 2013 Mugabe was declared re-elected and his party won a two-thirds majority in parliament.

KANU A/B

[bryan275]

Robina, why is it so hard for you to understand that the these are not just cyclical elections but an electoral authoritarianism that is designed to keep on churning pre-determined dictators.

What's a solid RVGEMA coalition? Why not a Kenya coalition? So far we only see theft and police violence.

Moi predicted that multipartysm would divide us along tribes and it came to pass in 1992. 1997 the opposition realized thst nothing short of tribal coalitions would dislodge Nyaoism. So 2002 we had some solid tribal bloc excluding Kalenjins. 2007 Kibaki made a tragic mistake of disenfranchising a good component of the tribal coalition that saw him through 5yrs before....Uhuruto cobbled another in 2013, maintained it in 2017

Point is whatever Jubilee did is not novel nor illegal. It was successfully used to dislodge Moi and everyone cheered, not it is being used to maintain status quo. Why is it currently being vilified? Would NASWA be whining about tribal coalitions had theirs swept Jubilee into oblivion?

You are comparing apples and oranges in a strange a very strenuous attempt to justify the electoral authoritarianism that we are fighting.  This is very different from the multi-party liberation which dislodged Kanu/Moi.  I am really not interested in persuading you to join us if you are happy where you are, just stop lecturing us on what is good for us as if we are your children.

Massive electoral fraud, extreme tribalism, corruption and murders?

[Nefertiti]

Is this a whole new thing now in Kenya? Is it hip? Do folks "come out" as secessionist?

[Empedocles]

Is this a whole new thing now in Kenya? Is it hip? Do folks "come out" as secessionist?

The stories keep on changing, with the NASA leaders throwing anything to remain relevant.

This from MDVD (granted, no heavyweight):

https://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2017/11/18/nasa-wants-iebc-roles-devolved-to-counties_c1671248

See? Now they're talking about devolving the IEBC to the counties and a parliamentary system...again.

[Kichwa]

You are slowly morphing into an idiot regurgitating jubilee's cheap talking points. Tell us something new. Its really boring.

Is this a whole new thing now in Kenya? Is it hip? Do folks "come out" as secessionist?

The stories keep on changing, with the NASA leaders throwing anything to remain relevant.

This from MDVD (granted, no heavyweight):

https://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2017/11/18/nasa-wants-iebc-roles-devolved-to-counties_c1671248

See? Now they're talking about devolving the IEBC to the counties and a parliamentary system...again.

[hk]

Peter anyang Nyongo calls for federal system https://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2017/11/18/if-we-fear-secession-then-lets-go-federal-a-marriage-that-works_c1671243  . Now this is an idea I would support. Bottomline whether it will be counties or Federal units,  the unit gets to keep a percentage of all the taxes derived from that county or federal unit. This should lead to scrapping of CRA. There are some real insights here on how counties are doing in revenue collection http://cob.go.ke/publications/consolidated-county-budget-implementation-review-reports/

[Nefertiti]

Peter anyang Nyongo calls for federal system https://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2017/11/18/if-we-fear-secession-then-lets-go-federal-a-marriage-that-works_c1671243  . Now this is an idea I would support. Bottomline whether it will be counties or Federal units,  the unit gets to keep a percentage of all the taxes derived from that county or federal unit. This should lead to scrapping of CRA. There are some real insights here on how counties are doing in revenue collection http://cob.go.ke/publications/consolidated-county-budget-implementation-review-reports/

We need some time to test out the NEW county system. It's a good thing NASA has control of only a minority of the counties so the majority will say a firm No to this nonsense. It's the reason there is a tussle over the CoG chair.

[Empedocles]

You are slowly morphing into an idiot regurgitating jubilee's cheap talking points. Tell us something new. Its really boring.

Is this a whole new thing now in Kenya? Is it hip? Do folks "come out" as secessionist?

The stories keep on changing, with the NASA leaders throwing anything to remain relevant.

This from MDVD (granted, no heavyweight):

https://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2017/11/18/nasa-wants-iebc-roles-devolved-to-counties_c1671248

See? Now they're talking about devolving the IEBC to the counties and a parliamentary system...again.

Mind your language.

If you disagree with anything I have to say, you're free to ignore me.

[hk]

Peter anyang Nyongo calls for federal system https://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2017/11/18/if-we-fear-secession-then-lets-go-federal-a-marriage-that-works_c1671243  . Now this is an idea I would support. Bottomline whether it will be counties or Federal units,  the unit gets to keep a percentage of all the taxes derived from that county or federal unit. This should lead to scrapping of CRA. There are some real insights here on how counties are doing in revenue collection http://cob.go.ke/publications/consolidated-county-budget-implementation-review-reports/

We need some time to test out the NEW county system. It's a good thing NASA has control of only a minority of the counties so the majority will say a firm No to this nonsense. It's the reason there is a tussle over the CoG chair.

Actually I don't think this is nonsense. We made a mistake when we focused so much on funds distribution and very little on raising funds. The way counties are constituted is to get funds from national government and spend it. Very little is in trying to attract investment. If a company invest in a county the most the county will get is just company license and land rates on the building. We can argue whether the counties have capacity to be federal units but the way forward has to be more federal in whatever form. Kisumu and Makueni are currently the test counties for so called social democracy.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Peter anyang Nyongo calls for federal system https://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2017/11/18/if-we-fear-secession-then-lets-go-federal-a-marriage-that-works_c1671243  . Now this is an idea I would support. Bottomline whether it will be counties or Federal units,  the unit gets to keep a percentage of all the taxes derived from that county or federal unit. This should lead to scrapping of CRA. There are some real insights here on how counties are doing in revenue collection http://cob.go.ke/publications/consolidated-county-budget-implementation-review-reports/

For a University of Chicago alum, Anyang' Nyong'o makes a very shallow case for Federalism.  He should at a minimum know the tenderpreneur phenomenon has nothing to do with devolution or lack of it.  Scary.

I agree that is an option Kenya should explore urgently.  But not because of what this says in this article.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Peter anyang Nyongo calls for federal system https://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2017/11/18/if-we-fear-secession-then-lets-go-federal-a-marriage-that-works_c1671243  . Now this is an idea I would support. Bottomline whether it will be counties or Federal units,  the unit gets to keep a percentage of all the taxes derived from that county or federal unit. This should lead to scrapping of CRA. There are some real insights here on how counties are doing in revenue collection http://cob.go.ke/publications/consolidated-county-budget-implementation-review-reports/

We need some time to test out the NEW county system. It's a good thing NASA has control of only a minority of the counties so the majority will say a firm No to this nonsense. It's the reason there is a tussle over the CoG chair.

Actually I don't think this is nonsense. We made a mistake when we focused so much on funds distribution and very little on raising funds. The way counties are constituted is to get funds from national government and spend it. Very little is in trying to attract investment. If a company invest in a county the most the county will get is just company license and land rates on the building. We can argue whether the counties have capacity to be federal units but the way forward has to be more federal in whatever form. Kisumu and Makueni are currently the test counties for so called social democracy.

Some counties are not viable.  There is still going to be a need for redistribution.  In the US, some states, mostly in the South are net recipients of the Federal kitty.