The People's Assembly Loading....

[vooke]

The problem I have with this argument that "they are all the same" is that it is deceptively coined  to appear neutral but its ultimate effect is to maintain the status quo and therefore I do not consider it neutral but a clever and a dishonest support for the jubilee government.  Those who make this argument cleverly pretend to agree with us on the diagnosis of the problems that Kenya has but when we suggest a change in leadership they quickly pounce on demonizing the opposition and calling them all kinds of names to discredit them as alternatives to the current leaders. I am more comfortable with the honesty of RV Pundit in his support of this regime warts and all.  For example, RV pundit is honest enough to admit publicly that this regime will go to the extent of forcing another SCOK lack of quorum  if it believes it that it  may lose the current petitions challenging the October 26, 2017 elections.  I therefore appreciate RV pundits open and honest representation of the jubilee regime than the dishonest argument that "they are all the same- so let us keep the status quo and move on".

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

It's good to be aware of Raila and his weaknesses.  Even if they are common human weaknesses.  But it cannot be at the expense of the actual problem.  Raila might be crazy, but he is not in power.  He is not the guy intimidating and threatening the judiciary.  Or overseeing any of the excesses of the past five years.  He is important because he is the man with the best chance of scuttling the plans those planning to roll back the meager progress Kenya has experienced in its democratic space; that is more important IMO.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

If RAO showed himself a friend of those in power and not such a threat and tattletale he might probably even be "given" the presidency. It has always seemed fairly obvious to me that the man wants one thing and only that thing: legacy. Stature. A name throughout the continent. Places in history books. Occasional mentions among the likes of Mandelas and such. He wants to be remembered 'bigly' as the one who did this and that, wants the praise and recognition etc etc. Vainglory. That is much much much better than people who couldnt care less about such but care only about wealth, holding it, increasing it, protecting it at all costs. Someone who wants praise and recognition will be far more open to allowing things to thrive and take the credit. He would be far less willing to allow them to "die" and earn the shame. I want that kind of shallow politician than a straight up thug who doesnt care if you remember him as Mobutu just as long as he gets to enjoy his life.

Isn't that what all demagogues want?

Careful, I'm not saying Rao is one.

They dont all need it. Some just want power and money. Full stop. Recognition is not that necessary although it would be nice. All politicians want simething for themselves and from where I stand, I judge those would be better for me who need to look good (which will motivate them to do some good things or at least avoid very bad things) than those who couldnt care less if they look like lil Kim of N. Korea as long as they get their way. They may both die and go to the same hell but they will not rule the same way.

Sounds like Ruto and his brilliant sidekicks like Farouk Kibet.

[Dear Mami]

If RAO showed himself a friend of those in power and not such a threat and tattletale he might probably even be "given" the presidency. It has always seemed fairly obvious to me that the man wants one thing and only that thing: legacy. Stature. A name throughout the continent. Places in history books. Occasional mentions among the likes of Mandelas and such. He wants to be remembered 'bigly' as the one who did this and that, wants the praise and recognition etc etc. Vainglory. That is much much much better than people who couldnt care less about such but care only about wealth, holding it, increasing it, protecting it at all costs. Someone who wants praise and recognition will be far more open to allowing things to thrive and take the credit. He would be far less willing to allow them to "die" and earn the shame. I want that kind of shallow politician than a straight up thug who doesnt care if you remember him as Mobutu just as long as he gets to enjoy his life.

They call Kibaki a coward/softie because he did care about a name, all his other faults notwithstanding. Had he known what was gonna transpire in early 2008 he probably would not have done some things. Some in power now dont care about preserving a name and so to some, they are "brave", "tough" unlike Kifaki.

What legacy was he pursuing when joining Kanu,and only bolting when he realized he had been duped?


It has morphed into a personal quest to get to the highest office.
Principles/ideologies are secondary

I don't see how he compromised "all he stood for" just by joing government: How exactly did he do that? Just be being in government? Did he become a Moi sycophant while in Govt? Did he start fighting democracy and the quest for a new constitution? What did he actually do to destroy what he had been fighting for those few years he was in govt?

He joined KANU as a quick route to the presidency. Sure. Anybody with two brain cells to rub together can see that. Moi's impending exit created a fantabulous opportunity. Since he didn't become president, we have no idea what kind of things he intended to do as president. And when Moi came up with the plot to continue KANU the same way with Uhuru, he bolted with all the young turks.

I see opportunism there. Loads of it. I am unsure how this meant he had betrayed the stuff he was fighting for: democracy, new constitution, devolution, etc. Perhaps an explanation/examples would help.

[Dear Mami]

The problem I have with this argument that "they are all the same" is that it is deceptively coined  to appear neutral but its ultimate effect is to maintain the status quo and therefore I do not consider it neutral but a clever and a dishonest support for the jubilee government.  Those who make this argument cleverly pretend to agree with us on the diagnosis of the problems that Kenya has but when we suggest a change in leadership they quickly pounce on demonizing the opposition and calling them all kinds of names to discredit them as alternatives to the current leaders. I am more comfortable with the honesty of RV Pundit in his support of this regime warts and all.  For example, RV pundit is honest enough to admit publicly that this regime will go to the extent of forcing another SCOK lack of quorum  if it believes it that it  may lose the current petitions challenging the October 26, 2017 elections.  I therefore appreciate RV pundits open and honest representation of the jubilee regime than the dishonest argument that "they are all the same- so let us keep the status quo and move on".

Hear hear.

[vooke]

If RAO showed himself a friend of those in power and not such a threat and tattletale he might probably even be "given" the presidency. It has always seemed fairly obvious to me that the man wants one thing and only that thing: legacy. Stature. A name throughout the continent. Places in history books. Occasional mentions among the likes of Mandelas and such. He wants to be remembered 'bigly' as the one who did this and that, wants the praise and recognition etc etc. Vainglory. That is much much much better than people who couldnt care less about such but care only about wealth, holding it, increasing it, protecting it at all costs. Someone who wants praise and recognition will be far more open to allowing things to thrive and take the credit. He would be far less willing to allow them to "die" and earn the shame. I want that kind of shallow politician than a straight up thug who doesnt care if you remember him as Mobutu just as long as he gets to enjoy his life.

They call Kibaki a coward/softie because he did care about a name, all his other faults notwithstanding. Had he known what was gonna transpire in early 2008 he probably would not have done some things. Some in power now dont care about preserving a name and so to some, they are "brave", "tough" unlike Kifaki.

What legacy was he pursuing when joining Kanu,and only bolting when he realized he had been duped?


It has morphed into a personal quest to get to the highest office.
Principles/ideologies are secondary

I don't see how he compromised "all he stood for" just by joing government: How exactly did he do that? Just be being in government? Did he become a Moi sycophant while in Govt? Did he start fighting democracy and the quest for a new constitution? What did he actually do to destroy what he had been fighting for those few years he was in govt?

He joined KANU as a quick route to the presidency. Sure. Anybody with two brain cells to rub together can see that. Moi's impending exit created a fantabulous opportunity. Since he didn't become president, we have no idea what kind of things he intended to do as president. And when Moi came up with the plot to continue KANU the same way with Uhuru, he bolted with all the young turks.

I see opportunism there. Loads of it. I am unsure how this meant he had betrayed the stuff he was fighting for: democracy, new constitution, devolution, etc. Perhaps an explanation/examples would help.

[Dear Mami]

I don't see how he compromised "all he stood for" just by joing government: How exactly did he do that? Just be being in government? Did he become a Moi sycophant while in Govt? Did he start fighting democracy and the quest for a new constitution? What did he actually do to destroy what he had been fighting for those few years he was in govt?

He joined KANU as a quick route to the presidency. Sure. Anybody with two brain cells to rub together can see that. Moi's impending exit created a fantabulous opportunity. Since he didn't become president, we have no idea what kind of things he intended to do as president. And when Moi came up with the plot to continue KANU the same way with Uhuru, he bolted with all the young turks.

I see opportunism there. Loads of it. I am unsure how this meant he had betrayed the stuff he was fighting for: democracy, new constitution, devolution, etc. Perhaps an explanation/examples would help.

To be fair, I was in primary school and not the least bit interested in RAO, Moi or anyone in the world of politics, so my memory is fuzzy on the details. I just don't get how that alone is supposed to undercut everything else he did and I've been following him since 2002 elections and seen no signs of the lurking evil behind the man we are supposed to fear.

[vooke]

I don't see how he compromised "all he stood for" just by joing government: How exactly did he do that? Just be being in government? Did he become a Moi sycophant while in Govt? Did he start fighting democracy and the quest for a new constitution? What did he actually do to destroy what he had been fighting for those few years he was in govt?

He joined KANU as a quick route to the presidency. Sure. Anybody with two brain cells to rub together can see that. Moi's impending exit created a fantabulous opportunity. Since he didn't become president, we have no idea what kind of things he intended to do as president. And when Moi came up with the plot to continue KANU the same way with Uhuru, he bolted with all the young turks.

I see opportunism there. Loads of it. I am unsure how this meant he had betrayed the stuff he was fighting for: democracy, new constitution, devolution, etc. Perhaps an explanation/examples would help.

To be fair, I was in primary school and not the least bit interested in RAO, Moi or anyone in the world of politics, so my memory is fuzzy on the details. I just don't get how that alone is supposed to undercut everything else he did and I've been following him since 2002 elections and seen no signs of the lurking evil behind the man we are supposed to fear.

Understood.

Ok here's the short version.
Moi was a bad boy and second liberation the entailed opposing him. Explains why all the liberation heroes were anti-Moi and the Kanu guys ended up lefting the party.

Baba after leaving detention was on the right side of history joining opposition politics. He fared well between 92 and 97 especially in pursuing Goldenberg scandal in parliament.

There's no way any reformer was going to make any meaningful progress while in Kanu as that was the status quo.

Babu's spin to his shameful joining Kanu was that he went to reforms the party from inside bla bla and he left when it proved impossible. We all know that's a fat lie as he was perfectly at ease with all its xcesses. He honestly believed Moi would anoint him as Kanu candidate in 2002 elections. Moi took his sweet time meandering all over prompting George Saitoti to lament 'there comes a time....'

The cue to left Kanu evidently tells you what took him there.

I must say that his greed/rage served the country well for it fired up Kibaki's campaign though in my opinion, Kibaki's NAK was formidable as it were.

I also think since leaving Kanu he has redeemed himself.

Reason that won't go away is because it is a constant reminder that Babu has frailties you see in politicians so we should temper our expectations. Yes, temper our expectations of the man.

[Kichwa]

I don't see how he compromised "all he stood for" just by joing government: How exactly did he do that? Just be being in government? Did he become a Moi sycophant while in Govt? Did he start fighting democracy and the quest for a new constitution? What did he actually do to destroy what he had been fighting for those few years he was in govt?

He joined KANU as a quick route to the presidency. Sure. Anybody with two brain cells to rub together can see that. Moi's impending exit created a fantabulous opportunity. Since he didn't become president, we have no idea what kind of things he intended to do as president. And when Moi came up with the plot to continue KANU the same way with Uhuru, he bolted with all the young turks.

I see opportunism there. Loads of it. I am unsure how this meant he had betrayed the stuff he was fighting for: democracy, new constitution, devolution, etc. Perhaps an explanation/examples would help.

To be fair, I was in primary school and not the least bit interested in RAO, Moi or anyone in the world of politics, so my memory is fuzzy on the details. I just don't get how that alone is supposed to undercut everything else he did and I've been following him since 2002 elections and seen no signs of the lurking evil behind the man we are supposed to fear.

Understood.

Ok here's the short version.
Moi was a bad boy and second liberation the entailed opposing him. Explains why all the liberation heroes were anti-Moi and the Kanu guys ended up lefting the party.

Baba after leaving detention was on the right side of history joining opposition politics. He fared well between 92 and 97 especially in pursuing Goldenberg scandal in parliament.

There's no way any reformer was going to make any meaningful progress while in Kanu as that was the status quo.

Babu's spin to his shameful joining Kanu was that he went to reforms the party from inside bla bla and he left when it proved impossible. We all know that's a fat lie as he was perfectly at ease with all its xcesses. He honestly believed Moi would anoint him as Kanu candidate in 2002 elections. Moi took his sweet time meandering all over prompting George Saitoti to lament 'there comes a time....'

The cue to left Kanu evidently tells you what took him there.

I must say that his greed/rage served the country well for it fired up Kibaki's campaign though in my opinion, Kibaki's NAK was formidable as it were.

I also think since leaving Kanu he has redeemed himself.

Reason that won't go away is because it is a constant reminder that Babu has frailties you see in politicians so we should temper our expectations. Yes, temper our expectations of the man.

[vooke]

I don't see how he compromised "all he stood for" just by joing government: How exactly did he do that? Just be being in government? Did he become a Moi sycophant while in Govt? Did he start fighting democracy and the quest for a new constitution? What did he actually do to destroy what he had been fighting for those few years he was in govt?

He joined KANU as a quick route to the presidency. Sure. Anybody with two brain cells to rub together can see that. Moi's impending exit created a fantabulous opportunity. Since he didn't become president, we have no idea what kind of things he intended to do as president. And when Moi came up with the plot to continue KANU the same way with Uhuru, he bolted with all the young turks.

I see opportunism there. Loads of it. I am unsure how this meant he had betrayed the stuff he was fighting for: democracy, new constitution, devolution, etc. Perhaps an explanation/examples would help.

To be fair, I was in primary school and not the least bit interested in RAO, Moi or anyone in the world of politics, so my memory is fuzzy on the details. I just don't get how that alone is supposed to undercut everything else he did and I've been following him since 2002 elections and seen no signs of the lurking evil behind the man we are supposed to fear.

Understood.

Ok here's the short version.
Moi was a bad boy and second liberation the entailed opposing him. Explains why all the liberation heroes were anti-Moi and the Kanu guys ended up lefting the party.

Baba after leaving detention was on the right side of history joining opposition politics. He fared well between 92 and 97 especially in pursuing Goldenberg scandal in parliament.

There's no way any reformer was going to make any meaningful progress while in Kanu as that was the status quo.

Babu's spin to his shameful joining Kanu was that he went to reforms the party from inside bla bla and he left when it proved impossible. We all know that's a fat lie as he was perfectly at ease with all its xcesses. He honestly believed Moi would anoint him as Kanu candidate in 2002 elections. Moi took his sweet time meandering all over prompting George Saitoti to lament 'there comes a time....'

The cue to left Kanu evidently tells you what took him there.

I must say that his greed/rage served the country well for it fired up Kibaki's campaign though in my opinion, Kibaki's NAK was formidable as it were.

I also think since leaving Kanu he has redeemed himself.

Reason that won't go away is because it is a constant reminder that Babu has frailties you see in politicians so we should temper our expectations. Yes, temper our expectations of the man.

Yessir,
He currently is pushing our democratic space to the max evidenced by the constant headaches he gives the incumbency. That's what I meant by redeeming himself. I can't imagine an opposition-less GoK.

[MOON Ki]

Whether Rail & Co are the same or different from Uhuruto & Co does not matter so much as what either party does or would do with power.   So, rather than simply insisting that the one side must surely be better than the other on the basis that they are different sides,  a better argument might to be put forth (for whichever side one supports) their concrete ideas, policies, plans, ... that would deal with corruption, crappy government services, lack of food security, etc. and change the lives of Kenyans.   In the absence of such---with either side seemingly focused solely on power---"they are all the same" is not entirely unreasonable.   

[RV Pundit]

Why waste time on a man whose kaput...Raila is done.

[Empedocles]

Whether Rail & Co are the same or different from Uhuruto & Co does not matter so much as what either party does or would do with power.   So, rather than simply insisting that the one side must surely be better than the other on the basis that they are different sides,  a better argument might to be put forth (for whichever side one supports) their concrete ideas, policies, plans, ... that would deal with corruption, crappy government services, lack of food security, etc. and change the lives of Kenyans.   In the absence of such---with either side seemingly focused solely on power---"they are all the same" is not entirely unreasonable.

Exactly.

That's the crucial point every single rabid support of either coalition never bothers thinking about.

[Empedocles]

Why waste time on a man whose kaput...Raila is done.

He trying another desperate move for nusu:

https://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2017/11/10/how-nasa-wants-kenya-to-be-divided_c1667387

It's never wise to underestimate stupidity.

[Dear Mami]

I find some positions here very naive when we are back to fighting for fundamentals. It's just a more elaborate "economy before institutions" argument. What does it matter which fancy policies any side comes up with to show Kenyans when we are dealing with issues like preventing the slide to dictatorship, the death of independent institutions and the new constitution and credible elections? Sometimes it seems to me it's a simple cop-out to take such "neutral" positions in times like these: You avoid making an emotional investment so you don't risk disappointment in the event of failure and you can just sit back, get on a moral pedestal and criticize everyone else. Sometimes it's also that some are embarrassed to openly support the side they are actually rooting for and so they hide behind a false neutrality.

[Nefertiti]

The dispute is about validity of the presidential elections. The rest - corruption, devolution, Canaan, etc - is campaign material. The Supreme Court will rule shortly and we will see how genuine the clamor for "institutions" and "rule of law" is.

[MOON Ki]

I find some positions here very naive when we are back to fighting for fundamentals. It's just a more elaborate "economy before institutions" argument. What does it matter which fancy policies any side comes up with to show Kenyans when we are dealing with issues like preventing the slide to dictatorship, the death of independent institutions and the new constitution and credible elections? Sometimes it seems to me it's a simple cop-out to take such "neutral" positions in times like these: You avoid making an emotional investment so you don't risk disappointment in the event of failure and you can just sit back, get on a moral pedestal and criticize everyone else. Sometimes it's also that some are embarrassed to openly support the side they are actually rooting for and so they hide behind a false neutrality.

[vooke]

Whether Rail & Co are the same or different from Uhuruto & Co does not matter so much as what either party does or would do with power.   So, rather than simply insisting that the one side must surely be better than the other on the basis that they are different sides,  a better argument might to be put forth (for whichever side one supports) their concrete ideas, policies, plans, ... that would deal with corruption, crappy government services, lack of food security, etc. and change the lives of Kenyans.   In the absence of such---with either side seemingly focused solely on power---"they are all the same" is not entirely unreasonable.   

[MOON Ki]

I'm happy to let the Opposition try theirs.   What are they?

[MOON Ki]

The dispute is about validity of the presidential elections. The rest - corruption, devolution, Canaan, etc - is campaign material. The Supreme Court will rule shortly and we will see how genuine the clamor for "institutions" and "rule of law" is.

Thanks for clarifying that. I thought it was about people wanting power, which is why I asked what they plan to do with that power that would help the citizens.