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[Nefertiti]

Kichwa my point was Odinga is no saint and your support of him is not a standard for progressive politics. He's just another selfish politician after power by all means.

Kenya with a new progressive constitution does not need new reforms. Let alone a transitional government or a kangaroo people's assembly. All our institutions are new literally! And those calling for their overhaul were squarely involved in crafting them These autocratic losers need to retire or fight another day.

[Dear Mami]

Kichwa has never claimed Raila was a saint. No one ever has. The closest I've seen of such weird claims re politicians is the suggestion that one Arap Mashamba would a fine benevolent dictator make.

[Empedocles]

Kichwa has never claimed Raila was a saint. No one ever has. The closest I've seen of such weird claims re politicians is the suggestion that one Arap Mashamba would a fine benevolent dictator make.

True, Kichwa hasn't.

But others have, well, gone overboard:

But I fear Ruto by far more than Raila as president.

[Dear Mami]

Kichwa has never claimed Raila was a saint. No one ever has. The closest I've seen of such weird claims re politicians is the suggestion that one Arap Mashamba would a fine benevolent dictator make.

True, Kichwa hasn't.

But others have, well, gone overboard:

But I fear Ruto by far more than Raila as president.

You will find cookie sorts like that everywhere. Ive seen enough uthamaki dribble to make one puke over the past year. Thing is, you folk like to make declarations that RAila is this boogeyman only Kyuks and such seem to have the magic to see. And then you accuse others of swallowing prpaganda blindly which is just ironic. Please give me examples of this great evil so I may appreciate this special fear. The man is no saint and most Kenyans can see: But he has PROVEN his progressive credentials by blood and toil over a long time before the nation's eye and that is why he has won a huge following well beyond his tribal cocoon unlike Arapa Mashamba and the tipsy one.

So when you guys simply make declarations of faith that he's just as bad as the rest without giving him the chance to lead and then when people who have been following politics for 15 years simply dont swallow that for the simple reason that they have not seen it, and then you accuse them of lack of independence (as opposed to your supposed objectivity) all you doing is demanding that others replace their prejudices with yours. There's no objectivity or independence to brag about here.

[vooke]

Kichwa has never claimed Raila was a saint. No one ever has. The closest I've seen of such weird claims re politicians is the suggestion that one Arap Mashamba would a fine benevolent dictator make.

True, Kichwa hasn't.

But others have, well, gone overboard:

But I fear Ruto by far more than Raila as president.

You will find cookie sorts like that everywhere. Ive seen enough uthamaki dribble to make one puke over the past year. Thing is, you folk like to make declarations that RAila is this boogeyman only Kyuks and such seem to have the magic to see. And then you accuse others of swallowing prpaganda blindly which is just ironic. Please give me examples of this great evil so I may appreciate this special fear. The man is no saint and most Kenyans can see: But he has PROVEN his progressive credentials by blood and toil over a long time before the nation's eye and that is why he has won a huge following well beyond his tribal cocoon unlike Arapa Mashamba and the tipsy one.

So when you guys simply make declarations of faith that he's just as bad as the rest without giving him the chance to lead and then when people who have been following politics for 15 years simply dont swallow that for the simple reason that they have not seen it, and then you accuse them of lack of independence (as opposed to your supposed objectivity) all you doing is demanding that others replace their prejudices with yours. There's no objectivity or independence to brag about here.

[Kichwa]

A constitution is just paper if it is not defended by men and women of integrity and an informed citizenry.  The progressive constitution on its own will not prevent men like Ruto from creating an electoral autocracy which would make Kenyan elections a forgone conclusion in favor of certain people for eaons. If you are satisfied with that direction Kenya is taking where supreme courts cannot meet a quorum because of intimidation and   the legislature as an appendage of the executive branch; a Kenya where Ruto feel comfortable promising us that the elections of 2022 and 2027 are a forgone conclusion and where Ruto is also parading our dear leader for 2032, then more power to you. I have noticed that you that you have decided to sweep such concerns under the rug and is making "they are all bad leaders" arguments instead. Such arguments are designed to protect the status quo and I do not expect them for people who want to change or reform things.  What I can assure you if that is that if we do not manage to change that trajectory then we will not be in the same country by 2022.

Kichwa my point was Odinga is no saint and your support of him is not a standard for progressive politics. He's just another selfish politician after power by all means.

Kenya with a new progressive constitution does not need new reforms. Let alone a transitional government or a kangaroo people's assembly. All our institutions are new literally! And those calling for their overhaul were squarely involved in crafting them These autocratic losers need to retire or fight another day.

[Dear Mami]

This is a much fairer (yes, objective) depiction of the man. None of that boogeyman rubbish Empedocles appears to have swallowed with koolaid. Also none of that false (yes, FALSE) moral equivalence drawn with Arap Mashamba or kamwana. Even with these very truthful criticisms, he's still by orders of magnitude, a much better option. If he had become President under KANU and allowed all the reforms via KANU including new constitution I would never mind it one bit. KANU was just a party. An instrument. Before Kamwana was co-opted by the mt. Kenya dark forces he had began doing some very good work, reforming KANU in the first three years of NARC.

Being the headache RAO is, it would be very easy to get rid of him with a 50 billion bribe, just make him disappear for good. Its not like Kamwana would mind. That this has not happened simply makes me place my bets on him re our institutional growth over any other politician around at this time. Not because HE will do one thing to make them grow...nope! All he has to do is provide the space by not interfereing. There are tonnes of reformers under NASA including many impressive Kyuks for this reason alone. They know he would ALLOW them to do their work. And that's all tjat needs to happen once you have a good foundation in laws; its an executive that does not interfere.

Ironically, it's Jubilee and friends (ancestors), that have ensured the mythical stature of Raila in Kenyan politics by bribing and intimaditing every other option into submission/compliance, making the defiant Raila stand out as some sort of otherwordly figure: simply by persistent defiance. Beggars are not choosers, and so Raila has become "Baba" to Kenya's many political beggars as the result of the elites' determination to destroy or co-opt any competitors or threats leaving him as the only formidable challenger to their plans to never let us actually become truly institutional and rule of law based.

[vooke]

This is a much fairer (yes, objective) depiction of the man. None of that boogeyman rubbish Empedocles appears to have swallowed with koolaid. Also none of that false (yes, FALSE) moral equivalence drawn with Arap Mashamba or kamwana. Even with these very truthful criticisms, he's still by orders of magnitude, a much better option.

Being the headache he is, it would be very easy to get rid of him with a 50 billion bribe, just make him disappear for good. Its not like Kamwana would mind. That this has not happened simply makes me place my bets on him re our institutional growth over any other politician around at this time. Not because HE will do one thing to make them grow...nope! All he has to do is provide the space by not interfereing. There are tonnes of reformers under NASA including many impressive Kyuks for this reason alone. They know he would ALLOW them to do their work. And that's all tjat needs to happen once you have a good foundation in laws; its an executive that does not interfere.

Ironically, it's Jubilee and frienda (ancestors), that have ensured the mythical stature of Raila in Kenyan politics by bribing and intimaditing every other option into submission/compliance, making the defiant Raila stand out as some sort of otherwordly figure: simply by persistent defiance. Beggars are not choosers, and so Raila has become "Baba" to Kenya's many political beggars as the result of the elites' determination to destroy or co-opt any competitors or threats leaving him as the only formidable challenger.

[Empedocles]

Kichwa has never claimed Raila was a saint. No one ever has. The closest I've seen of such weird claims re politicians is the suggestion that one Arap Mashamba would a fine benevolent dictator make.

True, Kichwa hasn't.

But others have, well, gone overboard:

But I fear Ruto by far more than Raila as president.

You will find cookie sorts like that everywhere. Ive seen enough uthamaki dribble to make one puke over the past year. Thing is, you folk like to make declarations that RAila is this boogeyman only Kyuks and such seem to have the magic to see. And then you accuse others of swallowing prpaganda blindly which is just ironic. Please give me examples of this great evil so I may appreciate this special fear. The man is no saint and most Kenyans can see: But he has PROVEN his progressive credentials by blood and toil over a long time before the nation's eye and that is why he has won a huge following well beyond his tribal cocoon unlike Arapa Mashamba and the tipsy one.

So when you guys simply make declarations of faith that he's just as bad as the rest without giving him the chance to lead and then when people who have been following politics for 15 years simply dont swallow that for the simple reason that they have not seen it, and then you accuse them of lack of independence (as opposed to your supposed objectivity) all you doing is demanding that others replace their prejudices with yours. There's no objectivity or independence to brag about here.

Whom exactly do you mean by "you guys"?

Again, the you're either NASA or Jubilee nonsense doesn't work with me. I'm against both coalitions, consider them both full of charlatans. Kapisch?

But you're right, rabid sycophants for both coalitions do exist, no denying that. Yet that doesn't make one or the other any better. They're both repugnant.

The subject was on Rao and that's what I was responding to.

Peace?

[Dear Mami]

vooke, possible, not probable. I mean, this struggle to get access is an uphill task to put it mildly, so to assume money is the motivator makes little sense to me. Just raise him his price. Even 100 billion. If money is it, money will make him go away.

Empedocles by "you guys" I mean people who tell us to believe without evidence that we should fear RAILA and belueve he is exactly like those caught doing bad things, despite him never actually doing that stuff. We are supposed to fear based on faith. You may hate Jubilee too but still this stance should be supported. Why is Raila supposed to be this horrible danger the rest of us have not yet seen?

[Empedocles]

vooke, possible, not probable. I mean, this struggle to get access is an uphill task to put it mildly, so to assume money is the motivator makes little sense to me. Just raise him his price. Even 100 billion. If money is it, mobey will make him go away.

Emodocles by "you guys" I mean people who tell us to belueve without evidence that we should fear RAILA and belueve he is exactly like those caught doing bad things, despite him never actually doing that stuff. We are supposed to fear based on faith. You may hate Jubilee too but still this stance should be supported. Why is Raila supposed to be this horrible danger the rest of us have not yet seen?

2007-2009 I was in the outer inner fringes of ODM. What I personally experienced convinced me that NASA, just like Jubilee, is simply another reincarnation of KANU.

Rao may (I emphasize the "may") have started out as a good guy. But the realities of our politics seduced him to the dark side, as Yoda would say.

[vooke]

A constitution is just paper if it is not defended by men and women of integrity and an informed citizenry.  The progressive constitution on its own will not prevent men like Ruto from creating an electoral autocracy which would make Kenyan elections a forgone conclusion in favor of certain people for eaons. If you are satisfied with that direction Kenya is taking where supreme courts cannot meet a quorum because of intimidation and   the legislature as an appendage of the executive branch; a Kenya where Ruto feel comfortable promising us that the elections of 2022 and 2027 are a forgone conclusion and where Ruto is also parading our dear leader for 2032, then more power to you. I have noticed that you that you have decided to sweep such concerns under the rug and is making "they are all bad leaders" arguments instead. Such arguments are designed to protect the status quo and I do not expect them for people who want to change or reform things.  What I can assure you if that is that if we do not manage to change that trajectory then we will not be in the same country by 2022.

[vooke]

vooke, possible, not probable. I mean, this struggle to get access is an uphill task to put it mildly, so to assume money is the motivator makes little sense to me. Just raise him his price. Even 100 billion. If money is it, money will make him go away.

[Dear Mami]

If RAO showed himself a friend of those in power and not such a threat and tattletale he might probably even be "given" the presidency. It has always seemed fairly obvious to me that the man wants one thing and only that thing: legacy. Stature. A name throughout the continent. Places in history books. Occasional mentions among the likes of Mandelas and such. He wants to be remembered 'bigly' as the one who did this and that, wants the praise and recognition etc etc. Vainglory. That is much much much better than people who couldnt care less about such but care only about wealth, holding it, increasing it, protecting it at all costs. Someone who wants praise and recognition will be far more open to allowing things to thrive and take the credit. He would be far less willing to allow them to "die" and earn the shame. I want that kind of shallow politician than a straight up thug who doesnt care if you remember him as Mobutu just as long as he gets to enjoy his life.

They call Kibaki a coward/softie because he did care about a name, all his other faults notwithstanding. Had he known what was gonna transpire in early 2008 he probably would not have done some things. Some in power now dont care about preserving a name and so to some, they are "brave", "tough" unlike Kifaki.

[Empedocles]

If RAO showed himself a friend of those in power and not such a threat and tattletale he might probably even be "given" the presidency. It has always seemed fairly obvious to me that the man wants one thing and only that thing: legacy. Stature. A name throughout the continent. Places in history books. Occasional mentions among the likes of Mandelas and such. He wants to be remembered 'bigly' as the one who did this and that, wants the praise and recognition etc etc. Vainglory. That is much much much better than people who couldnt care less about such but care only about wealth, holding it, increasing it, protecting it at all costs. Someone who wants praise and recognition will be far more open to allowing things to thrive and take the credit. He would be far less willing to allow them to "die" and earn the shame. I want that kind of shallow politician than a straight up thug who doesnt care if you remember him as Mobutu just as long as he gets to enjoy his life.

Isn't that what all demagogues want?

Careful, I'm not saying Rao is one.

[Dear Mami]

If RAO showed himself a friend of those in power and not such a threat and tattletale he might probably even be "given" the presidency. It has always seemed fairly obvious to me that the man wants one thing and only that thing: legacy. Stature. A name throughout the continent. Places in history books. Occasional mentions among the likes of Mandelas and such. He wants to be remembered 'bigly' as the one who did this and that, wants the praise and recognition etc etc. Vainglory. That is much much much better than people who couldnt care less about such but care only about wealth, holding it, increasing it, protecting it at all costs. Someone who wants praise and recognition will be far more open to allowing things to thrive and take the credit. He would be far less willing to allow them to "die" and earn the shame. I want that kind of shallow politician than a straight up thug who doesnt care if you remember him as Mobutu just as long as he gets to enjoy his life.

Isn't that what all demagogues want?

Careful, I'm not saying Rao is one.

They dont all need it. Some just want power and money. Full stop. Recognition is not that necessary although it would be nice. All politicians want simething for themselves and from where I stand, I judge those would be better for me who need to look good (which will motivate them to do some good things or at least avoid very bad things) than those who couldnt care less if they look like lil Kim of N. Korea as long as they get their way. They may both die and go to the same hell but they will not rule the same way.

[Empedocles]

If RAO showed himself a friend of those in power and not such a threat and tattletale he might probably even be "given" the presidency. It has always seemed fairly obvious to me that the man wants one thing and only that thing: legacy. Stature. A name throughout the continent. Places in history books. Occasional mentions among the likes of Mandelas and such. He wants to be remembered 'bigly' as the one who did this and that, wants the praise and recognition etc etc. Vainglory. That is much much much better than people who couldnt care less about such but care only about wealth, holding it, increasing it, protecting it at all costs. Someone who wants praise and recognition will be far more open to allowing things to thrive and take the credit. He would be far less willing to allow them to "die" and earn the shame. I want that kind of shallow politician than a straight up thug who doesnt care if you remember him as Mobutu just as long as he gets to enjoy his life.

Isn't that what all demagogues want?

Careful, I'm not saying Rao is one.

They dont all want it. Some just want power and money. Full stop. Recognition is not that necessary although it would be nice. All politicians want simething for themselves and from where I stand, I judge those would be better for me who need to look good (which will motivate them to do some good things or at least avoid very bad things) than those who couldnt care less if they look like lil Kim of N. Korea as long as they get their way. They may both die and go to the same hell but they will not rule the same way.

Well put.

[vooke]

If RAO showed himself a friend of those in power and not such a threat and tattletale he might probably even be "given" the presidency. It has always seemed fairly obvious to me that the man wants one thing and only that thing: legacy. Stature. A name throughout the continent. Places in history books. Occasional mentions among the likes of Mandelas and such. He wants to be remembered 'bigly' as the one who did this and that, wants the praise and recognition etc etc. Vainglory. That is much much much better than people who couldnt care less about such but care only about wealth, holding it, increasing it, protecting it at all costs. Someone who wants praise and recognition will be far more open to allowing things to thrive and take the credit. He would be far less willing to allow them to "die" and earn the shame. I want that kind of shallow politician than a straight up thug who doesnt care if you remember him as Mobutu just as long as he gets to enjoy his life.

They call Kibaki a coward/softie because he did care about a name, all his other faults notwithstanding. Had he known what was gonna transpire in early 2008 he probably would not have done some things. Some in power now dont care about preserving a name and so to some, they are "brave", "tough" unlike Kifaki.

[Empedocles]

If RAO showed himself a friend of those in power and not such a threat and tattletale he might probably even be "given" the presidency. It has always seemed fairly obvious to me that the man wants one thing and only that thing: legacy. Stature. A name throughout the continent. Places in history books. Occasional mentions among the likes of Mandelas and such. He wants to be remembered 'bigly' as the one who did this and that, wants the praise and recognition etc etc. Vainglory. That is much much much better than people who couldnt care less about such but care only about wealth, holding it, increasing it, protecting it at all costs. Someone who wants praise and recognition will be far more open to allowing things to thrive and take the credit. He would be far less willing to allow them to "die" and earn the shame. I want that kind of shallow politician than a straight up thug who doesnt care if you remember him as Mobutu just as long as he gets to enjoy his life.

They call Kibaki a coward/softie because he did care about a name, all his other faults notwithstanding. Had he known what was gonna transpire in early 2008 he probably would not have done some things. Some in power now dont care about preserving a name and so to some, they are "brave", "tough" unlike Kifaki.

Exactly what I meant when I wrote he was seduced. At the time he joined Moi, as Sec Gen of KANU no less and a cabinet minister to boot, that's when he became seriously loaded.

[Kichwa]

The problem I have with this argument that "they are all the same" is that it is deceptively coined  to appear neutral but its ultimate effect is to maintain the status quo and therefore I do not consider it neutral but a clever and a dishonest support for the jubilee government.  Those who make this argument cleverly pretend to agree with us on the diagnosis of the problems that Kenya has but when we suggest a change in leadership they quickly pounce on demonizing the opposition and calling them all kinds of names to discredit them as alternatives to the current leaders. I am more comfortable with the honesty of RV Pundit in his support of this regime warts and all.  For example, RV pundit is honest enough to admit publicly that this regime will go to the extent of forcing another SCOK lack of quorum  if it believes it that it  may lose the current petitions challenging the October 26, 2017 elections.  I therefore appreciate RV pundits open and honest representation of the jubilee regime than the dishonest argument that "they are all the same- so let us keep the status quo and move on".

If RAO showed himself a friend of those in power and not such a threat and tattletale he might probably even be "given" the presidency. It has always seemed fairly obvious to me that the man wants one thing and only that thing: legacy. Stature. A name throughout the continent. Places in history books. Occasional mentions among the likes of Mandelas and such. He wants to be remembered 'bigly' as the one who did this and that, wants the praise and recognition etc etc. Vainglory. That is much much much better than people who couldnt care less about such but care only about wealth, holding it, increasing it, protecting it at all costs. Someone who wants praise and recognition will be far more open to allowing things to thrive and take the credit. He would be far less willing to allow them to "die" and earn the shame. I want that kind of shallow politician than a straight up thug who doesnt care if you remember him as Mobutu just as long as he gets to enjoy his life.

They call Kibaki a coward/softie because he did care about a name, all his other faults notwithstanding. Had he known what was gonna transpire in early 2008 he probably would not have done some things. Some in power now dont care about preserving a name and so to some, they are "brave", "tough" unlike Kifaki.

Exactly what I meant when I wrote he was seduced. At the time he joined Moi, as Sec Gen of KANU no less and a cabinet minister to boot, that's when he became seriously loaded.