Dejection in NASA after yesterday's statement

[Nefertiti]

MOON Ki, Thanks for the honesty. Now a quick one: In a hypothetical "People's Republic", do you see them singing kum ba yah in the Canaan or just another Animal Farm. What is more likely?

[Empedocles]

I want MOON Ki's take on this sentiment and the outright absolution of Wanjiku. He is the standard bearer.

Dear Robina:

The idea that Kenyans would elect better leaders if it were not for rigging is an interesting one.    Terminator also adds that "Local elections have been generally reflective of voters wishes".   So, have Kenyans been electing better leaders at that level---MCAs, MPs, and so forth?   If so, why has devolution produced local governments that resemble the national government---in terms of the scoundrels in office, the thievery, the incompetence?    If not, what reason is there to believe that Kenyans who do not practice proper judgement at that level will suddenly do so at the national level?

Let us consider an issue that cuts across all levels.  Most Kenyans seem to agree that corruption is a major problem in Kenya.   Yet, as I have noted earlier, the last "major" anti-corruption demonstration in Kenya attracted about only 30 people, half of them Boniface Mwangi and other NGO types on their "day-job", in a city of millions.    That ought to tell you something, and you can look at the results of the elections, at all levels.   If corruption does not really bother voters at the lower levels, why should we believe that it will really bother them at the national level?  And where are the good leaders at the national level expected to come from?

Kadame9 poses a question:

The human character is fickle and who knows weather if Kadame wielded power she would not make Kagame look like a castrated bull?

One cannot definitely know.   But one can still try to make a choice based on some reasonable criteria: integrity and other aspects of character, past performance that might be related to the position (and, in general, the ability to deliver), the potential for future performance, concrete ideas, policies and plans, and so forth.   

During past elections, I read some of what was put out in the written media, heard some of what was put out in TV performances, and so forth.   Not much, but some.   A question to someone who followed a great deal more: to what extent do Kenyans consider and discuss such factors.   To what extent do they determine choices on elections-day? If one simply views voting as just a punt, then one should expect the outcome that most punters get in the end.

In about another year, Kenyans will, as usual,  be wailing about the "selfish, rotten, thieving bastards" that occupy legislative offices  and promising to chuck them out at the next elections.     Those are ones that are "generally reflective of voters wishes".   So, who should be "held responsible" for the fact that they are in office, passing legislation and doing what-not?

The answer as George Carlin once put it:

"Now, there's one thing you might have noticed I don't complain about:  politicians.
Everybody complains about politicians. Everybody says they suck.
Well, where do people think these politicians come from?
They don't fall out of the sky.
They don't pass through a membrane from another reality.
They come from American parents and American families, American homes, American schools, American churches, American businesses and American universities, and they are elected by American citizens.
This is the best we can do folks. This is what we have to offer.
It's what our system produces: Garbage in, garbage out.
If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're going to get selfish, ignorant leaders. Term limits ain't going to do any good; you're just going to end up with a brand new bunch of selfish, ignorant Americans.
So, maybe, maybe, maybe, it's not the politicians who suck.
Maybe something else sucks around here... like, the public.
Yeah, the public sucks.
There's a nice campaign slogan for somebody: 'The Public Sucks. F*ck Hope.' "

[MOON Ki]

MOON Ki, Thanks for the honesty. Now a quick one: In a hypothetical "People's Republic", do you see them singing kum ba yah in the Canaan or just another Animal Farm. What is more likely?

It's an interesting idea ... for this month.   Ask me again in a month's time.

[Dear Mami]

But Kenyans in general since 2002 tend to fire non-performing politicians, don't they? The turn over rate every election cycle at the lower level is always incredibly high (barring more recent computerized shenanigans we can't be sure of). So I find your assessment unfair or at least incomplete. There may be many reasons they many not turn up for a Bonnie Mwangi led demonstration, including the lack of conviction that it would be effective and therefore worth the beating that often accompanies such things. They may also be simply resolved to firing the thieving govt on election day instead, believing their vote will count. The idea that Kenyans just prefer bad governance and corruption, like they have an aversion to better service delivery and improved living standards is frankly out there. There are no such humans. The Kenyan is just as selfish as everyone else.

[yulemsee]

Nasa governors and county legislatures have been asked to support these "asseblies". This will be the first point of failure, governors wan't to eat in peace for the next 5 years, and so do MCAs, if they help form them, they will just fill them with their henchmen

[vooke]

[MOON Ki]

But Kenyans in general since 2002 tend to fire non-performing politicians, don't they? The turn over rate every election cycle at the lower level is always incredibly high (barring more recent computerized shenanigans we can't be sure of).

They fire them and then replace them with a similar lot, who then behave in exactly the same ways as. (See my last paragraph above.) Every five years.  It's seems to me an odd way to go about doing things, which is why what I wrote above is about the bases on which the new lots are elected.   

And here's something about the latest "new-and-improved" lot: all the makings of a disaster.    The stunt they just pulled on election laws shows that Uhuru and Ruto will not have to work too hard to f**k the country; they now have a very "proactive" legislature (given to them by Wanjiku) to help with new "initiatives".   Times will be interesting.

There may be many reasons they many not turn up for a Bonnie Mwangi led demonstration, including the lack of conviction that it would be effective and therefore worth the beating that often accompanies such things. They may also be simply resolved to firing the thieving govt on election day instead, believing their vote will count.

In Kenya corruption never gets punished in the voting booth.    Just take a look at the results in terms  of who gets voted in.   Whenever you hear a Kenyan say he won't vote anyone in because of corruption, you can be sure that the candidate is on the other side (at whatever level).

The idea that Kenyans just prefer bad governance and corruption, like they have an aversion to better service delivery and improved living standards is frankly out there. There are no such humans. The Kenyan is just as selfish as everyone else.

Did anyone put forth such an idea?   Who, where and when? Is the failure to act when and how one should necessarily equivalent to a fondness for one's circumstances? Is pointing out such a failure necessarily equivalent to putting forth the idea that ...

Here's a little story for you: Tomorrow I'm having a tooth pulled out.   It has been a real annoyance for quite some time, but I couldn't be bothered to go to a dentist ... I managed to "stumble along"; had I gone earlier I might have save the tooth.   I wonder what my dentist's "idea" was when he suggested that I should  take better care of my teeth and act when and as necessary.   That  I prefer bad, painful teeth to good ones?  It's an interesting thought.  Anyway, the tooth is now a painful wreck, and I absolutely must have something done about it.   

Maybe I am wrong in my views.    Maybe it has nothing to do with the citizens.   Maybe the day will come when the eaters will, on their own "steam", wake up one day and say "aha! finally, we are full! let's now stop" ... and the citizens thereafter start enjoying the sort of leadership and services they deserve.  Just like that. 

Or maybe a national great leader will suddenly emerge, set things right, and lead people to wherever.   Considering that Kenyans never elect politicians on bases that facilitate the rise to the top of upright, competent people---which is why one can right now be sure that the candidates for national office (including presidential) in 2022 will be no more than a rogues galley----said great leader will have the emerge from the dust of the NE desert or from the depths of one of our lakes.   Who knows.

Or maybe when enough pain has been felt, real changes will start.  We'll have to wait and see, I guess.

[Dear Mami]

@MOONKI, it's just a general impression I get from these debates, I admit I may be wrong. But it often feels like what's implied is that something is inherently wrong with Kenyans themselves. Like the corruption demonstration: We could look for other reasons than that Kenyans just don't care about corruption but we go straight there. In any case, I think it most reasonable to assume that Kenyans fire non-performers for reasons of non-performing. I think it stretches the imagination beyond its natural elasticity to imagine they fire them after hiring them for reasons other than dissatisfaction with their performance in the preceding term. Many times the new hires are brand new and untested, while old hands though tainted may promise to do a better job than has been done in the preceding 5 years, so they take their shot with them. But I'd be interested to know what other reasons those who think these politicians get fired for other reasons have in mind? I know it's a hit and miss and sometimes indefensible choices are made but considering I am not even sure some of these were actually elected in the first place, I'd rather stick to the first line of reasoning.

[Kichwa]

Kadame,  I think we all agree on the diagnosis.  The argument is about the treatment and therefore we use the argument that your treatment is wrong because you are not getting the diagnosis correct. Most Kenyans agree that we are going the wrong direction to some extent even Pundit who think we are just fine believe that somethings need to be changed and that all we need is Ruto's presidency will be fine.

@MOONKI, it's just a general impression I get from these debates, I admit I may be wrong. But it often feels like what's implied is that something is inherently wrong with Kenyans themselves. Like the corruption demonstration: We could look for other reasons than that Kenyans just don't care about corruption but we go straight there. In any case, I think it most reasonable to assume that Kenyans fire non-performers for reasons of non-performing. I think it stretches the imagination beyond its natural elasticity to imagine they fire them after hiring them for reasons other than dissatisfaction with their performance in the preceding term. Many times the new hires are brand new and untested, while old hands though tainted may promise to do a better job than has been done in the preceding 5 years, so they take their shot with them. But I'd be interested to know what other reasons those who think these politicians get fired for other reasons have in mind? I know it's a hit and miss and sometimes indefensible choices are made but considering I am not even sure some of these were actually elected in the first place, I'd rather stick to the first line of reasoning.

[Nefertiti]

We know the 3rd world is more corrupt than the developed one and that this contributes to poor leadership and slow development. I have never bothered with the diagnosis for this - except to surmise it as the state of our evolution. My prefered treatment would be to outsource the leadership of key organs to those further evolved than ourselves - for our own good. The white man. This is why I find no qualm in KQ or Safaricom or some other big Kenyan firm hiring expats. The good job is for our own good.

It is the idea that secession or NASA would solve anything that I dismiss. NARC took over from Moi and the nonsense continued unabated. It is a good thing the pretense called reforms has been abandoned and the true grievance revealed as the Kikuyu-Kalenjin ping pong. The two tribes have the advantage of numbers and our ingrained tribalism plays to that. Kichwa has worked hard to decry the tyranny of numbers but the reality is ugly. I think the secession debate is likely to end up as more devolution or federalism - I prefer to be the global standard of 40% as in US, Germany, etc. - which will assuage the tribal feeling of the minorities. This will not in any way stop the corruption and incompetence - just federate it. Which is OK to reduce the bickering.

Now of course outsourcing government to mzungu is a pipe dream. My quest has been to comprehend the dire state of the African. This shows up in many places. Even in the US where black people have lived for decades, you will not catch them inventing anything or running mega enterprise. They are the fringe players in the economy. Instead they are still fighting for their place - their "rights" - and need tokenism to make it. They believe they are "marginalized" by institutional racism. They have nothing to say about Africa - where the white man left 50 years ago but is now poorer and corrupter than ever.

Alot has been said here and elsewhere about the African state of evolution. From the hot equatorial sun to backward religiosity. How about those who grew up in the west? Why don't we have big African inventors or billionaires out there?

I ran by this discussion.

Is it possible to be as successful as Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, or Elon Musk as a black man in America?
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-to-be-as-successful-as-Steve-Jobs-Bill-Gates-or-Elon-Musk-as-a-black-man-in-America

[Nefertiti]

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-to-be-as-successful-as-Steve-Jobs-Bill-Gates-or-Elon-Musk-as-a-black-man-in-America

Is it possible to be as successful as Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, or Elon Musk as a black man in America?

32 Answers

[Nefertiti]

(Edited to add: someone in the comments just pointed out Elizabeth Holmes, who is amazing.)

Elizabeth Holmes is, of course, the disgraced CEO of Theranos.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-elizabeth-holmes-theranos-net-worth-20160606-story.html

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

We know the 3rd world is more corrupt than the developed one and that this contributes to poor leadership and slow development. I have never bothered with the diagnosis for this - except to surmise it as the state of our evolution. My prefered treatment would be to outsource the leadership of key organs to those further evolved than ourselves - for our own good. The white man. This is why I find no qualm in KQ or Safaricom or some other big Kenyan firm hiring expats. The good job is for our own good.

It is the idea that secession or NASA would solve anything that I dismiss. NARC took over from Moi and the nonsense continued unabated. It is a good thing the pretense called reforms has been abandoned and the true grievance revealed as the Kikuyu-Kalenjin ping pong. The two tribes have the advantage of numbers and our ingrained tribalism plays to that. Kichwa has worked hard to decry the tyranny of numbers but the reality is ugly. I think the secession debate is likely to end up as more devolution or federalism - I prefer to be the global standard of 40% as in US, Germany, etc. - which will assuage the tribal feeling of the minorities. This will not in any way stop the corruption and incompetence - just federate it. Which is OK to reduce the bickering.

Now of course outsourcing government to mzungu is a pipe dream. My quest has been to comprehend the dire state of the African. This shows up in many places. Even in the US where black people have lived for decades, you will not catch them inventing anything or running mega enterprise. They are the fringe players in the economy. Instead they are still fighting for their place - their "rights" - and need tokenism to make it. They believe they are "marginalized" by institutional racism. They have nothing to say about Africa - where the white man left 50 years ago but is now poorer and corrupter than ever.

Alot has been said here and elsewhere about the African state of evolution. From the hot equatorial sun to backward religiosity. How about those who grew up in the west? Why don't we have big African inventors or billionaires out there?

I ran by this discussion.

Is it possible to be as successful as Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, or Elon Musk as a black man in America?
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-to-be-as-successful-as-Steve-Jobs-Bill-Gates-or-Elon-Musk-as-a-black-man-in-America

Robina,

I know it's not about race.  But racism in the US is as real as Philando Castile's rotting corpse and his scot-free murderer.  It is not made up.  I think you can make your anti-black arguments without denying some well established facts.  While it may be rare, what we see during such incidents always shines a light on the ugly underbelly of America; you just know the murderer will be acquitted.  By a jury of people the kind you will run into at the gym and have friendly exchanges with.  No matter how egregious the offence.  If Robina finds herself on the business end of a rogue cop gun, she can count on her white friends to excuse the murderer.

Black lives don't matter.  If your lives don't matter, you can rest assured you are getting a short end of the stick relative to any similarly placed white person(male or female) in every other sphere of life, bar perhaps sports where because folks are comfortable with blacks as entertainment, there is no racial bias.

But you are starting to remind me of this black so-called race realist https://www.amren.com/news/2015/10/i-am-black-and-a-race-realist/.

[Dear Mami]

Robina,

I know it's not about race.  But racism in the US is as real as Philando Castile's rotting corpse and his scot-free murderer.  It is not made up.  I think you can make your anti-black arguments without denying some well established facts.  While it may be rare, what we see during such incidents always shines a light on the ugly underbelly of America; you just know the murderer will be acquitted.  By a jury of people the kind you will run into at the gym and have friendly exchanges with.  No matter how egregious the offence. If Robina finds herself on the business end of a rogue cop gun, she can count on her white friends to excuse the murderer.

Black lives don't matter.  If your lives don't matter, you can rest assured you are getting a short end of the stick relative to any similarly placed white person(male or female) in every other sphere of life, bar perhaps sports where because folks are comfortable with blacks as entertainment, there is no racial bias.

But you are starting to remind me of this black so-called race realist https://www.amren.com/news/2015/10/i-am-black-and-a-race-realist/.

Absolutely. I used to think racism-whiners were noise-makers until I moved to a very liberal white environment (presumably the least racist, therefore) and saw wonders with my own two eyes.

[Nefertiti]

I am much more disturbed by the tribalism and misgovernance at home than racism out here. I work with white men mostly. The Marina is all-white. Perhaps this blinds me.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Robina,

I think you have it wrong on tyranny of numbers.  Kalenjin and GEMA do not form a majority.  Not even close.  The major tribes in the NASA coalition are more.  2009 census.

[Nefertiti]

Robina,

I think you have it wrong on tyranny of numbers.  Kalenjin and GEMA do not form a majority.  Not even close.  The major tribes in the NASA coalition are more.  2009 census.

The MOAS is a dead horse.