Back to SCOK?

[Kichwa]

Ok.  Now tell us how you want to solve this problem.

The Canaan BS that Raila has propagated is not only downright stupid but borders on insanity.

Before I continue, note very carefully that I personally find Uhuruto to be imbeciles of the highest order, on par with Raila.

Raila has been, exactly like Uhuruto, singing of delivering Kenya to Canaan. Sounds good until one realise that Raila, just like Uhuruto, Kibaki, et al have only continued with the colonial system we inherited from the British (divide and conquer). None of them has ever released a comprehensive action plan on how to uplift the comman wanainchi from abject poverty, which can only be brought about by industrialization. All their plans are based on big BS infrastructure projects, a very well known conduit for stealing, among other dumb ideas. History is full of such stupidity, which a five minute google search would reveal.

Singing democracy, new constitution, etc is a waste of time, though it sounds good. Unfortunately, it wouldn't feed us and give us jobs. It simply can't. So long as they have no idea what a constitution entails and no sense of what it means, it's all a waste of time.

Don't even get me started on the fact that both coalitions are littered with downright thugs of the highest order, with very questionable sources of riches (i.e. corruption and full use of the beloved patronage system). These thugs who support either of the "leaders" are more than happy to keep the status quo, the patronage system which made them rich. Why would they want to change it when it's been very good for them? Why agitate and foster the rule of law which would see them quickly locked up for life?

Now these two  numb-nuts, in a bid to secure exclusive access to dwindling resources for themselves and their minions, are pitting unwitting Kenyans against one another. If or when Kenya explodes, they'll be far far away, safe and secure with their millions plundered from the combatants.

Follow the carrot.

[Nefertiti]

Empedocles are you sure you meant to post that on this forum? Here everything starts and ends with "reforms".

[Empedocles]

Ok.  Now tell us how you want to solve this problem.

The Canaan BS that Raila has propagated is not only downright stupid but borders on insanity.

Before I continue, note very carefully that I personally find Uhuruto to be imbeciles of the highest order, on par with Raila.

Raila has been, exactly like Uhuruto, singing of delivering Kenya to Canaan. Sounds good until one realise that Raila, just like Uhuruto, Kibaki, et al have only continued with the colonial system we inherited from the British (divide and conquer). None of them has ever released a comprehensive action plan on how to uplift the comman wanainchi from abject poverty, which can only be brought about by industrialization. All their plans are based on big BS infrastructure projects, a very well known conduit for stealing, among other dumb ideas. History is full of such stupidity, which a five minute google search would reveal.

Singing democracy, new constitution, etc is a waste of time, though it sounds good. Unfortunately, it wouldn't feed us and give us jobs. It simply can't. So long as they have no idea what a constitution entails and no sense of what it means, it's all a waste of time.

Don't even get me started on the fact that both coalitions are littered with downright thugs of the highest order, with very questionable sources of riches (i.e. corruption and full use of the beloved patronage system). These thugs who support either of the "leaders" are more than happy to keep the status quo, the patronage system which made them rich. Why would they want to change it when it's been very good for them? Why agitate and foster the rule of law which would see them quickly locked up for life?

Now these two  numb-nuts, in a bid to secure exclusive access to dwindling resources for themselves and their minions, are pitting unwitting Kenyans against one another. If or when Kenya explodes, they'll be far far away, safe and secure with their millions plundered from the combatants.

Follow the carrot.

Read history, for example how South Korea did it.

That's a start.

[Empedocles]

Empedocles are you sure you meant to post that on this forum? Here everything starts and ends with "reforms".

[emoji23]

[Nefertiti]

Empo that Asian Tigers story... don't be bothered. Apparently democracy trumples all, and we must reform and re-reform the system - until everyone is "happy". So first thing right now we need the parliamentary system to top up the 80% majimbo. After this we will turbocharge to prosperity like the Japanese. Welcome to democracy

[Empedocles]

Empo that Asian Tigers story... don't be bothered. Apparently democracy trumples all, and we must reform and re-reform the system - until everyone is "happy". So first thing right now we need the parliamentary system to top up the 80% majimbo. After this we will turbocharge to prosperity like the Japanese. Welcome to democracy

Correcto-mondo.

We'll just keep on reforming, even both (or more) of the "new countries" after the hoped for secession.

We're constantly making up new definitions of democracy as we plod along, without an inkling of what democracy really means.

Fascinating.

[MOON Ki]

The Canaan BS that Raila has propagated is not only downright stupid but borders on insanity.

Before I continue, note very carefully that I personally find Uhuruto to be imbeciles of the highest order, on par with Raila.

Raila has been, exactly like Uhuruto, singing of delivering Kenya to Canaan. Sounds good until one realise that Raila, just like Uhuruto, Kibaki, et al have only continued with the colonial system we inherited from the British (divide and conquer). None of them has ever released a comprehensive action plan on how to uplift the comman wanainchi from abject poverty, which can only be brought about by industrialization. All their plans are based on big BS infrastructure projects, a very well known conduit for stealing, among other dumb ideas. History is full of such stupidity, which a five minute google search would reveal.

Singing democracy, new constitution, etc is a waste of time, though it sounds good. Unfortunately, it wouldn't feed us and give us jobs. It simply can't. So long as they have no idea what a constitution entails and no sense of what it means, it's all a waste of time.

Don't even get me started on the fact that both coalitions are littered with downright thugs of the highest order, with very questionable sources of riches (i.e. corruption and full use of the beloved patronage system). These thugs who support either of the "leaders" are more than happy to keep the status quo, the patronage system which made them rich. Why would they want to change it when it's been very good for them? Why agitate and foster the rule of law which would see them quickly locked up for life?

Now these two  numb-nuts, in a bid to secure exclusive access to dwindling resources for themselves and their minions, are pitting unwitting Kenyans against one another. If or when Kenya explodes, they'll be far far away, safe and secure with their millions plundered from the combatants.

Follow the carrot.

+1

That seems clear enough.   But better not tell it to the True Believers, on either side.

[Kichwa]

The floor is yours Empedocles, tell us what democracy is-the country needs it.

Empo that Asian Tigers story... don't be bothered. Apparently democracy trumples all, and we must reform and re-reform the system - until everyone is "happy". So first thing right now we need the parliamentary system to top up the 80% majimbo. After this we will turbocharge to prosperity like the Japanese. Welcome to democracy

Correcto-mondo.

We'll just keep on reforming, even both (or more) of the "new countries" after the hoped for secession.

We're constantly making up new definitions of democracy as we plod along, without an inkling of what democracy really means.

Fascinating.

[GeeMail]

The Canaan BS that Raila has propagated is not only downright stupid but borders on insanity.

Before I continue, note very carefully that I personally find Uhuruto to be imbeciles of the highest order, on par with Raila.

Raila has been, exactly like Uhuruto, ]singing of delivering Kenya to Canaan. Sounds good until one realise that Raila, just like Uhuruto, Kibaki, et al have only continued with the colonial system we inherited from the British (divide and conquer). None of them has ever released a comprehensive action plan on how to uplift the comman wanainchi from abject poverty, which can only be brought about by industrialization. All their plans are based on big BS infrastructure projects, a very well known conduit for stealing, among other dumb ideas. History is full of such stupidity, which a five minute google search would reveal.

Singing democracy, new constitution, etc is a waste of time, though it sounds good. Unfortunately, it wouldn't feed us and give us jobs. It simply can't. So long as they have no idea what a constitution entails and no sense of what it means, it's all a waste of time.

Don't even get me started on the fact that both coalitions are littered with downright thugs of the highest order, with very questionable sources of riches (i.e. corruption and full use of the beloved patronage system). These thugs who support either of the "leaders" are more than happy to keep the status quo, the patronage system which made them rich. Why would they want to change it when it's been very good for them? Why agitate and foster the rule of law which would see them quickly locked up for life?

Now these two  numb-nuts, in a bid to secure exclusive access to dwindling resources for themselves and their minions, are pitting unwitting Kenyans against one another. If or when Kenya explodes, they'll be far far away, safe and secure with their millions plundered from the combatants.

Follow the carrot.

Kenya needs at the moment a way of interrupting the looting, impunity, police killings and election theft. NASA represents that interruption. Afterward we can talk about North Korea etc. This moral equivalence that NASA or Raila is exactly like Jubilee is not helpful. NASA is not in power. It has no record of stealing public funds as a government in power while Jubilee has a fat file, NASA has no record of extrajudicial killings as a government in power, no record of stealing elections while Jubilee has a SCOK ruling against them. Nobody is saying NASA is a saint but they are not Jubilee.

[Empedocles]

The Canaan BS that Raila has propagated is not only downright stupid but borders on insanity.

Before I continue, note very carefully that I personally find Uhuruto to be imbeciles of the highest order, on par with Raila.

Raila has been, exactly like Uhuruto, ]singing of delivering Kenya to Canaan. Sounds good until one realise that Raila, just like Uhuruto, Kibaki, et al have only continued with the colonial system we inherited from the British (divide and conquer). None of them has ever released a comprehensive action plan on how to uplift the comman wanainchi from abject poverty, which can only be brought about by industrialization. All their plans are based on big BS infrastructure projects, a very well known conduit for stealing, among other dumb ideas. History is full of such stupidity, which a five minute google search would reveal.

Singing democracy, new constitution, etc is a waste of time, though it sounds good. Unfortunately, it wouldn't feed us and give us jobs. It simply can't. So long as they have no idea what a constitution entails and no sense of what it means, it's all a waste of time.

Don't even get me started on the fact that both coalitions are littered with downright thugs of the highest order, with very questionable sources of riches (i.e. corruption and full use of the beloved patronage system). These thugs who support either of the "leaders" are more than happy to keep the status quo, the patronage system which made them rich. Why would they want to change it when it's been very good for them? Why agitate and foster the rule of law which would see them quickly locked up for life?

Now these two  numb-nuts, in a bid to secure exclusive access to dwindling resources for themselves and their minions, are pitting unwitting Kenyans against one another. If or when Kenya explodes, they'll be far far away, safe and secure with their millions plundered from the combatants.

Follow the carrot.

Kenya needs at the moment a way of interrupting the looting, impunity, police killings and election theft. NASA represents that interruption. Afterward we can talk about North Korea etc. This moral equivalence that NASA or Raila is exactly like Jubilee is not helpful. NASA is not in power. It has no record of stealing public funds as a government in power while Jubilee has a fat file, NASA has no record of extrajudicial killings as a government in power, no record of stealing elections while Jubilee has a SCOK ruling against them. Nobody is saying NASA is a saint but they are not Jubilee.

You're being extremely selective with history.

An honest cursory glance at the main players of NASA tells a very different story, for example, Weta telling off western diplomats in 2008 at the height of the mass shooting of Luos in Kisumu. Now compare Weta's past behaviour with, say, the Ruto of today on CNN with the Ruto of 2008 gnashing his teeth in anger.

Musical chairs played by thugs in suits and we're supposed to be taking them seriously?

Really?

[bryan275]

The Canaan BS that Raila has propagated is not only downright stupid but borders on insanity.

Before I continue, note very carefully that I personally find Uhuruto to be imbeciles of the highest order, on par with Raila.

Raila has been, exactly like Uhuruto, ]singing of delivering Kenya to Canaan. Sounds good until one realise that Raila, just like Uhuruto, Kibaki, et al have only continued with the colonial system we inherited from the British (divide and conquer). None of them has ever released a comprehensive action plan on how to uplift the comman wanainchi from abject poverty, which can only be brought about by industrialization. All their plans are based on big BS infrastructure projects, a very well known conduit for stealing, among other dumb ideas. History is full of such stupidity, which a five minute google search would reveal.

Singing democracy, new constitution, etc is a waste of time, though it sounds good. Unfortunately, it wouldn't feed us and give us jobs. It simply can't. So long as they have no idea what a constitution entails and no sense of what it means, it's all a waste of time.

Don't even get me started on the fact that both coalitions are littered with downright thugs of the highest order, with very questionable sources of riches (i.e. corruption and full use of the beloved patronage system). These thugs who support either of the "leaders" are more than happy to keep the status quo, the patronage system which made them rich. Why would they want to change it when it's been very good for them? Why agitate and foster the rule of law which would see them quickly locked up for life?

Now these two  numb-nuts, in a bid to secure exclusive access to dwindling resources for themselves and their minions, are pitting unwitting Kenyans against one another. If or when Kenya explodes, they'll be far far away, safe and secure with their millions plundered from the combatants.

Follow the carrot.

Kenya needs at the moment a way of interrupting the looting, impunity, police killings and election theft. NASA represents that interruption. Afterward we can talk about North Korea etc. This moral equivalence that NASA or Raila is exactly like Jubilee is not helpful. NASA is not in power. It has no record of stealing public funds as a government in power while Jubilee has a fat file, NASA has no record of extrajudicial killings as a government in power, no record of stealing elections while Jubilee has a SCOK ruling against them. Nobody is saying NASA is a saint but they are not Jubilee.

You're being extremely selective with history.

An honest cursory glance at the main players of NASA tells a very different story, for example, Weta telling off western diplomats in 2008 at the height of the mass shooting of Luos in Kisumu. Now compare Weta's past behaviour with, say, the Ruto of today on CNN with the Ruto of 2008 gnashing his teeth in anger.

Musical chairs played by thugs in suits and we're supposed to be taking them seriously?

Really?

It could be suggested that weta is improving while Ruto is regressing. 

[RV Pundit]

Empo - you're a funny dude like moonki - we play with the cards we are dealt with - not those we desire. These cards we are dealt with because of history, nature, circumstances,even weather...etc.

Kenya find itself in the situation it is - and you cannot suggest un-realistic and unpractical solutions to the problem. Yes our politician are all corrupt and name it - but they are the best we've got - all factors considered - and we will work with them - to move the country forward or backward. The idea that some silver bullet of industralization will pull kenya out is total nonsese. Do this - as individual do it - start a small manufacturing company and get out of poverty - and that will be nice example for many to follow. Of course talk is cheap.

Kenya is not doing badly - it just need to double it's growth rate. It need to accelerate investment in public sector - roads, schools, power etc. We are already low-middle-income country - Nairobi is one of Africa shinning city - and it not all gloom -doom - on the contrary you just need to visit our neighbours to realize kenyans have worked hard and smart to be where it is - slightly better than Uganda, TZ, Rwanda, Burundi, Zambia, Congo, Ethiopia, Somalia - name them.

[Empedocles]

The Canaan BS that Raila has propagated is not only downright stupid but borders on insanity.

Before I continue, note very carefully that I personally find Uhuruto to be imbeciles of the highest order, on par with Raila.

Raila has been, exactly like Uhuruto, ]singing of delivering Kenya to Canaan. Sounds good until one realise that Raila, just like Uhuruto, Kibaki, et al have only continued with the colonial system we inherited from the British (divide and conquer). None of them has ever released a comprehensive action plan on how to uplift the comman wanainchi from abject poverty, which can only be brought about by industrialization. All their plans are based on big BS infrastructure projects, a very well known conduit for stealing, among other dumb ideas. History is full of such stupidity, which a five minute google search would reveal.

Singing democracy, new constitution, etc is a waste of time, though it sounds good. Unfortunately, it wouldn't feed us and give us jobs. It simply can't. So long as they have no idea what a constitution entails and no sense of what it means, it's all a waste of time.

Don't even get me started on the fact that both coalitions are littered with downright thugs of the highest order, with very questionable sources of riches (i.e. corruption and full use of the beloved patronage system). These thugs who support either of the "leaders" are more than happy to keep the status quo, the patronage system which made them rich. Why would they want to change it when it's been very good for them? Why agitate and foster the rule of law which would see them quickly locked up for life?

Now these two  numb-nuts, in a bid to secure exclusive access to dwindling resources for themselves and their minions, are pitting unwitting Kenyans against one another. If or when Kenya explodes, they'll be far far away, safe and secure with their millions plundered from the combatants.

Follow the carrot.

Kenya needs at the moment a way of interrupting the looting, impunity, police killings and election theft. NASA represents that interruption. Afterward we can talk about North Korea etc. This moral equivalence that NASA or Raila is exactly like Jubilee is not helpful. NASA is not in power. It has no record of stealing public funds as a government in power while Jubilee has a fat file, NASA has no record of extrajudicial killings as a government in power, no record of stealing elections while Jubilee has a SCOK ruling against them. Nobody is saying NASA is a saint but they are not Jubilee.

You're being extremely selective with history.

An honest cursory glance at the main players of NASA tells a very different story, for example, Weta telling off western diplomats in 2008 at the height of the mass shooting of Luos in Kisumu. Now compare Weta's past behaviour with, say, the Ruto of today on CNN with the Ruto of 2008 gnashing his teeth in anger.

Musical chairs played by thugs in suits and we're supposed to be taking them seriously?

Really?

It could be suggested that weta is improving while Ruto is regressing.

Yes it could.

But that doesn't change the fact that Weta, just like Ruto among very many, made his money by stealing and enjoying impunity brought about by our broken system that they took advantage of.

Latter day saint? [emoji848]

[Empedocles]

Empo - you're a funny dude like moonki - we play with the cards we are dealt with - not those we desire. These cards we are dealt with because of history, nature, circumstances,even weather...etc.

Kenya find itself in the situation it is - and you cannot suggest un-realistic and unpractical solutions to the problem. Yes our politician are all corrupt and name it - but they are the best we've got - all factors considered - and we will work with them - to move the country forward or backward. The idea that some silver bullet of industralization will pull kenya out is total nonsese. Do this - as individual do it - start a small manufacturing company and get out of poverty - and that will be nice example for many to follow. Of course talk is cheap.

Kenya is not doing badly - it just need to double it's growth rate. It need to accelerate investment in public sector - roads, schools, power etc. We are already low-middle-income country - Nairobi is one of Africa shinning city - and it not all gloom -doom - on the contrary you just need to visit our neighbours to realize kenyans have worked hard and smart to be where it is - slightly better than Uganda, TZ, Rwanda, Burundi, Zambia, Congo, Ethiopia, Somalia - name them.

RV, I get it, you're pushing a narrative, just like NASA supporters.

If you've some time, have a look at at this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/5vqk2v/how_did_south_korea_become_such_a_powerhouse/de4agzb/

We're facing starvation next year, yet again.

Yes, we're doing fine.

[Nefertiti]

The people who were starving are facing floods right now. Turkana. They are least bothered by political news from Nairobi.

[Empedocles]

The people who were starving are facing floods right now. Turkana. They are least bothered by political news from Nairobi.

Too true.

Sadly, neither are any of the coalitions either, yet they want to "run" the country, promising us a brighter future, begging bowl on the ready.

[RV Pundit]

South Korea is small country of 100km by 100km - that is size of one county in kenya - and the amount of dollars and fdi they got from US - was enough to transform it anyway- and fact that it sit next to Japan - an industrial power house - make that model inapplicable to kenya.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/5vqk2v/how_did_south_korea_become_such_a_powerhouse/de4agzb/

We're facing starvation next year, yet again.

Yes, we're doing fine.

[Empedocles]

South Korea is small country of 100km by 100km - that is size of one county in kenya - and the amount of dollars and fdi they got from US - was enough to transform it anyway- and fact that it sit next to Japan - an industrial power house - make that model inapplicable to kenya.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/5vqk2v/how_did_south_korea_become_such_a_powerhouse/de4agzb/

We're facing starvation next year, yet again.

Yes, we're doing fine.

From Jomo's days, we're always, and I mean ALWAYS, looking for reasons to continue the patronage system of government. Selective ignorance of historical lessons is a major part of our many problems.

Out of curiosity, just how much (a ballpark figure suffices) has our political class siphoned out of Kenya over the last 50 years or so? Wouldn't that cash alone have been enough to transform Kenya without our well worn begging bowls?

Neither coalition wants change for wanainchi. They want the big seat and things to continue as before. That's all they understand.

[Nefertiti]

Pundit the organic growth - with GDP rate equal to population increase - will get us nowhere. The US and Japan didn't just dump $$ into S. Korea. Look at their ease-of-doing-business - I think they are top 10 for decades now. In other words they got the recipe a while back. Sony, Samsung, Hyundai, Daewoo, Ramtons, etc are all homegrown S. Korean MNCs. This is where innovation comes in. If you look at Israel you will see how our problems are kids play. Fix the infra - roads, rail, power, housing, internet,.. - and the rest is domino.

It rarely works without leapfrogs - and our dire state does not stop us from exploring this path.

[RV Pundit]

Kenya is not nigeria with oil money to siphon - there is very little to siphon here - we are talking taxes - about 20% of GDP - with maybe 10-20% of that being siphoned - so roughly we are talking about 2% of GDP being siphoned - mostly internally. Kenya is poor because it's poor.

From Jomo's days, we're always, and I mean ALWAYS, looking for reasons to continue the patronage system of government. Selective ignorance of historical lessons is a major part of our many problems.

Out of curiosity, just how much (a ballpark figure suffices) has our political class siphoned out of Kenya over the last 50 years or so? Wouldn't that cash alone have been enough to transform Kenya without our well worn begging bowls?

Neither coalition wants change for wanainchi. They want the big seat and things to continue as before. That's all they understand.