NIS vs SCOK & NASWA

[vooke]

I'm making an assumption that they would not be willing to risk being on the receiving end of an angry govt for doing something wrong. It's a rebuttable presumption in favour of sense.

If they,like you,imagine NASWA has the numbers,then the 'angry government' would be days away from extinction.

And again,the 'willing to risk' but presumes they was careless
Sense is in the brains of its what?

[Kadame7]

vooke, is there a sworn affidavit for each petition? I didn't see that in your links.

That's all I have

Let us know if you find them. In the absence of any, I'm gonna go beyond Windy's speculative theorizing and call it malicious witch-hunting. They'd better provide more than accusations on a piece of paper to justify the actions they are seeking. Indeed I heard a few days ago on a talk show of a plot in parliament to create false charges, not to remove these judges, but to smear them for future purposes.

As I said, I hope the respective tribes will not mimic Kisii in defending their own forcing the petitioner(s)  who are probably Jubilee given the NIS grade details, to back off. That way,whether you sight the affidavit,annexures bla de bla or not,JSC will get a chance to interrogate this.

In my world, unsubstantiated claims on a petition makes the judges heroes and legends as opposed to 'smear them for future purpose' because they will be disproved and the integrity,IQ and intent of the petitioner will be the focus as opposed to the judges.

That's not how the world works. Ask people who have been falsely accused of rape or pedophilia. Even false charges of corruption. I still hear "kazi kwa vijana" scandal shouted long after I saw a letter from the World Bank read to parliament denying that a single cent was lost.  This report just a few days ago: http://www.nation.co.ke/news/politics/Jubilee-MPs-plan-all-out-war-on-Judiciary-/1064-4099024-139w9xoz/index.html     It tells me the opposite of what you're saying. Unless someone comes up with some evidence, I hope everyone and not just Maasai and wakamba follow the Kisii script. I'm just waiting for something beyond these allegations themselves soon. If not...I support all protests because it would be sickening what is going on here if it is what I think it is.

[Kadame7]

I'm making an assumption that they would not be willing to risk being on the receiving end of an angry govt for doing something wrong. It's a rebuttable presumption in favour of sense.

If they,like you,imagine NASWA has the numbers,then the 'angry government' would be days away from extinction.

And again,the 'willing to risk' but presumes they was careless
Sense is in the brains of its what?

If they thought that, they would be even less likely to behave that way.

I don't get your last sentence.

[vooke]

vooke, is there a sworn affidavit for each petition? I didn't see that in your links.

That's all I have

Let us know if you find them. In the absence of any, I'm gonna go beyond Windy's speculative theorizing and call it malicious witch-hunting. They'd better provide more than accusations on a piece of paper to justify the actions they are seeking. Indeed I heard a few days ago on a talk show of a plot in parliament to create false charges, not to remove these judges, but to smear them for future purposes.

As I said, I hope the respective tribes will not mimic Kisii in defending their own forcing the petitioner(s)  who are probably Jubilee given the NIS grade details, to back off. That way,whether you sight the affidavit,annexures bla de bla or not,JSC will get a chance to interrogate this.

In my world, unsubstantiated claims on a petition makes the judges heroes and legends as opposed to 'smear them for future purpose' because they will be disproved and the integrity,IQ and intent of the petitioner will be the focus as opposed to the judges.

That's not how the world works. Ask people who have been falsely accused of rape or pedophilia. Even false charges of corruption. I still hear "kazi kwa vijana" scandal shouted long after I saw a letter from the World Bank read to parliament denying that a single cent was lost.  This report just a few days ago: http://www.nation.co.ke/news/politics/Jubilee-MPs-plan-all-out-war-on-Judiciary-/1064-4099024-139w9xoz/index.html     It tells me the opposite of what you're saying. Unless someone comes up with some evidence, I hope everyone and not just Maasai and wakamba follow the Kisii script. I'm just waiting for something beyond these allegations themselves soon. If not...I support all protests because it would be sickening what is going on here if it is what I think it is.

This is not a mere accusation, it is a petition,meaning the charge(s) will be interrogated and found either true or false or unproved. That's what makes it different.

[vooke]

I'm making an assumption that they would not be willing to risk being on the receiving end of an angry govt for doing something wrong. It's a rebuttable presumption in favour of sense.

If they,like you,imagine NASWA has the numbers,then the 'angry government' would be days away from extinction.

And again,the 'willing to risk' but presumes they was careless
Sense is in the brains of its what?

If they thought that, they would be even less likely to behave that way.

I don't get your last sentence.

We are at the deep end of guesswork. Call it sense or whatever.

[Kadame7]

This is not a mere accusation, it is a petition,meaning the charge(s) will be interrogated and found either true or false or unproved. That's what makes it different.

vooke, accusations come in the form of report kwa polisi, formal charges, suits, petitions, indictments, they can even lead to convictions which are later quashed. My point is that creating false charges can definitely smear someone. Even just saying things in public without starting any formal process will destroy people's reputation. In any case, they said there was such a plot and here is a petition. I will wait for eftense.

We are at the deep end of guesswork. Call it sense or whatever.

I meant it's a presumption that the judges, not you or me, are sensible. It's rebuttable.

[vooke]

Where the state of art anti-riot gear to fukuza these Jubilidiots rioting at Supreme Court?

[vooke]

This is not a mere accusation, it is a petition,meaning the charge(s) will be interrogated and found either true or false or unproved. That's what makes it different.

vooke, accusations come in the form of report kwa polisi, formal charges, suits, petitions, indictments, they can even lead to convictions which are later quashed. My point is that creating false charges can definitely smear someone. Even just saying things in public without starting any formal process will destroy people's reputation. In any case, they said there was such a plot and here is a petition. I will wait for eftense.

We are at the deep end of guesswork. Call it sense or whatever.

I meant it's a presumption that the judges, not you or me, are sensible. It's rebuttable.

Kadame,
In my opinion, the allegations are very specific,very clear and unambiguous unlike Ngunjiri's. I also feel they are highly provable.

Did the judges meet and maintain undeclared communication with Interested parties to the petition right before and during the petition?

The answer is either Yes or no

The other one is
What was the subject or contents of their interactions?

This is very hard unless someone eavesdropped. But the timing is reasonable ground for apprehension and whether that is sufficient to kick them out is not clear to me. Still I think it's enough to force them to resign.

Given these two clear questions are the basis of this petition,I don't see how they would tarnish any judge if proven false. The judges never had inappropriate contact.

A question for you.
Supposing contact and communication is established beyond doubt as alleged and on the alleged dates but you don't know the contents. Would you deem it inappropriate?

[bryan275]

Where the state of art anti-riot gear to fukuza these Jubilidiots rioting at Supreme Court?

Yep, those are Jaluo biased machines.  Uhuru is seriously desperate to hang onto power.  Even hired thugs have been deployed.

[gout]

Protests at Supreme Court. The war path is being laid. To get even more dirty as real thugs take charge.

[bryan275]

Protests at Supreme Court. The war path is being laid. To get even more dirty as real thugs take charge.

Secession is the only viable solution. 

[Omollo]

Thi8s crap has two purposes and one consequence

1. It seeks to give the Pro-Uthamaki forces in the JSC a majority
2. Seeks to protect Njoki Ndung'u and Ojwang (but especially the former

Chances of success: 0 (sufuri bin sufuri)

Why?
1. One can not rely on an illegality to fight an alleged illegality. The courts in Kenya are afloat with precedents on the same. Itumbi has produced call logs and basically stated that the judges were under surveillance. The call logs are illegally obtained (refer to Rawal's ruling) and therefore null and void. A court order cannot be obtained to get the same "legally" because it would be giving a stamp of legality to a crime!

2. Call logs have to be verified - meaning the accused persons have to access the server and certify that it has not been tampered with nor is it prone to such tampering before the printed record is allowed to be an exhibit.  I can't see that happening as it would probably reveal that the actual tapping/ logging was done by the NIS without warrants (another illegality)

So this is for Pundit and other propagandists to use in their attacks on the judgement.

The campaign resembles one launched in the 80s against the judiciary by Moi. It ended rather badly for Moi. He did not recover from it.

The problem in our world is whenever the government or pro-government forces attack a judge - any judge - the world perceives him to be independent and upright.

Consequence: A self defeating campaign launched by a One-Cell-Brain sub mandarin who will probably bring down Uhuru.

Am glad it has awoken all the right forces to counter it. When you are fighting someone who without any effort gets thousands of people to come to his defense.... that is a war you can't win.

Won't post to this again

[Kadame7]

A question for you.
Supposing contact and communication is established beyond doubt as alleged and on the alleged dates but you don't know the contents. Would you deem it inappropriate?

I'd have to look at the Kenyan code to see precisely, but from what I generally know about these things, it causes me to raise an eyebrow due to the timing. In general though, they should be forbidden from talking about the case before them. But if they can show they were talking about a different issue, I don't see this ALONE leading to those serious consequences you mention. Especially if it is also shown they did the same with the other side too. It might make sense in the context or be minor. For now, wacha tuone eftense of these communications. Then we can probe what they were about and the larger context.

[Kadame7]

Protests at Supreme Court. The war path is being laid. To get even more dirty as real thugs take charge.

Secession is the only viable solution.

My thoughts exactly. Tuachane tu na amani...ama namna gani?

[bryan275]

Protests at Supreme Court. The war path is being laid. To get even more dirty as real thugs take charge.

Secession is the only viable solution.

My thoughts exactly. Tuachane tu na amani...ama namna gani?

The Peoples' Republic is going to rise up from all these shenanigans.  The sad thing, had these protesters been NASA, some Jaluo seeking bullets would have already felled a few by now.

Suddenly our cops are all humane and begging rioters to stand back from the gates.  The double standard is nauseating. 

[bryan275]

What do we know about the Petitioner?  I submit that it is a well known mombasa based Nipatean.

[vooke]

Thi8s crap has two purposes and one consequence

1. It seeks to give the Pro-Uthamaki forces in the JSC a majority
2. Seeks to protect Njoki Ndung'u and Ojwang (but especially the former

Chances of success: 0 (sufuri bin sufuri)

Why?
1. One can not rely on an illegality to fight an alleged illegality. The courts in Kenya are afloat with precedents on the same. Itumbi has produced call logs and basically stated that the judges were under surveillance. The call logs are illegally obtained (refer to Rawal's ruling) and therefore null and void. A court order cannot be obtained to get the same "legally" because it would be giving a stamp of legality to a crime!

2. Call logs have to be verified - meaning the accused persons have to access the server and certify that it has not been tampered with nor is it prone to such tampering before the printed record is allowed to be an exhibit.  I can't see that happening as it would probably reveal that the actual tapping/ logging was done by the NIS without warrants (another illegality)

So this is for Pundit and other propagandists to use in their attacks on the judgement.

The campaign resembles one launched in the 80s against the judiciary by Moi. It ended rather badly for Moi. He did not recover from it.

The problem in our world is whenever the government or pro-government forces attack a judge - any judge - the world perceives him to be independent and upright.

Consequence: A self defeating campaign launched by a One-Cell-Brain sub mandarin who will probably bring down Uhuru.

Am glad it has awoken all the right forces to counter it. When you are fighting someone who without any effort gets thousands of people to come to his defense.... that is a war you can't win.

Won't post to this again

Asante Omorlo.

Should innocent judges hide behind this legal dogma or should they challenge Safaricom to surrender voice and SMS logs?

NASWA could not rely on their server logs which were fake any way but they built in that to pressure IEBC to surrender the real logs. IEBC's failure to surrender them incriminated them. I'm thinking along these lines.

Why would either judges guard their logs from JSC with all their might

[vooke]

[bryan275]

The judges should lay this whole thing bare and reveal the attempts to corrupt them by Jubilee operatives.  This petition might actually be a good thing, and like others have said, it will allow for the interrogation of the allegation and full defence by the judges.

[Kichwa]

The full judgment must be very bad for them to be this desperate. Let them open the can of worms. I do not think there will be any elections sometimes soon.