Not surprised that Ocampo had ulterior motives in kenya.

[RV Pundit]

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https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2001249694/icc-what-new-email-by-ocampo-reveals

[Omollo]

The ICC maneno worked wonders for Ruto and Uhuru. If only it could be rekindled!

[RV Pundit]

I don't think so. UhuRuto were already an item as far back as 2008 when there was no ICC.

The ICC maneno worked wonders for Ruto and Uhuru. If only it could be rekindled!

[Omollo]

Pundit

Denying well established incontrovertible facts caricatures you bro. The prayers, the post hearing rallies, the publicity, the ethnic mobilization, The Raila took us to The Hague... Make sure these elections don't turn you in to Njamlik.

I don't think so. UhuRuto were already an item as far back as 2008 when there was no ICC.

The ICC maneno worked wonders for Ruto and Uhuru. If only it could be rekindled!

[RV Pundit]

You're worse than Njamlik. Of course I know what I am talking about. If you had some memory left - you'd have remember I predicted long before ICC came in 2010 - that UhuRuto would ran together. I think I made that prediction in April 2008. It was obvious that Ruto after failing to get the Deputy PM position and ability to pick ministers post-Sagana was going to split with Raila. Uhuru also was going to split from Kibaki and make his own deal with Ruto. Ruto was already out of ODM before ICC was ever mentioned. He used mau eviction initially as justification to move Kalenjin out of ODM. Then we had "NO" in the constitution which was nothing but Ruto test drive.

Politician as good as UhuRuto define issues. Issue don't define them.

Pundit

Denying well established incontrovertible facts caricatures you bro. The prayers, the post hearing rallies, the publicity, the ethnic mobilization, The Raila took us to The Hague... Make sure these elections don't turn you in to Njamlik.

[Omollo]

Pundit

Stay focused much as that seems to have become rather hard lately please try.

The issue is not what you predicted. The issue is the role of the ICC in propelling Ruto and Uhuru to high office.

I stated what I believe is a matter-of-fact; uncontested; already settled and beyond debate FACT that: The ICC maneno propelled Ruto and Uhuru to power. I would appreciate - as no doubt those reading would as well - if you restricted yourself to your position that: The ICC manenos did not play any role whatsoever in that political propulsion to power. . It is a simple enough subject, almost similar to those I used to see in Primary School: "Polygamy is better than Monogamy"

I have listed my main points upon which I rely. I would have expected that you knock down one by one with counter facts, logic and (in your case, I accept) Reason.

Instead I read mumbo jumbo (no offense intended whatsoever) and a long detour into your own recall of recent history - which cannot (some mean people might actually mouth the word "conveniently") be backed by any evidence.

I however see no reason to demand proof of what you may or may not have prophesied. It is irrelevant to this debate. So I hereby grant you and accept that you, Pundit, did predict or prophesy that Uhuru Kenyatta and Ruto will join and take power and were not taken seriously (I Omollo, on behalf of the entire Board offer the most sincere and unreserved apologies for that bit!)

Now could you now concentrate on the subject? Please!

You're worse than Njamlik. Of course I know what I am talking about. If you had some memory left - you'd have remember I predicted long before ICC came in 2010 - that UhuRuto would ran together. I think I made that prediction in April 2008. It was obvious that Ruto after failing to get the Deputy PM position and ability to pick ministers post-Sagana was going to split with Raila. Uhuru also was going to split from Kibaki and make his own deal with Ruto. Ruto was already out of ODM before ICC was ever mentioned. He used mau eviction initially as justification to move Kalenjin out of ODM. Then we had "NO" in the constitution which was nothing but Ruto test drive.

Politician as good as UhuRuto define issues. Issue don't define them.

Pundit

Denying well established incontrovertible facts caricatures you bro. The prayers, the post hearing rallies, the publicity, the ethnic mobilization, The Raila took us to The Hague... Make sure these elections don't turn you in to Njamlik.

[RV Pundit]

You're nutcase . In 2002 when it's UhuRuto where was ICC?.UhuRuto has been on cards since 2001 with Gideon always thinking it UhuruGiddy.Kibaki Tosha complicated stuff but after kibaki had completed his term you didn't rocket science to know UhuRuto would resume (it really had never ended).. against Raila,Saitoti,Kalonzo n MaDvd. As early as April 2008 - that UhuRuto were back together ---and with or without ICC --- it was obvious Uhuru and Ruto would ran together in 2013.
 
Our politics is so easy to read I sometimes wonder what the IQ of folks here is.I mean I can already see 2032. Next week Uhuru will do his 5yrs. Ruto with most likely Kiunjuri will do the next. The after that Kiunjuri takes it.

[Kadame5]

This is what my memory recalls: Justice Waki's report/recommendations/secret envelope became an issue in 2008. The debate about whether we should create an independent court or whether the names in the envelope should be fowarded to ICC prosecutor was a very hot and divisive issue already, even before Hon. Koffi Anan left the country. He advised Kibaki and Raila not to let the matter get out of the country, but Uhuru and Ruto rallied MPs to push the matter to the Hague. Anan then, having been put in a corner by Waki, proceeded to hand the envelope to ICC prosecutor on the deadline set by Justice Waki. The ICC prosecutor then waited for a local court to be set up for over a year, I think, before starting anything. By the time ICC became formally involved, this was already a hot matter in Kenya, already having been debated by parliament a few times.

[RV Pundit]

That maybe true - but those are just the motions. The real beef here is that UhuRuto had been together all the way from 2001 until 2006 (Uhuru as Chair & Ruto as Sec Gen) - when Ruto left KANU and joined ODM - Uhuru also left KANU and joined PNU. So their relationship had been on a lull for less than a year. It was obvious once coalition GoK was formed - they'd resumed what they started in 2008.

Ultimately without or with ICC - they would have found something to unite them in their quest for power. The same calculation that informed them in 2002 - is what was applied in 2013 - and now - and that is plain speak was that Uhuru has long as he has RV support would easily get GEMA support and win. Only Raila tosharing Kibaki to split GEMA votes unrivaled that plan in 2002...otherwise everyone knew Uhuru had already won 2002!

This election is one such waste of time and money - because as long as UhuRuto coalition is intact - it's unbeatable. NASA has to swallow their pride and tosha somebody that can split GEMA+Kalenjin coalition...they may have to do that in 2022...by backing say Peter Kenneth or whoever.

This is what my memory recalls: Justice Wako's report/recommendations/secret envelope became an issue in 2008. The debate about whether we should create an independent court or whether the names in the envelope should be fowarded to ICC prosecutor was a very hot and divisive issue already, even before Hon. Koffi Anan left the country. He advised Kibaki and Raila not to let the matter get out of the country, but Uhuru and Ruto rallied MPs to push the matter to the Hague. Anan then, having been put in a corner by Waki, proceeded to hand the envelope to ICC prosecutor on the deadline set by Justice Wako.

[MOON Ki]

I'd be interested to get more of the story that what is being reported in The Standard.   For example:

Read more at: https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2001249694/icc-what-new-email-by-ocampo-reveals

Does anyone have a ready link to the original statement by Bensouda or her office?

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

The authenticity of the email aside, Ocampo was not above colorful language.  I could see him saying that, without having any ulterior motive other than to cleanup the elite by remove the "bad guys".

Even if it is not a forgery, or entirely fake news, it is not definitive evidence of ulterior motives.

[MOON Ki]

The authenticity of the email aside, Ocampo was not above colorful language.  I could see him saying that, without having any ulterior motive other than to cleanup the elite by remove the "bad guys".

Even if it is not a forgery, or entirely fake news, it is not definitive evidence of ulterior motives.

True.   In any case, the facts really don't matter in such cases.   At any level, local or national, the rabble wananchi always respond "well" to "money has been poured to finish us", "external forces", etc.

[Omollo]

Who is a nut case here? Lets see:

You're nutcase .

hold on let us establish that...

In 2002 when it's UhuRuto where was ICC?.

Pundit you are telling us that in 2002 it was Uhuruto! I bet it was only you who new about it using your secret methodology?

The rest of us saw Uhuru-Mudavadi in 2002 (even though Mudavadi was not on the ticket, Uhuru announced and committed to re-appoint him. It was a pure Moi show. Ruto had just been promoted to a deputy minister and could not open his mouth in any meeting where Biwott, Kiptanui, Kanyotu, Kulei, etc planed and executed the Uhuru business.

Yet even then, Pundit (who has confessed to having earlier been in DP then joined NARC while Ruto remained in KANU as the Organizing Secretary, could see Uhuruto!

lets move on to

UhuRuto has been on cards since 2001 with Gideon always thinking it UhuruGiddy.

Again this is a rather drastic method of re-writing history in a way even George Orwell could never pull off in Animal Farm. Yours would fit seamlessly inside one of Squealer's Revised History of Animal Farm.

Kibaki Tosha complicated stuff but after kibaki had completed his term you didn't rocket science to know UhuRuto would resume (it really had never ended)..

Resume what? What was there in 2002 that would be resumed? Why was it not "resumed" or "complicated" in 2007?

against Raila,Saitoti,Kalonzo n MaDvd.

Pundit, Mudavadi was back in KANU and ran as KANU VP promised to be re-appointed by Uhuru! At no time was Uhuru in a battle against Mudavadi. Yes Saitoti, Kamotho etc decamped from KANU and never went back. Here you again display total ignorance even as you pretend to be such a genius.

As early as April 2008 - that UhuRuto were back together ---and with or without ICC --- it was obvious Uhuru and Ruto would ran together in 2013.

Any evidence of that? A symbolic act? If that happened it is your own secret. As you reveal these intimate secrets, just remember

Our politics is so easy to read I sometimes wonder what the IQ of folks here is.I mean I can already see 2032. Next week Uhuru will do his 5yrs. Ruto with most likely Kiunjuri will do the next. The after that Kiunjuri takes it.

The only way Uhuru will sit in state house is through violence. Just know it will be worse than 2007 if he carries on.

[RV Pundit]

Ma-DVD was just given that position after things went haywire with NARC - it was last ditch effort to save KANU. The plan had long back-fired. But everyone in KANU knew that UhuRuto was main deal - with clueless Gideon representing Moi interest. Even Raila knew that.

Who is a nut case here? Lets see:

You're nutcase .

hold on let us establish that...

In 2002 when it's UhuRuto where was ICC?.

Pundit you are telling us that in 2002 it was Uhuruto! I bet it was only you who new about it using your secret methodology?

The rest of us saw Uhuru-Mudavadi in 2002 (even though Mudavadi was not on the ticket, Uhuru announced and committed to re-appoint him. It was a pure Moi show. Ruto had just been promoted to a deputy minister and could not open his mouth in any meeting where Biwott, Kiptanui, Kanyotu, Kulei, etc planed and executed the Uhuru business.

Yet even then, Pundit (who has confessed to having earlier been in DP then joined NARC while Ruto remained in KANU as the Organizing Secretary, could see Uhuruto!

lets move on to

UhuRuto has been on cards since 2001 with Gideon always thinking it UhuruGiddy.

Again this is a rather drastic method of re-writing history in a way even George Orwell could never pull off in Animal Farm. Yours would fit seamlessly inside one of Squealer's Revised History of Animal Farm.

Kibaki Tosha complicated stuff but after kibaki had completed his term you didn't rocket science to know UhuRuto would resume (it really had never ended)..

Resume what? What was there in 2002 that would be resumed? Why was it not "resumed" or "complicated" in 2007?

against Raila,Saitoti,Kalonzo n MaDvd.

Pundit, Mudavadi was back in KANU and ran as KANU VP promised to be re-appointed by Uhuru! At no time was Uhuru in a battle against Mudavadi. Yes Saitoti, Kamotho etc decamped from KANU and never went back. Here you again display total ignorance even as you pretend to be such a genius.

As early as April 2008 - that UhuRuto were back together ---and with or without ICC --- it was obvious Uhuru and Ruto would ran together in 2013.

Any evidence of that? A symbolic act? If that happened it is your own secret. As you reveal these intimate secrets, just remember

Our politics is so easy to read I sometimes wonder what the IQ of folks here is.I mean I can already see 2032. Next week Uhuru will do his 5yrs. Ruto with most likely Kiunjuri will do the next. The after that Kiunjuri takes it.

The only way Uhuru will sit in state house is through violence. Just know it will be worse than 2007 if he carries on.

[Omollo]

Pundit

As you lie, remember I was in the KANU campaign entering and leaving state house at will. Cheat me about anything but 2002.

KANU was Moi and Moi was KANU. So who are these who "knew"?

Please get a grip.

I can add for free that I spend plenty of time with Uhuru. While I did not drink, I smoked and he is a chain smoker as he drinks and is an insomniac. Ruto? A man who despises drinkers? With Uhuru? in 2002?

That is the funniest thing I have heard this decade.

I will not contribute anymore to this topic.

Ma-DVD was just given that position after things went haywire with NARC - it was last ditch effort to save KANU. The plan had long back-fired. But everyone in KANU knew that UhuRuto was main deal - with clueless Gideon representing Moi interest. Even Raila knew that.

[RV Pundit]

You're a real nut case.Moi was senile.Ruto with Uhuru and Giddy were running Kanu from 2001..after dislodging Biwott, Saitoti and grps.Raila was cluelessly thinking he stood a chance.