Question on nominations to run

[Georgesoros]

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Are people involved in nominating politicians or it's a hand picked by the parties?

[Nefertiti]

Is this a rhetorical question?

By law a party can handpick candidates and they all do for some seats. e.g. ODM has handpicked Joho for Mombasa gubernatorial contest. Jubilee has handpicked Suleiman Shaban.

Otherwise primaries are held and party followers get to pick by ballot.

Some primaries are a sham because party bosses have preferred candidates. e.g. ODM preferred TJ Kajwang for Ruaraka MP in opposition to Liz Ongoro.

There are also independent candidates who do not need party sponsorship. e.g Miguna Miguna is gunning for Nairobi governor as an independent.

[Omollo]

Correction: By the time the deadline for submission of applications for ODM Governor post had expired, Joho was the only applicant. He and others who had no opponents were given direct tickets and primaries for those seats called off.

Jubilee has chosen to twist it and through the Drunkard, alleged that ODM is dishing out certificates without primaries. The entire Ethnic Media has willingly let itself be part of the propaganda.

Ongoro is a special case. Yes, Kajwang was handed the ticket when people thought Ongoro had agreed to run for a different seat or seek renomination. There was talk of Nairobi women's rep. Having been to the senate, it looked like she would not seek a national Assembly seat. She had different ideas. She asked to run for Ruaraka. She was told OK go for it and battle in the primaries.

No, she would not hear of that. She wanted a DIRECT nomination "like you had given Kajwang". The party made it clear if you want to run for Ruaraka then you go through the primaries. She refused to listen and instead raided Orange House "to collect her certificate". She all the time expected Raila to intervene and give her the ticket. These are some of the people who in the selfishness, forget that there is much more at stake than the tumbos. She got mad that Raila did not grant her favors and ^so decided to go ballistic.

I am glad that this time Raila stood firm and has done so in many cases as he resists past attempts to use him and thus cause voter revolts.

Ongor naturally went to Mudavadi - whose role as an Uhuru Project in NASA is almost coming to a close.

Is this a rhetorical question?

By law a party can handpick candidates and they all do for some seats. e.g. ODM has handpicked Joho for Mombasa gubernatorial contest. Jubilee has handpicked Suleiman Shaban.

Otherwise primaries are held and party followers get to pick by ballot.

Some primaries are a sham because party bosses have preferred candidates. e.g. ODM preferred TJ Kajwang for Ruaraka MP in opposition to Liz Ongoro.

There are also independent candidates who do not need party sponsorship. e.g Miguna Miguna is gunning for Nairobi governor as an independent.

[Georgesoros]

how come I havent heard Jubilee's Uhuru ran for top post and won by 200 votes, or Kalonzo ran for top tkt and won by 1200 votes? I see handpicking as the problem. Ballot primaries can get rid of lots of losers.

[MOON Ki]

Omollo:

You aren't very good at spinning.   

Ongoro is a special case. Yes, Kajwang was handed the ticket when people thought Ongoro had agreed to run for a different seat or seek renomination. There was talk of Nairobi women's rep. Having been to the senate, it looked like she would not seek a national Assembly seat. She had different ideas.

Are ODM nomination certificates handed out on the basis of what some unspecified people think, or talk about, or what it looks like?  Did the lady actually state that she had agreed to run for a different seat, or is that the best rigging-excuse that people can come up with?

She asked to run for Ruaraka. She was told OK go for it and battle in the primaries. No, she would not hear of that. She wanted a DIRECT nomination "like you had given Kajwang". The party made it clear if you want to run for Ruaraka then you go through the primaries. She refused to listen and instead raided Orange House "to collect her certificate". She all the time expected Raila to intervene and give her the ticket.

You contradict red above.    First, Kajwang was handed the ticket because of blah, blah, blah.  Then  Ongoro was told to go battle it in the primaries if she had ideas different from what people thought or what it looked like.  What's all that?  ODM Logic-From-Wonderland?

These are some of the people who in the selfishness, forget that there is much more at stake than the tumbos. She got mad that Raila did not grant her favors and so decided to go ballistic.

It looks like you and Raila have very short memories.   Those of us who remember Ongoro's case in 2013 are not surprised.

[Omollo]

MoonKi

I did not set out to spin. In fact I never spin. I leave that to Pundit and others.

When I wrote this, I was trying in the shortest possible time to explain the Ongoro case to someone who had asked a simple question. I forgot you are around to knit pick so that I should have dotted the eyes and crossed the tees. I was just explaining in plain language what happened.

Like Robina says and I have said before, political parties are clubs which at the end of nominations, present the voter with a package to choose wholly, partially or reject totally. The countries that mandate primaries and legislate the method and even supervise are very few indeed. Most political parties select candidates using methods that are at best opaque and worst crude as they come.

I have not contradicted myself. I was not clear enough to you, so let me try again.

1. Ongoro had NOT presented her name for Ruaraka Constituency by the end of the deadline.
2. Kajwang was handed the certificate being unopposed
3. Ongoro protests that she wanted to run for Ruaraka
4. She is allowed to file papers for Ruaraka out of time (but on account of IEBC having extended its deadline for receiving aspirants)
5. Her name entered in the list of aspirants and handed to the IEBC
6. Ongoro informed that she would fight it out with Kajwang for the Ruaraka ticket
7. Lady Ongoro refuses to fight in primaries (with Kajwang or anybody) and demands a direct ticket
8. Party rejects her demands
9. Ongoro leads demo and attacks Orange House injuring party secretariat staff
10. Disciplinary action taken fining her and barring her from primaries in Ruraka because it was determined that her choice of Ruraka was to blackmail the party leadership for other benefits
11. She "defects" to ANC though her name is NOT on the ANC list of aspirants handed to the IEBC and duly gazetted.

Now the discussions referred to were informal where she was offered various options from being renominated to running for Women's rep etc. Nominated MPs usually seek to determine their future and her case was common knowledge.

ODM is fighting in Nairobi for seats and cannot give away advantages to satisfy some egos. Incumbency is a plus in Nairobi. The party leadership felt that Kajwang stood a better chance than Ongoro. That is if at all she was ever serious about running rather than proving she wanted to run.

Omollo:

You aren't very good at spinning.   

Ongoro is a special case. Yes, Kajwang was handed the ticket when people thought Ongoro had agreed to run for a different seat or seek renomination. There was talk of Nairobi women's rep. Having been to the senate, it looked like she would not seek a national Assembly seat. She had different ideas.

Are ODM nomination certificates handed out on the basis of what some unspecified people think, or talk about, or what it looks like?  Did the lady actually state that she had agreed to run for a different seat, or is that the best rigging-excuse that people can come up with?

She asked to run for Ruaraka. She was told OK go for it and battle in the primaries. No, she would not hear of that. She wanted a DIRECT nomination "like you had given Kajwang". The party made it clear if you want to run for Ruaraka then you go through the primaries. She refused to listen and instead raided Orange House "to collect her certificate". She all the time expected Raila to intervene and give her the ticket.

You contradict red above.    First, Kajwang was handed the ticket because of blah, blah, blah.  Then  Ongoro was told to go battle it in the primaries if she had ideas different from what people thought or what it looked like.  What's all that?  ODM Logic-From-Wonderland?

These are some of the people who in the selfishness, forget that there is much more at stake than the tumbos. She got mad that Raila did not grant her favors and so decided to go ballistic.

It looks like you and Raila have very short memories.   Those of us who remember Ongoro's case in 2013 are not surprised.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Is this a rhetorical question?

By law a party can handpick candidates and they all do for some seats. e.g. ODM has handpicked Joho for Mombasa gubernatorial contest. Jubilee has handpicked Suleiman Shaban.

Otherwise primaries are held and party followers get to pick by ballot.

Some primaries are a sham because party bosses have preferred candidates. e.g. ODM preferred TJ Kajwang for Ruaraka MP in opposition to Liz Ongoro.

There are also independent candidates who do not need party sponsorship. e.g Miguna Miguna is gunning for Nairobi governor as an independent.

It's also chaotic because these people are fighting for their livelihoods for the next five years.  They don't know how to look after themselves outside the political system.  You deny them nomination you are telling them they literally have to earn a living for the next five years.

[Nefertiti]

Sadly you are right. The party leaders own the parties and rule them with an iron fist. Usually they handpick officials to key organs such as the NEC, election board, disciplinary body, etc. They do not tolerate dissent and in some cases have clauses in the party rulebook sanctioning them as the indisputable presidential flagbearer. This is the case in ODM for instance.

Bottomline -- Kenya is a long way off from a mature political party system. The ruling Jubilee Party is 2 years old. The official opposition ODM is 11 years old. Both are kept afloat by their owners and have no proper political leanings separate from the dominant personalities.

how come I havent heard Jubilee's Uhuru ran for top post and won by 200 votes, or Kalonzo ran for top tkt and won by 1200 votes? I see handpicking as the problem. Ballot primaries can get rid of lots of losers.

[MOON Ki]

I was trying in the shortest possible time to explain the Ongoro case to someone who had asked a simple question. I forgot you are around to knit pick so that I should have dotted the eyes and crossed the tees. I was just explaining in plain language what happened.

This plain language

Kajwang was handed the ticket when people thought Ongoro had agreed to run for a different seat or seek renomination.

is also quite clear and does not require the dotting or crossing of anything.   One would have expected the people with the final responsibility for nominations certificates to actually know and not just think.   

Like Robina says and I have said before, political parties are clubs which at the end of nominations, present the voter with a package to choose wholly, partially or reject totally. The countries that mandate primaries and legislate the method and even supervise are very few indeed. Most political parties select candidates using methods that are at best opaque and worst crude as they come.

I understand  all that, and I have no problems with any of it.   Nevertheless, if a party claims that candidates will be selected through a fair and transparent process, then that is what it should give its members; this is especially important in ODM's case, given its hopelessly rigged primaries in 2013.    Beyond that, while I am not an ODM member, I am interested in such matters because they give me an idea of how Rails works (and would work as president).   I imagine that to be the case with others too. Oh, he also rigged-in his man in my home-home area back in 2013; we weren't amused.

1. Ongoro had NOT presented her name for Ruaraka Constituency by the end of the deadline.
2. Kajwang was handed the certificate being unopposed
3. Ongoro protests that she wanted to run for Ruaraka
4. She is allowed to file papers for Ruaraka out of time (but on account of IEBC having extended its deadline for receiving aspirants)
5. Her name entered in the list of aspirants and handed to the IEBC
6. Ongoro informed that she would fight it out with Kajwang for the Ruaraka ticket
7. Lady Ongoro refuses to fight in primaries (with Kajwang or anybody) and demands a direct ticket
8. Party rejects her demands
9. Ongoro leads demo and attacks Orange House injuring party secretariat staff
10. Disciplinary action taken fining her and barring her from primaries in Ruraka because it was determined that her choice of Ruraka was to blackmail the party leadership for other benefits
11. She "defects" to ANC though her name is NOT on the ANC list of aspirants handed to the IEBC and duly gazetted.

The revised story is definitely much better than the original.  Of course, at the moment, we have no independent and helpful other source (e.g. an ODM official) that has even suggested anything that would come close to confirming the revision.   The events in your list certainly occurred; your novel contribution seems to be in the ordering.  (And that, by the way, is not nit-picking; it is very significant.)    I know that all news outlets in Kenya are controlled by Jubilee-NIS----according to you anyway---but I have to work with whatever is at hand.  Having gone through a number of newspaper articles, video reports, etc., let me point out just a couple of things:

(a) At the point at which you place (2), relative to (9) we have, for example, this report on the day of the incident:

Though the party explained that there had been no direct nomination in Ruaraka, Ms. Ongoro still insisted that she had been sidelined.

https://www.kenyans.co.ke/news/odm-executive-director-oduor-ongwen-assaulted-rowdy-supporters-18047

(According to the article, the protest was about an alleged plot to bar Ongoro from vying in Ruaraka.   Guess what the final outcome was?)

(b) Take a look at the order of your (4) and (9).    Some articles suggest that the inclusion of her name was the fruit of the mayhem she instigated:

She later emerged from a meeting with the ODM Secretariat which confirmed that her name and that of incumbent Ruaraka MP were on the party lists forwarded to the IEBC ahead of the nominations slated to begin next week.

http://allafrica.com/stories/201704060023.html

And so on, and so forth.

I'm not saying it is untrue---I don't know one way or anther as yet---but this story  that she was fighting for a direct nomination seems quite new and unknown to most.

Given ODM's history in such matters, I'm more inclined to believe what Robina has written above.  What you then add to your list doesn't really help much.  If anything, it merely confirms that Ongoro was fighting a battle that had already been lost, right from the git-go.   This:

The party leadership felt that Kajwang stood a better chance than Ongoro. 

As noted above, it is the party's to front candidates of its choosing.  But, as also noted above, certain types of actions have implications.

Yet more confirmation of Ongoro's "position" came via ODM's "disciplinary committee".  Both her and Obado were fined for causing mayhem, but only Ongoro was told to go vie elsewhere.   That even though the violence in the Obado event was such that it sent you rushing here to "reveal" an attempt to "assassinate" Joho!

That is if at all she was ever serious about running rather than proving she wanted to run.

What do her actions since then tell you?

[Omollo]

I really can't get get in to the Ongoro issue. The papers confirm that she was allowed to run in Ruaraka but through primaries. Why she thought that it was not good enough to have her name as a contestant and caused more mayhem is beyond me. I have told you that my information was that she wanted a direct nomination and refused to run against Kajwang.

I can assume she feared losing (or being rigged out as she would have said) and opted to make more demands for a ticket.

Like I said the party wants more nairobi seats. Dropping Kajwang would mean losing incumbency and the ODM candidate being on the same footing as all the other candidates. It is likely the ODM Party in Nairobi may have wanted her elsewhere. The Women's rep seat was vacant until Passaris came from JP to lay claim. But Ongoro would have beaten her in primaries in my opinion.

My conclusion after ALL this back and forth: She wanted to blackmail the party in to handing her a free seat - like the last election.

The bottom line is that I believe her name has been gazetted by ODM not ANC. I think it was too late to remove it.

Last kabisa: These are the people who give the party a bad name. They believe they have a check off card to seats in the party. They abuse their closeness to the party leader to the extent that it harms the party. I am pleased that Raila has stayed away from many of these wrangles despite being pulled to get involved. He has not interfered in Busia where Ojaamong is battling with Otuoma.

[MOON Ki]

The papers confirm that she was allowed to run in Ruaraka but through primaries. Why she thought that it was not good enough to have her name as a contestant and caused more mayhem is beyond me.

See my comments on the little matter of the timeline.  In particular, the confirmation that she would be allowed to run apparently came after her protests and did not last long: for probably the first time in its history, ODM found it "necessary" to discipline  promoters of violence, to whom it has hitherto turned a blind eye.  With a very "fortunate" outcome!!    And far from simply stating that at the time there were legitimate reasons to give Kajwang direct nomination, as you claim, what was dished up instead were denials.  In fact, even right now, I have yet to hear of any official statement confirming any sort of direct nomination.   Still, your timeline was a pretty good go at it.   

My conclusion after ALL this back and forth: She wanted to blackmail the party in to handing her a free seat - like the last election.

Yes, the last elections.   We remember that one.  You, on the other hand, seem to have forgotten that the party did in fact try to give her a "free seat", and she turned it down.  The seat (nomination) was Kajwang's in Ruaraka, and she refused to accept what Kajwang had already got fairly!!!

[Omollo]

Political parties maximize their advantages.

I think there is nothing new or more I can say about this. You are clearly convinced and stable in your position. Trying to say anymore would amount to trying to convert you to a reality you clearly object to.

The facts remain as I have stated. If she wanted to run in Ruaraka on an ODM ticket (which you say she refused last time) she could easily do it. Her name is entered and gazetted (from the information in the public domain). She is an ODM aspirant scheduled for primaries in Ruaraka. What more could an aspirant ask for?

The papers confirm that she was allowed to run in Ruaraka but through primaries. Why she thought that it was not good enough to have her name as a contestant and caused more mayhem is beyond me.

See my comments on the little matter of the timeline.  In particular, the confirmation that she would be allowed to run apparently came after her protests and did not last long: for probably the first time in its history, ODM found it "necessary" to discipline  promoters of violence, to whom it has hitherto turned a blind eye.  With a very "fortunate" outcome!!    And far from simply stating that at the time there were legitimate reasons to give Kajwang direct nomination, as you claim, what was dished up instead were denials.  In fact, even right now, I have yet to hear of any official statement confirming any sort of direct nomination.   Still, your timeline was a pretty good go at it.   

My conclusion after ALL this back and forth: She wanted to blackmail the party in to handing her a free seat - like the last election.

Yes, the last elections.   We remember that one.  You, on the other hand, seem to have forgotten that the party did in fact try to give her a "free seat", and she turned it down.  The seat (nomination) was Kajwang's in Ruaraka, and she refused to accept what Kajwang had already got fairly!!!

[MOON Ki]

Trying to say anymore would amount to trying to convert you to a reality you clearly object to.

The reality that has you seeing NIS spies behind every bush?   No, I don't have much use for that one.   

The facts remain as I have stated. If she wanted to run in Ruaraka on an ODM ticket (which you say she refused last time) she could easily do it. Her name is entered and gazetted (from the information in the public domain). She is an ODM aspirant scheduled for primaries in Ruaraka. What more could an aspirant ask for?

That is truly bizarre.    You seem to have already forgotten that the party has barred her from running in Ruaraka.

Simple: That the party not bar her.

[Georgesoros]

As long as party bosses control everything that goes on in the country and that is wrong. Everyone needs to go through the electoral process.

[Omollo]

you seeing NIS spies behind every bush

Am not the only one seeing the NIS everywhere and frankly I begin to really wonder when you launch such a spirited defense of the NIS here. You choose to introduce the NIS in this issue when clearly there is no basis for it. Had I for example stated that the NIS was behind Ongoro's actions, then I would understand your out of the blue sky defense of the murderous organizations responsible for torture, Extra judicial killings, political assassinations and political meddling with the budget that can run Burundi for a year! I am told some of that money is paid to scholars to help the NIS in various ways. I have yet to confirm that but some strange actions cause me to wonder indeed!

That is truly bizarre.    You seem to have already forgotten that the party has barred her from running in Ruaraka:
Ongoro having been gazetted as an aspirant is legally free to vie in Ruaraka primaries. As per the law, only a High Court verdict can remove her from that list. Once ODM placed her name for gazetting, it lost the power to withdraw or amend it. Now I stand to be corrected but under those conditions, Ongoro is not barred or "removed" despite what may be said by party apparatchiks or media. You should know that.

On the other hand I don't see how she will run on ANC having been gazetted by ODM and NOT ANC. If the IEBC chooses to enforce its regulations and the law, she would be walking on thin ice. She would be liable for removal in an election petition. I am just saying.

NB: When you explain to me why the NIS needs such a huge budget every year and what they use it for, I will stop seeing them not just behind every bush but in between lecture theatres and lecturers offices.

Trying to say anymore would amount to trying to convert you to a reality you clearly object to.

The reality that has you seeing NIS spies behind every bush?   No, I don't have much use for that one.   

The facts remain as I have stated. If she wanted to run in Ruaraka on an ODM ticket (which you say she refused last time) she could easily do it. Her name is entered and gazetted (from the information in the public domain). She is an ODM aspirant scheduled for primaries in Ruaraka. What more could an aspirant ask for?

That is truly bizarre.    You seem to have already forgotten that the party has barred her from running in Ruaraka.

Simple: That the party not bar her.

[Omollo]

The citizens are free to prescribe party primaries to be held for all parties on the same day or so. When that does not happen the party rules and prejudices take over. One cannot expect democracy in political parties. It is not a rule.

Do I agree? May be? I think there is already excessive legislative interference in party matters. For example why should parties obtain signatures and members from prescribed number of regions? Why must there be a minimum number of members?

Parties offer a package composed of candidates and a manifesto. Like a buffet, take it or leave it.

As long as party bosses control everything that goes on in the country and that is wrong. Everyone needs to go through the electoral process.

[MOON Ki]

Had I for example stated that the NIS was behind Ongoro's actions, then I would understand your out of the blue sky defense of the murderous organizations responsible for torture, Extra judicial killings, political assassinations and political meddling with the budget that can run Burundi for a year!

I think you have now completely lost it.    My contributions to this exchange ends here.

[Omollo]

It is not like I am inventing facts. You stated that I am "seeing NIS spies behind every bush". That means I am imagining, fabricating, conjuring up, fantasizing or even hallucinating. On the contrary you imply that there is no such thing. It is akin to rebuking a psychotic patient who claims to hear voices (of God) that there is no such thing. Such rebukes condescend in nature and seek to cast the patient as well, insane!

You cannot pretend that the NIS is active in politics at home. Whether commissioning polls, financing candidates, sabotaging others, arranging demos, hiring and deploying a huge online army of bots to harass and intimidate pro opposition netters etc.

Raila, Wetangula, Kalonzo and many other politicians have named the NIS in one or other of the activities I have mentioned.

So for you to come here and try to sanitize the NIS and then when called out act the aggrieved party casting me as unreasonable in my response is adding insult to injury. There was NO EXCUSE for you to mention the NIS in this debate and in the form you did. The thread is about Nominations and has veered to Ongoro.

Let me repeat: The Opposition is fight Uhuru Kenyatta who has deployed all the machinery, instruments and tools of The State of Kenya. Apart from the NIS here are the others involved:

KRA: Is now being used to freeze opposition figures bank accounts, impose high taxes and bar their companies from operations. Cars and other equipment meant for use by the opposition are being held at ports and border posts with the intention being delay. The same treatment is NOT extended to pro-Jubilee persons and companies

KPA: Working with KRA above with similar targets

KAA and Immigration: Denying entry to persons coming in to the country to assist the opposition. In some cases deporting those already in the country using flimsy excuses. KAA handing over personal details to the NIS and others in pursuit of this common goal.

I can go on and on. If you think that is smoke behind a bush, please knock yourself out.

 

Trying to say anymore would amount to trying to convert you to a reality you clearly object to.

The reality that has you seeing NIS spies behind every bush?   No, I don't have much use for that one.   

The facts remain as I have stated. If she wanted to run in Ruaraka on an ODM ticket (which you say she refused last time) she could easily do it. Her name is entered and gazetted (from the information in the public domain). She is an ODM aspirant scheduled for primaries in Ruaraka. What more could an aspirant ask for?

That is truly bizarre.    You seem to have already forgotten that the party has barred her from running in Ruaraka.

Simple: That the party not bar her.

[Nefertiti]

Omollo the touchy feely. I have an Arsenal-worshipping bff... too emotionally invested in the game, and getting fingers burnt. Even RV Pundit handles you with kid gloves...

You're too paranoid over NIS, Uhuru and Gema. They are not ethereal and incumbents with all these machineries have been beaten before. Moi 02, Kibaki 07, etc. Under the right conditions anyone will get into the Sate House.

[Georgesoros]

The current system is flawed and only favors the well off. A completely new person is annihilated as soon as they stand. Parties bosses need to be selected by the common man not party bosses. Its a mafia system.

Omollo the touchy feely. I have an Arsenal-worshipping bff... too emotionally invested in the game, and getting fingers burnt. Even RV Pundit handles you with kid gloves...

You're too paranoid over NIS, Uhuru and Gema. They are not ethereal and incumbents with all these machineries have been beaten before. Moi 02, Kibaki 07, etc. Under the right conditions anyone will get into the Sate House.