Author Topic: There Goes Walmart Jobs  (Read 4507 times)

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: There Goes Walmart Jobs
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2017, 03:25:07 PM »
Moonki as obtuse as always. I am going to ignore the little details and focus on the big picture.

You forgot "nitpicking".     :D

Quote
There will probably be new jobs - but will those newly created jobs -

So jobs will still be there.    Just different.   Isn't that just the history of labour--that the nature of jobs change over time?

Quote
but rest of people will have nothing much to do

And who will do the "newly created jobs"?   Here's a question for you: Take a look at the countries that are leading in the adoption of automation---robotics and whatever.   To what extent are the total numbers of jobs in those places declining in correspondence?

Quote
I am little surprised that you're not aware of the many ideas that have been tried before to fight poverty.

One more time:  Once you get over your surprise, please tell me, and we can discuss them. Doesn't have to be gazillions; just three or four will do.

Quote
Of course you're now obsessed  with manufacturing as only way to pull folks out of poverty.

I haven't quite said "only", but never mind.  If you have better ideas, let's have them.   And, please, not $2 handouts from Aid.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38333
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: There Goes Walmart Jobs
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2017, 03:50:16 PM »
Yeah nearly forget the nit-picking. I doubt the new jobs that will come up will be enough to replace the billions of jobs that low & middle class will lose thanks to automation. most of poor/low & middle class workers in the world are farmers, factory workers,cleaners, truck drivers, truck loaders,tailors, clerks,  - name any mundane job - these jobs are facing mortal danger from information revolution that has just started - these brain dead jobs computers will do for nearly nothing - sending mass number of people back into poverty. The new jobs in robotics or software development will not be enough to replace all the walmart or china factory jobs that will disappear.We know who will be smilling - all the rich folks who have the capital to deploy - and gov - and we shall see even more acute wealth gap - the rich will become richer - and poor this time round maybe poorer.

This is already happening in the developed world - but China is now the bogey man taking all the blame - while in reality some jobs just disappeared into computer chips  - and didn't relocate to cheap labour destination. Whilst automation has fueled growth in world for last 50 yrs - improving economic efficiency and productivity to levels unimaginable 50 years ago - and growing incredible wealth for companies - it side effect will be mass unemployment as robots armed with intelligence replace humans nearly everywhere.

And hence this idea of universal income seem the only way to counter it.

Moonki as obtuse as always. I am going to ignore the little details and focus on the big picture.

You forgot "nitpicking".     :D

We are talking about a future where jobs as we know of will not exist. Self-driven cars doing taxis and driving trucks,
That future is now - it already happening. The jobs that we know of will mostly disappear everywhere - china, india or US.

Quote
There will probably be new jobs - but will those newly created jobs -

So jobs will still be there.    Just different.   Isn't that just the history of labour--that the nature of jobs change over time?

Quote
but rest of people will have nothing much to do

And who will do the "newly created jobs"?   Here's a question for you: Take a look at the countries that are leading in the adoption of automation---robotics and whatever.   To what extent are the total numbers of jobs in those places declinig in correspondence?

Quote
I am little surprised that you're not aware of the many ideas that have been tried before to fight poverty.

One more time:  Once you get over your surprise, please tell me, and we can discuss them. Doesn't have to be gazillions; just three or four will do.

Quote
Of course you're now obsessed  with manufacturing as only way to pull folks out of poverty.

I haven't quite said "only", but never mind.  If you have better ideas, let's have them.   And, please, not $2 handouts from Aid.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8783
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: There Goes Walmart Jobs
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2017, 05:12:04 PM »
Moonki as obtuse as always. I am going to ignore the little details and focus on the big picture. We are talking about a future where jobs as we know of will not exist. Self-driven cars doing taxis and driving trucks, robots working in factories & super-markets, drones diriving commercial jets, branchless banks ran entirely from some algorithm like m-shwari or mobile-money loans that in kenya annually disperse billions with little human intervention - what computer chips loaded with software (including artificial intelligence) will be able to do is only limited by your imagination.

That future will take away jobs (including manufacturing) that have driven most humans out of poverty. That future is now - it already happening. The jobs that we know of will mostly disappear everywhere - china, india or US.

There will probably be new jobs - but will those newly created jobs - replace the old stable jobs that allowed folks to raise families & live middle class life? most likely not.

The guys who own capital (rich men) will make more money from robots -than pesky factory workers for example - and gov will also make more money taxing them - but rest of people will have nothing much to do - and will be in need of some source of assured income - and this universal income seems one of the good ideas.

I am little surprised that you're not aware of the many ideas that have been tried before to fight poverty.Not really - your obtuseness is legendary.Of course you're now obsessed  with manufacturing as only way to pull folks out of poverty.

I just feel we can rely on human nature to ensure there is work to be done.  Something similar happened when people stopped eating wild fruits after they discovered farming.  The consensus then must have been that there is nothing more left to do.  Then population explosion and famines followed.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38333
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: There Goes Walmart Jobs
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2017, 05:38:06 PM »
That may true but human has to really do it fast. In the next few decades to be precise  I have seen estimate of half the jobs disappearing. So new sexier jobs need to appear soonest. I think information tech revolution is unlike any we've seen before - nothing is immune from it. It like man finally acquiring GOD like ability to create things on the fly. The disruption will be massive.
I just feel we can rely on human nature to ensure there is work to be done.  Something similar happened when people stopped eating wild fruits after they discovered farming.  The consensus then must have been that there is nothing more left to do.  Then population explosion and famines followed.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8783
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: There Goes Walmart Jobs
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2017, 05:55:39 PM »
That may true but human has to really do it fast. In the next few decades to be precise  I have seen estimate of half the jobs disappearing. So new sexier jobs need to appear soonest. I think information tech revolution is unlike any we've seen before - nothing is immune from it. It like man finally acquiring GOD like ability to create things on the fly. The disruption will be massive.
I just feel we can rely on human nature to ensure there is work to be done.  Something similar happened when people stopped eating wild fruits after they discovered farming.  The consensus then must have been that there is nothing more left to do.  Then population explosion and famines followed.

US manufacturing is at its highest level ever and with the lowest number of people involved.  The Trump supporter is an example of someone who has failed to adapt, still waiting to work in a coal mine and die of black lung.  But companies are unable to fill millions of actual jobs in areas that require a different skill set than holding a drill bit.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: There Goes Walmart Jobs
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2017, 07:05:29 PM »
The new jobs in robotics or software development will not be enough to replace all the walmart or china factory jobs that will disappear.

The fact that there will be more robots and computers does not mean that the new jobs have to be in those areas.   As it is, it is probably the case that more people spend more hours using computers in their work than people spend developing computer hardware and software.  It's like a jembe: one guy spends a couple of hours to make one, another guy spends hours and hours using it to farm. 

There's also another way to look at robots, an argument that has been put forth by some pro-robotics types.   Consider for example a factory that uses manual labour to produce bricks.    Say it produces 10,000 bricks per day.    That means a certain number of houses can be built per day and only so many people can be employed building houses .   Now replace the manual labour with industrial robots that 1,000,000 bricks per day; more people can now get to building houses.  Take the retail industry as another example.   How many jobs there rely on the fact that industrial robots are busy producing tons of a large variety of stuff to be peddled?   Or, at a "higher level": how many jobs are based on the availability of cheap electronics, produced by robots?

Quote
Self-driven cars doing taxis and driving trucks ... drones diriving commercial jets.

I think it's going to take a while---and very long while---before those do away with humans.   Right now, the pilot of a commercial plane does almost nothing, except during take-off and landing, and drone technology has shown that those don't strictly require a human being.   But how many people are prepared to board a flight without a pilot?   Similarly, I expect that "driverless" cars will actually have drivers in them; they just won't be doing much.

I just feel we can rely on human nature to ensure there is work to be done.  Something similar happened when people stopped eating wild fruits after they discovered farming.  The consensus then must have been that there is nothing more left to do.  Then population explosion and famines followed.

We already have thriving industries whose business consists primarily of catering for people with nothing to do---hospitality, entertainment, etc.---whether the "idle time" is long or short.  Historically, industrialization and the endless introduction of machines have not done much to end work ... people buy labour-saving devices (robots next) and then go to work to pay for them.  In fact many people in places with the least automation wouldn't mind being in the places with the most automation---because that's where the jobs are.   

Another thing is that ideas like universal basic income are luxuries that only the rich places can afford to imagine.  In places like Africa, the poverty-stricken masses are:

* not enjoying "unimaginable levels of economic efficiency and productivity",
* hardly in a position to afford the robots, and
* mostly have no jobs to lose.

They should be "safe" for at least another 50 years ... perhaps 100, the way things are going.    In the meantime, they should work to get to where others are right now.

If Pundit's idea is to extrapolate to, say, 200 years from now, then, to my mind, a first question is whether people will still need "income" as we now think of it.   Maybe robots will do everything that needs to be done and supply everything that needs to be supplied.   The question might then be one of the supply of robots.   Not a problem: robots will make robots, just as we procreate and therefore don't have to worry about a supply of humans.   A truly brave new world.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: There Goes Walmart Jobs
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2017, 07:27:44 PM »
US manufacturing is at its highest level ever and with the lowest number of people involved.  The Trump supporter is an example of someone who has failed to adapt, still waiting to work in a coal mine and die of black lung.  But companies are unable to fill millions of actual jobs in areas that require a different skill set than holding a drill bit.

Indeed.   Right now the US Department of Labour says that there are about 5.5 million jobs  that need filling in the USA, which is about the same number as 2 years ago:   https://www.bls.gov/jlt/news.htm   

Of manufacturing, the estimate is 3 million new jobs available over the next decade, with only 1 million of those filled with current trends.

And a place like Japan had actually better get on with robots: a low birth-rate and an aging population means that the working age population is declining signficantly---peaked around 1990---and there are now more jobs open than there are people looking for jobs.     

Not exactly end-of-jobs pictures.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline gout

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 4193
  • Reputation: 1374
Re: There Goes Walmart Jobs
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2017, 01:38:39 PM »
There is need to tax heavily the tech firms to fund social services for the poor. Kenya needs to come with ways to tax more Safaricom, MPesa, Mshwari, Google, Uber, Facebook, Twitter & Whatsapp.

The case of betting companies is a good starting point.

Quote
Eight betting companies have paid a total Sh4.7 billion in taxes over the last three years

Given the morality questions, likes of Sportpesa are doing so much in sport. They have replaced Tuskers in sponsoring nearly all sports events.

http://www.nation.co.ke/news/Betting-companies-tax-3-years-KRA/1056-3821878-973323/

This quote was meant for this thread. There is a way when I log in when in a certain thread, it jumps to another thread.

Quote
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one ~ Thomas Paine