ALL KCSE Certificates since 2003 Must be Vetted

[Globalcitizen12]

Omollo
The days only geniuses got degrees in kenya is long gone. We are in a new education era. A ksce certificate now is a useless piece of paper. As terminator mentioned private universities should not be dictated to on what grade to admit by gok. They need to come up with alternative system or exam to pick their candidates...
You still have not made clear how central benefited from chesting than let us say kisii nyanza.

[Omollo]

Omollo
The days only geniuses got degrees in kenya is long gone. We are in a new education era. A ksce certificate now is a useless piece of paper. As terminator mentioned private universities should not be dictated to on what grade to admit by gok. They need to come up with alternative system or exam to pick their candidates...

I can understand why you are celebrating the era of mediocrity. After all we now have "Bishop" Wanjiru earning her degree as has Maina Kamanda. Clearly the era of quality education is behind us and has been since 2003 when Kibaki came to power. I do not argue with that at all!

You write: " A [KCSE] certificate now is a useless piece of paper" . I can not agree with you more. Since 2003 that certificate is not worth the paper its written on. Again it all started when Kibaki came to power and got steadily worse by 2015 when 5000 students' results were cancelled:
 

You still have not made clear how central benefited from cheating than let us say kisii nyanza.

Here are the results of Mangu High school between 1989 and 2009. Pay attention to the results after Kibaki came to power: The number of As jump from 11 in 2002 to 33 = a 200% increase!!!!
 
More figures coming bro.

[MOON Ki]

I believe you are insinuating that since students get admitted and go through university and earn grades there eventually qualifying to be surgeons and lawyers then that absolves KCSE from blame and effectively means the cheats did not cheat!!!

Actually, I have not written anything on cheating.   I was mainly addressing the faulty logic in this statement: "The fact that As lead to entry to some of the most sensitive professions in the country is cause for worry."  To take what I have written and interpret it as you have only worsens the problem in the logic.

My response: There is cheating in universities too. The media quoted a university lecturer on this recently (not that we didn't already widely know). Stories of sex for grades are well known even to you unless you seek to conjure ignorance. 
i. To suggest that a person who cheated through KCPE and KCSE will suddenly stop cheating at university is a bit of a stretch.
ii. To also suggest that having gone through university and earned a degree is proof of that person not having cheated is simply preposterous

 

Nobody suggested (i) or (ii), and, once again, what you have actually done is to additional support that the problem is not not just with the KSCE grades.   

Now, let's see if you can get this, which is the point I was making: If universities did a proper job, then F students who get in with As they got from cheating would not get through.    

The idea is not that anyone will stop cheating; rather, it is that systems should be in place to stop them.   That, in fact, is what is being attempted even at the lower levels (KSCE).  And saying that universities ought to stop the fakes is, as a matter of simple logic, not the same as saying that anyone who gets through did not cheat.

Read that  all carefully.    Among other things, note that it does not condone cheating; all it says is that universities should do a better job.  Why is that important?    If universities are unable to do that, then it matters little whether the entering students have Ds or Fs.

That said, I believe you are still pursuing the already discredited line of argument that claims if a person has gone through university and earned a degree and been admitted to the roll of advocates, surgeons or engineers, then he could not possibly have cheated in KCSE or other exam.

One more time: I have not made any statement to that effect.    What I have stated is that contrary to your claim, earning a degree  and getting admission to the roll of advocates, surgeons or engineers is not merely a matter of KSCE grades.   At least it should not be.   Universities and professional bodies are what really matter.   Or should.   So, if, as you lament, fake As are filling those rolls, that's where I would start.

Your imagination is wrong. All the professional bodies insist on a minimum KCSE grade or "equivalent. In any case the admission to university prior to that would have ensured the fulfilment of that precondition.

You appear to have changed Kenyan law, which "all the professional bodies" must follow.    Let's take one example.   I refer you to the Advocates Act.  Look at Section 13, "Professional and academic qualifications".   You will note that the minimum requirement is a university degree.   You may also wish to look at the additional requirements specified in that part. 

The fact that some Kamau or Njuguna turns up with fake As opens the door to not only the university but to these professional bodies. God only knows whether the corruption in the rest of the education system has by some miracle avoided the bodies you seem to hallow and sanctify.

I do not "hallow and sanctify" anything.   What I have pointed out is the role that certain organizations have to play.

It is amazing that you would seem to suggest that KCSE is irrelevant and plays no role in the education of a surgeon who is probably now operating on some kid at Kenyatta National Hospital. I am shocked. Note that this is the reason I do not consult young doctors in Kenya especially those who sat for exams in the post Moi era.

I have not suggested anything of the sort.  Try and read a bit more carefully.   The critical part in the education of a surgeon is medical school, not secondary school, and it is the exams in the former that are really critical.  Don't confuse the admission into medical school with the education that is required.   There is also a professional body involved somewhere, and it is supposed to confirm actual competence, beyond university degree (let alone KSCE results).   A person who genuinely got As in KCSE but performs poorly in medical school and after should be more of a worry than a C who does well in both.

I have clearly demonstrated the connection between the fake grades and our institutions of higher learning. These sensitive professions are most vulnerable because they admit "the best" performing students, in our case As which turn out to be fake. In 2016 for instance, they admitted 3500. in other words all As (which we now know are fake). 

Let me try again: There are good reasons why universities and professional bodies exist between KSCE and entry into the "sensitive professions", and those two lots play a far greater role than KSCE results.   

[Omollo]

MoonKi

You are splitting hairs (not that I mind).

Actually, I have not written anything on cheating.   I was mainly addressing the faulty logic in this statement: "The fact that A's lead to entry to some of the most sensitive professions in the country is cause for worry."  To take what I have written and interpret it as you have only worsens the problem in the logic.

I captured the fact that you did not expressly address cheating. That is why among other words I have used include insinuation. When you go out of your way to appear to exonerate those who cheat by deflecting blame from cheating and cheats there are very few people who would agree with you that you are not saying anything about cheating.

Nobody suggested (i) or (ii), and, once again, what you have actually done is to additional support that the problem is not just with the KCSE grades.

 
If that is what you want to hear, let me be very clear: Like I said before, I think the attention should now be focused on Universities to stop the rot that is going on there. I believe I made that clear from the onset of this debate.

That said I acknowledge there is a problem with Primary and secondary school examinations. I also acknowledge that there is a problem with Universities and professional bodies. Not least because how come they have not caught and expelled any of these fake As. It used to be impossible for a thickhead with poor high school grades to make it beyond the first year. Perhaps (and for completely different reasons) I can conditionally agree with you in questioning how The Fake A's manage to get through university while filled with with empty heads.

Now, let's see if you can get this, which is the point I was making: If universities did a proper job, then F students who get in with As they got from cheating would not get through. 
Either it is the problem I mentioned earlier: obscurum per obscurius or you are fudging reality and hiding behind semantics. Yes you appeared to make such a point. However it was in my opinion (and how it came out) a robust defense of cheating and cheats. You in effect suggested that since these students go through university successfully, then they clearly did not cheat. Now I have a problem with that because I know for sure you are quite aware of the malignancy in those institutions. However if you now say you did not mean the foregoing (as understood) then I would agree with your current (amended) postulation.

The idea is not that anyone will stop cheating; rather, it is that systems should be in place to stop them.   That, in fact, is what is being attempted even at the lower levels (KSCE).  And saying that universities ought to stop the fakes is, as a matter of simple logic, not the same as saying that anyone who gets through did not cheat.

I partially agree because I think good upbringing with high moral values can work to prevent cheating. I know of students in some cheating schools who refused to participate in the drilling and instead opted to study. We also know of Principals who were offered exams by the cartels but refused. Some of them paid a heavy price by having their exams results "cancelled" in an act of retaliation.

Read that  all carefully.    Among other things, note that it does not condone cheating; all it says is that universities should do a better job.  Why is that important?    If universities are unable to do that, then it matters little whether the entering students have Ds or Fs.

I agree universities have a responsibility to eradicate cheating in their own exams. I also feel they should close the loopholes that allow a complete Empty Skull to go through them and earn a piece of paper which he parades around even while unable to read its contents.

One more time: I have not made any statement to that effect.    What I have stated is that contrary to your claim, earning a degree  and getting admission to the roll of advocates, surgeons or engineers is not merely a matter of KSCE grades.   At least it should not be.   Universities and professional bodies are what really matter.   Or should.   So, if, as you lament, fake As are filling those rolls, that's where I would start.

To join UoN Faculty of Law one requires KCSE with specific grades in English.
To join Kenya School of Law one requires an LLB from a recognized university.

I cannot vouch for universities outside Kenya (India for instance) when it comes to their University Admission / Entry Requirements. However the assumption is that they would require something equivalent to KCSE.

You appear to have changed Kenyan law.   Let's take one example of "all the professional bodies".   I refer to to the Advocates Act.  Look at Section 13, "Professional and academic qualifications".   You will note that the minimum requirement is a university degree.   You also wish to look at the additional requirements specified in that part.

You have confused two separate issues. I believe we were talking about Professional institutions. You have jumped one or half of it:

THE KENYA SCHOOL OF LAW ACT
No. 26 of 2012
Date of Assent: 21st September, 2012 
SECOND SCHEDULE (s. 16)
The Admission requirements will be as follows:
(a) Admission Requirements into the Advocates
Training Programme
(1) A person shall be admitted to the School if:
(a) having passed the relevant examination of any recognized university in Kenya holds, or
has become eligible for the conferment of the Bachelor of Laws Degree (LL.B) of that university; or
(b) having passed the relevant examinations of a university, university college or other institutions prescribed by the Council of Legal Education, holds or has become eligible for the conferment of the Bachelor of Laws Degree (LL.B) in the grant of that university, university college or other institution:
(i) attained a minimum entry requirements for admission to a university in Kenya; and
(ii) obtained a minimum grade B (plain) in English Language or Kiswahili and a mean grade of C (plus) in the Kenya Certificate of Secondary Education or its equivalent; or
2. has sat and passed the Pre-Bar examination set by the School.

The fact that some Kamau or Njuguna turns up with fake As opens the door to not only the university but to these professional bodies. God only knows whether the corruption in the rest of the education system has by some miracle avoided the bodies you seem to hallow and sanctify.

I do not "hallow and sanctify" anything.   What I have pointed out is the role that certain organizations have to play.

Noted

It is amazing that you would seem to suggest that KCSE is irrelevant and plays no role in the education of a surgeon who is probably now operating on some kid at Kenyatta National Hospital. I am shocked. Note that this is the reason I do not consult young doctors in Kenya especially those who sat for exams in the post Moi era.

I have not suggested anything of the sort.  Try and read a bit more carefully.   The critical part in the education of a surgeon is medical school, not secondary school; don't confuse the admission into medical school with the education that is required.   There is also a professional body involved somewhere, and it is supposed to confirm actual competence, beyond university degree (let alone KSCE results).

I strongly disagree with you. The foundation of a house is more important than the walls. A person who has a poor foundation and cheats through high school to end up in medical school should by the Grace of God never succeed to end up standing over you in a theatre. I believe character starts forming much earlier than say medical school. Clearly there would be a lot missing from the person - not least character - for him to honestly take the hippocratic oath (may be the hypocrites oath!).

I have clearly demonstrated the connection between the fake grades and our institutions of higher learning. These sensitive professions are most vulnerable because they admit "the best" performing students, in our case As which turn out to be fake. In 2016 for instance, they admitted 3500. in other words all As (which we now know are fake). 

Let me try again: There are good reasons why universities and professional bodies exist between KSCE and entry into the "sensitive professions", and those two lots play a far greater role than KSCE results.   

MoonKi get serious. These bodies you list (Universities etc) base their admission on grades. Kamau turns up with straight A's and he cannot be denied admission. There would be no legal basis whatever to deny him access to these institutions.

Kamau then proceeds to cheat his way through medical school.

There is ZERO chance of a guy who did not cheat in KCSE and ended up with a plain C knocking on the doors of Medical School.

Lest you repeat: I said Universities are the next frontier to be conquered and the rot surgically removed.

In the meantime, I propose vetting past KCSE certificates from 2003

[MOON Ki]

I captured the fact that you did not expressly address cheating. That is why among other words I have used include insinuation. When you go out of your way to appear to exonerate those who cheat by deflecting blame from cheating and cheats there are very few people who would agree with you that you are not saying anything about cheating.

Yes, I did not explicitly address cheating.   That is because the issue I was addressing was one of logical consequence---that of jumping directly from fake As to dodgy doctors without taking into account what happens in the middle.  But it is nonsensical to take that as supporting or disregarding cheating.   For the record, here it is: I absolutely and thoroughly abhor cheating in any form, and I believe action should be taken to prevent it and to punish those who engage in it.   There.    And that does not detract from anything I have written.

Either it is the problem I mentioned earlier: obscurum per obscurius or you are fudging reality and hiding behind semantics. Yes you appeared to make such a point. However it was in my opinion (and how it came out) a robust defense of cheating and cheats. You in effect suggested that since these students go through university successfully, then they clearly did not cheat.

You keep insisting on that bizarre interpretation.     Let me try one last time: If an incompetent person cheats his way into university, gets a degree in a professional field, goes through the process required to get admitted to practice in the profession, ... then the real problem lies with the universities and the relevant professional bodies---precisely because  a key part of their job is to stop such people.   That is not the same as saying, or even implying, that anyone who gets through did not cheat.   

I cannot vouch for universities outside Kenya (India for instance) when it comes to their University Admission / Entry Requirements. However the assumption is that they would require something equivalent to KCSE.

Yes, universities will require something like a KCSE; no need to quote any Act on that.    But it is bizarre to state,  or imply, that because getting a degree requires something like a KCSE, it follows that professional bodies take into account KCSE grades, in the manner you imply.    The statement "All the professional bodies insist on a minimum KCSE grade or equivalent" will get interpreted in a certain way, i.e that the required minimum educations is KCSE (or equivalent), which is certainly not the case: the professional bodies insist on a higher minimum.

You have confused two separate issues. I believe we were talking about Professional institutions.

No I have not.    What I have pointed out is that in the "sensitive professions", certain bodies are bound by law tht has something to say on educational matters.

I strongly disagree with you. The foundation of a house is more important than the walls. A person who has a poor foundation and cheats through high school to end up in medical school should by the Grace of God never succeed to end up standing over you in a theatre. I believe character starts forming much earlier than say medical school. Clearly there would be a lot missing from the person - not least character - for him to honestly take the hippocratic oath (may be the hypocrites oath!).

You are confused on this.   The real foundation is not the KCSE grades, which, as you have noted, may be obtained by cheating, although those play the obvious role.   The proper foundation is how well one is actually prepared, how well they are prepared to study and actually study, etc., and, from there, how well they do in university, how well they perform in post-graduation internships/pupilages/etc.   I will take a C at KCSE who does very well in medical school, performs very well in internships, etc. over a genuinely-earned A who barely scrapes through medical school, shows thorough incompetence in internship, etc.

If a person gets into medical school by cheating at KCSE and then manages to graduate, go through internship, and gets admitted into practice by the relevant board, the real problem is not in the KCSE!

MoonKi get serious. These bodies you list (Universities etc) base their admission on grades. Kamau turns up with straight A's and he cannot be denied admission. There would be no legal basis whatever to deny him access to these institutions.

Yes,  person with As cannot be denied admission.   But is there any basis, legal or otherwise, for insisting or assuming that the universities must pass them and give them degrees?  One more time: stop confusing admission into university with what happens at university and after.

In the meantime, I propose vetting past KCSE certificates from 2003

In the meantime, I propose that you come up with a more realistic and practical proposal.   

[Globalcitizen12]

stop cherry picking schools I am looking for Empirical evidence . We know the only two schools that got consistent results are Pangani girls and Alliance Girls High school .. I heard Maranda numbers went south.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

That's a good point.  When you think about it, KCSE is not so much a mechanism that says who can and who cannot succeed in college, as it is a cutoff device because there are limited slots.  Another way, among others, is to charge high fees for those who are "less qualified", or provide separate entry tests that a college deems important.

What am I saying?  That in fact, a lot of students that Omollo would consider too intellectually challenged to handle a university course would fare just fine if given the opportunity.

That said, I get that his main point is that there has been cheating in the award of certificates.  I agree that it is important to address that.  But it doesn't hurt to set the record straight on other points that arise.

I don't wish to be rude here. So I will let others speak for me:

These tests are used primarily to assess a student's proficiency in specific subjects such as mathematics, science, or literature....

A proctor or invigilator may also be present during the testing period to provide instructions, to answer questions, or to prevent cheating.... Grades or test scores from standardized test may also be used by universities to determine if a student applicant should be admitted into one of its academic or professional programs. For example, universities in the United Kingdom admit applicants into their undergraduate programs based primarily or solely on an applicant's grades on pre-university qualifications such as the GCE A-levels or Cambridge Pre-U.[19][20] In contrast, universities in the United States use an applicant's test score on the SAT or ACT as just one of their many admission criteria to determine if an applicant should be admitted into one of its undergraduate programs.

Graduate Management Admission Test
Predictive validity[edit]
The intended purpose of the GMAT is to predict student success in graduate business programs. According to GMAC, there is a .459 correlation (21% variance) between total GMAT scores and mid-program student grades based on data it collected between 1997 and 2004.[7]

This means a student who cheated at lower levels would most likely have to keep cheating to stay "competitive". Previous (lower level) performance impacts on higher level performance.

GMAT and GCSE, what they are and what they do, is not in dispute.  They are useful for selecting prospective students.  KCSE is also useful that way, but more so as a way to share out limited spaces.  A C in one year can serve the same purpose an A in a subsequent year would.  It all depends on the overall performance of the pool.  What is a good grade for college is going to be determined by how many people got what grades in any given year, how many slots are available for what courses.  I don't know how much of the fluctuation from year to year is due to cheating and how much is just genetic drift to abuse a term - but there have been differences in overall performance from year to year even before your cut-off period of 2003.

Now I have nothing against a poor student who undertakes remedial education to improve and reach the desired level for admission to university. However Termie would have to explain to me what a student who has scored an A in English would be doing in a remedial English language classroom. All those in such classes will be seeking to improve on their poor grade. Yet this Njuguna would already be having the best grade. What explanation would he provide?

Termie gets it all wrong. The students I am talking about have scored the best grades. They lack no opportunities. They get first refusal when it comes to all foreign scholarships (one is a PS in Transport ministry appointed by Uhuru Kenyatta). Others are working in The Ethnic Media churning out incompetent stories that ashame hard working standard seven Ugandan kids!

The reason most employers in Kenya have since 2003 preferred graduates of middle level colleges has now been unearthed. Those students you call "weak" have in fact been the strongest.

Note that already Kenya has a system in place to punish those who are less qualified:

1. GoK excludes Private school students from subsidies in an act of blatant discrimination against children by the Uhuru regime
2. Until now only those who scored highly went to government schools where they accessed subsidized education. The rest have a choice to go to government day schools and benefit from subsidies or go to private schools. The catch is that those day schools are bereft of quality education.

I agree that certificates and cheating is a problem that needs to be contained.  The slant against Kikuyus was my initial reaction, because a lot of your good points get lost in the effort to demonize them.

[MOON Ki]

Here are the results of Mangu High school between 1989 and 2009. Pay attention to the results after Kibaki came to power: The number of As jump from 11 in 2002 to 33 = a 200% increase!!!!

Proof by one example?   As a rule, that never works too well.    Consider this other example: You can find the results for Maseno School here: http://www.masenoschool.sc.ke/content.php?pid=4

Pay attention to the results after Kibaki came to power: The number of As jump from 4 in 2002 to 12 = a 300% increase!!!!

Overall, Maseno seems to have done very well during the Kibaki years.  Using your logic, would you care to compare and comment on the Mangu v. Maseno averages in the years before Kibaki came to power and then after Kibaki came to power?  But note that there was what you might consider a very suspicious leap from 2012 to 2013: from 56 to 106 As. Maybe we should attribute all that to Raila being the Prime Minister .... each co-principal pushing his region or something ... better cheating, with the edge going to Raila?

[Omollo]

stop cherry picking schools I am looking for Empirical evidence . We know the only two schools that got consistent results are Pangani girls and Alliance Girls High school .. I heard Maranda numbers went south.

GC

What is your point? I have provided you the statistics proving an unnatural spike in results in Central. I would be happy if you explain the 200% jump in A's in Mangu High School shortly after Kibaki came to power.

[MOON Ki]

What is your point? I have provided you the statistics proving an unnatural spike in results in Central. I would be happy if you explain the 200% jump in A's in Mangu High School shortly after Kibaki came to power.

Omollo:

The fact that two things happen at the same time does not necessarily mean that one is the cause (or even connected) to the other.    I have already pointed out a problem with your type of "analysis": look at Maseno, which did far better during the Kibaki years than before Kibaki.   More improvements than Mangu. What's more, the number of As at Maseno dropped sharply right after Kibaki went out. 

Anyways ... let me give you an "explanation" for Mangu that fits with your "logic".   There was another thing that happened at the same time that Kibaki came into power: Moi went out.    Moi had been "suppressing" results in Central, in favour of "uplifting" results in the Rift Valley.    So when he went, the yoke was lifted off Mangu. How's that?