Kimani Ngunjiri Warns Luos

[RV Pundit]

The double standard is quite predictable.Now that Moses Kuria is the one in hot soup, we want to tell the Judiciary to restrict our freedom of speech. If it was a CORD learning politician; the silence here would be deafening. The judiciary is free and independent to determine what is hate speech. DPP & Police have done well to take more than a dozen politician and bloggers to court on hate speech charges. Some of hate speech charges have gone so overboard Mumbi had to declare it unconstitutional.

[RV Pundit]

Tribalism is the natural consequences of democracy. If you want Kagame banning any tribal talk go ahead and ask for Rwanda type dictatorship. Under Moi dictatorship there was less tribalism and Kuria would be in a bad place if he dare say something like that then.

 Democracy allows Kuria to say what he wants, for DPP to be free to charge him in court, and for an independent judiciary to determine if it's hate speech or not.

Our democracy is such that despite Kuria & Waitutu being Jubilee loyalist; they have been summoned by police and will probably be charged again. Moses Kuria and his lawyers will argue their case. Our judiciary led by stud man Mutunga will decide. That is all you want in democracy.

Kenya I repeat is more evidently democratic than TZ. And yeah democracy is not one variable thing (tribalism or lack of it). TZ is a country led by one party dictatorship that recently ban live coverage in parliament after CCM mps were found sleeping and drunk.

I find the democracy explanation too convoluted and long winding.  An attempt to avoid owning up to the fact that there is a serious tribalism problem in Kenya, and the government has done nothing but feed the monster.  It has nothing to do with freedom or democracy.

You mention Zambia as being more democratic than Kenya.  How many Zambian Moses Kuria analogues have you ever heard of?

[Empedocles]

Tribalism is the natural consequences of democracy. If you want Kagame banning any tribal talk go ahead and ask for Rwanda type dictatorship. Under Moi dictatorship there was less tribalism and Kuria would be in a bad place if he dare say something like that then.

 Democracy allows Kuria to say what he wants, for DPP to be free to charge him in court, and for an independent judiciary to determine if it's hate speech or not.

Our democracy is such that despite Kuria & Waitutu being Jubilee loyalist; they have been summoned by police and will probably be charged again. Moses Kuria and his lawyers will argue their case. Our judiciary led by stud man Mutunga will decide. That is all you want in democracy.

Kenya I repeat is more evidently democratic than TZ. And yeah democracy is not one variable thing (tribalism or lack of it). TZ is a country led by one party dictatorship that recently ban live coverage in parliament after CCM mps were found sleeping and drunk.

No.

Tribalism is the natural consequence of economic disparity. Basically just herd instinct, like ethnic gangs in poorer areas of the US of A which don't exist in places like Beverly Hills.

We've an illusion of democracy. Each tribe is trying to dominate the others, for that little hope of extra traction to make life just a bit more comfortable.

Nothing serious will come out of the Kuria investigations, just as nothing serious came from RAO when Aladwa mentioned that "people must die for RAO to become PORK".

[RV Pundit]

Let me clarify. Tribalism exist and has existed for millions of years.What democracy does is to accentuate or increase the difference or tribalism in country that was already divided into tribes.

No.

Tribalism is the natural consequence of economic disparity. Basically just herd instinct, like ethnic gangs in poorer areas of the US of A which don't exist in places like Beverly Hills.

We've an illusion of democracy. Each tribe is trying to dominate the others, for that little hope of extra traction to make life just a bit more comfortable.

Nothing serious will come out of the Kuria investigations, just as nothing serious came from RAO when Aladwa mentioned that "people must die for RAO to become PORK".

[Reticent Solipsist]

I just now listened to the message this perverse nationalist had to say. And what did I draw from this Ngunjiri fellow's emotional and incoherent false patriotism diatribe. Well, the following: the man does not understand the concept of citizenship or nationality. Who is a Kenyan?

If CORD were not so pathetically incompetent, disorganized and unfocused, they would easily latch onto and exploit the issue this ethnic nationalist (I know it's a double entendre) has gifted them, and run up and down the Rift Valley while educating the Kalenjin and Maasai wananchi what exactly it means to be a Kenyan.

[Empedocles]

I just now listened to what this perverse nationalist had to say. And what did I draw from this Ngunjiri fellow's emotional and incoherent false patriotism diatribe. Well, the following: the man does not understand the concept of citizenship or nationality. Who is a Kenyan?

If CORD were not so pathetically incompetent, disorganized and unfocused, they would easily latch onto and exploit the issue this ethnic nationalist (I know it's a double entendre) has gifted them, and run up and down the Rift Valley while educating the wananchi what it means to be a Kenyan.

But that's exactly the point.

They (RAO, Uhuruto, and all the other make believe "national" leaders) have absolutely no idea what it means to be Kenyan. They're tribal leaders first and foremost.

A closer look at their respective intimate kitchen cabinets reveals the ugly truth. They all, without exception, surround themselves with tribe mates, with a token few other tribes on the fringes for show.

[Empedocles]

Let me clarify. Tribalism exist and has existed for millions of years.What democracy does is to accentuate or increase the difference or tribalism in country that was already divided into tribes.

Ah yes, understood.

Thanks for clarifying.

[Georgesoros]

You are right, one has to really know USA culture to talk about free speech. If I incite people to hate muslims and that harm should be done to them, I will not last 5min without being arrested. In Kenya looks like they investigate for 5yrs and by that time its forgotten. It is justice denied at the highest level.

Very interesting. Frankly, it seems to me that there are folks who are somewhat uninformed about the U.S. For instance, the right to hate speech in the U.S. is not absolute, particularly if that speech is deemed to incite violence or has the potential to incite violence. Here's a generic example.

You are at a mall somewhere in CA, say, Long Beach. You, the libertarian, approach a Vietnamese American young lady and wanting to test the boundaries of free speech you spout that "innocent" well-worn slur: "you G**k!"Now the lady notices a LB police officer on patrol in the mall and reports what you just said to her. The officer will then be compelled to ask the young lady the pertinent question: Did you feel threatened?

Good luck in court.

[RV Pundit]

Okay so our cops are out there arresting people for hate speech. I bet you all like it now. This has always been a slippery slope full of banana peelings.

[gout]

Trying to legislate and make some of these natural instincts like love and hate, criminal, is totally absurd and can never work; it in fact drives the instincts underground, where it is harder to police when all venting spaces are closed. This is main reason why young Muslims are easily falling prey to 'terror'.  They have no venting place apart from the mosque -do we want to go there so that nobody can talk ill of Uhuru, Raila, Ruto??

A google search on say kill obama /obama death threats yields so much. It is democracy!

[RV Pundit]

Now at least we have someone who have thought about this deeply. Thanks Gout. You speak for me. I am was a little perturbed when I heard that US of A has cops out there policing hate speech. This is just crazy. In a democracy you want the judiciary really having very strict definition of what hate speech is. For me it should be hate speech if for instance people went out after that and started rioting or killing. If some idler somewhere say Obama should be killed, police should only be interested if there are other factors...for instance the guy has a gun or has been seen loitering around DC or actually planning to do that or has real influence...sort of what Raila for instance has on his people. Kuria might say anything..but will people act on it? That is key criteria for what make incitement or not. If Ruto for example tell Kalenjin to attack XYZ..then that to me is pure incitement. If I do the same..that is plain idle talk.

Trying to legislate and make some of these natural instincts like love and hate, criminal, is totally absurd and can never work; it in fact drives the instincts underground, where it is harder to police when all venting spaces are closed. This is main reason why young Muslims are easily falling prey to 'terror'.  They have no venting place apart from the mosque -do we want to go there so that nobody can talk ill of Uhuru, Raila, Ruto??

A google search on say kill obama /obama death threats yields so much. It is democracy!

[gout]

I think threats are covered under the basic law of tort where for a threat to be taken seriously, there has to be evidence of capacity to carry out the threat.

Watching the shenanigans of arresting Junet at Nation Centre, totally absurd and unnecesary.

Societies have and should have natural sanctions on natural instincts to ensure they ain't toxic. For political hate speech church, IEBC, Kaparo old men or registrar of parties can easily work out sanctions-even if it is the Ngunyi's goat; from where the EACC, police, DPP and judiciary gets involved if it has criminal weight.

Given it is the era of the mobile phone with camera and data bundles, the police will be reduced to hate speech watchmen. 

[RV Pundit]

Thanks for info. Yeah threats. I agree that we might end up elevating what essentially is misdemeanor to crimes against humanity like we did with robbery with any violence. PEV was not caused by hate speech. No. It was triggered by Kibaki brazen rigging election. People did not sit there idly waiting for incitement. There was just national anger that boiled over and brought out all sort of issues to the fore.

I think threats are covered under the basic law of tort where for a threat to be taken seriously, there has to be evidence of capacity to carry out the threat.

Watching the shenanigans of arresting Junet at Nation Centre, totally absurd and unnecesary.

Societies have and should have natural sanctions on natural instincts to ensure they ain't toxic. For political hate speech church, IEBC, Kaparo old men or registrar of parties can easily work out sanctions-even if it is the Ngunyi's goat; from where the EACC, police, DPP and judiciary gets involved if it has criminal weight.

Given it is the era of the mobile phone with camera and data bundles, the police will be reduced to hate speech watchmen. 

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Tribalism is the natural consequences of democracy. If you want Kagame banning any tribal talk go ahead and ask for Rwanda type dictatorship. Under Moi dictatorship there was less tribalism and Kuria would be in a bad place if he dare say something like that then.

 Democracy allows Kuria to say what he wants, for DPP to be free to charge him in court, and for an independent judiciary to determine if it's hate speech or not.

Our democracy is such that despite Kuria & Waitutu being Jubilee loyalist; they have been summoned by police and will probably be charged again. Moses Kuria and his lawyers will argue their case. Our judiciary led by stud man Mutunga will decide. That is all you want in democracy.

Kenya I repeat is more evidently democratic than TZ. And yeah democracy is not one variable thing (tribalism or lack of it). TZ is a country led by one party dictatorship that recently ban live coverage in parliament after CCM mps were found sleeping and drunk.

I find the democracy explanation too convoluted and long winding.  An attempt to avoid owning up to the fact that there is a serious tribalism problem in Kenya, and the government has done nothing but feed the monster.  It has nothing to do with freedom or democracy.

You mention Zambia as being more democratic than Kenya.  How many Zambian Moses Kuria analogues have you ever heard of?

Tribalism for purposes of this discussion is negative ethnicity.  Not mere existence ethnic groupings.  It's ethnic hatred in the modern nation state.  It is not the ethnic violence we see between Pokots, Marakwet, Turkanas, Toposa, Karamojong etc.  Otherwise I could just mention them to easily debunk your theory without adding anything valuable to our understanding of the issue.

We still don't understand why Zambia, TZ, Uganda etc does not have a Moses Kuria, Waititu, Aladwa, Muthama, Ngunjiri etc.  This sort of character last thrived under Habyarimana's Rwanda; a veritable dictatorship.

Rwanda under Habyarimana was one of the most tribalistic nations in Africa.  Your theory says it should have been suppressed.  Instead, massacres of Tutsis was routine.  Was it a democratic place that we just weren't aware of?  No.  It was a space where state gave tribal loyalists carte blanche to spew tribal venom.

The better more relevant explanation for the Moses Kurias is that they have the blessings of the government.  The government(as opposed to democracy) is feeding the monster.

[MOON Ki]

Trying to legislate and make some of these natural instincts like love and hate, criminal, is totally absurd and can never work; it in fact drives the instincts underground, where it is harder to police when all venting spaces are closed. This is main reason why young Muslims are easily falling prey to 'terror'.  They have no venting place apart from the mosque -do we want to go there so that nobody can talk ill of Uhuru, Raila, Ruto??

A google search on say kill obama /obama death threats yields so much. It is democracy!

A very basic misunderstanding there.    Of course, it would be absurd to try and legislate to make criminal "natural instincts like love and hate".    But I have never seen legislation that aims to do that.   What legislation does, where it exists, is aim to limit the extent to which people can act on hate.    Let me repeat: you may hate whatever and whomever you like, but in properly run places you cannot act arbitrarily on it.

Another thing: It is in fact those countries that are considered the most democratic that also have the most stringent laws on hate (i.e. the extent to which one can act on it). And, more importantly, they have arrived at such laws after very painful experiences.   

Finally: People do get arrested and prosecuted for threatening to kill Obama.    Here are two examples:

http://www.zerocensorship.com/t/uncensored-ohio-crime/245306-ohio-man-jonathan-smead-indicted-charged-with-threatening-president-barack-obama-hillary-clinton#axzz4BYsXbDAA

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Man-Accused-Of-Threatening-Obama-Due-In-Court-142042453.html

(I have yet to see either perp or perp's lawyers argue "democracy!" in such cases.)

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

You are right, one has to really know USA culture to talk about free speech. If I incite people to hate muslims and that harm should be done to them, I will not last 5min without being arrested. In Kenya looks like they investigate for 5yrs and by that time its forgotten. It is justice denied at the highest level.

Very interesting. Frankly, it seems to me that there are folks who are somewhat uninformed about the U.S. For instance, the right to hate speech in the U.S. is not absolute, particularly if that speech is deemed to incite violence or has the potential to incite violence. Here's a generic example.

You are at a mall somewhere in CA, say, Long Beach. You, the libertarian, approach a Vietnamese American young lady and wanting to test the boundaries of free speech you spout that "innocent" well-worn slur: "you G**k!"Now the lady notices a LB police officer on patrol in the mall and reports what you just said to her. The officer will then be compelled to ask the young lady the pertinent question: Did you feel threatened?

Good luck in court.

The US comparison was brought up to excuse the obvious violations of the Kenyan constitution.  Pundit was saying if Donald Trump can do it, so can Moses Kuria.  Never mind the different statements or jurisdictions.

[RV Pundit]

You want to make really simple stuff sound like rocket science?. Democracy means people are free to say whatever they wish. Of course that also mean most people in a free society do go overboard once in a while. When people are under a dictatorship then people don't say much. These issues simmers underneath and eventually erupt.

Which one would you prefer...some few guys going overboard..or everyone being so careful and contrived when speaking so they don't cross the line. I say let people enjoy the widest possible freedom of speech and expression..and punish those that go overboard..once in a while. This should be exception. Not the rule. Kenya police have tried Kuria and his ilks so many times...they deserve nothing but commendation.

Rwanda had this coming the day they embrace democracy from tusti minority rule...it was expected people will mobilise along tribal or racial or whatever lines..and that is what happened in Rwanda. Of course Rwanda is back to it's default...dictatorship by Kagame and his elite tusti..the moment they allow Rwandese to have freedom of speech and expression...things get south. The same has happened in every country with many tribes.

As for Kuria double standard...that is rather obvious bias. Kisumu people were stonning Kikuyu owned business (Naivas & Tumaini)...and we got a defining silence here. If that was not tribal hate..I don't know what is.

Democracy breed tribalism in heterogeneous society. Dictatorship breed coups and civil wars in heteregenous society. You choose your medicine. Countries that are luckly are those that are largely homegenous. They can do well both in democracy and dictatorship. China, most of Asia and Europe are lucky in this regard because in most of their countries the main tribes are like 90% of the country population.

Tribalism for purposes of this discussion is negative ethnicity.  Not mere existence ethnic groupings.  It's ethnic hatred in the modern nation state.  It is not the ethnic violence we see between Pokots, Marakwet, Turkanas, Toposa, Karamojong etc.  Otherwise I could just mention them to easily debunk your theory without adding anything valuable to our understanding of the issue.

We still don't understand why Zambia, TZ, Uganda etc does not have a Moses Kuria, Waititu, Aladwa, Muthama, Ngunjiri etc.  This sort of character last thrived under Habyarimana's Rwanda; a veritable dictatorship.

Rwanda under Habyarimana was one of the most tribalistic nations in Africa.  Your theory says it should have been suppressed.  Instead, massacres of Tutsis was routine.  Was it a democratic place that we just weren't aware of?  No.  It was a space where state gave tribal loyalists carte blanche to spew tribal venom.

The better more relevant explanation for the Moses Kurias is that they have the blessings of the government.  The government(as opposed to democracy) is feeding the monster.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

You want to make really simple stuff sound like rocket science?. Democracy means people are free to say whatever they wish. Of course that also mean most people in a free society do go overboard once in a while. When people are under a dictatorship then people don't say much. These issues simmers underneath and eventually erupt.

Which one would you prefer...some few guys going overboard..or everyone being so careful and contrived when speaking so they don't cross the line. I say let people enjoy the widest possible freedom of speech and expression..and punish those that go overboard..once in a while. This should be exception. Not the rule. Kenya police have tried Kuria and his ilks so many times...they deserve nothing but commendation.

Rwanda had this coming the day they embrace democracy from tusti minority rule...it was expected people will mobilise along tribal or racial or whatever lines..and that is what happened in Rwanda. Of course Rwanda is back to it's default...dictatorship by Kagame and his elite tusti..the moment they allow Rwandese to have freedom of speech and expression...things get south. The same has happened in every country with many tribes.

As for Kuria double standard...that is rather obvious bias. Kisumu people were stonning Kikuyu owned business (Naivas & Tumaini)...and we got a defining silence here. If that was not tribal hate..I don't know what is.

Democracy breed tribalism in heterogeneous society. Dictatorship breed coups and civil wars in heteregenous society. You choose your medicine. Countries that are luckly are those that are largely homegenous. They can do well both in democracy and dictatorship. China, most of Asia and Europe are lucky in this regard because in most of their countries the main tribes are like 90% of the country population.

Tribalism for purposes of this discussion is negative ethnicity.  Not mere existence ethnic groupings.  It's ethnic hatred in the modern nation state.  It is not the ethnic violence we see between Pokots, Marakwet, Turkanas, Toposa, Karamojong etc.  Otherwise I could just mention them to easily debunk your theory without adding anything valuable to our understanding of the issue.

We still don't understand why Zambia, TZ, Uganda etc does not have a Moses Kuria, Waititu, Aladwa, Muthama, Ngunjiri etc.  This sort of character last thrived under Habyarimana's Rwanda; a veritable dictatorship.

Rwanda under Habyarimana was one of the most tribalistic nations in Africa.  Your theory says it should have been suppressed.  Instead, massacres of Tutsis was routine.  Was it a democratic place that we just weren't aware of?  No.  It was a space where state gave tribal loyalists carte blanche to spew tribal venom.

The better more relevant explanation for the Moses Kurias is that they have the blessings of the government.  The government(as opposed to democracy) is feeding the monster.

The point you make on Rwanda are confusing.  I don't know if you understood my views on Habyarimana.  He ran a Hutu dictatorship during which massacres of Tutsis were routine; way before Kagame became relevant.

Both Nyerere and Kenyatta were dictators.  All throughout Kenyatta's dictatorship, Kenya seethed with ethnic tension; actual ethnic violence between Luo and Kikuyu in Nairobi, mowing down people in Kisumu by police, these are not things that happened for the first time in 2007 but under Jomo Kenyatta's dictatorship.

None of that kind of thing happened in TZ under dictatorship or democracy. 

The only one making it rocket science is you.  Because you've made up your mind democracy is the reason for the Moses Kurias, you have immunized yourself against any other explanation.  So that you can dismiss Kenya/TZ differences as democracy based. 

Are there differences in Kenya and TZ that could explain virulent ukabila in Kenya other than Nyerere and Kenyatta?  Yes.   But democracy isn't one of them.  Maybe Nyerere's small tribe left him no option but weaken allegiance to tribe.  But that merely explains his motivations rather than the result of his actions.  To keep it simple, make some time to listen to the speeches of Nyerere and Kenyatta.

[MOON Ki]

But democracy isn't one of them. 

And I wonder is these "democracy" arguments apply to places like Botwsana, Japan, South Korea, New Zealand, ....

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

But democracy isn't one of them. 

And I wonder is these "democracy" arguments apply to places like Botwsana, Japan, South Korea, New Zealand, ....

I bet you will hear something like they are homogeneous.  It's just a wrong lesson and Kenyans seem pretty adept at picking those ones out of everything that happens there.