Author Topic: Obama on opposition:  (Read 14177 times)

Offline Kadudu

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 4413
  • Reputation: 1411
Re: Obama on opposition:
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2015, 05:41:02 PM »
Why are you surprised? RV Punda wastes most of his time in this forum claiming China has done this and that for Africa what US and British did not do for the last 100 years. He never asks what Africans have done or what they can do for themselves. Why exchange a slave master and still be proud?

China will take over Africa. British Empire in Africa has fallen generally to the Chinese.

Incredible.   50 years of "sovereign, independent, and equal"---with blood and tears expended for the "independence"---and Africans still get up to proudly and happily announce that they are being taken over, much as a young widow will tell the village that some rich, old guy is moving for the f**king.   And f**king (in the rear end) is exactly what it is.   

How about Africa standing up for itself and doing for itself, instead of "falling" and "being taken over"?  Africans need to give up this mentality, in which they are "owned" by anyone who claims to be providing "help".

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Obama on opposition:
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2015, 05:59:46 PM »
By virtue of its power, whatever the US does/doesn't amounts to interference.  When Obama says he will keep his hands off Kenya's affairs, that is a signal that emboldens the jubilant in his agenda.   

It certainly is an "unhelpful" signal, but the Kenyan Opposition still sees things in terms of the days of Moi and guys like Hempstone.   I see no future in such an outlook.    The USA is currently in its "third generation" of "learning" about African countries:

* The 1st generation involved such things as going around helping in the overthrow of elected leaders.   The lesson largely learned from that was that the replacements could be much worse.

* The 2nd generation is exemplified by cases such as Kenya's.  The lesson learned from that is "democratic elections", new-and-improved constitutions, and so forth are of limited worth unless the people themselves really want change.  (A place like Kenya does not lack laws or institutions; what it lacks are respect for the law and the proper leadership for its institutions.  And there is nothing the USA or anyone else can do about that.)

* The third generation is in light of the tremendous abuse by bodies such as the AU, w.r.t. to certain ICC cases.   Who needs that?   Best leave folks to sort themselves out.    Increasingly, I see little enthusiasm on the part of Western countries to involve themselves in the untidier parts of African life.  Such involvement is costly and the "gratitude-returns" are too little.

The last point is especially relevant to places like S. Sudan, which is now undergoing the failure-to-learn type of mayhem that all newly "independent" African countries seem to have a strong appetite for: Apart from humanitarian aid, I don't see the rest of the world doing much.  Even the ICC will tread carefully despite evidence of very serious crimes.  This is not especially helpful for Africa.  The much-praised Kung Fu, whose "taking over" is now being praised, will never get involved in anything that does not show them profit at the end: health, nutrition, etc.    Yet many Africans who owe their very existence to mosquito net and malaria medicines from the West, to generations of yellow maize from America, etc. will still pull out their willies in public and excitedly jerk-off about who is "helping" them and who is not.

There is also the notion that the USA is "fighting" the Chinese for dominance in Africa.   To anyone who entertains such a notion, I would ask this: What exactly does the USA want out of Africa that it is not getting right now?   

Apart from the particular aspect that is the focus of this thread, people should pay careful attention to the rest of what Obama said in various places.   In a nutshell: "It's up to you folks."
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8778
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: Obama on opposition:
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2015, 06:39:25 PM »
By virtue of its power, whatever the US does/doesn't amounts to interference.  When Obama says he will keep his hands off Kenya's affairs, that is a signal that emboldens the jubilant in his agenda.   

It certainly is an "unhelpful" signal, but the Kenyan Opposition still sees things in terms of the days of Moi and guys like Hempstone.   I see no future in such an outlook.    The USA is currently in its "third generation" of "learning" about African countries:

* The 1st generation involved such things as going around helping in the overthrow of elected leaders.   The lesson largely learned from that was that the replacements could be much worse.

* The 2nd generation is exemplified by cases such as Kenya's.  The lesson learned from that is "democratic elections", new-and-improved constitutions, and so forth are of limited worth unless the people themselves really want change.  (A place like Kenya does not lack laws or institutions; what it lacks are respect for the law and the proper leadership for its institutions.  And there is nothing the USA or anyone else can do about that.)

* The third generation is in light of the tremendous abuse by bodies such as the AU, w.r.t. to certain ICC cases.   Who needs that?   Best leave folks to sort themselves out.    Increasingly, I see little enthusiasm on the part of Western countries to involve themselves in the untidier parts of African life.  Such involvement is costly and the "gratitude-returns" are too little.

The last point is especially relevant to places like S. Sudan, which is now undergoing the failure-to-learn type of mayhem that all newly "independent" African countries seem to have a strong appetite for: Apart from humanitarian aid, I don't see the rest of the world doing much.  Even the ICC will tread carefully despite evidence of very serious crimes.  This is not especially helpful for Africa.  The much-praised Kung Fu, whose "taking over" is now being praised, will never get involved in anything that does not show them profit at the end: health, nutrition, etc.    Yet many Africans who owe their very existence to mosquito net and malaria medicines from the West, to generations of yellow maize from America, etc. will still pull out their willies in public and excitedly jerk-off about who is "helping" them and who is not.

There is also the notion that the USA is "fighting" the Chinese for dominance in Africa.   To anyone who entertains such a notion, I would ask this: What exactly does the USA want out of Africa that it is not getting right now?   

Apart from the particular aspect that is the focus of this thread, people should pay careful attention to the rest of what Obama said in various places.   In a nutshell: "It's up to you folks."
I tend to think the US is just doing the same thing it has always done in Africa and elsewhere.  Looking out for number one.

If anything has changed in the region that would attract more US interest than before, it would be oil.  The US likes to have a level of control over major energy resources.  The routes and all.

The obsession with Kung-Fu patronship tells me that the African is not ready to take responsibility for himself.  It's too much work.  If the west will not be his patron, he will look elsewhere.

I can't yet think of a coherent explanation for this state of affairs.  It could be a legacy of hundreds of years of being told you can't do nothing worthwhile.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Obama on opposition:
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2015, 07:27:49 PM »
If anything has changed in the region that would attract more US interest than before, it would be oil.  The US likes to have a level of control over major energy resources.  The routes and all.

That's probably true in general.   But: (a) USA oil imports have been falling and are now probably less than what they were around 30 years ago; and it's hard to see a sudden change in the other direction.   (b) To the extent that oil is the major thing, I'd expect more (and more serious) action in places like S. Sudan; but, now, on the contrary, I'd be surprised if there was any.  Too many headaches.

Quote
I can't yet think of a coherent explanation for this state of affairs.  It could be a legacy of hundreds of years of being told you can't do nothing worthwhile.

The seemingly endless "child helplessness" attitude is hard to understand.   People stealing money from own, stashing it overseas, and then proceeding there to beg for "help".   The endless finishing of each other in assorted crimes against humanity.   And so on, and so forth.   Everything except what is actually required to develop.   

But perhaps there is an "explanation" for the Kung-Fu Love:

Chinua Achebe wrote and spoke several times on the "cargo cult mentality"---the notion in some places that people can forever keep doing bugger-all for themselves, but that, somehow, all would be well with the arrival of some foreigners bearing goodies.

See, for example, his book, The Trouble With Nigeria.

Quote



Olseugun Obasanjo when in power:

Quote

http://re-thinkingafrica.blogspot.ca/2011/03/cargo-cult-mentality-nigeria-and.html

(The complete article makes for interesting and useful reading, even if one does not agree with all of it.)

In some countries today, similar examples will be found in Vision 20XX plans.  If one is to believe these plans---and calling them "plans" seems a bit excessive---then the very existence of the plans is a guarantee of the good stuff that is to come.  All that is needed is a bit of "help", I suppose.

Soon to arrive at Dock 42: The Ming Qing Superboat?

See also:

http://nigeriapolitricks.blogspot.ca/2013/03/remembering-chinua-achebe.html
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Obama on opposition:
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2015, 07:52:13 PM »
Opposition have to give kenyans a reason to listen to them.

The current Opposition seems to believe that its role consists solely of crying "we oppose!" and "we demand step-aside!".   It is lost on them that they should be trying to paint a convincing picture of a better-government-in-the-waiting.   Considering some of what is going on in Nyanza, Raila himself would be more convincing if he could first Okoa Nyanza.   

Kenyan history will record Raila's enormous and courageous sacrifices, while the likes of Uhuru were busy getting loaded on pot and whiskey and chasing p**sy, but ultimately his is a sort of a tragedy.   And at the root of that "tragedy" is his inability or unwillingness to shake off all sorts of dodgy "advisors" and, perhaps, his readiness to even rely on them.   Downed by his own chosen Lilliputians.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline mya88

  • Moderator
  • Mega superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 399
  • Reputation: 2095
Re: Obama on opposition:
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2015, 12:18:19 AM »
Why are you surprised? RV Punda wastes most of his time in this forum claiming China has done this and that for Africa what US and British did not do for the last 100 years. He never asks what Africans have done or what they can do for themselves. Why exchange a slave master and still be proud?

China will take over Africa. British Empire in Africa has fallen generally to the Chinese.

Incredible.   50 years of "sovereign, independent, and equal"---with blood and tears expended for the "independence"---and Africans still get up to proudly and happily announce that they are being taken over, much as a young widow will tell the village that some rich, old guy is moving for the f**king.   And f**king (in the rear end) is exactly what it is.   

How about Africa standing up for itself and doing for itself, instead of "falling" and "being taken over"?  Africans need to give up this mentality, in which they are "owned" by anyone who claims to be providing "help".
Kadudu
You may disagree with Pundit but give him his respect by calling him by his Moniker. That is what differentiates this forum from the other place. We may disagree immensely but we still remain respectful. I noticed he has already asked you once. Instead of focusing on what he spends his time on, why dont you counter those falsehoods by giving us some other perspective.
"We must be the change we wish to see" - Mahatma Ghandi

Offline mya88

  • Moderator
  • Mega superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 399
  • Reputation: 2095
Re: Obama on opposition:
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2015, 12:27:38 AM »
I agree with whoever said the biggest beneficiary was Auma and ouru. Auma especially....the minute she stepped in the beast is the minute I realized what this trip was about. It was more of a personal trip to fulfill some personal or even familial promise.

 He had to come back before his term ended if only to make a statement ...and to stick it to the man who left him behind. I am sure he was saying to himself "look at me now, shit stops when I come to town.....no fly zone, Nairobi almost shut down etc."

Ouru was beaming from ear to ear like a kid in a candy store or something. I thought he almost opened the door of the beast so Obama can get in. It helped that he is young, a bit quicker on his feet than his predecessors (who would have been a complete embarrassment). I mean, ouru even invited Akon into town...I am sure as he smoked his joint Sunday night he was thinking "mission accomplished."

 For all the other ordinary citizens, life goes on as usual. The only thing I would have liked him to press harder on was corruption and security being that we are still under attack. There was no way he was going to bash his host....I understand, but taking a swipe at opposition doe not help anyone.

Like Termi said, they are the only ones keeping Kenya from a complete dictatorship.
"We must be the change we wish to see" - Mahatma Ghandi

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38135
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: Obama on opposition:
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2015, 07:34:31 AM »
Mya88,
That was my reading too. Uhuru basically executed a coup on Obama right from the day he landed, Uhuru was there with his two sons smiling ear to ear and all the 3 days, they were holding hands, patting their backs and name it. It also helped a lot that Uhuru is 21st century leader...not a Moi or Kibaki...who thought leaders have to mumble incoherently.

If there is something this regime get it...then it PR. It is frustrating why Uhuru cannot be really hard on corruption. He has no need to steal himself.

Dr Auma became an household name in those few days. Hopefully she can use this closeness with Obama for something big.I noticed Obama forgave Malik...and Malik was somewhere in the background.

I agree with whoever said the biggest beneficiary was Auma and ouru. Auma especially....the minute she stepped in the beast is the minute I realized what this trip was about. It was more of a personal trip to fulfill some personal or even familial promise.

 He had to come back before his term ended if only to make a statement ...and to stick it to the man who left him behind. I am sure he was saying to himself "look at me now, shit stops when I come to town.....no fly zone, Nairobi almost shut down etc."

Ouru was beaming from ear to ear like a kid in a candy store or something. I thought he almost opened the door of the beast so Obama can get in. It helped that he is young, a bit quicker on his feet than his predecessors (who would have been a complete embarrassment). I mean, ouru even invited Akon into town...I am sure as he smoked his joint Sunday night he was thinking "mission accomplished."

 For all the other ordinary citizens, life goes on as usual. The only thing I would have liked him to press harder on was corruption and security being that we are still under attack. There was no way he was going to bash his host....I understand, but taking a swipe at opposition doe not help anyone.

Like Termi said, they are the only ones keeping Kenya from a complete dictatorship.

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 38135
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: Obama on opposition:
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2015, 07:39:31 AM »
Once again desist from calling me punda. You know me long enough to know you cannot intimidate me to change my viewpoints. You can persuade me with facts which rarely you have. I have made factual claims. China lending kenya more than 5B dollars in a single project is big news. And every day I praise what Kenyans themselves are doing for their country. About 1/3 my post are those highlighting the great things we are doing ourselves.

Now you, Wind city and Moonki have never recognized any kenyan effort to pull themselves or Chinese monumental help along the way. Suddenly Obama empty pockets have you guys running around claiming kenyans do not need any help.

Kenya need help. US has very little to offer. China has a lot to offer. And Kenyans themselves are doing a lot of great things and nobody is as optimistic about Kenya prospect as I am. Some of you deride that as "real estate" or "land ponzi" or "the bubble is crushing".

Meanwhile the economy continues to grow at 5-6%.

Why are you surprised? RV Punda wastes most of his time in this forum claiming China has done this and that for Africa what US and British did not do for the last 100 years. He never asks what Africans have done or what they can do for themselves. Why exchange a slave master and still be proud?

Offline yulemsee

  • VIP
  • Superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 183
  • Reputation: 102
Re: Obama on opposition:
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2015, 06:57:11 PM »
There is no proof that Obama meant Raila. In fact Raila is last on my list of suspects. Raila wanted and asked for US mediation in 2007. Though he sat in government as PM, he had many run ins with Kibaki's retinue over appointments, the Katiba etc.

His comrades - Kalonzo and Wetangula - on the other hand made some very hawkish statements in that period.

I am not saying that it is NOT Raila and I am not saying it is him either. There is simply not enough to go by.

Martha Karua is last on the list, he used "him"to refer to the reprimanded leader

Offline Empedocles

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 823
  • Reputation: 15758
Re: Obama on opposition:
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2015, 07:44:31 PM »
There is no proof that Obama meant Raila. In fact Raila is last on my list of suspects. Raila wanted and asked for US mediation in 2007. Though he sat in government as PM, he had many run ins with Kibaki's retinue over appointments, the Katiba etc.

His comrades - Kalonzo and Wetangula - on the other hand made some very hawkish statements in that period.

I am not saying that it is NOT Raila and I am not saying it is him either. There is simply not enough to go by.

Maybe this should be enough:


Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8778
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: Obama on opposition:
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2015, 11:27:03 PM »
If anything has changed in the region that would attract more US interest than before, it would be oil.  The US likes to have a level of control over major energy resources.  The routes and all.

That's probably true in general.   But: (a) USA oil imports have been falling and are now probably less than what they were around 30 years ago; and it's hard to see a sudden change in the other direction.   (b) To the extent that oil is the major thing, I'd expect more (and more serious) action in places like S. Sudan; but, now, on the contrary, I'd be surprised if there was any.  Too many headaches.

Quote
I can't yet think of a coherent explanation for this state of affairs.  It could be a legacy of hundreds of years of being told you can't do nothing worthwhile.

The seemingly endless "child helplessness" attitude is hard to understand.   People stealing money from own, stashing it overseas, and then proceeding there to beg for "help".   The endless finishing of each other in assorted crimes against humanity.   And so on, and so forth.   Everything except what is actually required to develop.   

But perhaps there is an "explanation" for the Kung-Fu Love:

Chinua Achebe wrote and spoke several times on the "cargo cult mentality"---the notion in some places that people can forever keep doing bugger-all for themselves, but that, somehow, all would be well with the arrival of some foreigners bearing goodies.

See, for example, his book, The Trouble With Nigeria.

Quote



Olseugun Obasanjo when in power:

Quote

http://re-thinkingafrica.blogspot.ca/2011/03/cargo-cult-mentality-nigeria-and.html

(The complete article makes for interesting and useful reading, even if one does not agree with all of it.)

In some countries today, similar examples will be found in Vision 20XX plans.  If one is to believe these plans---and calling them "plans" seems a bit excessive---then the very existence of the plans is a guarantee of the good stuff that is to come.  All that is needed is a bit of "help", I suppose.

Soon to arrive at Dock 42: The Ming Qing Superboat?

See also:

http://nigeriapolitricks.blogspot.ca/2013/03/remembering-chinua-achebe.html
Reading Chinua, though something of an Igbo tribalist, brings some interesting insights.  One realizes, that everything that has happened in anywhere in Africa, forms a part and parcel of Nigerian history.  Genocide, corruption, coups, ethnic clashes, economic booms, you name it.  They have seen it all.  And stoically refused to learn from it.

The Kung-fu obsession would make sense if these folks were imparting skills and knowledge so they wont be needed every time something needs to be built.  There are Kenyan engineers all over the place building infrastructure for other people. 

I recall reading something about how the Japanese learnt their craft from the Americans and made it their own.  They literally had to ape the west to modernize.  It takes a lot of investment, discipline and integrity to build that kind of capacity.

Thanks for the links.  I'll check them out when I get a chance.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Obama on opposition:
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2015, 01:47:27 AM »
Reading Chinua, though something of an Igbo tribalist, brings some interesting insights.  One realizes, that everything that has happened in anywhere in Africa, forms a part and parcel of Nigerian history.

"The Trouble With Nigeria" could just as well be "The Trouble With X" [X=your favorite African country]

Quote
The Kung-fu obsession would make sense if these folks were imparting skills and knowledge so they wont be needed every time something needs to be built.

In the excitement, it appears that not many are thinking of such things.   But Kung Fu certainly is: I have been told that we are not even expected to be able to maintain the stuff---which is hard to argue with of one looks at history---and Kung Fu expects to be on-call (paid) even after things are done.

Quote
I recall reading something about how the Japanese learnt their craft from the Americans and made it their own.  They literally had to ape the west to modernize. 

And there is no better "demonstration" of that than in kaizen---roughly, the notion that nothing, however small,  is ever done with and continuous improvement is always possible.   That is what the Japanese really mastered in the second half of the 20th century, and it largely explains the astounding levels of quality in many of their industrial products---to the extent that even Americans marvel at this kaizen thing, and many, from all over the world, seek to study, understand, and apply this "oriental method".   The odd thing about that is the fundamental ideas of kaizen were introduced into Japan by the Americans in the immediate post-war period.   The Japanese simply "took it to the next level".  Just compare, say, Toyota and the American car manufacturers, 50 years ago and now.

Beyond "manufacturing philosophies", take a look at one "concrete" aspect: electronics.    Solid-state electronics is almost entirely an American invention, yet the Japanese managed to pick it up and run away with it.   Who makes, say, TVs in America these days?   The Japanese killed that segment of American industry, and, contrary to what many think, it wasn't just on pricing.   Kaizen was applied to get a "zero defect" in manufacturing.    And today, the South Koreans are wiping off what's left off the TV industry elsewhere; I have been to some South Korean "consumer-electronics trade shows seen amazing prototypes.   (Chinese will do cheap anything, but for quality electronics even they prefer Japanese products first and South Korean second.)

Quote
discipline and integrity

Keywords.  And they make a huge, huge difference.   I shall save my comments for another, more relevant, thread but the words really come to mind when I think of places like Japan and South Korea.   
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Obama on opposition:
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2015, 02:46:01 AM »
Reading Chinua, though something of an Igbo tribalist, brings some interesting insights.  One realizes, that everything that has happened in anywhere in Africa, forms a part and parcel of Nigerian history.

"The Trouble With Nigeria" could just as well be "The Trouble With X" [X=your favorite African country]

Quote
The Kung-fu obsession would make sense if these folks were imparting skills and knowledge so they wont be needed every time something needs to be built.

In the excitement, it appears that not many are thinking of such things.   But Kung Fu certainly is: I have been told that we are not even expected to be able to maintain the stuff---which is hard to argue with of one looks at history---and Kung Fu expects to be on-call (paid) even after things are done.

Quote
I recall reading something about how the Japanese learnt their craft from the Americans and made it their own.  They literally had to ape the west to modernize. 

And there is no better "demonstration" of that than in kaizen---roughly, the notion that nothing, however small,  is ever done with and continuous improvement is always possible.   That is what the Japanese really mastered in the second half of the 20th century, and it largely explains the astounding levels of quality in many of their industrial products---to the extent that even Americans marvel at this kaizen thing, and many, from all over the world, seek to study, understand, and apply this "oriental method".   The odd thing about that is the fundamental ideas of kaizen, as we know it today (i.e. in manufacturing), were introduced into Japan by the Americans in the immediate post-war period; before that, in Japan, the closest approach would have been in the making of samurai swords, noodles, etc.   The Japanese simply "took it to the next level".  Just compare, say, Toyota and the American car manufacturers, 50 years ago and now.

Beyond "manufacturing philosophies", take a look at one "concrete" aspect: electronics.    Solid-state electronics is almost entirely an American invention, yet the Japanese managed to pick it up and run away with it.   Who makes, say, TVs in America these days?   The Japanese killed that segment of American industry ages, and, contrary to what many think, it wasn't just on pricing.   Kaizen was applied to get a "zero defect" in manufacturing.    And today, the South Koreans are wiping off what's left off the TV industry elsewhere; I have been to some South Korean "consumer-electronics trade shows seen amazing prototypes.   (Chinese will do cheap anything, but for quality electronics even they prefer Japanese products first and South Korean second.)

Quote
discipline and integrity

Keywords.  And they make a huge, huge difference.   I shall save my comments for another, more relevant, thread but the words really come to mind when I think of places like Japan and South Korea.   

Quote
Thanks for the links.  I'll check them out when I get a chance.

The whole "Rethinking Africa" blog is generally good value.  We need a serious re-think.  Give up this idea that others, who are first and foremost looking out for themselves, will "help" and "take care" of us.   Give up this idea that it's all bad climate, bad gods, bad history, bad luck, etc.   Take a hard, honest look and admit: "this is where we are, these are our alleged leaders, these are the things we need to change, ...".  And without fanciful dreams of Vision XXXX, Afrika Rising, blah blah blah.  A genuinely hard look and self-examination.   

Nobody will do it for us.

There was a time when our ancestors gave away all sorts of things in return for shiny bits of glass or for black books of "holy word", and they were sure they were getting a great deal.  And here we are today: where mzungu once did the "saving", today it's supposedly Kung Fu.    We need it be careful about getting suckered again: if others appear to giving it away, what returns do they have in mind for themselves.   What lies at the end of the shiny tarmac on that new road or at the end of those rail-lines that fly over the animals?
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Obama on opposition:
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2015, 03:42:31 AM »
China lending kenya more than 5B dollars in a single project is big news.

There's the bit about China doubting Kenya's ability to pay and insisting on very costly insurance (to be paid to Kung Fu).   Your attitude reminds me of Kenyans who land overseas for the first time: they get a couple of credit cards and immediately think they have real money of their own; free money from ...!  Two  years down the road ...

Try to look beyond the mere fact that Kenya can borrow money; the Greeks managed to do more than 5B, so did the Argentinians before them, so did ...   

Quote
Now you, Wind city and Moonki have never recognized any kenyan effort to pull themselves

Every single week I read, in the Kenyan papers, of one huge corruption scandal after another.   Week after week.   Public money stolen while the begging and borrowing goes on.   Some kind of pulling oneself up!

And it's the same story all over the continent: endless theft, gazillions stashed overseas, but forever sucking wieners for a relatively small loan and getting down on the knee to express gratitude for "help".  Anglo Leasing, Goldenburg, and all that ... how many billions is that?

Quote
Some of you deride that as "real estate" or "land ponzi" or "the bubble is crushing".

I take it Konza City has gone beyond Lego-Land images and that Vision 2030 has moved backed into this century?   If so, weka evidence hapa hapa.   Are Kenyans even building their reliable roads yet?

Quote
Meanwhile the economy continues to grow at 5-6%.

And the people's welfare?
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8778
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: Obama on opposition:
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2015, 08:17:22 PM »
Obama read the riot act to Raila.  I know  Omollo disagrees.  I think the Obama, who has no idea what it means to oppose an African dictoatorship, came into Agwambo's backyard and seriously disrespected the father of democracy in Kenya.  Telling him that he should support the government of thieves and not antagonize it, or so I read. 

While Obama castigates the leader of the opposition, the auditor-general has other ideas.  The question is whether his opinion ever matters.
Quote
Auditor puts ministries on the spot over missing documents for Sh66.7bn deals

The Auditor-General has raised the red flag on the questionable spending of Sh66.7 billion by 17 ministries and state departments in the last financial year.

In his report for the 2013-2014 financial year, Auditor-General Edward Ouko, said the money may have been illegally used because the concerned authorities failed to produce any documents to authenticate how the money was spent.

The money is part of a massive Sh450 billion in unsupported expenditures. The national budget for the year reviewed was Sh1.3 trillion.
http://www.nation.co.ke/news/Use-of-Sh67-billion-queried-by-auditor/-/1056/2812504/-/9tuo4uz/-/index.html
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Georgesoros

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 4604
  • Reputation: 7043
Re: Obama on opposition:
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2015, 08:46:44 PM »
"Build it and they'll come"
They haven't even started building the road to konza!!

Offline Reticent Solipsist

  • Superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 134
  • Reputation: 3419
Re: Obama on opposition:
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2015, 09:52:22 AM »
Obama recalls a conversation with one opposition groups. They wanted him to be "hard" on gov. Obama reminded him that recently he was in gov and he wanted him to respect gov sovereignty.

Admit US was previously involved but now that has changed.

I guess this is what Obama meant:

Quote
Mr Ranneberger's comments drew immediate anger from Raila Odinga, Kenya's prime minister.
"We don't need lectures on how to govern ourselves. Lecturing us on issues that deal with governance and transparency is in bad taste," Mr Odinga said.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/kenya/5979171/Dont-lecture-us-Kenyan-PM-tells-US-as-Hillary-Clinton-begins-Africa-tour.html

Raila is the least likely of the three that Obama was referring to. Other than this one bone-headed statement by the excitable play-to-the- gallery Raila, the guy was generally pro-West and pro-America.

So making an educated guess going by the people who were in government or power during the said period when Kenyan government policy was pronouncedly anti-America, two people stand out. Kalonzo was the VP, who also moonlighted as a roving ambassador hectoring folks in Washington DC and London. Wetangula was the belligerent Foreign Affairs Minister during that period. Karua was equally hawkish but she is not a he.