Eu arrest Rwanda Military General for war crimes

[Bella]

I have no problem with regional courts such as Uhuru's African Court. However would it be allowed to function if it gets serious with its work? Is Uhuru willing to submit himself to the said court or is he setting it up for his subjects and not himself or his fellow Presidents?

I heard they made sure that no heads of state can be tried, meaning, those most likely to commit the crimes will never be tried.

[RV Pundit]

Isn't the head of state immune from criminal proceedings while serving...any where in the world.

I heard they made sure that no heads of state can be tried, meaning, those most likely to commit the crimes will never be tried.

[Omollo]

The last time I looked at this was way back in 1996, so I would answer Yes and NO. Perhaps Bella can expound on it better.

The idea is to protect the Presidency not the person. It does not grant the President Impunity. So Nixon was to be impeached and tried for real crimes.

In most countries the Head of state would face the same music as Nixon except that minor crimes may not be pursued unless they cumulatively amount to high crimes. While one is protected from prosecution, he is not protected from investigation. That is how the Prosecution pushes such people to eventually resign or make bigger mistakes that make it easier to try them.

Some countries provide for the immunity to be lifted.

I believe one is really protected from civil litigation.

Isn't the head of state immune from criminal proceedings while serving...any where in the world.

I heard they made sure that no heads of state can be tried, meaning, those most likely to commit the crimes will never be tried.

[Bella]

Isn't the head of state immune from criminal proceedings while serving...any where in the world.

I heard they made sure that no heads of state can be tried, meaning, those most likely to commit the crimes will never be tried.

Pundit, here is how I see it: There are crimes for which no one in this world should be immune from prosecution because they are just so henious. Genocide, for one. Can you imagine excusing Hitler from trial for exterminating Jews ati because he was head of state? I think if we are going to have a regional court that cant touch people who do such things, such a court may as well roll over and die because its useless.

[MOON Ki]

I have no problem with regional courts such as Uhuru's African Court. However would it be allowed to function if it gets serious with its work? Is Uhuru willing to submit himself to the said court or is he setting it up for his subjects and not himself or his fellow Presidents?

I heard they made sure that no heads of state can be tried, meaning, those most likely to commit the crimes will never be tried.

It is worse than that.    The immunity is for heads of state and "senior government officials", with the latter not specified.   That pretty much covers anyone with any sort of power in a government.

The other things is that, looking North to the "Arab Springs", the court will have the jurisdiction to deal with the supposedly very serious crime of "popular uprising".   (The proposed law actually uses those very words!)

[MOON Ki]

I believe one is really protected from civil litigation.

Not really.   Take Kenya for example.   The constitution

(a) protects the president from national criminal proceedings;

(b) does not protect the president from certain types of international criminal proceedings (ICC-Rome Statute);

(c) does not entirely protect the president from national civil proceedings.

In relation to the difference between (a) and (c) is in the wording:

143. (1) Criminal proceedings shall not be instituted or continued
in any court against the President or a person performing the functions
of that office, during their tenure of office.

(2) Civil proceedings shall not be instituted in any court against
the President or the person performing the functions of that office
during their tenure of office in respect of anything done or not done in
the exercise of their powers under this Constitution.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

I have no problem with regional courts such as Uhuru's African Court. However would it be allowed to function if it gets serious with its work? Is Uhuru willing to submit himself to the said court or is he setting it up for his subjects and not himself or his fellow Presidents?

I heard they made sure that no heads of state can be tried, meaning, those most likely to commit the crimes will never be tried.

It is worse than that.    The immunity is for heads of state and "senior government officials", with the latter not specified.

The African way is preserved thus.  Ingenious because the end point of such crimes is usually a senior position in government. 

I wonder who supplies the court with milk.  Perhaps Miss Desire?  They like their beverages with a thick serving of milk.

[MOON Ki]

I actually don't worry too much about this court, for two reasons:

* Despite all the talk, African countries themselves don't seem particularly keen.   So far only 28 have signed up (a small number than for the ICC) and only 6 or 7 have bothered to ratify the relevant protocols.

* The court's predecessor never had the money to do anything serious, and this new-and-improved court has even less.   If African countries are not keen on joining, they are even less keen on giving money.   So, as things stand, the AU plan is that "donors" and development partners" will do the needful.  Yes, the very same ones to be shown that Africa can have its own courts for such things---sovereign, independent, and equal!

[Omollo]

The problem of having weak institutions comes calling in such cases. The police would be told that the President is Immune and stay away. Nowhere does that clause stop investigations.

The way I see it:

1.President Pundit breaks the law;
2. MP Moonki citing investigations by an independent police files Impeachment charges
3. An Impartial and highly conscientious parliament hears the case and in the end impeaches the President
4. The President, ever so graceful, voluntarily leaves office and
5. He is arrested the next day and tried for the crimes
6. The Presidency is saved the ignominy of appearing in court - make believe handovers notwithstanding.

The key to this process is having an independent Police and Prosecution willing to exploit their power to investigate anybody and everybody including the President. The President can be interrogated. I see nothing that says he can't.

Now this has happened in Israel with Moshe Katsav. In his case, he skipped 3 and made a deal with prosecutors to plead guilty and get a mild sentence. He reneged and as I speak he is in prison serving 7 years. (Am just saying: if he had taken the plea in 2007, he would be long done with the case!- May be something Uhuru could think of considering his case will never really get stale as long as he is alive.)

Civil Proceedings:
I must confess not having really looked at these provisions keenly. I must have made some unfortunate assumptions. I think this is fair. It was very sad to watch some Mhindi businessman go bankrupt as Kibaki refused to pay him for the rental of his cars during the 2002 campaign. Instead of being a gentleman to pay the guy, he hired an expensive lawyer to go to court to say Kibaki could not be sued for refusing to pay his debts!

gross violation of a provision of this Constitution or of any other law;
(b) where there are serious reasons for believing that the President has committed a crime under national or international law; or
(c) for gross misconduct.