A Gay Atheist preaching to the Church

[vooke]

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He could easily be Termie except Termie is as Negro and straight as vooke. Sarcastic as hell
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/05/as-a-gay-atheist-i-want-to-see-the-church-oppose-same-sex-marriage/

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

I think the Catholic's church position is impervious to such things.  Reminds me of the coach Chicago Bulls just fired.  In any case, you would be hard pressed to find religious Christians in the west except in the US(and even those are in steep decline).  Africa is where it's at.  But no black pope in sight for fear of losing the remaining holdouts.

This writer is weak on doctrine.  Back in the day, I would have had vooke sleeping, waking, eating and shitting dogmas and infallibility of the supreme pontiff in one day sharp.

[GeeMail]

Strange as it may seem, the guy is right to a large extent. Morality is not decided on the basis of majority. The majority of Irish people have decided that they will legalize gay marriage. That does not make homosexuality a virtue, nor does it diminish what the Bible says against it. The gay atheist is arguing that back in the day, the church stood for something.

These days, she makes statements like "being out of touch with young people, needing to reconnect". The church has tried so hard to be politically correct that it has become spiritually corrupt. When a pope can't decide whether to side with the Bible (which is not unusual given the church's open apostasy in Sunday worship, canonization, Marian worship, idolatry and so on), one can only say "ole wetu washiriki." People can no longer look up to their denominational leaders for spiritual guidance. You have to read the Bible for yourself and stand up for something, or you'll fall for anything.

However, the deeper sense in the article is that even atheists have a sense of morality and they look up to the church for guidance. This is only sensible. On a different note, the world has crept into the church and Satan warms the pews regularly. I can guess the reason most churches cannot condemn homosexuality is because they are so corrupt themselves. Rome (and its whorish daughters) for example has lost its moral voice and can only croak a whisper to homosexuals because of the heavy load of pedophile cases it is handling. There are numerous forums where Rome cannot raise her voice lest the congregation ask the unwanted question, "So homosexuality is sin and pedophilia is kosher?" Or what reformers would have asked, "So homosexuality is sin and veneration of saints is not?" Or Bible believers, "So homosexuality is sin and Sunday worship is not?"

All over the world we see an erosion of credibility in formal institutions (church, school, parliament, anti-corruption agencies, electoral institutions, law enforcement..... name it). The courts can no longer be trusted by a good chunk of citizens. Even the beautifool game has been mired in the miasma of corruption and scandal (Sepp Blatter can testify). Moral decadence and decay is the order of the day. That is just how Satan wants it and it will "wax worse and worse" until Jesus comes to make a stop to it.

Homosexuality is one of those abominations that made God to pronounce judgment upon Sodom(ites) and Gomorrha. It is a sign of the times in which we live, and reminds us of the question, Jesus is coming. Are you ready?

[vooke]

People can no longer look up to their denominational leaders for spiritual guidance. You have to read the Bible for yourself and stand up for something, or you'll fall for anything.

Very true Nuff Sed,
And I have been telling you this over and over. The moment you will study scriptures by themselves minus Ellen White shades, the Kingdom of God will have truly come.

But how can you do this when you have settled in your heart that Ellen White is inspired and infallible just like Paul? Is there any difference between Catholicism doctrine of papal infallibility and Ellen White claims of inspiration and infallibility?

An Adventist would rather die than a jot of Spirit of Prophecy be dispensed with. In fact true Christianity as far as Nuff Sed is concerned is measured by how you esteem Ellen White. So I don't know what 'people' you are talking about. Are you preaching to you?

[GeeMail]

People can no longer look up to their denominational leaders for spiritual guidance. You have to read the Bible for yourself and stand up for something, or you'll fall for anything.

Very true Nuff Sed,
And I have been telling you this over and over. The moment you will study scriptures by themselves minus Ellen White shades, the Kingdom of God will have truly come.

But how can you do this when you have settled in your heart that Ellen White is inspired and infallible just like Paul? Is there any difference between Catholicism doctrine of papal infallibility and Ellen White claims of inspiration and infallibility?

An Adventist would rather die than a jot of Spirit of Prophecy be dispensed with. In fact true Christianity as far as Nuff Sed is concerned is measured by how you esteem Ellen White. So I don't know what 'people' you are talking about. Are you preaching to you?

You would have to first show me where Ellen G. White claims infallibility or equality with Paul. The Pope claims infallibility openly.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/pope/infallibility.shtml
In 1075 Pope Gregory VII in his Dictatus Papae (The Pope's Memorandum) put it more bluntly. He set out 27 propositions about the powers of the office of Bishop of Rome. These included the statement that the papacy "never will err to all eternity according to the testimony of Holy Scripture". The word infallibility, however, was not used.......It stated that Pope "when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when exercising the office of pastor and teacher of all Christians" is "possessed of infallibility" when "he defines... a doctrine concerning faith and morals to be held by the whole Church, through the divine assistance promised to him by St Peter". Once the Pope has spoken, the First Vatican Council agreed, his definitions "are irreformable of themselves".

Voting on this form of words took place during a thunderstorm. A majority gave their assent but God, some said, was angry.

Routine papal teaching is not therefore infallible and it was not until 1950 that a pope exercised his "infallible magisterium" to declare that the Virgin Mary had been assumed body and soul into heaven. The belief is unsupported in scripture.
Pope John Paul II spoke infallibly once: in 1994 he ruled out the possibility of women ever being ordained and furthermore decreed that Catholics should not even talk about the issue any more. To date (2009) Pope Benedict XVI has not spoken infallibly.

[vooke]

People can no longer look up to their denominational leaders for spiritual guidance. You have to read the Bible for yourself and stand up for something, or you'll fall for anything.

Very true Nuff Sed,
And I have been telling you this over and over. The moment you will study scriptures by themselves minus Ellen White shades, the Kingdom of God will have truly come.

But how can you do this when you have settled in your heart that Ellen White is inspired and infallible just like Paul? Is there any difference between Catholicism doctrine of papal infallibility and Ellen White claims of inspiration and infallibility?

An Adventist would rather die than a jot of Spirit of Prophecy be dispensed with. In fact true Christianity as far as Nuff Sed is concerned is measured by how you esteem Ellen White. So I don't know what 'people' you are talking about. Are you preaching to you?

You would have to first show me where Ellen G. White claims infallibility or equality with Paul.

Nuff Sed,
Ellen White never claimed INFALLIBILITY for herself, see here

In regard to infallibility, I never claimed it, God alone is infallible.  His words is true, and in him is no variableness of turning.

Letter 10. 1895,  1 Selected Messages p. 37.

But what about her writings?

Yet, now when I send you a testimony of warning and reproof, many of you declare it to be merely the opinion of Sister White. You thereby insulted the Spirit of God.

Testimonies 5,  p.64.

Her writings are not MERELY opinion and claiming they are is insulting the Spirit of God

If you seek to turn aside the counsel of God to suit yourselves, He has sent them, you are rebelling against God as were Korah, Dathan, and Abriam.

Testimonies 5  p. 66.
Anything lessening confidence including causing doubt in Ellen White is rebelling against God

In my books, the truth is stated

Letter 90, 1906
Her books contain the TRUTH.

I testify the things which I have seen, the things which I have heard, the things which my hands have handled of the Word of life. And this testimony I know to be of the Father and the Son. We have seen and do testify that the power of the Holy Ghost has accompanied the presentation of the truth, warning with pen and voice, and giving the messages in their order. To deny this work would be to deny the Holy Ghost, and would place us in that company who have departed from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits.

Selected Messages Book 2, page 388.
To deny her work is to DENY HOLY SPIRIT.
If this is no claim of inspiration, then there is no inspiration

And what about equating herself to Paul?
Read this verse first
Hebrews 1:1-2 NIV Live
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

And compare it to this

In ancient times God spoke to men by the mouth of prophets and apostles.  In these days He speaks to them by the *testimonies of His Spirit.  There never was a time when God instructed His people more earnestly then He instructs them now concerning His will and the course that He would have them pursue.

Testimonies 4  p. 147
*testimonies are Ellen White writings
Ellen White SUBSTITUTES Jesus with her writings. God is done with apostles and prophets, now it is Ellen White!

Quick summary
1. Her writings are no opinion, and it insults Holy Spirit to assert they are
2. Lessening confidence in them aka doubting and/causing others to doubt any of them is rebellion against God
3. Denying her work is denying Holy Ghost. vooke is denying Holy Ghost!
So once again, what is the difference between Ellen White inspiration and infallibility claims and Papal infallibility?
4. Her writings contain Truth
5. Whereas God in the past spoke through prophets and apostles, he now speaks by Ellen White writings

And just in case am accused of quoting Ellen White out of context, let's look at how Adventists understand her;

The Bible and the writings of Ellen White are inerrant.

Sabbath School-Quarterly; Feb. 11, 1978, Teacher's Edition, p. 112.

We believe the revelation and inspiration of both the Bible and Ellen White's writings to be of equal quality. The superintendence of the Holy Spirit was just as careful and thorough in one case as in the other.

Ministry, October 1981.

[GeeMail]

As a believer, I am extremely thankful to God for the inspiration in Ellen G. White's writings. Should I find contradiction with scripture, the way to go is obvious. Prophecy is one of the gifts promised in the scriptures (Joel 2 and I Cor 12) and I believe God did not give the promise in vain. When the gift manifests in a person, be it Ellen G. White or another, alignment with scripture is one thing I check.

I also believe there are wolves in sheep's clothing (Matt 7:15,16). When this evil gift manifests itself, our duty is to pray for their deliverance.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt+7&version=KJV
Matt 7
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

[vooke]

As a believer, I am extremely thankful to God for the inspiration in Ellen G. White's writings. Should I find contradiction with scripture, the way to go is obvious. Prophecy is one of the gifts promised in the scriptures (Joel 2 and I Cor 12) and I believe God did not give the promise in vain. When the gift manifests in a person, be it Ellen G. White or another, alignment with scripture is one thing I check.

I also believe there are wolves in sheep's clothing (Matt 7:15,16). When this evil gift manifests itself, our duty is to pray for their deliverance.

You know Nuff Sed, you can say a lot of things without saying anything. According to your religion, the Bible and EGW writings bear  the same quality of inspiration and revelation

We believe the revelation and inspiration of both the Bible and Ellen White's writings to be of equal quality. The superintendence of the Holy Spirit was just as careful and thorough in one case as in the other.

Ministry, October 1981.
https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1981/10/

Either you believe this or you don't. If you do, please explain to me how different you are from a Catholic who believes in papal infallibility, when both of you believe an extrabiblical person is both inspired and infallible. A catholic believes in several guys while Nuff Sed believes in just one Ellen White.

Both of you are equally 'grateful' for the inspiration and infallibility of this man and you don't hesitate to turn to them for counsel and doctrine.

Prophecy was not given in vain we agree. But prophecy that manifests for 60 years right up to 96AD, and only one person exercise this gift 1746 years later and 100 years after her demise nobody operates it nor is nobody expected to have it is cultism. An Adventist believes in prophecy only to accommodate EGW.

Joel 2:28-29 (KJV)
28 And it shall come to pass afterward,
that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids
in those days will I pour out my spirit.

Nuff Sed, how can this be fulfilled if 'all flesh', 'sons and daughters' refer to one woman in 1900 years?
On the day of Pentecost when Peter boldly claimed that this was fulfilled, we had over 100 people baptized with the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues, and this promise we are assured is for all who believe. We have Philip's 4 daughters prophesying.

[GeeMail]

If you want to address me, you know what name to use. Do not attribute to Nuff sed what Daily Bread writes.
Ellen G. White writings were inspired just like the Bible was inspired. She did not call herself a prophetess nor did she say she is infallible. Where and if there is conflict between her writings and the Bible, the direction to follow is obvious. She stated and said as much.

The Bible promises the gift of prophecy and also warns that in the last days false prophets will come.

Matt 7
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

I know false prophets have come and Nipate is not exempt in these last days. We have known them by their fruits. Do you believe that? With that kind of fulfilment and by the same token, it's a no-brainer to believe the fulfilment of Joel 2 in Ellen G. White.

[vooke]

If you want to address me, you know what name to use. Do not attribute to Nuff sed what Daily Bread writes.
Ellen G. White writings were inspired just like the Bible was inspired. She did not call herself a prophetess nor did she say she is infallible. Where a

nd if there is conflict between her writings and the Bible, the direction to follow is obvious. She stated and said as much.

The Bible promises the gift of prophecy and also warns that in the last days false prophets will come.

Matt 7
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

I know false prophets have come and Nipate is not exempt in these last days. We have known them by their fruits. Do you believe that? With that kind of fulfilment and by the same token, it's a no-brainer to believe the fulfilment of Joel 2 in Ellen G. White.

Nuff Sed,
You are free to believe whatever you will, Indians drink cow piss in the name of religion. But there is no difference between Adventism and Catholicism;both firmly believe in infallibility of extra-biblical characters. In fact, catholicism is smarter Adventism as they have room for Popes to issue general statements without claiming they are inspired or God's word. Your brain-damaged lunatic insists none of her writings is her OPINION,and to think thus is too rebel against God. So if she thinks there are 12ft giants in Jupiter swiming in Hydrogen, Nuff Sed and her alter Daily Bread has no choice but to swallow that garbage.

Fallible inspiration is oxyMORONIC at best. If Ellen White was inspired but fallible then so was Paul otherwise please share with me the criteria for calling either's work nfallible and not the other.

So before you mock Catholicism and call them Babylon, look at Adventism first you hypocrite.

False prophets will arise and mislead many, thankfully Ellen White's madness and falsehood is relatively contained and only the hopelessly brainless and ignorant look to her as a prophet.


PS: there equally is no difference between Mormons and Adventists;
-BOTH believe Joseph Smith and Ellen White respectively are God's prophets for this generation
-Both believe their founder prophets' writings are INSPIRED and INFALLIBLE
-Both are founded on mysticism; visions and dreams are vigorously employed to vindicate their respective teachings
-Both while believing in spiritual gifts contend that inspiration is only a reserve of their founders
-Both teach that ignoring their founder's writings is damnable heresy and it leads to perdition
-Both punctuate their paraphernalia with their founder's writings
-Both demand that a test of faith is believing in their founder prophets

[MOON Ki]

These religious "debates" are very entertaining.   Verses from the Bible are pulled up and piled one on top of each other.   Authorities are quoted.  "Biblical erudition" shines on display at every turn.  But there is not the slightest hint of any enlightenment or even an improvement in mutual understanding.   Or any sort of  understanding of anything at all.  Reminds me of Christ's biggest problem with the Pharisees: they got lost in their debates and hair-splitting and forgot what it was really supposed to be about.

So, if I may ask: have you folks ever considered  alternatives to these mine-is bigger-righter-than-yours exchanges of bashings?   

[GeeMail]

These religious "debates" are very entertaining.   Verses from the Bible are pulled up and piled one on top of each other.   Authorities are quoted.  "Biblical erudition" shines on display at every turn.  But there is not the slightest hint of any enlightenment or even an improvement in mutual understanding.   Or any sort of  understanding of anything at all.  Reminds me of Christ's biggest problem with the Pharisees: they got lost in their debates and hair-splitting and forgot what it was really supposed to be about.

So, if I may ask: have you folks ever considered  alternatives to these mine-is bigger-righter-than-yours exchanges of bashings?   

MoonKi that's an interesting observation and has much to be appreciated. It is sobering to realize that while we were throwing barbs, the "children" were watching (not to belittle age). Yes, we seem to have dug in our positions like the Pharisees and forgotten the bigger picture. However, as we recently saw in the debate on the "vegan/Adventist diet" there are times when barbs are thrown and names trodden underfoot (Ellen G. White is Voke's favorite carpet in this section). There are also times when people pretend not to understand what's being said. You posted a comment showing you saw the sense in the Adventist diet and wondered whether Voke's problem was only because it came from Ellen G. White's pen.

Whenever Voke posts something, I check to see what anti-White websites he's been visiting and surprisingly, I learn a lot of new things, or old things as seen anew by the anti-White brigade. Just for the record, I have previously commended Voke for his tenacity and for helping me as an Adventist to see things from "the outside". There's a lot of learning going on here, but understanding or mending fences I'm not so sure. Christ had interesting things to say about Pharisees and scribes (Matt 5:20 and Matt 23 for example). He could have ignored the Scribes, Pharisees and Sadduccees, but He didn't. He said something about their religious practices and doctrines. Purporting to be religious authorities, they spread lies, deception and malice through false teachings in the name of God. Jesus, the Truth, could not remain silent as this pernicious seed sprouted among His people.

Veritas created a "Controversial" section for religious debates, showing there is interest in them. The hits on the truly controversial posts are evidence enough. God's word to believers on such matters is clear:

Ephesians 5:11King James Version (KJV)
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

So when false prophets come to entice the Nipate flock with smooth words and suave preaching, should we remain silent? I say, no. The Nipate congregation for whom Christ shed His blood is too precious to be left to the vagaries of falsehood and deception. Our greater duty is to love all and to warn the children of men to be ready for Christ's soon coming.

[vooke]

Nuff Sed,
I forgot to add that Mormons too have a strict dietary regime. You guys have much in common with them

[vooke]

Shall we accept the view that a Seventh-day Adventist theologian is more dependable than a Seventh-day Adventist prophet? I highly respect many of our Seventh-day Adventist theologians. I have sat at their feet and been taught by them. I admire and respect them highly. I would like to remind you, however, that you can search the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and you will not find a single text marking out theologians as having the gift of the Holy Sprit. The Scriptures indicate however, that prophets have a gift of the Holy Spirit. Ellen White had that gift and she was canonical insofar as doctrinal interpretation is concerned.

Letter from D. A. Delafield trustee of the EGW Estate, to P. C. Drewer, June 24, 1981.
Nuff Sed,
Look at this circular reasoning;
1.we believe Ellen White is a prophet
2. We believe nobody  else is a prophet including Adventist theologians

Conclusion
if you believe Ellen White is a prophet, whenever there is a conflict between her writings any any theologian or yourself,her stance prevails because you and Adventist theologians have no gift of prophecy

Where is circular reasoning? Her claims to prophetic gift come from her writings!

[vooke]

Hello Nuff Sed aka louvre aka Daily Bread

The Bible is an infallible guide but it needs to be infallibly interpreted, to avoid confusion and division. When will the people of God cease trusting in their own wisdom? When will they come to the place where they will cease to measure, construe, and interpret by their own reason what God says to them through His appointed channel? When we come to the place where we place no trust in man or in the wisdom of man, but unquestionably accept and act upon what God says through this gift, then will the spirit of prophecy as set before us in the Bible and confirmed among us and become in fact a counselor, guide and final court of appeal among God's people".[

Adventist Review, June 3. 1971, p, 6. The Source of Final Appeal, By Roderick S. Owen.

And a screenshot for anyone too lazy to click this link

[GeeMail]

What an inspiring magazine? I love the story of JC Penney at Battle Creek Sanitarium. Once again, I commend Voke publicly for trawling the net and fishing out such gems.

[vooke]

What an inspiring magazine? I love the story of JC Penney at Battle Creek Sanitarium. Once again, I commend Voke publicly for trawling the net and fishing out such gems.

Excuse me Nuff Sed, it's vooke not Voke but I don't say
Catholicism has an infallible interpreter of Scripture the Popes for nearly 2K years and now the SDA Church has a female Pope to infallibly interpret Scripture.  The difference is gender and of course count; Catholicism popes are many and strictly males whiche Adventism has just one and she is female. Pope Ellen White 

How advantaged the Seventh-day Adventist Church is to have a modern inspired interpreter of both the Old and New Testaments! Surely there is every logical reason to give the inspired interpretation top priority in arriving at our understanding of the world today.

     
Sabbath School Quarterly, April-June 1976, p. 92. Lesson Author Gordon M. Hyde, Editor W. Richard Lesher.