Author Topic: Panic Has Entered Kenya; God Help Us  (Read 18346 times)

Offline vooke

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Re: Panic Has Entered Kenya; God Help Us
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2015, 12:48:28 PM »
Persecutions are as old as Christianity. Jesus tells us to EXPECT them. So telling us about increased persecution is as prophetic as saying Jesus will return. What is bordeline retarded is crafting an apocalypse with sabbath at the center of the battle and SDAs on one corner vs America and Roman Catholic Church on the other. Adventism knows no limit to schizophrenia.

Nothing moves the heartless SDAs, not even the butchery of the 30 Ethiopians by the Mediterranean Sea, as long as Nuff Sed is not losing her head over her beloved Saturday, there is no persecution in this wretched world. Show her a calendar with Monday as first day of the week and she will burst your eardrums with screams of 'National Sunday Law' BS

Unless you are the beast, you have no business telling us which religious-state body will or will not persecute. History is full of such promises which were not kept. Islam also says it is a religion of peace.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline vooke

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Re: Panic Has Entered Kenya; God Help Us
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2015, 12:56:23 PM »
Omorlo,
How many survivors of this attack do we have?
Are we saying that they are all on a tight leash? Why can't activists approach them if we don't trust the media seeing it is compromised.

I have asked you this question before;
How hard is it to contact the 166 families of the missing? Add to this the survivors and their families. Surely they would know by now who died and who survived. This is a school after all, a close community. On the contrary I have watched several clips of survivors interviewed.

You have every right to mistrust authorities but taking this too far leads you down the same rabbit hole as Auntie Hubris and his neo-con-Zionist conspiracies.

While we may berate the medi for not aksin 'hard' questions such as these, I also blame them for not pinning the proponents of the 166-missing-students theories. How did they arrive at the figure? Do they have the names? What is the college administration saying? And so forth


A mass burial as imagined by Alai of 166 would lead to some serious murmuring. How can 166 families be silenced with their missing kids and missing bodies and GoK indifference? Mass kidnapping theory too has weaknesses. Where would you take them at night and using what means? And your accomplices theory as well. An attack involving over 100 students is hard to imagine. In ALL Al shabab attacks, they have involved far fewer fighters. Now imagine over 100 students sleepers?
Termie

GoK detained all survivors and sequestered them to avoid the media. The media people have imposed self-censorship. There have been cases of open defiance at funerals where Uhuru Kenyatta's speech has been discarded amid protests. Note that he never attended a single one nor mobilized the many useless Jubilee Ministers, Senators and Principal Secretaries to represent Sirkal in the funerals. Its not because he didn't see the cheap PR opportunity but in line with the policy of secret burials of KDF fallen soldiers, this was to end as fast and as quietly as possible. On this occasion too, the Opposition seems to have played ball. Raila did not attend any funerals nor make any hard hitting statements.

What I am saying is if you look very carefully you would notice an invisible hand working tirelessly to control information. I read the latest gaffes by Ole Nkai-silly defending the attack on journalists and wonder where Jubilee is heading. Unless there is another Okwemba, the one I know is an old man who cannot recover from broken bones. How can a whole Internal Security CS claim that journalists carry guns in their cameras? Is he inciting violence against journalists? However watch how silent they are in the face of this abuse.

Yesterday a major scandal rolled out and landed in the ground seemingly unnoticed. Sonko has been bribing journalists to censor any critical stories about him. On this occasion he gave out a huge cash bribe that caused the Swahili service journalists of citizen TV to fight to near death. I understand they are suspended. Now many Kenyans are wondering just how that is possible. Journalists dog politicians on a daily basis for money so they can sex up stories. Those who pay get the best stories while those who refuse suffer bad publicity.

Many politicians have now learned. I know a governor or two who have employed a battery of qualified journalists and equipped them on the same lines as the UKSPU (Uhuru Kenyatta Spin and Propaganda Unit). Journalists assigned to cover these governors are kept in luxury hotels with alcohol and prostitutes and later handed ready made videos for a quick audio synchronization. They never even have an idea of what it is they are broadcasting.

Sorry for the rant but I wanted to show you one of the reasons why you may not hear much from the media.
Omollo,

I have heard mention of missing students. 

What stands out to me?  That the story has not come from the survivors.  Fellow students, some of whom would surely know about it.

While it's important to account for everyone.  This particular story seems like reaching.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Omollo

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Re: Panic Has Entered Kenya; God Help Us
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2015, 01:29:09 PM »
Quote
A freelance photographer was arrested on suspicion of being a terrorist at Galleria Mall in Karen, Nairobi on Tuesday night.

Police said Msingi Sasis was arrested after he was seen taking pictures in the premises.

"The police came to his rescue after members of the public claimed he was suspiciously taking photographs without their consent," an officer said.


He said the photographer was taken to Lang'ata Police Station where he spent the night after he was booked in as a "terror suspect".

Sasis is still under investigation, the officer said.

His brother Victor claimed they were only allowed to see him after pleading.

"On arrival at the police station we were notified that Msingi was not there which really shocked us, but with great pleading we were able to see him," he said.

He said Sasis slipped them a note saying he was terrified and asked them to contact an activist.

"We are very worried because he looked traumatised and kept on saying he might be transferred to any location because they say he is a terror suspect. The current situation makes it very dangerous," he said.

Lang'ata OCPD Elijah Mwangi said he could not comment since he was off duty while deputy OCPD Mwangi Kuria declined saying he could not verify the reporter's identity.

- See more at: http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/photographer-arrested-terror-suspect-galleria-mall-held-questioning#sthash.RVuerYYe.dpuf
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline Omollo

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Re: Panic Has Entered Kenya; God Help Us
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2015, 02:11:05 PM »
The question of keeping the survivors on a tight leash first arose during the siege. I am almost sure you did raise it at some point if not somebody else (here or at choo.com). Interviews took place during the siege - (which I have condemned as a huge mistake because an average Somali follows BBC and by extrapolation the Somali terrorists inside the death hostels could have followed the stories about hiding students on mobile-phones).

Then came the clamp down when all the survivors were all taken to Nairobi ostensibly for counselling. After emerging from there,  their testimonies have been mechanical and almost coached (my personal subjective opinion). Stories of feeding on cosmetics, or is it lady gay to survive have been sold to British tabloids and many are now "famous". I smell a stinking rat! Could Tony Blair be earning his cash at last???

Contacting the 166: Here you make some assumptions. You take it for granted that everybody knows who these people are and that they have bona fide families with addresses that one can contact. You are getting in to the Garlic logic.

First of all if nobody is coming forward to ask for the whereabouts of the missing students then it should raise red flags rather than have a calming effect. It would be suggesting that:

(a) The missing have no guardians / parents
(b) The guardians / parents care nothing or have not heard of the tragedy
(c) The said missing were "ghost" students to milk the system
(d) They were an advance Al Shabaab "sleeper" squad.


Secondly, it is the duty and responsibility of the security forces to scan through the admission and contact data of the students and verify the information. This must be done for ALL the GUC students and lecturers - not just the missing. A crime has been committed and the possible accomplices remain unknown. It could also be any of the lecturers, the subordinate staff or neighbors. I can volunteer to do the screening for free.

Is this a conspiracy theory? Nope! The difference between what I am saying and a conspiracy theory is that I am asking questions and making suggestions about what could have been done and what can still be done. I am NOT alleging inconceivables and the raving loony tales such as:  GoK staged this and then covered it up and that it actually happened in 2001 and this was just a hollywood show staged and acted in Garissa to get the President of Turkey to accuse the Pope of genocide.

These are suggestions to improve security not undermine it.

BTW nobody imagines this is the last attack. Nothing has changed and nothing is changing which means more such grisly attacks will be attempted. We all have to chip in. Who know, it could be your church next!

I did not create the figure 166. GoK did. They have subsequently tried to reduce it by upping the number of students rescued. I have addressed the discrepancies in detail elsewhere. vooke, I have studied matters of security as part of my job and I can assure you missing anything is very important and leads to sleepless nights.

1. A missing car for example could return booby trapped;
2. A missing staff member may return dressed up in a suicide vest;
3. A missing photocopier could be "found" with explosives, listening devices and hostile human or snake inside, etc.


My plea remains that not enough attention has been paid to a crucial part of the attack. Important information to be used in future to prevent the attacks may be lost.

For example, if they found that the "theory" of advance sleeper squads is real, then a quiet screening of ALL colleges and universities could save lives.

The college admin gave the figure of the enrolled and present and added nothing.

I don not agree with the claim that Al Shabaab uses few attackers. The last video of Mpeketoni shows a very large group. We have no idea if that was the only group. They had enough time to bury their dead (a grave that remains untraced to date - unless GoK has kept it secret). They bring their own media crew and obviously a lot of support staff.

From what we learned of the Westgate attack; the organizers left for Somalia once the attack began. The others hovered around for a while before also escaping leaving behind suicide bombers to create a diversion while the main group escaped.

I have no idea nor can I speculate where the 166 are. I have already provided several scenarios (scroll up) which include ghost students.

I do not share Alai's view on mass burials. I posted it somewhere to irritate the irritable
Omorlo,
How many survivors of this attack do we have?
Are we saying that they are all on a tight leash? Why can't activists approach them if we don't trust the media seeing it is compromised.

I have asked you this question before;
How hard is it to contact the 166 families of the missing? Add to this the survivors and their families. Surely they would know by now who died and who survived. This is a school after all, a close community. On the contrary I have watched several clips of survivors interviewed.

You have every right to mistrust authorities but taking this too far leads you down the same rabbit hole as Auntie Hubris and his neo-con-Zionist conspiracies.

While we may berate the medi for not aksin 'hard' questions such as these, I also blame them for not pinning the proponents of the 166-missing-students theories. How did they arrive at the figure? Do they have the names? What is the college administration saying? And so forth


A mass burial as imagined by Alai of 166 would lead to some serious murmuring. How can 166 families be silenced with their missing kids and missing bodies and GoK indifference? Mass kidnapping theory too has weaknesses. Where would you take them at night and using what means? And your accomplices theory as well. An attack involving over 100 students is hard to imagine. In ALL Al shabab attacks, they have involved far fewer fighters. Now imagine over 100 students sleepers?
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline vooke

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Re: Panic Has Entered Kenya; God Help Us
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2015, 02:15:31 PM »
Omorlo,
Nobody discounts the merits of a thorough investigation into the 'missing'. Question is do we have 'missing' students in the first place.

The media as usual went wild and reported several things including differing numbers of the deaf and rescued. I think this is normal. Students was fleeing throughout, killings was over the college not on one point. The apparent GoK reluctance to share the final tally appears to be your strongest indication of a coverup. You have even gone as far as suggesting it is possible given the quiet KDF death toll in Somalia and burials.

What I have done is to RULE out the least likely scenarios;

GoK hiding the final count is extremely difficult especially in such an organized place; this is a school with records of everyone on the compound unlike Westgate. And the 'hidden' deaths would have been students known to somebody and belonging to families. Remember 'hidden' means they was actual students.

Kidnapping is not even worth discussing.

Sleeper cells of 166 out of 800 students is......a distant possibility.

We never had dozens of gunmen at Westgate, just the few everyone saw landing in a Probox. I don't understand why we are inclined to imagine that it takes more than the 4-5 gunmen to do it. Of course it is far more exciting exaggerating GoK failure...perfectly understandable

We are only left with ghost students, and even this only if we have any 'missing' students in the first place. Missing students is unwarranted and unsubstantiated sensational claims at best
The question of keeping the survivors on a tight leash first arose during the siege. I am almost sure you did raise it at some point if not somebody else (here or at choo.com). Interviews took place during the siege - which I have condemned as a huge mistake because an average Somali follows BBC and by extrapolation the Somali terrorists inside the death hostels could have followed the stories about hiding students on mobile-phones.

Then came the clamp down when they were all taken to Nairobi ostensibly for counselling. After emerging their testimonies have been mechanical and almost coached (my personal subjective opinion). Stories of feeding on cosmetics to survive have been sold to British tabloids and many are now "famous". I smell a stinking rat! Could Tony Blair be earning his cash at last???

Contacting the 166: Here you make some assumptions. You take it for granted that everybody knows who these people are and that they have bona fide families with addresses that one can contact. You are getting in to the Garlic logic.

First of all if nobody is coming forward to ask for the whereabouts of the missing students then it should raise red flags rather than have a calming effect. It would be suggesting that:
(a) The missing have no guardians / parents
(b) The guardians / parents care nothing or have not heard of the tragedy
(c) The said missing were "ghost" students to milk the system
(d) They were an advance Al Shabaab "sleeper" squad.

Secondly, it is the duty and responsibility of the security forces to scan through the admission and contact data of the students and verify the information. This must be done for ALL the GUC students and lecturers - not just the missing. A crime has been committed and the possible accomplices remain unknown. It could also be any of the lecturers, the subordinate staff or neighbors. I can volunteer to do the screening for free.

The difference between what I am saying and a conspiracy theory is that I am asking questions and making suggestions about what could have been done and what can still be done. I am NOT alleging inconceivables and the raving loony tales such as:  GoK staged this and then covered it up and that it actually happened in 2001 and this was just a hollywood show staged and acted in Garissa to get the President of Turkey to accuse the Pope of genocide. These are suggestions to improve security. BTW nobody imagines this is the last attack. Nothing has changed and nothing is changing which means more such grisly attacks will be attempted. We all have to chip in. Who know, it could be your church next!

I did not create the figure 166. GoK did. They have subsequently tried to reduce it by upping the number of students rescued. I have addressed the discrepancies in detail elsewhere. vooke, I have studied matters of security as part of my job and I can assure you missing anything is very important.

A missing car for example could return booby trapped; A missing staff member may return dressed up in a suicide vest; A missing photocopier could be "found" with explosives, listening devices and hostile human or snake inside, etc. My plea remains that not enough attention has been paid to a crucial part of the attack. Important information to be used in future to prevent the attacks may be lost.

For example, if they found that the "theory" of advance sleeper squads is real, then a quiet screening of ALL colleges and universities could save lives.

The college admin gave the figure of the enrolled and present and added nothing.

I don not agree with the claim that Al Shabaab uses few attackers. The last video of Mpeketoni shows a very large group. We have no idea if that was the only group. They had enough time to bury their dead (a grave that remains untraced to date - unless GoK has kept it secret). They bring their own media crew and obviously a lot of support staff.

From what we learned of the Westgate attack; the organizers left for Somalia once the attack began. The others hovered around for a while before also escaping leaving behind suicide bombers to create a diversion while the main group escaped.

I have no idea nor can I speculate where the 166 are. I have already provided several scenarios (scroll up) which include ghost students.

I do not share Alai's view on mass burials. I posted it somewhere to irritate the irritable
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline GeeMail

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Re: Panic Has Entered Kenya; God Help Us
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2015, 02:54:54 PM »
There was a FaceBook page for missing students. What are the tallies so far? Another very remote place where the missing students could be traced is from the Italian embassy. Remote because it is unlikely they will report if they were sleeper cells.
Celebratory violence: 2017 crime invented to justify killings to prevent Raila from becoming PORK. http://www.nipate.com/download/file.php?id=4244

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Re: Panic Has Entered Kenya; God Help Us
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2015, 03:04:08 PM »
Your anti-Adventist crusade knows no bounds. I already posted for you documented persecution from
https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/ and all you did was to accuse the website of being Adventist and add your usual dose of ad hominem. Let me add http://www.pewforum.org/2014/01/14/religious-hostilities-reach-six-year-high/ just in case.


Persecutions are as old as Christianity. Jesus tells us to EXPECT them. So telling us about increased persecution is as prophetic as saying Jesus will return. What is bordeline retarded is crafting an apocalypse with sabbath at the center of the battle and SDAs on one corner vs America and Roman Catholic Church on the other. Adventism knows no limit to schizophrenia.

Nothing moves the heartless SDAs, not even the butchery of the 30 Ethiopians by the Mediterranean Sea, as long as Nuff Sed is not losing her head over her beloved Saturday, there is no persecution in this wretched world. Show her a calendar with Monday as first day of the week and she will burst your eardrums with screams of 'National Sunday Law' BS

Unless you are the beast, you have no business telling us which religious-state body will or will not persecute. History is full of such promises which were not kept. Islam also says it is a religion of peace.
Celebratory violence: 2017 crime invented to justify killings to prevent Raila from becoming PORK. http://www.nipate.com/download/file.php?id=4244

Offline vooke

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Re: Panic Has Entered Kenya; God Help Us
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2015, 03:12:32 PM »
What. Was EGW smoking to imagine USA teaming with Roman Catholic Church to behead SDAs for sabbath keeping? Is that not your ENDGAME? Is there anything else you look forward to apart from NATIONAL SUNDAY LAW and SDAs beheading on account of sabbath?

I can forgive EGW; she was illiterate, schizo, retarded and a plagiarist so much that she dubbed a sci-Fi novel about Jupiter's Giants. But what is Nuff Sed's excuse?

Unthaw your brains my sista
Your anti-Adventist crusade knows no bounds. I already posted for you documented persecution from
https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/ and all you did was to accuse the website of being Adventist and add your usual dose of ad hominem. Let me add http://www.pewforum.org/2014/01/14/religious-hostilities-reach-six-year-high/ just in case.

Persecutions are as old as Christianity. Jesus tells us to EXPECT them. So telling us about increased persecution is as prophetic as saying Jesus will return. What is bordeline retarded is crafting an apocalypse with sabbath at the center of the battle and SDAs on one corner vs America and Roman Catholic Church on the other. Adventism knows no limit to schizophrenia.

Nothing moves the heartless SDAs, not even the butchery of the 30 Ethiopians by the Mediterranean Sea, as long as Nuff Sed is not losing her head over her beloved Saturday, there is no persecution in this wretched world. Show her a calendar with Monday as first day of the week and she will burst your eardrums with screams of 'National Sunday Law' BS

Unless you are the beast, you have no business telling us which religious-state body will or will not persecute. History is full of such promises which were not kept. Islam also says it is a religion of peace.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline GeeMail

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Re: Panic Has Entered Kenya; God Help Us
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2015, 03:20:02 PM »
Religious persecution is well documented. Go slow on ad hominem. And I'm not sure where you got the notion that someone said the US and the Catholic church will behead people in tandem. Some religions may justify persecution of 'non-believers' and conversions by the gun. What concerns me is persecution of believers by fellow 'believers'.

What. Was EGW smoking to imagine USA teaming with Roman Catholic Church to behead SDAs for sabbath keeping? Is that not your ENDGAME? Is there anything else you look forward to apart from NATIONAL SUNDAY LAW and SDAs beheading on account of sabbath?

I can forgive EGW; she was illiterate, schizo, retarded and a plagiarist so much that she dubbed a sci-Fi novel about Jupiter's Giants. But what is Nuff Sed's excuse?

Unthaw your brains my sista
Your anti-Adventist crusade knows no bounds. I already posted for you documented persecution from
https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/ and all you did was to accuse the website of being Adventist and add your usual dose of ad hominem. Let me add http://www.pewforum.org/2014/01/14/religious-hostilities-reach-six-year-high/ just in case.

Persecutions are as old as Christianity. Jesus tells us to EXPECT them. So telling us about increased persecution is as prophetic as saying Jesus will return. What is bordeline retarded is crafting an apocalypse with sabbath at the center of the battle and SDAs on one corner vs America and Roman Catholic Church on the other. Adventism knows no limit to schizophrenia.

Nothing moves the heartless SDAs, not even the butchery of the 30 Ethiopians by the Mediterranean Sea, as long as Nuff Sed is not losing her head over her beloved Saturday, there is no persecution in this wretched world. Show her a calendar with Monday as first day of the week and she will burst your eardrums with screams of 'National Sunday Law' BS

Unless you are the beast, you have no business telling us which religious-state body will or will not persecute. History is full of such promises which were not kept. Islam also says it is a religion of peace.
Celebratory violence: 2017 crime invented to justify killings to prevent Raila from becoming PORK. http://www.nipate.com/download/file.php?id=4244

Offline Bella

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Re: Panic Has Entered Kenya; God Help Us
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2015, 03:20:49 PM »
They have fired Garissa cops. I just don't get it. Why no one's head is rolling over the shenanigans that made sure that Recce took hours to get to Garissa??? Did they ignore intelligence or something? I don't get. Amina said the intel was not actionable and from my understanding, the Garissa guys were just overwhelmed by superior firepower and lack of bullet-proof vests (and training, for that matter!), so either way you look at it, the National heads in Nairobi are to blame.

Daily Bread has managed to take a discussion on national insecurity that doesn't care for SDAs or Catholics or Protestants at all, and turn it into a discussion on how/ when the SDAs will one day be persecuted for going to church on Saturday :o Some moderation here is in order, surely. These posts on what SDAs believe will happen to them that hasn't ever happened in 150 years of Adventism should be put in their own topic or taken to the controversial sub-forum instead of clogging this discussion.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline vooke

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Re: Panic Has Entered Kenya; God Help Us
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2015, 03:23:53 PM »
Religious persecution is well documented. Go slow on ad hominem. And I'm not sure where you got the notion that someone said the US and the Catholic church will behead people in tandem.
This garbage is straight from your 'inspired' sewers  Nuff Sed. Religious (non-SDA) powers unite, they exert enough power on the civil authority so much as to affect legislation,they then criminalize Sabbath keeping.

Quote
The end of all things is at hand. The time of trouble is about to come upon the people of God. Then it is that the decree will go forth forbidding those who keep the Sabbath of the Lord to buy or sell, and threatening them with punishment, and even death, if they do not observe the first day of the week as the Sabbath."28
http://www.nonegw.org/nsl/egw22a.htm

Quote


Quote
Some religions may justify persecution of 'non-believers' and conversions by the gun. What concerns me is persecution of believers by fellow 'believers'.
What should concern you more is how much garbage you believe is inspired, isn't that blaspheming Holy Spirit imagining this is His job?
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

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Re: Panic Has Entered Kenya; God Help Us
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2015, 03:26:34 PM »
He blamed the Garissa killings on religious extremism saying leaders should unite and fight vices that threaten peace and harmony in the country.

- See more at: http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/uhuru-vows-hunt-down-hate-preachers#sthash.UlHbFv93.dpuf

They have fired Garissa cops. I just don't get it. Why no one's head is rolling over the shenanigans that made sure that Recce took hours to get to Garissa??? Did they ignore intelligence or something? I don't get. Amina said the intel was not actionable and from my understanding, the Garissa guys were just overwhelmed by superior firepower and lack of bullet-proof vests (and training, for that matter!), so either way you look at it, the National heads in Nairobi are to blame.

Daily Bread has managed to take a discussion on national insecurity that doesn't care for SDAs or Catholics or Protestants at all, and turn it into a discussion on how/ when the SDAs will one day be persecuted for going to church on Saturday :o Some moderation here is in order, surely. These posts on what SDAs believe will happen to them that hasn't ever happened in 150 years of Adventism should be put in their own topic or taken to the controversial sub-forum instead of clogging this discussion.
Celebratory violence: 2017 crime invented to justify killings to prevent Raila from becoming PORK. http://www.nipate.com/download/file.php?id=4244

Offline vooke

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Re: Panic Has Entered Kenya; God Help Us
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2015, 03:53:42 PM »
You are the one injecting totally unrelated motif on this thread, I suppose the current theory in SDA circles is worldwide persecution of SDAs by non-SDAs as predicted by EGW is no more a remote possibility seeing Islamic extremism is here with us

He blamed the Garissa killings on religious extremism saying leaders should unite and fight vices that threaten peace and harmony in the country.

- See more at: http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/uhuru-vows-hunt-down-hate-preachers#sthash.UlHbFv93.dpuf

They have fired Garissa cops. I just don't get it. Why no one's head is rolling over the shenanigans that made sure that Recce took hours to get to Garissa??? Did they ignore intelligence or something? I don't get. Amina said the intel was not actionable and from my understanding, the Garissa guys were just overwhelmed by superior firepower and lack of bullet-proof vests (and training, for that matter!), so either way you look at it, the National heads in Nairobi are to blame.

Daily Bread has managed to take a discussion on national insecurity that doesn't care for SDAs or Catholics or Protestants at all, and turn it into a discussion on how/ when the SDAs will one day be persecuted for going to church on Saturday :o Some moderation here is in order, surely. These posts on what SDAs believe will happen to them that hasn't ever happened in 150 years of Adventism should be put in their own topic or taken to the controversial sub-forum instead of clogging this discussion.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Bella

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Re: Panic Has Entered Kenya; God Help Us
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2015, 03:57:57 PM »
Daily Bread, I am sure you have read the post in which I appealed to vooke just a few days ago, to give you some space, so suffice it to say, your complaint here about my "silence" is hypocritical. You introduced purely Christian denominational fights here with zero to do with terrorism or the massacre, you are the one who provided the bait that vooke took in responding to you. Garissa people were targeted as Christians, not SDAs, yet you are talking about SDAs and Saturday. If that is not off-topic, I don't know what is. Also, I haven't attacked you, I have simply asked that this side-shows be put in their own discussions where they will be the main topic and not side-shows messing up another discussion.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline GeeMail

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Re: Panic Has Entered Kenya; God Help Us
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2015, 04:17:25 PM »
Bella,
I greatly appreciate that you asked Voke to give me space. That was in a forum where he is moderator. While I acknowledge it with gratitude, I'm specific that he has followed me to this discussion and brought up Adventism. Looks like he didn't hear you. In your opinion he has characteristically swallowed my bait. Be patient though. Discussions can morph in certain natural ways (see how media and censorship has come up). I'll lay off just in case you think the religious aspect is not relevant (Uhuru and I  :D think it does, if it matters). Pastor AD Hominem will be very glad I guess.   

Daily Bread, I am sure you have read the post in which I appealed to vooke just a few days ago, to give you some space, so suffice it to say, your complaint here about my "silence" is hypocritical. You introduced purely Christian denominational fights here with zero to do with terrorism or the massacre, you are the one who provided the bait that vooke took in responding to you. Garissa people were targeted as Christians, not SDAs, yet you are talking about SDAs and Saturday. If that is not off-topic, I don't know what is. Also, I haven't attacked you, I have simply asked that this side-shows be put in their own discussions where they will be the main topic and not side-shows messing up another discussion.
Celebratory violence: 2017 crime invented to justify killings to prevent Raila from becoming PORK. http://www.nipate.com/download/file.php?id=4244

Offline Omollo

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Re: Panic Has Entered Kenya; God Help Us
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2015, 04:27:53 PM »
I enjoy your debates and often read from the sidelines. You can be sure I have an eye and ear for ad hominem being both victim and ravisher at once.

I think you have slightly misunderstood him. He used that as an illustration, figure of speech or old style example. He could have said: Once Hitler went after Jews, it was only a matter of time before he move against Gypsies, Africans, Homosexuals, The Disabled or as Goebbels called it "Idiot".

At least that is how I understood it. SDA would be marked for marking the Sabbath as would the Jews etc.
They have fired Garissa cops. I just don't get it. Why no one's head is rolling over the shenanigans that made sure that Recce took hours to get to Garissa??? Did they ignore intelligence or something? I don't get. Amina said the intel was not actionable and from my understanding, the Garissa guys were just overwhelmed by superior firepower and lack of bullet-proof vests (and training, for that matter!), so either way you look at it, the National heads in Nairobi are to blame.

Daily Bread has managed to take a discussion on national insecurity that doesn't care for SDAs or Catholics or Protestants at all, and turn it into a discussion on how/ when the SDAs will one day be persecuted for going to church on Saturday :o Some moderation here is in order, surely. These posts on what SDAs believe will happen to them that hasn't ever happened in 150 years of Adventism should be put in their own topic or taken to the controversial sub-forum instead of clogging this discussion.
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline vooke

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Re: Panic Has Entered Kenya; God Help Us
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2015, 04:31:01 PM »
Terrorists use something they know true Christians cannot employ - deceit and violence. In the past, 'Christians' have employed violence to persecute true believers (see my signature).
True

Quote
The greatest proof of the divine hand in true Christianity is in the manner in which true Christians have restrained themselves from employing violence and deceit to counter the religious terrorists.
Give modern examples of this say in the last 150 years. Of course at the back of your mind, 'true Christianity' is your sect SDA because when they were 'persecuted' for sabbath keeping, they never fought back. But so are Jehovah's Witnesses and many diverse sects

Quote
Just like Christ could not use deceit and Bible misinterpretation to counter Satan, today's true Christians must guard against using violence to counter religious terrorism.
Is government's response by counterterrorism 'violence'? How would you have the government respond?
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If violence were to be employed, minority Christian groups like JWs, Sabbatarians and anti-trinitarians would be subjected to what the Roman church did to martyrs in the dark ages.
Ok. Christians should not solve their differences using violence

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And there lies the danger of church uniting with state.
How does violence employed to counter religious violence result in 'church uniting with state'?

Quote
At first it will be in the guise of fighting terrorism and soon after Christians will fight other Christians over the things they cannot agree on.
So.....if GoK employs violence in tackling religious terrorism, it is a precursor to Christian-Christian violence?

You have so unintelligently attempted to inject SDA persecution complex into this. Kadame rightfully tells you this is NATIONAL INSECURITY. Have you seen 'Christians' or Christians attempt to use violence anywhere? Have you heard such suggestions? What would you have GoK do?

You made several disjointed statements which points to a quick copy+pasting. You can see how you make little sense in attempting to share the risk of Christian-Christian terrorism (code word for SDAs being butchered over sabbath keeping) rising out of counter-terrorism
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Panic Has Entered Kenya; God Help Us
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2015, 05:35:19 PM »
Omollo,

I will be the first to tell anyone who cares to listen to trust utumishi kwa wote at their own peril.  What kind of person trusts these people?

Muchai, Yebei, Mercy Keino...these and similar cases will fail to be cracked in ways that can only be the result of a special effort.

Admittedly, I haven't followed the Garissa saga beyond what is in the mainstream.  But the motive for covering up 166 missing people escapes  me.

While I believe more than 147 died.  I don't think it was many more.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline gout

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Re: Panic Has Entered Kenya; God Help Us
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2015, 10:21:45 AM »
Panic is not a bad thing ... it leads to people awakening their natural instincts of fight or flight in cases of danger ... we are having very docile executive, judiciary, legislature, police, army, population given we have all grown up in 'island of peace' era mindset

this islamic extremism -al shaitan, boko haram, ISIs.... if it will have achieved one positive thing it is putting populations and institutions in affected nations out of their shallow comfort zones ...

when people start asking 'if uhuru/odinga/ruto can't protect my kid what is his use?' ...that is a milestone for our personal and collective societal development
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one ~ Thomas Paine

Offline GeeMail

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Re: Panic Has Entered Kenya; God Help Us
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2015, 10:48:31 AM »
I enjoy your debates and often read from the sidelines. You can be sure I have an eye and ear for ad hominem being both victim and ravisher at once.

I think you have slightly misunderstood him. He used that as an illustration, figure of speech or old style example. He could have said: Once Hitler went after Jews, it was only a matter of time before he move against Gypsies, Africans, Homosexuals, The Disabled or as Goebbels called it "Idiot".

At least that is how I understood it. SDA would be marked for marking the Sabbath as would the Jews etc.
They have fired Garissa cops. I just don't get it. Why no one's head is rolling over the shenanigans that made sure that Recce took hours to get to Garissa??? Did they ignore intelligence or something? I don't get. Amina said the intel was not actionable and from my understanding, the Garissa guys were just overwhelmed by superior firepower and lack of bullet-proof vests (and training, for that matter!), so either way you look at it, the National heads in Nairobi are to blame.

Daily Bread has managed to take a discussion on national insecurity that doesn't care for SDAs or Catholics or Protestants at all, and turn it into a discussion on how/ when the SDAs will one day be persecuted for going to church on Saturday :o Some moderation here is in order, surely. These posts on what SDAs believe will happen to them that hasn't ever happened in 150 years of Adventism should be put in their own topic or taken to the controversial sub-forum instead of clogging this discussion.
Omollo captures it very well. In a related development, I'm just hearing that KU students fled their hostels after a letter surfaced in the institution that Al Shabaab were planning a number on them. They refused to sleep in the hostels and could be found in places as far as K1. Hostels in places like Kahawa West were full to capacity. In an attempt to restore order, police have been poured into the university but the students are skeptical. In one stroke of terror, Al Shabaab have brought tourism in Kenya to nothing. Now university education is in shambles just like Omollo said.
I'm no advocate for violence but
Celebratory violence: 2017 crime invented to justify killings to prevent Raila from becoming PORK. http://www.nipate.com/download/file.php?id=4244