Author Topic: Ruto Competes With Uhuru In Refusal To Use Head  (Read 15896 times)

Offline Bella

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Re: Ruto Competes With Uhuru In Refusal To Use Head
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2015, 05:27:53 AM »

As for "genuine refugees turning into economic refugees", some people might have a problem with that. I don't.    Given what those people have endured, in their place I too would be inclined to move only to a much better situation.  (Of course, in this case I don't know all the details on either side of the border.)   I also note that when refugees, including African ones, are accepted in, say, Western countries, nobody really expects that them to return.   Not even when they start off on "temporary visas".  Not even when the place they fled becomes safe.   Why would they? 

Other than the fact that some of these people have pretty much nothing to return to, places like Dabaab have been open for so long that some people there probably have no real idea of Somalia.  I don't know.   But international law and norms in such matters have developed slowly and painfully, and I say they should be respected.
Total agreement. I used to know a Somali female, now in her mid-to-late twenties. She arrived in Kenya as a baby in her mother's arms, so she's not a citizen. I can't imagine the audacity of asking her to go back "home" to Somalia for whatever reason. The girl is Kenyan, whatever the legal rules may say. Her "ushagoo" is at the camp, but she herself had schooled, lived, worked in Nairobi with her siblings. I'm not sure if she was in the group that was "gathered" together and forced back into the camps in the exercise after West-gate. Repatriation should be 100% voluntary after a certain number of years have passed, IMHO. Omollo's point about the qualification for residency is a good standard. Refugees/Ex-Refugees who qualify for permanent residency must not be forcefully repatriated until they have exhausted the opportunities to gain the status or make it clear they are not interested in becoming permanently resident in Kenya.

As for safer conditions back home, I'm not sure about that at all. IS Somali safer? For how long? If one has ever witnessed an RSD interview, one is familiar with the fear asylum seekers harbor about conditions back home. Those who want to go back are easily assisted by IOM, but many would rather suffer here than go back. Remember IDPs refusing to go back to their land in RV and asking to be moved elsewhere and one totally understands why someone who has been through the traumatic events of war would prefer a camp in a dessert where they get food, school, a safe place to sleep, rather than moving back. I have a cousin who had lived in Kericho for nearly 20 years. She lost everything and moved to Kisii with her large family, where she had to start all over again with nothing but shelter and a small piece of land. Her life is very hard, but moving back to Kericho? Her family prefers the hard life. She herself bravely went back to see if she could recover some of the things she left behind and only found a strange woman wearing her dress, living in her house, cooking from her sufuria. She never returned.

About the camps, I think the problem is turning them into a PERMANENT residential "home" for refugees. From my perusal of the Refugee Act, I got the impression that the camps were intended as some sort of transit for new arrivals, before their status has been established. My opinion is that once refuges have been "cleared" after sometime at the camp, they ought to be allowed to move into the rest of the country, to find gainful employment and give back to the economy. I also think that a refugee who has turned into an economic migrant is no problem at all. They were forced here. Now that they have lived here, they have established some roots and some would rather not pack up again, uproot their families and return to start from scratch and no guarantees. That is something everyone can understand.
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Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Ruto Competes With Uhuru In Refusal To Use Head
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2015, 08:28:16 AM »
It would seem by forcefully displacing that many people UhuRuto back to unsafe Somalia against their will, they would officially be committing Crimes Against Humanity. Uhuru need to fires Prof Githu given he clearly doesn't advice him properly after being intimidated earlier during AngloLeasing.

I cannot remember the time when even Moi broke the law blatantly. These two jokers have broken so many laws, I am afraid for this country. If it wasn't sinking drugs in disregard of an express court order, it issuing fatwas here and there against local and international laws.

Kenya constitutions clear says any international law we have ratified (including on Refugees) is part of the our LAWS.

Pull out of Somalia..and we can live peacefully like we have lived with Somalis for last 20yrs...despite the wars in their country.

First we moved all refugees from major towns back to Daadab..and we are now trying to move them back to Somalia...next I guess we will have to move Kenyan Somalis to Somalia?

Or perhaps grant them a country in NEP. If we cannot handle them.

Offline Bella

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Re: Ruto Competes With Uhuru In Refusal To Use Head
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2015, 10:25:55 AM »
Quote
I also feel that if a country can accept a refugee on the basis of conditions in the home country, then it should have the same discretion to take away that refuge when it is no longer justified.   

That notion did exist at one time.   Two World Wars, and the Europeans had a serious re-think.    It is now largely, and partly on the basis of rather painful lessons, regarded as unacceptable.   A great deal of international laws and norms in such matters come from that early post-war periods over there, as well as the acceptance of certain standards on "human rights".  Not surprisingly, there is nowhere where  it is more difficult to kick out refugees than Europe.  And in places like Kenya there should not be any need to repeat lessons that have already been learned and codified into international law.
Indeed. I would just like to add to what you are saying by stating that mass/collective expulsion of aliens, that is, as a group, instead of on a case-by-case basis, is absolutely prohibited and contrary to international law standards and principles, not just as a human right standard (which it is) but as an inter-state duty/right that all states OWE to one another on a bilateral basis as part of customary international law. This refers to aliens/non-citizens in general, not just refugees and asylum-seekers. There is no country in this world that lacks the presence of groups of aliens within its own borders, or that does not have its own citizens living in groups in some other country. The modern world is becoming more and not less integrated. It is absolutely in everybody's interests to avoid acts of victimization of groups wherever/whoever they are.

Also, all in the international community understand/appreciate the concern Terminator raises...that is, you may indeed need to expel some people for your own safety. What is totally unacceptable is to carry out such expulsion on a collective basis. After centuries/decades of group-crimes of all sorts, humanity has finally come to the conclusion that the best way to prevent such injustices is to approach people as individuals and not as collectives. For example, it is not clear why exactly the Kenyan government would be incapable of fighting the actual terrorists/suspects at the camp directly. Why they need to violate such an important humanitarian principle as the one that requires all states, not just Kenya, not to force people back into an unstable environment that they fled eons ago, in order to fight those terrorists? If the arrangement at the camp is the problem, can it be sorted a different way? In any case, mass expulsion of refugees of ALL people, will be condemned universally and in the strongest terms. It will bring us the kind of ire and attention we do not need. We don't need to do it, anyway. Lets first make sure we are actually sorting the problem and not just reacting in a knee-jerk fashion.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline Bella

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Re: Ruto Competes With Uhuru In Refusal To Use Head
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2015, 10:46:49 AM »
It would seem by forcefully displacing that many people UhuRuto back to unsafe Somalia against their will, they would officially be committing Crimes Against Humanity. Uhuru need to fires Prof Githu given he clearly doesn't advice him properly after being intimidated earlier during AngloLeasing.

I cannot remember the time when even Moi broke the law blatantly. These two jokers have broken so many laws, I am afraid for this country. If it wasn't sinking drugs in disregard of an express court order, it issuing fatwas here and there against local and international laws.

Kenya constitutions clear says any international law we have ratified (including on Refugees) is part of the our LAWS.

Pull out of Somalia..and we can live peacefully like we have lived with Somalis for last 20yrs...despite the wars in their country.

First we moved all refugees from major towns back to Daadab..and we are now trying to move them back to Somalia...next I guess we will have to move Kenyan Somalis to Somalia?

Or perhaps grant them a country in NEP. If we cannot handle them.
I agree. It seems as if Githu only remembers to advise his bosses once they've done something and drawn unfavourable reactions from the public and other sectors. That's when he starts to try and sort things out.

The funny thing is that Jubilee doesn't even WANT to discuss the withdrawal from Somalia. They are already accusing people who suggest it of being Al-Shabaab allies. They say Kibaki and Raila chose to invade, why should CORD say no now? Well, if you make a mistake, does that stop you from changing course? We thought it was a grand idea. We were wrong. Why not give up like the USA did? When you realize you are in a hole, the first thing to do is to stop digging. We should let other countries situated safely away from Somalia take over KDF in the AU force. Then we can focus on our own borders and security.

We can start to slowly devolve internal security on a minimal basis. I think each county should have its own Recce-unit-of-sorts that can be deployed anywhere within the county in at most half an hour. If they need assistance, the neighbouring counties can send their own units as reinforcements. Each county should have its own security plan, a way of alerting its own residents of danger and places to avoid, upon receiving intelligence from the national security apparatus. Or a way to quickly secure vulnerable areas. The national govt has shown that it is not capable of protecting places only a short distance removed from Nairobi. Let the counties protect themselves and not rely on the central government whose hands have turned out to be too short to reach all of Kenya at once. I keep thinking, so far, these terrorists are attacking Nairobi or NEP...what will happen when start seeing Kisii, Migori, Kapenguria, Busia, Nyeri, on the news with scores shot dead? This country will be ground to a halt. The county governments can also make sure to pay and equip their own forces well, so that corruption within their forces will not be so much of a problem. Let the national security apparatus stick to co-ordinating inter-county security operations and border/entry points. With less burden, maybe they can pay their officers better and focus on their reduced tasks better. Anyway, just an idea.

KDF can be kept busy at the border areas....I hope to NEVER EVER see them anywhere near an internal security crisis. I consider them to be more of a problem than an aid. And they keep ensuring I see them that way with every new crisis.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Ruto Competes With Uhuru In Refusal To Use Head
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2015, 11:06:11 AM »
Githu is no Amos Wako. The soon Uhuru realizes this and go for someone who can read the law as it (not attempt to bend or break it) the better for his regime which is become a comedy of errors.

Yes Gov should at the very least devolve some aspect of security...like chicken thief. Gov should simply classify crimes..into national and local crimes....chicken thief should be handled by counties...terrorism and serious crimes by national gov.

Counties can hire goons with batons and rickety g3  to battle those petty criminals...including cattle thieves..like homeguard are doing now.

National gov definitely need help to handle security docket..and they can do that by allowing governors to pursue small time crimes, traffic management and such....that will leave national police and KDF really battling alshabaab.

Of course with rider that national gov will step in any time if need be.

I agree. It seems as if Githu only remembers to advise his bosses once they've done something and drawn unfavourable reactions from the public and other sectors. That's when he starts to try and sort things out.

The funny thing is that Jubilee doesn't even WANT to discuss the withdrawal from Somalia. They are already accusing people who suggest it of being Al-Shabaab allies. They say Kibaki and Raila chose to invade, why should CORD say no now? Well, if you make a mistake, does that stop you from changing course? We thought it was a grand idea. We were wrong. Why not give up like the USA did? When you realize you are in a hole, the first thing to do is to stop digging. We should let other countries situated safely away from Somalia take over KDF in the AU force. Then we can focus on our own borders and security.

We can start to slowly devolve internal security on a minimal basis. I think each county should have its own Recce-unit-of-sorts that can be deployed anywhere within the county in at most half an hour. If they need assistance, the neighbouring counties can send their own units as reinforcements. Each county should have its own security plan, a way of alerting its own residents of danger and places to avoid, upon receiving intelligence from the national security apparatus. Or a way to quickly secure vulnerable areas. The national govt has shown that it is not capable of protecting places a short distance removed from Nairobi. Let the counties protect themselves and not rely on the central government. The county governments can also make sure to pay and equip their own forces well, so that corruption will not be so much of a problem. Let the national security apparatus stick to co-ordinating inter-county security operations and border/entry points. With less burden, maybe they can pay their officers better and focus on their reduced tasks better. Anyway, just an idea.

KDF can be kept busy at the border areas....I hope to NEVER EVER see them anywhere near an internal security crisis. I consider them to be more of a problem than an aid. And they keep ensuring I see them that way with every new crisis.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Ruto Competes With Uhuru In Refusal To Use Head
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2015, 03:56:26 PM »
MOON Ki,

The hustler should follow due process and established rules.  Like you, I haven't seen any real complaint with meat about these camps yet. 

But it's not a foregone conclusion that the UNHCR will fully cooperate even if killers are in their midst.  Rules are great.  But at the end of the day, they are there to serve us, not the other way round.

I can't completely forget that UNHCR continued to give shelter and protection to interahamwe operatives who proceeded to carry out attacks in Rwanda and the surrounding region.  Until Kagame, a far from saintly figure himself, decided to close those camps himself.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

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Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Ruto Competes With Uhuru In Refusal To Use Head
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2015, 04:09:27 PM »
I have watched the Rwanda movie about Kagame mowing refugees on pretext that they were inter-hamwe. Most of folks Kagame killed were women and children..Hutus who had escaped. To this day..Kagame continue to exact his wicked form of revenge against Hutus in Congo.
I can't completely forget that UNHCR continued to give shelter and protection to interahamwe operatives who proceeded to carry out attacks in Rwanda and the surrounding region.  Until Kagame, a far from saintly figure himself, decided to close those camps himself.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Ruto Competes With Uhuru In Refusal To Use Head
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2015, 04:19:48 PM »
I have watched the Rwanda movie about Kagame mowing refugees on pretext that they were inter-hamwe. Most of folks Kagame killed were women and children..Hutus who had escaped. To this day..Kagame continue to exact his wicked form of revenge against Hutus in Congo.
I can't completely forget that UNHCR continued to give shelter and protection to interahamwe operatives who proceeded to carry out attacks in Rwanda and the surrounding region.  Until Kagame, a far from saintly figure himself, decided to close those camps himself.
Pundit,

There was some serious butchery at Kibeho an IDP camp specifically.  It was bad.  Shit had hit the fan.

But overall, it was more complicated than just that. 

The international camps in the Congo and Tz were controlled by interahamwe.  Refugees who wanted to leave and go back to Rwanda were intimidated, harassed, beaten, hacked to death... 

Nobody could leave without interahamwe's permission.  They were told they came together and they will go back together.  They had transplanted the same structures of interahamwe intact into those camps.  Even UNHCR staff were intimidated.



Most of those camps were emptied with minimal casualties, in that context.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

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Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Ruto Competes With Uhuru In Refusal To Use Head
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2015, 04:33:28 PM »
KDF can be kept busy at the border areas....I hope to NEVER EVER see them anywhere near an internal security crisis. I consider them to be more of a problem than an aid. And they keep ensuring I see them that way with every new crisis.

As long as they are on the other side of the border.    Their history shows that they pose a great danger to the welfare of Kenyans.  As we mourn the victims of the recent terror attack, let us not forget: 

* KDF slaughtering something like 5,000 civilians in the Wagalla Massacre.   From the TJRC report:

Quote
The Commission finds that the Wagalla Massacre, including the detention, torture and killing of the male members of the Degodia tribe at the airstrip, and the rapes, killing of livestock and burning of homes in the villages, was a systematic attack against a civilian population and thus qualifies as a crime against humanity.


* KDF in the  1980 Garissa Massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garissa_Massacre

* And they started well before that.   From the TJRC report on the Shifta War: 

Quote
The Military force committed mass killings, torture, sexual violence and rape against civilians. The police force, especially the General Service Unit, also committed violations of human rights.
...
The Military force is responsible for large-scale confiscation and killings of cattle, especially by poisoning of water sources, which killed both cattle and civilians. The owners of the cattle were never compensated for the loss, leaving many destitute.

And their history in other parts of Kenya is no better.
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Offline Bella

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Re: Ruto Competes With Uhuru In Refusal To Use Head
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2015, 05:27:31 PM »
MoonKi, there is no need to "pull out of Somalia" in order to stay in Somalia. KDF need to stay on Kenyan soil protecting our borders from incoming Kebabs. They can stay away from civilians, or better still, civilians can stay away from them. I don't mind moving civilians a little more to the interior.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline Bella

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Re: Ruto Competes With Uhuru In Refusal To Use Head
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2015, 05:34:37 PM »
I have watched the Rwanda movie about Kagame mowing refugees on pretext that they were inter-hamwe. Most of folks Kagame killed were women and children..Hutus who had escaped. To this day..Kagame continue to exact his wicked form of revenge against Hutus in Congo.
I can't completely forget that UNHCR continued to give shelter and protection to interahamwe operatives who proceeded to carry out attacks in Rwanda and the surrounding region.  Until Kagame, a far from saintly figure himself, decided to close those camps himself.
Indeed. And if the camps harbor groups like interahamwe, forcefull repatriation or expulsion of ALL the refugees is hardly the solution. We can disband the camps and seek a better arrangement or we can send more police to the camps. Moreover, Kagame did that when the refugees had a stable Rwanda to return to. I hardly think Somalia is in the same position. I'm not sure that government we are propping up can last two days without KDF.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Ruto Competes With Uhuru In Refusal To Use Head
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2015, 06:05:09 PM »
Closure of the camps should be a last option.  The immediate attention should be on corruption. 

It can clearly be demonstrated that corruption not only led to the possibiity of the Garissa slaughter, but it actually aggravated it.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

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Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Ruto Competes With Uhuru In Refusal To Use Head
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2015, 09:10:17 PM »
MoonKi, there is no need to "pull out of Somalia" in order to stay in Somalia. KDF need to stay on Kenyan soil protecting our borders from incoming Kebabs. They

That's exactly where I don't want them.   They can protect the borders, but they should do it from the Somali side.    Having them operate in Kenya presents to great a risk.   
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Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Ruto Competes With Uhuru In Refusal To Use Head
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2015, 09:31:22 PM »
Closure of the camps should be a last option.  The immediate attention should be on corruption. 

Exactly.   The pattern is that people stay in those camps only into they can buy  Kenyan papers.   So it's the last place where you will find would-be terrorists with any kind of resource.   As long as Kenyan authorities are open for business, chicken-style, the Kenya-Somalia border is similarly wide open.
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Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Ruto Competes With Uhuru In Refusal To Use Head
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2015, 12:06:13 AM »
Tongaren MP Eseli Simiyu joins the most-thoughtless-utterance competition:

Quote
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Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Ruto Competes With Uhuru In Refusal To Use Head
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2015, 06:35:10 PM »
There is some good medical news for Uhuru and Ruto.  They can upgrade if they can find a willing monkey:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/292306.php
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Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Ruto Competes With Uhuru In Refusal To Use Head
« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2015, 06:55:03 PM »
There is some good medical news for Uhuru and Ruto.  They can upgrade if they can find a willing monkey:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/292306.php
Hehehe...I think kamwana tops out at average and irresponsible.  He has not lived in a world where he has had to face consequences for his actions.

The hustler is the opposite.  He is bright and has had to earn everything the hard way; he knows how hard things can get. He is now between a hard place and a rock.

The head transplant is interesting.  I don't see anything that makes it impossible in principle.  When I get a chance I'll create a thread on that subject.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

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Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Ruto Competes With Uhuru In Refusal To Use Head
« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2015, 07:23:05 PM »
The head transplant is interesting.  I don't see anything that makes it impossible in principle.  When I get a chance I'll create a thread on that subject.

The Alcor Life Extension Foundation there in the USA foresaw that ages ago:

http://www.alcor.org/BecomeMember/scheduleA.html

Have been doing great business for over 40 years, freezing bodies (until technology catches gets good enough to reverse the process) or just the head (until a better body can be found).    I note that their costs have gone down substantially: US$ 200--220K for whole body and US$ 80-100K for just the head.

http://www.alcor.org/BecomeMember/scheduleA.html

I first became aware of them years ago when they got involved in an interesting and very serious legal case. In order to make sure that the frozen head was as "fresh" as possible, they had cut off the head of someone who wasn't yet totally dead (according to the coroner).    In court, they had an interesting line: yes, they had cut off the head and incinerated the body; but, no, the person wasn't really dead; she had merely undergone a "temporary suspension of life" until a new-and-improved body could be found for her ...

The fascinating part was in the testimonies of the heavy-duty "futuristic" scientists they lined up to confirm that the lady would one day be "actively alive" and so was not quite dead and definitely not dead in the sense that the law defined "death" ... but who knew when the "suspension" could be lifted ...
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Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Ruto Competes With Uhuru In Refusal To Use Head
« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2015, 07:53:52 PM »
UNHCR have warned UhuRuto of possible violation of international law and if I were them; I would listen keenly. Kagame has gone scot free given what went down in Rwanda but nobody else will be that lucky.

Offline MOON Ki

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